9/11 - Summary of What Happened and How it has Been Covered Up
Link here (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=51989.260#msg_636528968)
Alternative Knowledge Topic #1: Origin of "Conspiracy Theory"
Link here (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=53153.0)
Alternative Knowledge Topic #2: Wikipedia
Link here (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=53153.0)
I don't know why our great and powerful moderator keeps locking these threads.
QuoteOne conspiracy thread at a time is enough. If you want to offer these points as arguments, you can do so in the other thread.
That "other thread" is a cesspool of muddled-up information, which is why I wanted to start fresh.
And let's not forget the word "conspiracy (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=53153.0)" is CIA propaganda. Or did you miss that point completely, Snarky?
"A study of history shows that civilizations that abandon the quest for knowledge are doomed to disintegration." - Bernard Lovell, British astronomer and writer.
Let me preface this by humbly saying that I am by no means an expert on the controversial subjects that I'm attempting to bring to light. Conversely, I think it's safe to say that those participating in the discussion (if given a chance to do so) are no more an expert than I. I'll freely admit that I can be naive about some things and I don't know everything. However, we all have blind spots – everyone – and anyone claiming to "know better" is fooling themselves. The only way you can know ANYTHING and to have a constructive discussion is to talk about facts and evidence, with lesser emphasis on views, opinions, theories, and so forth. Talking about history is good but be wary that history is written by the winners and truths tend to get buried. Arnold Rimmer from Red Dwarf alludes to this point here.
I am in the process of learning (or re-learning as the case may be) and posing here not just to share information but also to consolidate my own understanding of ideas and issues. I'm not trying to be a guru or anything like that, and I hate being in the spotlight, but I guess I've taken on this role because I feel it's important. The world as I see it now is one of complexity and deception on a scale like we've never seen before. I was born in the early 80s and therefore did not really experience the end of the Cold War (I was only 6 years old when the Berlin Wall fell). Growing up in the 90s, the concept of war seemed like distant history - a thing of the past, not the present. To be fair, I was aware of war on some level as one my earliest friends was from Lebanon and had experienced war as a child before his family relocated to Australia. But other than stories from abroad, life in Australia was pretty sheltered. I'm telling you this to give you an idea of my background and level of experience and knowledge. Those who live abroad (particularly those in non-Western countries) may have a better idea or at least a different perspective on some of these issues.
Alternative Knowledge Topic #3 Ideological Subversion
"Russia is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma." - Winston Churchill
Continuing with the theme of intellectual terrorism, the role of intelligence agencies comes into question. How much do you know about them? Bear in mind it might be a skewed perception of what they actually do. It gets even more complicated when you consider that individuals within the intelligence agencies themselves might not even be aware of the full picture. The idea of disinformation and double-agents adds yet another dimension to the tangled web of intelligence. But before we get too excited and start thinking about potential adventure game plots, let's attempt to separate fact from fiction.
One thing that you may not know about the KGB was its role and primary function relating to psychological warfare during the Cold War. According to former Soviet agent Yuri Bezmenov, only 15% of the KGB's time, money and manpower was devoted to espionage and covert activity, the type typically glorified by Hollywood in the form of James Bond-style flicks. In actuality most of the KGB's resources (the remaining 85%) was spent on a four-step process called "Ideological Subversion".
According to Bezmenov, the aim of Ideological Subversion was to change the perception of reality to such an extent that, despite an abundance of information, no one is able to come to sensible conclusions in the interests of defending themselves, their family, their community and their country. The goal was to weaken a country, strip its culture and corrupt their values to a point of complete vulnerability. It's a great brainwashing process that goes very slow.
1. The longer version of the interview in which Bezmenov talks about his life working for the KGB in India and how he escaped / defected to Canada (here) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3qkf3bajd4). 2. A 1983 lecture on subversion to an American audience (here) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fQoGMtE0EY).
Whether you accept this guy as legitimate / relevant or not, he does present some compelling ideas and should make you wonder if subversion currently infiltrates Western society. I would argue that it is does, quite blatantly, and it is not necessarily the Soviets or any one group pulling the strings.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Sat 06/02/2016 13:24:26
The agenda of this film is clearly based on the recently resurrected "red menace" narrative. Propaganda and fear generation of this type is the only authentic form of terrorism that is being perpetrated on the western world.
Even so, I recognise some parts of the described process as true, from my own experience. For instance, Demoralisation: It's a simple and easily verifiable fact that by far most countries have a privately operated central bank which creates currency from thin air, then lends this currency to the government and the people with interest. Because the only source of currency comes with interest, this creates an ever-growing debt which can never be repaid. Most people believe that their central bank is part of the government. Why do they believe this? They do not know. Someone told them this, they know not who or when. That's propaganda.
The fact is that the governments, like the public do indirectly, regularly lends the money they need to operate from the central bank. The taxes that the government collects are not used for government operations, but to service the debt that is created by this form of currency creation. The profits for this operation goes to the owners of the central banks, which are invariably private banks. All of this is verifiable via wikipedia or the mainstream media. When you're telling someone this, after providing these WP/MSM links as if feeding an infant, they will say: "What is the problem? This is just how finance works." That is demoralisation. In other words "the facts tell nothing to him."
The word comes through French from the Latin conspirationem (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=conspiracy), which means: "agreement, union, unanimity"
It's the phrase "conspiracy theory" which has been implanted to so effectively cause people's brains to jump to holograms and UFOs when they sense anything that fits this category. Implanted how? Ask Dr. Judy and Alex Jones. They are doing the implanting.
We don't have to wonder or discuss whether the western world's culture has been/is being subverted by propaganda. Here comes the airplane! Open the hangar! Bzzzzzoooowww!
Operation Mockingbird (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird): "Operation Mockingbird was a secret campaign by the United States Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) to influence media. Begun in the 1950s, it was initially organized by Cord Meyer and Allen W. Dulles, and was later led by Frank Wisner after Dulles became the head of the CIA. The organization recruited leading American journalists into a network to help present the CIA's views, and funded some student and cultural organizations, and magazines as fronts. As it developed, it also worked to influence foreign media and political campaigns, in addition to activities by other operating units of the CIA."
Revealed: US spy operation that manipulates social media (http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-operation-social-networks) (The Guardian)
How the spooks took over the news (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/media/how-the-spooks-took-over-the-news-780672.html) (Independent)
The CIA's Mop-Up Man: L.A. Times Reporter Cleared Stories With Agency Before Publication (https://theintercept.com/2014/09/04/former-l-times-reporter-cleared-stories-cia-publication/) (The Intercept)
Quote from: Yuri BezmenovWhen a military boot crushes his--THEN he will understand. But not before. That's the tragic of the situation of demoralisation.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: SilverSpook on Sun 07/02/2016 20:47:57
What's interesting about the Bernie Sanders campaign is he's making most of the Alex Jones talking points that were "Conspiracy Theory" fifteen years ago. New World Order cabal of billionaires, Global banking cartel controlling America and basically 1% being bastards and destroying the health, income, and lives of the rest for profit. Except this guy is neck-and-neck for the Democratic Party's Presidential ticket with Empress Hillary Clinton.
It's nice to see that the alternative truth is becoming the mainstream truth. It's telling when Goldman Sachs CEO Lloyd Blankfein calls Sanders, "A dangerous man" and "A threat to us all" (subtext: he's going to pull a Louis XIV on our* financial, if not literal heads).
*The Royal "Our" - as in the Kingdom of Wall St.
I'm right now listening to CNN smokescreen on about Sanders lack of experience warmongering in the Middle East and other bullshit quibbles, and it's hilarious. Still waiting on the million-dollar war-chest contribution from Goldman Sachs for Hillary giving a pep talk to the Wolves of Wall Street. Lol.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: monkey424 on Sat 05/03/2016 05:38:10
Thanks Jack Lucy and SilverSpook for contributing.
Just a quick note on Alex Jones. I did mention him in an earlier post. Snippet here:
People may be familiar with alternative media personality Alex Jones. He is well known for sensationalising conspiracy theories with his special blend of hysteria and salesman like rapid-fire speech. He will cover most conspiracy stuff, but will avoid Dr Wood's work like the plague! He won't acknowledge her work and becomes irritated when anyone tries to bring it up on his radio show. This audio clip is most revealing (here) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXYcdAe1Fzk). And this one (here) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OP65E3I4fD8).
[close]
Also, the topic Jack raised concerning central banks and perpetual debt is of particularly importance and interest (no pun intended) and I was actually planning it for a future post.
But for now, the next topic I want to cover relates to the last one on subversion; specifically media subversion. Media of course now comes in a variety of forms and flavours, but the mainstream media will always attract the largest audience. It should come as no surprise that mainstream media, and even alternative media to some extent, is a monopolised and controlled entity.
I know from personal experience in China that mainstream media is controlled and conditioned for a mainstream audience. Alternative news is virtually inaccessible (for both natives and foreigners). YouTube, Wikipedia and Facebook are all blocked. One thing that my Chinese father-in-law tends to do when visiting Australia is to access online information that he can't in China. In regards to information access, the West in comparison appears to be the opposite; we have a dizzying abundance of information rather that a lack thereof. The mainstream is still controlled (perhaps more subtlety) but alternative news is equally compromised, existing as a minefield of information that only a few will attempt to navigate to sort the good info from the bad (the latter comprising disinformation and propaganda, deliberate or otherwise).
Alternative Knowledge Topic #4 Buried by Mainstream Media: The True Story of Madeleine McCann
A series of documentaries made by independent researcher Richard D Hall examines the facts and evidence surrounding the tragic story of Madeline McCann, the child allegedly kidnapped in Praia da Luz, Portugal. Those in Portugal may be more aware of the alternative narrative of the Madeleine McCann case, which is certainly not what UK (Western) mainstream media has told us. Not only does Richard D Hall expose mainstream media for what they really are - propagandists - but he also reveals who is controlling mainstream media and their connection to an overarching hierarchy involving the UK government and intelligence agencies.
(View full documentary here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PltuL0ICkzs)).
1. The Initial Storm
The first film revisits the scene of the crime, the holiday apartment in Praia da Luz, where Madeline was allegedly kidnaped. Many anomalies of the case are highlighted, including a highly suspicious crime scene, improbable and contradictory statements from the MaCann's and their friends, as well as changing stories relating to their account of events. This led the local Portuguese police to initially conclude that the whole event was fabricated. The film focuses on the swift reaction of UK mainstream media and identifies a central figure, Clarence Mitchell, as being instrumental in media manipulation and control over the issue.
2. Dogs Don't Lie
The second film covers some of the most compelling evidence of the case. The Portuguese authorities engaged expert sniffer dog handler, Martin Grime, to deploy two sniffer dogs in the Praia da Luz holiday apartment. One dog was trained to detect the former presence of a corpse; the other the presence of blood. The dogs respectively detected the smell of a corpse and blood in several locations in the apartment, as well as on clothing and belongings, and even in the boot of the MaCann's hired car.
3. Private Investigations
The third film delves deeper into the organised cover-up of the incident, of which Clarence Mitchell was instrumental as mentioned earlier. We are also introduced to other key individuals and their role in facilitating the cover-up, partly through the use of dodgy private investigation agencies. A tangled web of diversion and lies is unravelled, one bogus story after another.
4. Government Agents
The forth film continues exposing the increasingly bizarre cover-up which, as inexplicable as it may sound, ultimately ties to UK government and intelligence involvement. One may roll their eyes and wonder why on Earth government agencies would be involved with what should have essentially been a foreign affair, like many similar incidents no doubt are and remain so. The reason for the high level cover-up is not clear, and the film does not attempt to provide a definitive reason beyond stating that one must exist. However, the film does allude to a possible link to paedophilia, something evidence points to intelligence agencies being involved with as a tool of manipulation.
(Documentary here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dL0-ePd3FCU)).
This supplementary documentary made by Hall addresses the alleged kidnapping scenario. Numerous sightings of a man were reported to the police on different dates following Madeline MaCann's disappearance. This film examines the credibility of these sightings by looking at police witness statements, media reports and other evidence. After a thorough and extensive examination of all this evidence, the most likely conclusion is laid bare for all to see.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Danvzare on Sat 05/03/2016 10:38:37
Ah, the Madeleine McCann case. I remember when that first came on the news. My first thought was "the parents did it", and my only reason for such a thought, was because they weren't upset. Parents (at least one of them) are always upset years after such a traumatic event. A few days after such an event, you can bet that they'd be crying.
Many years later, I eventually looked into it, and guess what I found. So much damn evidence pointing to them. As a matter of fact, almost everyone in Britain thinks they did it! (Or at least everyone I've ever talked to.)
Still, it's always interesting to hear about it.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Retro Wolf on Sat 05/03/2016 20:35:45
@Danvzare If one of my kids were kidnapped I'd be absolutely destroyed.
We've had the whole Madeleine McCann story shoved in our faces for years in the UK, It's died down recently but after such a long time I doubt we'll ever found out what happened to her.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: miguel on Sat 05/03/2016 23:51:15
I live 30 minutes from Praia da luz and the MCann case is very clear now as it was from the beginning. Not that I know things that nobody knows but we're talking about a small village where everyone knows everyone. The man in charge of the case was put away as soon as British detectives came into play. Why? Because he soon found that the parents could be guilty, he was not sure but tried to investigate further. If you ask any Portuguese they will tell you that the girl wasn't kidnapped. Sadly I believe it was a case of a dramatic accident involving the girl who died because of it. I am sure the parents were excellent parents... Until the accident, better said, right after the accident. It takes guts to call the police and admit you have hurt your daughter. They didn't have it. The political implications that put Portuguese authorities against the wall fearing British retaliations allowed Scotland Yard to completely overrun our investigation and the result is equal to zero. Rip Madeleine.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Ali on Sun 06/03/2016 00:50:16
There's a reason we think like this. It makes it easier on us, because we don't have to empathise with parents who've lost a daughter. If they did it, they're not victims, they're guilty. How convenient! It's the same with so many half-baked conspiracy theories - sorry cases of 'alternative knowledge'. They are like superstitions, ways of achieving a sense that we can understand and maybe control confusing reality. They also reveal our paranoias and prejudices. How far do you have to walk down any of these avenues before a Zionist cabal pops up? Not far.
I don't know what happened to Madeleine McCann, or exactly what happened at the Boston Bombings, 7/7 or 9/11. It's interesting to speculate about 9/11, and that's because it means we don't have to think about all the people who burned to death.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Danvzare on Sun 06/03/2016 10:53:59
There's a reason we think like this. It makes it easier on us
You make it sound like I actually care about what happened to that little girl. I really don't. My reasoning for thinking the way I did, was more out of a disconnected sense of reality, where I merely saw a mystery to be solved. Much like on a TV Show. I really don't care about what happens to other people, so long as it doesn't affect me (either directly or indirectly). Yeah, I'm selfish. But at least I acknowledge it.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Calin Leafshade on Mon 07/03/2016 10:19:51
There's a reason we think like this. It makes it easier on us
You make it sound like I actually care about what happened to that little girl. I really don't. My reasoning for thinking the way I did, was more out of a disconnected sense of reality, where I merely saw a mystery to be solved. Much like on a TV Show. I really don't care about what happens to other people, so long as it doesn't affect me (either directly or indirectly). Yeah, I'm selfish. But at least I acknowledge it.
What you have said here makes me very curious and I must ask a few questions:
(A) Are you trolling?
If not then:
(B) Do you think that these are only your own personal feelings or that everyone feels this way?
(C) If the former then: You probably already realise that you might have a condition called "Sociopathy" Spoiler
QuoteSociopaths are interested only in their personal needs and desires, without concern for the effects of their behavior on others.
[close]
(D) If the latter then how can you possibly trust any other person and/or form any kind of friendship or relationship while believing that the person in question cares in no way about your well-being unless your well-being benefits them in some material way?
(E) In either case, doesn't such an outlook make you feel very isolated and lonely?
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Danvzare on Mon 07/03/2016 17:13:16
Nope, I'm not trolling.
I don't think everyone feels the way I do. After all, what Ali said about it making it easier on us, is generally true of most people.
I really don't think I'm a sociopath. My reason being is because I care about my friends and family. Because as I said, I only care about things that affect me either directly or indirectly. If some guy I don't know gets murdered, I don't care. But if my mother's friend (who I don't know) gets murdered, I care, not because it affects me directly, but because it affects me indirectly through my mother. I feel happy when people I care about are happy, so I try my best to make them happy, unless it's at the cost of my own happiness, in which case it depends on whether seeing them happy would leave me happier in the long term than not doing whatever the task was.
And does it make me feel isolated and lonely? Heck no. How is not caring about someone who I never met and probably would have never met, going to isolate me?
And now I've just realized I wrote that I don't care about what happens to other people... I should have written that I don't care about what happens to other people I don't know. Damn... Well, I guess that's what you get for not being specific enough.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Mandle on Mon 07/03/2016 23:13:06
Quote from: Danvzare on Mon 07/03/2016 17:13:16 And now I've just realized I wrote that I don't care about what happens to other people... I should have written that I don't care about what happens to other people I don't know.
Yup, that would be the bit that knocks you back down from a sociopath to just a 21-year-old... :P
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: LimpingFish on Tue 08/03/2016 03:02:53
Empathy can be funny like that. It's nothing out of the ordinary.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Monsieur OUXX on Tue 08/03/2016 15:41:09
Back on-topic: the very basics of conspirational thought is to pay attention to insignificant details while ignoring the big picture, hence producing goofy theories. This thought justifies itself by the fact that "curiosity is good" (which is true), that "it's small details that produce the big result" (which is also true), and that "in the past there have been cases where nobody was believing the outsiders but they were right in the end" (yes, all of that is true)
BUT
it's too vague. One cannot justify their claims with vague assumptions like "what if I was right? It's possible that I'm right. Once a thinker said that I must continue my search for truth as long as there's even just 1% chances that there is a mistake". Yes. But not if you ignore the big picture.
As a well-known example: "jet fuel cannot melt steel beams". Well yes it's true. Rock solid truth. It seems to be that small detail that invalidates official investigations on the plane crashes. And then someone will build a whole theory around this hard fact: they imagine that maybe it was all faked by some higher intelligence. ...EXCEPT they're ignoring the big picture. They'r eignoring that steel doesn't need to reach its point of fusion (to melt entirely) to start bending. Far from it. In other words: they focus only on the tiny details that confort their goofy thories and don't search for the relevant details.
What I really can't stand with that sort of thinking is that it's undermining the whole principle of scientific thinking while sounding like it's strictly following it. That sort of flawed scientific thinking says that the researcher must not omit any detail. Well yes, that's true. Scientific thinking is fundamental. But don't forget that in real life, you never have all the data. You must constantly infere some truths. You cannot start an experiment thinking "OK, but what if we're in the Matrix and none of this is real?" No. You must admit that ... reality is real. In other words: you must cut the bullshit and sort out the facts. If you don't have this skill then... It's sad but you're not capable of critical thinking.
========
PS: If you haven't read the book "Foucault's pendulum", then it's a perfect example of what I'm describing. The whole book is a made up story of a guy who's a specialist of medieval symbols (starts a bit like Da Vinci Code). The book shows how all the symbols in history are connected (because, well.. a triangle shape stays a triangle shape. In other words: it doesn't mean that everyone who uses a tiangle shape is connected to the previous guy who did the same 100 years before). But the twist of the story is that, in the end, it turns out that all the symbols are actualy connected. That there is a secret society throughout history who actually does use these shapes on purpose, and they have a meaning. My point is: every normal person understands that this book is a story. It's just the author having fun, using his knowledge of symbols. But I've seen people who actually believe all these things, and who think that the author was trying to prove them!!!
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: monkey424 on Sat 02/04/2016 11:41:49
Did anyone watch any of the Madeleine McCann documentaries? The point of the documentaries is not so much to know what happened to Madeleine, but to expose the mainstream media for what they really are - nothing more than propagandists, feeding lies and disinformation to the public and ultimately confusing the whole issue so no one knows what to believe! The documentaries look at the facts and evidence of the case, basically nothing you would have heard about in mainstream news (unless you live in Portugal perhaps).
First of all, there's nothing wrong with "conspirational thought". Conspiracies (as in the false-flag / naughty-government type) have happened in the past, which allows us to project that they can happen in the future. That's right - you are allowed to think like this. But be wary – as I've highlighted previously, there is an active effort by the powers that be (let's call them the military-industrial-intelligence-media complex) to not only ridicule conspiracy theories but to create them in the first place! It's a type of subversion.
Take 9/11 for example. There is a truth to 9/11, and it's certainly not what we have been told by the lying mainstream media or so-called experts. The official mainstream story falls apart so easily – one most glaringly obvious thing is the lack of a conventional explanation (with classical physics) by any academic, professional or government representative for how the twin towers disintegrated in about 10 seconds on 9/11. The NIST report does not address this, nor any other official U.S. government report. In addition to this, we have controlled opposition. This is an active effort by certain individuals whose agenda to supress and distort 9/11 truth by diverting our attention away from evidence and instead focusing on insignificant details and ridiculous theories that are easily dismissed or disproved (individuals such as Richard Gage, Steven E Jones, Niels Harrit, Jim Fetzer, Dimitri Khalezov, etc). See my previous posting here (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=51989.260#msg_636528968).
So what is the truth? Fortunately, for 9/11, it is KNOWN – and is available for those who want to know it. It's an unpopular and ugly truth, but truth none the less, and supported by a shitload of evidence!
This thread is about knowledge. Not speculation, emotional reasoning or theories. Just facts and evidence.
That man was Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral, who wrote a book about the incident. I believe the book has been translated into several other languages – except English. Here's a website on Amaral:
(New documentary here (https://youtu.be/Dwv_UhqoI60)).
This is the sixth doco in the series, just recently uploaded to YouTube.
The past presence of a human corpse was detected in the McCanns' apartment and in many other places associated with the McCanns by highly trained police sniffer dogs. This clue suggests that Madeleine may have died and her body lain in the apartment for a period of time. Assuming this is correct, what date and time did Madeleine die? The most logical way to address this question is to go back in time to determine the last piece of credible evidence which proves Madeleine was alive. This film attempts to do this by forensically examining witness statements, photographs, physical evidence, police reports and media reports. In doing so the film exposes the agenda of the mainstream media which has, on the whole, helped to cover up the truth about the Madeleine McCann case.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Danvzare on Sat 02/04/2016 14:38:54
Quote from: monkey424 on Sat 02/04/2016 11:41:49 Take 9/11 for example. There is a truth to 9/11, and it's certainly not what we have been told by the lying mainstream media or so-called experts. The official mainstream story falls apart so easily â€" one most glaringly obvious thing is the lack of a conventional explanation (with classical physics) by any academic, professional or government representative for how the twin towers disintegrated in about 10 seconds on 9/11. The NIST report does not address this, nor any other official U.S. government report. In addition to this, we have controlled opposition. This is an active effort by certain individuals whose agenda to supress and distort 9/11 truth by diverting our attention away from evidence and instead focusing on insignificant details and ridiculous theories that are easily dismissed or disproved (individuals such as Richard Gage, Steven E Jones, Niels Harrit, Jim Fetzer, Dimitri Khalezov, etc). See my previous posting here (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=51989.260#msg_636528968).
So what is the truth? Fortunately, for 9/11, it is KNOWN â€" and is available for those who want to know it. It's an unpopular and ugly truth, but truth none the less, and supported by a shitload of evidence!
So what's this truth about 9/11 then? Because looking on the internet will only ever find me stupid theories such as "It was an inside job!" and "Jet fuel can't melt metal beams!"
So what's the truth then? That the building wasn't built to code? That a jet liner smashing into a building whose outside is mostly glass, will result in it collapsing almost instantly? That the government knew terrorists were going to steal a jet liner and crash into that building, so they intentionally placed bombs inside the building to create mass hysteria, just so they could have more security in airports?
You know what I think the truth is. The media did it, so that they could rake in a fortune by never shutting up about it. (laugh)
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Mandle on Sat 02/04/2016 16:03:43
What kinds of masterminds of conspiracy are these people that can pull off these amazing feats of worldwide deception and yet be exposed by anyone with internet access?
Or if, monkey, your point is that the media often spins the news according to its own or the government's agenda then:
DUUUUUH!!!
Of course it does. Still doesn't mean there is some master plan behind the whole deal... It's just humans doing what they do best: Condensing an insanely complex world into easily digestable myths we can read over our morning coffee and think of as real.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: miguel on Sun 03/04/2016 10:04:29
Good morning folks, Wise man Mandle talks about myths and how they are still embedded in our lives. Well the media are the ones who construct myth in a organised way for the global population, they are the immediate scribes of our time. And frankly are not responsible or to blame for the accuracy of the facts. Does this sound controversial? Yes in the rush of a front page they can be irresponsible but that's the price we pay for liberty. Filtering content is something we should all be doing and while at it try not to fall on the same rushed mistakes the original message brought. The MCann case is as old a tale as any pulp novel could be, it has all the right ingredients and stereotypical characters like the high- mid -class doctors family with their friends spending holidays in the sunny south, the lone wolf detective, the low profile village, the Scotland Yard and even a hint of a diplomatic incident. Because we know, better, because we have it engraved in our group conscience how to use this information it becomes natural to format opinions that are most likely already been written many times before. We tell the same tale again and again.
Therefore my opinion is doomed to stay on a Internet blog if I had one, although like I said on my previous post, the general Portuguese and specially local opinion is that the events that lead to the poor girl dying were baffled by the status of the family. How much "influence" can some British doctors have over a until -that -point credible institution like the Judicial Police is something a little scary for me, but thats my personal opinion.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Khris on Sun 03/04/2016 22:52:43
If you can stomach the TRUTHâ,,¢, read on.
What follows is a conspiracy hypothesis (I'm using the scientific term here) I have developed after reading countless posts about 9/11 and other events on the internet: Conspiracy "theorists" are actually government disinformation agents who spread ridiculous stories in order to distract people from the actual conspiracies. The intention is to bore people to tears as much as possible (while quote-mining actual rational thinkers) until they're so jaded they just reject any conspiracy talk out of hand and become full-fledged mainstream sheep.
Since my hypothesis is internally consistent and unfalsifiable, it's pretty much 100% true.*
*Nope.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: NickyNyce on Mon 04/04/2016 00:25:06
The funny thing is, if you write and sell a book about it, some of these conspiracy theorists would still buy it.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Mandle on Mon 04/04/2016 07:40:21
What follows is a conspiracy hypothesis (I'm using the scientific term here) I have developed after reading countless posts about 9/11 and other events on the internet: Conspiracy "theorists" are actually government disinformation agents who spread ridiculous stories in order to distract people from the actual conspiracies. The intention is to bore people to tears as much as possible (while quote-mining actual rational thinkers) until they're so jaded they just reject any conspiracy talk out of hand and become full-fledged mainstream sheep.
Since my hypothesis is internally consistent and unfalsifiable, it's pretty much 100% true.*
*Nope.
The funny thing is, that actually sounds more plausible than more conspiracy theories.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Tue 05/04/2016 20:16:34
A Brief Analysis of Prejudicial Thinking as it Relates to Conspiracy Theory
Encapsulation of ideas is a function of the mind which enables consciousness to occur within the variable limits of a brain. In other words, it allows thinking to occur at the various levels that a brain may be capable of storing information. Here are examples of the two extremes of the idea encapsulation spectrum:
The first theoretical person only has space for 3 ideas in his head: The hammer is the only tool to use for fixing and breaking things alike. The only thing worth doing is watching football. The only good people are the ones who have the same skin colour, football team, tool preferences. This person probably doesn't exist, but apparently we're all descended from him.
The second has a theoretically unlimited capacity to store information, and his understanding of ideas is a completely accurate representation of the information available to him. Since any one idea is so detailed and therefore so unique, no two provide a convincing basis for comparison, and he therefore he has no opinions on anything. This person also probably doesn't exist, but is the naive goal of some transhumanists. In fact he's just as useless as the other extreme.
All of us lie somewhere on this spectrum. The limits could be natural, or artificial. An example of a self-imposed overuse of encapsulation is an old man who has decided that it's impossible for him to learn anything about computers, and so doesn't try, and so doesn't learn anything. It is a well-accepted idea that such lack of mental plasticity, be it natural or artificial, is the cause of prejudicial thinking. The misanthrope has encapsulated the idea of people, and believes that all people are bad. His counterpart has done the same, but believes all people are good. They're both morons.
These fundamental forms and limitations of thinking tend to expose themselves through the output of a person so affected. From the quote "The only good rooskie is a dead rooskie," it's clear that this person believes that all Russians are the same. So here we finally come to how this well-acknowledged behaviour pertains to the cultural taboo known as conspiracy theory:
Meet Fah Knut and Fah Khehd. Fah Knut has never looked into the assassination of JFK aside from incidental exposure, but he knows that no conspiracy was involved and the magic bullet theory is 100% factual, because conspiracy theorists are all a bunch of UFO-chasing nutters. Fah Khehd on the other hand will believe practically any conspiracy theory he reads, and the only fact checking he cares about is whether he liked the theory being presented. You may have guessed it. They're both prejudiced morons.
These belief systems too are exposed by content, for example:
You mention there's a petition signed by over two thousand accredited architects and engineers, questioning the validity of the non-peer-reviewed and covered-up scientific study which is used by the government as the official explanation of 9/11. To express this information, providing no interpretation or comment, is the totality of what you wrote. Fah Knut's reply? "Ooh, I bet the aliens helped them cover it up!"
That was a bad day. 52% of Fah Knut's already strained mental resources were taken up by a particularly poignant my little pony fan video. Let's give him another shot:
You drop the mic like this: 7 Reasons 9/11 Could NOT Have Been An Inside Job (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2016/04/8-reasons-911-not-inside-job.html) Yes, a good percentage of those linked right back to mainstream media sources, but Fah Knut's reply? "A blog? Wow, what a credible source"
Fah Knut would be filled with glee to hear that I used to think these people were shills when I saw them around the internet. I couldn't believe that a person capable of using a keyboard could so poorly understand what they were replying to, that they could be utterly dismissive about it. I thought someone paid them to act this way. Now it seems obvious that they're just morons being prejudiced in a culturally acceptable way, because they have the added handicap of having no guts.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Khris on Tue 05/04/2016 20:42:05
Did you just call me a gutless moron?
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Tue 05/04/2016 21:16:37
The crown of Fah Knut cannot be given, it must be claimed. Congratulations. May your reign be fraught with peril.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Khris on Tue 05/04/2016 21:59:09
I also conducted a brief analysis, and it resulted in my thinking you'll probably be very interested in this:
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Tue 05/04/2016 22:30:33
Yes, excellent example.
Anyway.
The Panama Papers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama_Papers), eh?
There's Chinese new year. Does that mean there's truther Christmas?
Quote from: WikipediaThe Panama Papers are a leaked set of 11.5 million confidential documents that provide detailed information on more than 214,000 offshore companies listed by the Panamanian corporate service provider Mossack Fonseca, including the identities of shareholders and directors of said offshore companies. The documents identify (as directors and shareholders of such companies) current government leaders from five countries â€" Argentina, Iceland, Saudi Arabia, Ukraine, and the United Arab Emirates â€" as well as government officials, close relatives, and close associates of various heads of government of more than 40 other countries, including Brazil, China, Peru, France, India, Malaysia, Mexico, Pakistan, Romania, Russia, South Africa, Spain, Syria, and the United Kingdom. On 5 April, the Prime Minister of Iceland Sigmundur DavÃð Gunnlaugsson announced his resignation following the scandal.
Comprising documents created since the 1970s that amount to 2.6 terabytes of data, the papers were supplied to the Süddeutsche Zeitung in August 2015 by an anonymous source, and subsequently to the U.S.-based International Consortium of Investigative Journalists (ICIJ). The papers were distributed to and analyzed by about 400 journalists at 107 media organizations in more than 80 countries.
The first news reports based on the set, along with 149 of the documents themselves, were published on 3 April 2016, and a full list of companies is to be released in early May 2016.
As a citizen of South Africa, recognised as the second most corrupt country on earth, this fills me with joy.
Also,
SUCK IT, CAMERON!
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: miguel on Wed 20/04/2016 00:46:58
Just for the record and it doesn't really mean that I'm trying to change anybody's point of view, but regarding the McCann case - Gonçalo Amaral (the detective that was put into disgrace when trying to investigate) was considered not guilty of all charges. The McCann's plan to appeal.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: monkey424 on Sun 24/04/2016 02:00:51
Danvzare
"So what's this truth about 9/11 then?"
In summary: the towers didn't burn up, nor did they slam to the ground; they turned into dust in mid-air. Episode 3 of Adam Dywer's "Irrefutable" series illustrates this pretty well, here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2IMiQzFu6I&list=PL_cJ8k_C3XEWi9IrA7dKse0vo8SE6J1oJ&index=4).
Also, see my final post on the matter, here (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=51989.260#msg_636528968).
---
Mandle
"The media often spins the news according to its own or the government's agenda... DUUUUUH!!!"
So you know this - fine.
"Still doesn't mean there is some master plan behind the whole deal".
Perhaps.
---
Khris
You're getting your information from RationalWiki? God help you! I've already pointed out that the phrase "conspiracy theory" was popularised / weaponised by the CIA, and Wikipedia is controlled / biased. RationalWiki is fucking a joke! Its content is actually quite infantile.
---
Jack & Miguel
Thanks for your contribution.
---
Madeleine McCann
As Miguel pointed out, detective Gonçalo Amaral has just recently won an appeal against the McCanns' libel claims.
If you have not viewed any of the documentaries I have posted yet (link back to page here (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=53210.0#msg_636531316)) then at least remember who this guy is:
In summary: the towers didn't burn up, nor did they slam to the ground; they turned into dust in mid-air. Episode 3 of Adam Dywer's "Irrefutable" series illustrates this pretty well, here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2IMiQzFu6I&list=PL_cJ8k_C3XEWi9IrA7dKse0vo8SE6J1oJ&index=4).
Also, see my final post on the matter, here (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=51989.260#msg_636528968).
Blah blah blah, dust, blah blah blah. Seriously, why can't you just get to the point in those links you gave me? Can't you just say from the get go, that you think someone just shot a disintegrator ray at the damn things, rather than just shoving all of this stupid "evidence" in my face. It's like I'm reading one of those "One weird and crazy way to lose weight" ads. Just say it, and stop beating around the bush.
By the way, that's a stupid hypothesis. That's right, it doesn't even deserve to be called a theory.
Next thing you know, you'll be telling me that chem trails alter your mind, the president is a lizard, the pyramids were built by aliens to dock their spaceships, and that the Area 51 incident did involve aliens.
If you ever want to know if a conspiracy theory is true, you just need to remember three simple little facts. 1st: All governments are incompetent. 2nd: Humans have always done and will always continue to do extremely impressive (but incredibly stupid) feats. 3rd: Nothing stays a secret for long.
If there was something like this out there, I'm sure we'd know about it. After all, if the goverment were this good at covering this up, then they definitely would have hidden nuclear bombs for a lot longer, and probably would have covered up any attempts to use them as well.
One last thing. There is one major piece of evidence that contradicts this theory. Someone survived the so called "blast". If it had disintergrated everything, then how the hell could anyone have survived it. Unless! Gasp, he was an ALIEN!!! It all makes so much sense now. (laugh)
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Crimson Wizard on Sun 24/04/2016 16:01:57
Danvzare, you probably was not around here at the time we did attempt to discuss the disintegrator ray :): http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=51989.0
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Khris on Sun 24/04/2016 23:58:07
Quote from: monkey424 on Sun 24/04/2016 02:00:51You're getting your information from RationalWiki? God help you! I've already pointed out that the phrase “conspiracy theory†was popularised / weaponised by the CIA, and Wikipedia is controlled / biased. RationalWiki is fucking a joke! Its content is actually quite infantile.
Are you saying I can't pick random stuff that random dudes put online to back up my claims? I thought that's all we're doing in this thread. You'll also note that I linked to their definition of quote-mining. Are you saying that RationalWiki's explanation about what quote-mining is is actually misinformation planted by the government?
Also, Wikipedia != RationalWiki. Plus, when i care about a topic, unlike you, I read multiple points of view from a variety of sources, then make up my own mind. And even if I granted that the CIA "weaponized" the term, I'm not using it to try an shut up any dissent from the mainstream pov. I only use it for long debunked ridiculous bullshit, especially if it's bullshit of the highest order that is even rejected by most other truthers.
Given your answers, I suggest we stick to the meta-level for now, because that might actually lead to a productive exchange.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Danvzare on Mon 25/04/2016 09:24:29
Danvzare, you probably was not around here at the time we did attempt to discuss the disintegrator ray :): http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=51989.0
Yeah, I definitely wasn't around back then. I should probably stop posting in this thread before I embarrass myself... again. (laugh)
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Mandle on Mon 25/04/2016 10:05:40
I actually thought you had read that other thread but had come away still confused as to what its central point was...As were most of us...
It was mostly just link to tons of "evidence", most of which was quickly debunked by other posters, to which the response was many new links to tons more "evidence", without much addressing of the points that had already been disproved...
It went round and round like that for a while and then I guess everyone just kinda agreed to disagree...
And then this thread came along and the popcorn machines got turned back on!
YAY!
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Mon 25/04/2016 11:38:22
9/11 is not about secrets, it's about complacency and propaganda.
We know that the entire US military stood down. Protocols for flight controllers and alert fighter response, which would normally prevent it, did not apply that day. We know those tapes were destroyed. We know that the USG did a whitewashed investigation, lists of the people involved have demanded a real investigation. We know that the scientists behind the official tale still won't publish their model, and rule out explosives based solely on the fact that they didn't test for any. We know the USG promptly destroyed key evidence. We know that passports (but nothing else) can survive being crushed by a skyscraper. We know that WTC7 was not struck by a plane, but is still one of only 3 skyscrapers ever to completely collapse due to fire. We know that not only did the twin towers collapse in this manner, but did so cleanly, from the top down, and into their own footprint, the path of greatest resistance, a collapse which has never before or since been possible than with anything other than a perfectly executed controlled demolition. We know that large amounts of gold went missing from the WTC complex during 9/11, far more than should be possible with the disaster alone. We know that key files from several SEC investigations regarding the financial crash that was occurring at the time were lost in WTC7. We know that the owner of the company responsible for the security of the buildings is named bush, the same name you will see on the bin laden christmas list.
All this and more, public record. To be found simply for the price of looking. Pretty much everything except the plainly visible controlled demolitions is circumstantial, even if it all does paint an unmistakable and strikingly coherent picture. Until there is a real investigation, videos of controlled demolition is all we know for sure. We know all this, and the only response a new investigation gets is ridicule from the government and mainstream media alike. Why reinvestigate when we were so thorough the first time? Why reinvestigate when it's only the single biggest thing shaping US foreign policy and invasions in the last decade and a half? Seriously, you must be blazing too much with the aliens lately.
A continued source of amazement is WTC7, and the number of people who completely glaze over it no matter how much it is referred to. You can talk about mostly WTC 7 for like 3 posts, and people will still think you are talking about the twin towers. Because it was the only ones they ever saw on TV? Could it really be that simple? It's a manifest phenomena, and yet it's still hard to believe. What else can't these people see while looking straight at it?
Alright then, that's about 10,000 words, way over the limit of what most are capable of handling, apparently.
TLDR: Let's pop on the pancake theory one more time, seasoned with a plain demonstration of how incapable people become at understanding english when 9/11 is mentioned. Go on then, post some UFOs pasted in next to 9/11 and then revel in your cleverness at debunking it.
PS: Okay, I know I'm being an asshole by letting my frustration out, but will one of you please recount the magic bullet theory? But put real emotion into it, like your brain is programmed directly by the TV.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Danvzare on Mon 25/04/2016 12:04:02
For the record, I gladly read it all. It was refreshing to read a post that only contained the facts, and no actual theories as to what all of these facts could mean. Also, it wasn't really that long in my opinion.
In short, clearly something weird is going on. What is it? I don't know... and personally I don't really care. For all I know, the building wasn't built to code. Whatever the case, it's seems as though something weird happened. I'm not sure what, but I'm sure of what it isn't.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Mon 25/04/2016 12:47:57
Quote from: Danvzare on Mon 25/04/2016 12:04:02 --For all I know, the building wasn't built to code. Whatever the case, it's seems as though something weird happened. I'm not sure what, but I'm sure of what it isn't.
With the same surety I can say that cutting corners to cause a perfect controlled demolition is a lot harder than executing a controlled demolition, 3 times in the same day.
Public record: NIST removed shear studs and fireproofing from all the load bearing supports of their model, which was present on the blueprints and the building, to get their girders deformed by fire to jump off their supports, which otherwise would not be possible. So corners were cut, but not where you think.
People proclaim that fire can deform steel, then use that as proof that buildings can implode due to fire, but the truth is that fire is the first thing buildings are designed to withstand, and can handle sagging beams as a matter of design.
But yeah, it seems you and I can at least agree that a reinvestigation in warranted. Don't you find it odd that it's simply laughed off, considering all the unanswered questions and the gravity of the matter?
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Khris on Mon 25/04/2016 12:53:18
Jack, you forgot the Jews.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Mon 25/04/2016 13:00:13
What about the Jews, Fah Knut?
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Mandle on Mon 25/04/2016 13:01:06
Quote from: Jack on Mon 25/04/2016 11:38:22 We know that not only did the twin towers collapse in this manner, but did so cleanly, from the top down, and into their own footprint, the path of greatest resistance, a collapse which has never before or since been possible than with anything other than a perfectly executed controlled demolition.
Actually they were built perfectly to code: Skyscrapers are, and always have been, designed to collapse straight down into their own footprint. There are two reasons for this:
(1) It makes a controlled demolition much easier to safely achieve.
(2) In the event of a massive structural failure the building does not topple sideways into the next, setting off a domino effect throughout the entire city. Does anyone really believe that the safety of a city like that of Manhatten is built solely on the dumb-luck of one single building never ever collapsing or else you lose that entire row?
Also, Jack, you can plainly see a large portion of the debris following the path of least resistance as it spills massively outwards over the collapsing floors below, and actually starts falling faster through the air than the main central collapse (this also completely debunks the "free-fall speed collapse" lies). Just because straight down into the remaining floors of the building is not the path of least resistance does not mean that the tons of debris are going to levitate sideways to avoid that route. They smack into it and some continue downwards while some are forced out sideways. This is exactly what is expected by physics and is exactly what we see in all the footage of the collapse.
A bit off-point but: Spoiler
There are those who point out that you can see windows lower than the collapse blowing out before the damage reaches them and claim that this shows evidence of the explosives used in a controlled demolition. I have a different theory: I'm not an engineer and could be completely wrong but, wouldn't the increasing air pressure of the inside of a building acordioning into itself be enough to explosively blow those windows out? The air pressure would be increasing in the areas below the collapse and so the blowouts would happen before the damaged area hit them. Once a window or two with slightly less structural integrity had blown out then no others on that floor would as the air pressure has been reduced already. This is why it only happens randomly here and there instead of entire floors blowing out like you would see in a movie.
Just my own theory of course...
[close]
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Mon 25/04/2016 13:14:42
Quote from: Mandle on Mon 25/04/2016 13:01:06Also, Jack, you can plainly see a large portion of the debris following the path of least resistance as it spills massively outwards over the collapsing floors below, and actually starts falling faster through the air than the main central collapse (this also completely debunks the "free-fall speed collapse" lies). Just because straight down into the remaining floors of the building is not the path of least resistance does not mean that the tons of debris are going to levitate sideways to avoid that route. They smack into it and some continue downwards while some are forced out sideways. This is exactly what is expected by physics and is exactly what we see in all the footage of the collapse.
Using WTC 1&2's collapse to debunk the "free fall speed lies" is an oft used straw man of debunking sites, since the admission (by NIST) of free fall for several seconds relates to WTC 7.
I'm quite out of my depth when it comes to the collapse of WTCs 1&2, which is why I stick to WTC7, which is plain as day. I do know that the very top of the building plowing through the rest of it is impossible without the lower part being structurally weakened to practically nothing (and by this I mean the complete lower part of the building, not the hole that was made by the plane), which fits with the pre-cutting of columns, which in turn is much more difficult to prove since the USG destroyed the evidence.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Danvzare on Mon 25/04/2016 19:08:59
Not really. Considering how the media blew it way out of proportions, that conspiracy theorists also did the same thing, and just how big of a deal this incident means to people, I can completely understand why it gets laughed off.
Besides, a plane crashed into a building. For most people (me included) that's an open and shut case. I mean, would YOU do the extra work required to investigate something that seems that simple to you? For most people, the answer is no. Even if something weird is going on, which it kinda seem as though it is. You can't deny that a plane crashed into a building. And with that in mind, that's all people will see.
It's a bit like this. Let's assume that there's a car crash. You go down, and find one survivor, so you stab them to death. The police finally arrive and see the car crash, and the weird stab wounds. They wonder who on earth would just murder a lone survivor in a car crash? They then ignore it, because who wants to do the extra leg work for such an open and shut case.
In short, it's not odd at all.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Mon 25/04/2016 19:57:35
Quote from: Danvzare on Mon 25/04/2016 19:08:59 It's a bit like this. Let's assume that there's a car crash. You go down, and find one survivor, so you stab them to death. The police finally arrive and see the car crash, and the weird stab wounds. They wonder who on earth would just murder a lone survivor in a car crash? They then ignore it, because who wants to do the extra leg work for such an open and shut case.
Good analogy. It would be extremely odd for the police to ignore a murder, assuming they recognised the stab wounds for what they are.
It's true, most people don't think it's weird at all. I certainly didn't question it until I saw footage of WTC7 coming down, many years later. The government and media can't claim this, though. They have always had access to all the things I listed and more. And let's not pretend they started out ignorant like the rest of us. The USG knew enough to destroy the evidence right away, and the media has been pretending that WTC7 doesn't exist to the extent that most people have never heard of it (and some can't parse it even when you mention it repeatedly).
So to re-use your analogy, it's not odd for the policeman to not want to investigate a murder if he doesn't recognise the wounds. But if he does recognise them as stab wounds and then doesn't investigate, this means he's not investigating to protect his own interests, directly or indirectly.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Ali on Fri 29/04/2016 14:13:58
I think an example of an actual, real conspiracy might be useful for comparison:
After 27 years, a jury concluded that the 96 fans who died in the Hillsborough disaster were unlawfully killed. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-36138337)
The police were responsible for both the crush, and the subsequent lack of medical attention which lead to the 96 deaths. The police, in concert with the media and politicians put out a story blaming Liverpool fans for the disaster, inventing tales of 'drunken yobs' urinating on and looting from bodies. It's taken years for the families of the dead to be vindicated. Most of the people responsible for the cover-up are probably beyond prosecution now, but the establishment has finally acknowledged the truth.
That's what a real conspiracy looks like: Shabby, shameful and ultimately unsuccessful. Real conspiracies don't require secret elites, shadow governments, Zionists, lizards or holograms. Just venal people protecting their own interests.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: monkey424 on Sat 07/05/2016 14:45:18
As much as I'd love to chat about 9/11 (or even Madeline McCann - remember her?) I'm going to push on with the next topic.
This one will BLOW YOUR MIND! Or put you to sleep...
Alternative Knowledge Topic #5: Money
I'm not an economist or anything like that so I won't pretend to be an expert on the subject of money. However, everyone knows that money is the root of all evil, so in the interest of my conspiracy ramblings / vigilante-like thread, I think it's a topic worth exploring. Again, this might be an obvious or well-known subject to some, but I'm writing about this here mainly for my benefit - just to get my head round it all. Hopefully a few will be enlightened too. As it is also quite a dry subject, it may be good reading material before bed.
Brief History of Money
At some point in time there became a need to replace bartering with a monetary system, and new laws facilitated this transition.
Raw materials were processed into some form of currency, e.g. precious metals were forged into coins by goldsmiths.
Currency began to circulate through the economy through trade and taxes.
Trade was also sometimes facilitated by promissory notes.
In this system, it is the goods and services that have value.
Promissory notes are only as valuable as the good or service it represents (this is where the phrase "as good as gold" comes from).
Because 17th century goldsmiths worked with precious metals, they had the most secure safes in all the land. Consequently, there was a public demand for storing money in these safes.
The goldsmiths were essentially like a bank for depositing money.
At some point, the goldsmiths cottoned onto this idea of lending money out once they'd accumulated sufficient cash in their inventory.
The goldsmiths started lending out a portion of the money and collecting interest, just like the banks of today.
Modern-day money is called fiat currency - money that the government has declared to be legal tender, but is not backed by a physical commodity.
Because modern-day money has no intrinsic value (goods and services do), introducing more money into an economy will cause inflation (if disproportionate to the goods and services in that economy).
Nowadays, nearly all money across the world is digital (about 95%) which is created as simply as pressing a key on a computer.
(https://imageshack.com/i/pmyPWg2Kg)
Fractional-Reserve Banking
The fractional-reserve banking system is illustrated in this diagram below, sourced from the internet (with some improvised graphics).
The bank typically reserves 10% of a deposit and loans out the remaining 90%.
The result (according to the diagram) appears to be additional money in the economy, however I would suggest this is offset by the borrower's ability to pay back the principle. In other words, the goods and services make up the total value in the system, not the money in circulation.
The problem with this system is when a borrower defaults on a loan.
Another problem is when everyone wants to withdraw at the same time!
Note - an alternative to this system is full-reserve banking, or some sort of hybrid system.
(https://imageshack.com/i/plZDLCsJp)
Interest
Note - the concept of interest is not shown in the above diagram.
Paying interest on loans is called usury, and it is prohibited in Islamic banking systems. I believe Islamic banks earn profit by other means (e.g. higher admin fees).
The biggest problem with our Western banks is the interest they charge on loans, as the profit made by interest is disproportionate to the value the banks add to society.
If a commercial bank had (say) $10 million in loan requests on any given day, it would simply request that money from the central bank, who would type a few keys to create the money from nowhere and send it to the commercial bank that night. They would then distribute it as loans to its customers. They earn interest from the customer and, of course, pay interest to the central bank for the loan of the capital. Money and profit from nowhere.
The Central Bank
According to this article (http://www.publiceye.org/conspire/flaherty/flaherty4.html) on the US banking system, the central bank is owned by private commercial banks, like shareholders of any private industry, however monetary policy is dictated by 12 District Banks and the Board of Governors appointed by the government. The central bank, called the Federal Reserve Bank (FRB) in the US, primarily deals with the buying and selling of government bonds (open market operations). A bond is really not much more than an IOU with a serial number. The FRB buys a large chunk of these, which the government then pays back over time, plus interest.
According to this financial statement (https://www.federalreserve.gov/boarddocs/rptcongress/annual99/ann99.pdf#page=331) from the Board of Governors 1999 Annual Report, the FRB also contributes a generous annual rebate to the government. However, this does not compensate for the interest owed by the government, so the government operates on a loss. This is typical of most years, as illustrated in the chart below.
Furthermore, the FRB also collects surplus (every year it seems), also illustrated in the chart below. Since 1998 the surplus has accumulated by nearly $30 billion $US.
If the US central bank is controlled by the government, then why isn't the money held in surplus used immediately to service the government debt?
More pertinently, why is the debt there in the first place? Again, if the central bank is controlled by the government, why does the government effectively pay interest to itself and perpetuate the debt? Who's running the show?
If most of the money across the world is digital (and costs next to nothing to create) then why is there this disproportionate debt attached to the money in its creation?
(https://imageshack.com/i/poDtG3OIp)
(https://imageshack.com/i/ponWwXaqp)
Mainstream Media
Repeating what I said earlier – I'm not an expert on this topic, but am interested in learning more about it and encourage discussion. Unfortunately, the mainstream media (as we've seen) is not a reliable source of information because they won't focus on the real issue with our monetary system – they won't question the idiocy of the system itself.
If you have some time, please watch this presentation by Richard D Hall on the very topic I've been discussing, with more detail about the apparent role of mainstream media to keep us uninformed.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Ali on Sun 08/05/2016 01:20:27
I'm not an economist either, but I don't think you have your facts straight. Fractional reserve banking doesn't mean I deposit $1000 and the bank loans out a percentage of that deposit. It means that the bank loans significantly MORE than my deposit. Commercial banks extend credit that EXCEEDS their reserves, and that's where extra money enters the system. EDIT: It seems like I didn't have my facts straight!
I'm no expert (EDIT: demonstrably), but I did happen to be reading a book by Adair Turner (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnB18YHA5AU) about this today. These things aren't secrets, there are books about them all over the place!
Quote from: monkey424 on Sat 07/05/2016 14:45:18 If the US central bank is controlled by the government, then why isn't the money held in surplus used immediately to service the government debt?
One big reason, which you mentioned, is that Governments/Central Banks printing money can lead to disastrous hyperinflation. Look at Zimbabwe or Weimar Germany.
Quote from: monkey424 on Sat 07/05/2016 14:45:18 More pertinently, why is the debt there in the first place? Again, if the central bank is controlled by the government, why does the government effectively pay interest to itself and perpetuate the debt? Who's running the show?
I don't know about the US, but in the UK the Central Bank is largely independent and mainly responsible for making adjustments to the wider economy by setting interest rates. The debt is there because governments borrow, for instance by selling government bonds, which are treated as 'risk-free' investments because the government is very unlikely to default. Government debt is particularly troublesome now (post-2008) because (according to a graph I saw in that book) the enormous private-sector debt built up before the crash has effectively been shifted onto government in order to get the economy moving again.
Who's running the show? No one, we are adrift on a vast ocean. That's partly why government debt exists - governments do not have a free hand to do whatever they want (except in conspiracy theories).
Quote from: monkey424 on Sat 07/05/2016 14:45:18 If most of the money across the world is digital (and costs next to nothing to create) then why is there this disproportionate debt attached to the money in its creation?
Because the money is created AS credit. Because debts and debt derivatives are valuable in modern, complex financial markets. A commercial bank can make a loan, and then the debt itself can be sold, sliced, repackaged and bet against. It possible for this liquidity to benefit the real economy by (for instance) making it easier to invest in new businesses. It's also possible for banks and other financial organisations to make (and lose) a lot of money trading derivatives back and forth without adding any value to the economy as a whole. It's also possible that this could crash economies across the western world (See 2008).
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Danvzare on Sun 08/05/2016 10:47:20
What do you know, I already knew most of this. :-D
So here's my two cents. The reason why the whole world is still in debt, is because everyone is too proud to call it off. Think of it like this. There's three people, Bill, Will, and Jill. Bill owes Will £10 Will owes Jill £10 and Jill owes Bill £10
The cumulative debt is £30, although in actual fact, they could easily (and definitely should) just call off the debt altogether, since they'd all be effectively paying each other off by calling off the debt.
Of course it's much more complex than that, because there's a lot more than just three, and each country doesn't owe each other the exact same amount. But I'm sure if you did a bit of math, you'd easily be able to find out that the actual debt that should be paid, is barely a faction of what it's supposed to be.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Snarky on Sun 08/05/2016 19:12:52
Quote from: Ali on Sun 08/05/2016 01:20:27 I'm not an economist either, but I don't think you have your facts straight. Fractional reserve banking doesn't mean I deposit $1000 and the bank loans out a percentage of that deposit. It means that the bank loans significantly MORE than my deposit. Commercial banks extend credit that EXCEEDS their reserves, and that's where extra money enters the system.
I don't think that's quite right, Ali. A fractional reserve means that they keep part of the money you deposit in reserve (to cover withdrawals) and lend out or invest the rest. They can't lend out more money than people have deposited, because they don't have any more "in their vault" (if you imagine that it's all in coin, you see why).
However, because they only keep a fraction of people's deposits (let's say 10%) in reserve, they can take the rest of that money and "recycle" it over and over:
Person A deposits $100 Bank keeps $10 in reserve, lends out $90 to Person B Person B pays that $90 to Person C Person C deposits that $90 to their account Bank keeps $9 in reserve, lends out $81 etc.
Ultimately, different people may deposit those same physical $100 over and over, so that their accounts, taken together, hold much more money than there ever was, and money has seemingly been "created" (because it's all balanced out by debt). But the bank reserve (of actual cash) is still 10% of all the "virtual" money that has been created: in the limit, the sum of all deposits are $1000, backed by the entire original $100 in reserve, and the other $900 as debt.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Sun 08/05/2016 20:01:18
Quote from: Snarky on Sun 08/05/2016 19:12:52 Person A deposits $100 Bank keeps $10 in reserve, lends out $90 to Person B Person B pays that $90 to Person C Person C deposits that $90 to their account Bank keeps $9 in reserve, lends out $81 etc.
This is correct, except that the whole deposit is counted as a reserve, since it's now "real money" that the bank has in reserve. So when they receive $1, they are allowed to lend out $10 since they have 10% of the loan in reserve.
This is why fractional reserve lending is a form of money creation.
Money creation in and of itself is not a bad thing. The core of the issue is that banks are a profit-run business, which we are all forced to use because of crony-ism more than a century old.
And countries do all owe sums to each other, but they also all owe their respective central banks much more. The sole issuers of currency, the world over, does so with interest. The debt will grow until the system is changed.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Snarky on Sun 08/05/2016 20:33:10
Quote from: Jack on Sun 08/05/2016 20:01:18 This is correct, except that the whole deposit is counted as a reserve, since it's now "real money" that the bank has in reserve. So when they receive $1, they are allowed to lend out $10 since they have 10% of the loan in reserve.
This is why fractional reserve lending is a form of money creation.
That's what Ali said, but you are both wrong. They can't directly lend more money than they have, because they don't have it, and they're not allowed to magically create hard currency. Rather, as I explained, "virtual money" is created through the mere fact of lending out the cash that was deposited while also allowing the person who deposited it to claim it as theirs.
Your mistake here is that you're using the reserve requirement backwards (you seem to have gotten confused about the money multiplier equation), and that you assume that they can keep the $1 in reserve and also lend it out (along with another $9 that I suppose you think they conjure up from thin air). No. Once they've lent it out, it's no longer in reserve, obviously, and they're immediately afoul of the reserve requirements. On a $1 deposit and a 10% reserve requirement, they can only lend out $0.90.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Sun 08/05/2016 21:14:29
We're not talking about notes of currency, but money, virtual or not.
No one was suggesting that the paper actually appeared out of thin air. Banks don't issue paper and coins, the treasury does.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Snarky on Sun 08/05/2016 22:02:05
The point is that for the bank to lend out a certain sum, it has to actually have that sum available in "real" money: treasury notes, gold bullion or what have you. As in your post before, you're not taking into account that when the bank lends out money, it actually has to give out that money, which means that (1) it has to have the money, and (2) once it's given it out, it no longer holds it in reserve.
If I'm a bank, and various people have given me a total of $1000 in various deposits, and you come to me and ask, "Hey, can you lend me $10,000?" the answer is no, I can't, because I don't have it. I might be able to borrow the money from another bank and then lend it to you, but that's like having that bank "deposit" the money in my bank (a deposit is essentially a loan to the bank: the bank now owes you that money, it's in debt to you). Only once that sum has been deposited, when I have the "money in the vault", can I actually lend it to you. And because of the reserve requirements, I can't lend you all of it: I have to keep some fraction of it in the vault.
This idea that banks lend out more than people have deposited is a misunderstanding of fractional reserve banking and the money multiplier effect. As previously demonstrated, money is "created" by the fact that some part of the money that has been deposited is lent out (and can be deposited again), not by the bank just pretending it has more money than it really does.
But there's no point arguing over this. The correct answer is a simple google search away:
QuoteWhen you put your money into a bank, the bank is required to keep a certain percentage, a fraction, of that money on reserve at the bank, but the bank can lend the rest out. For instance, if you deposit $100,000 at the bank and the bank has a reserve requirement of 10 percent, the bank must keep $10,000 of your money on reserve and can lend out the $90,000.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Ali on Mon 09/05/2016 01:19:53
Quote from: Snarky on Sun 08/05/2016 22:02:05 The point is that for the bank to lend out a certain sum, it has to actually have that sum available in "real" money: treasury notes, gold bullion or what have you. As in your post before, you're not taking into account that when the bank lends out money, it actually has to give out that money, which means that (1) it has to have the money, and (2) once it's given it out, it no longer holds it in reserve.
Fair dos, my account of Fractional Reserve Banking is clearly wrong! But, is it really true that when a bank issues a loan they actually have to give out "real" money that they hold in reserve? I ask that in the context of reading things like this:
"When banks extend loans to their customers, they create money by crediting their customers' accounts." Mervyn King (Former Gov. of the Bank of England)
"Read an undergraduate textbook of economics... and if they describe banks at all, it is usually as follows: "banks take deposits from households and lend money to businesses, allocating capital between alternative capital investment possibilities." But as a description of what modern banks do, this account is largely fictional, and it fails to capture their essential role and implications. Banks create credit, money, and thus purchasing power. They make loans to borrowers, crediting an asset on the banks' balance sheet; at the same time they put money in the borrowers' account, creating a bank liability. The loan is repayable at a later date, but the money is immediately available. It is this "maturity transformation" that creates effective purchasing power. The borrower may, and almost certainly will, then pay out the money to another business or household, but that creates money in that person's account. The vast majority of what we count as "money" in modern economics is created in this fashion: in the United Kingdom 98% of money takes this form, and only 2% represents the notes and coins liabilities of the state." Adair Turner (Former head of the UK's Financial Services Authority) - any typos are mine, not his.
If money = purchasing power, is there a practical difference between what we're calling "real" and "virtual" money?
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Snarky on Mon 09/05/2016 07:12:59
Quote from: Ali on Mon 09/05/2016 01:19:53Fair dos, my account of Fractional Reserve Banking is clearly wrong! But, is it really true that when a bank issues a loan they actually have to give out "real" money that they hold in reserve?
I think that depends on exactly what you mean. Clearly, in practice a lot of transactions today happen purely "on paper" or digitally, and don't involve the immediate physical transfer of actual bills or coins. However, the point is still that when the banks make a loan, they have to debit their reserve, and if this makes them fall below the reserve requirements, they need to increase their hard assets somehow. I don't know exactly what forms of money are considered acceptable as bank reserve, but I imagine that the banks and the treasury or central bank work with various kinds of obligations that, although not regular cash, are "as good" as currency.
I note that the quotes are not incompatible with this account. The idea that only 2% of "money" is cash and state obligations is maybe surprising when we've been talking about 10% reserve requirements, but in fact the UK currently has no reserve requirement, and this number is consistent with its reserve targets achieved in various ways.
QuoteIf money = purchasing power, is there a practical difference between what we're calling "real" and "virtual" money?
It depends on your point of view. For many purposes, no, it does not matter. "Money can be exchanged for goods and services" â€" and any kind of token or promise that can be traded (ideally at a predictable value) can effectively act as a currency: airline miles, cigarettes, baseball cards, casino chips, stamps, Microsoft points (formerly), etc. (Unofficial currencies such as these are known as "scrip".)
What sets different forms of "money" apart in practice are its liquidity and its risk of default, which are usually linked. If your money is kept as a promissory note (debt) from a private party, you run a risk that the debtor will refuse or be unable to pay you back, and that you won't be able to trade it to anyone else. This is true even of "money in the bank", although there are laws and insurance that protects some of the money in checking accounts in the case of bank failure. Hard cash is guaranteed by the government, and in a well-functioning economy that's as safe and as liquid as it gets.
Economists talk of different classes of money. What we've been calling "real" money is technically known as "base" money, or MB. Other classes of money are M1, M2, M3, ranked by liquidity.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Mandle on Mon 09/05/2016 07:21:58
Wow...now I understand why so many big finance dudes think they can skim a bit of money and hide their crime in such a hugely complex system...
There must be some serious economic Sherlock-types out there working to catch them...
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Ali on Mon 09/05/2016 10:11:05
Quote from: Snarky on Mon 09/05/2016 07:12:59 However, the point is still that when the banks make a loan, they have to debit their reserve, and if this makes them fall below the reserve requirements, they need to increase their hard assets somehow.
This totally makes sense. But is it effectively true? (If it is I'll be happy to be proven wrong again!)
QuoteThe reality of how money is created today differs from the description found in some economics textbooks: • Rather than banks receiving deposits when households save and then lending them out, bank lending creates deposits. • In normal times, the central bank does not fix the amount of money in circulation, nor is central bank money ‘multiplied up' into more loans and deposits. Although commercial banks create money through lending, they cannot do so freely without limit. Banks are limited in how much they can lend if they are to remain profitable in a competitive banking system.
From a Bank of England PDF (http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/Documents/quarterlybulletin/2014/qb14q102.pdf).
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Snarky on Mon 09/05/2016 12:19:10
Nice one, Ali. A great explanation there.
My takeaway is that the answer is a little of both. While the explanation at first sounds like a firm contradiction, if you read the details, it's actually not that different.
I acknowledge that you were right that they can lend money that they don't "have" by depositing whatever they want into a customer's account, matched by the debt that customer takes on, thereby creating money at the stroke of a pen. However, note that this creates a deposit for the customer, which is subject to any reserve requirement. The UK, as mentioned before, doesn't have such a requirement (instead it uses incentives such as interest rate to keep the banks' lending at a reasonable level), but many other countries, including the US, do. So this means that the bank could be forced to increase its reserve. As the paper explains:
QuoteAs discussed earlier, the higher stock of deposits may mean that banks want, or are required, to hold more central bank money in order to meet withdrawals by the public or make payments to other banks. And reserves are, in normal times, supplied ‘on demand' by the Bank of England to commercial banks in exchange for other assets on their balance sheets.
In other words, very similar to the point I made earlier that they can borrow from another bank (or in this case the central bank) in order to make the loan. It switches the order of things around, but since this is all happening dynamically all the time, it doesn't really make a huge difference.
So instead of saying:
Person A deposits $100 Bank keeps $10 in reserve, lends out $90 to Person B
We have:
Bank lends $100 to Person B, as a deposit in their account Bank now needs to increase its reserve by $10, so it sells $10 worth of the loan to another bank or the central bank, in return for vault or reserve money
In either case, the bank's balance sheet ends up the same (Assets: $10 in reserve cash, $90 in outstanding loans; Liabilities: $100 in deposits in customers' accounts).
Of course, the bank will also want to actually be able to pay the loan they've pledged if the customer does withdraw the money from their account; so if they don't have $100 lying around, they're not going to offer Person B a loan of that amount. But in practice, the total cash they hold is much greater than the value of any one loan, so this isn't much of a problem unless there's a crisis or bank run.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Ali on Mon 09/05/2016 17:58:37
Quote from: Snarky on Mon 09/05/2016 12:19:10 My takeaway is that the answer is a little of both. While the explanation at first sounds like a firm contradiction, if you read the details, it's actually not that different.
Cool! I feel like this thread has veered wildly off topic into facts about the real world...
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Tue 10/05/2016 12:07:44
Did I just witness you all deciding that fractional reserve banking is a-ok because we were wrong about the level at which banks are allowed to generate money out of thin air, for no other reason than to maximise their profits? I guess that it also proved that central banks are not this planet's largest cancerous mass?
Ok then.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Ali on Tue 10/05/2016 12:12:01
No way! I'm a socialist - not particularly keen on deregulated financial markets. It's just that, unlike the other things in this thread, the banking system does actually exist.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Tue 10/05/2016 13:08:42
The sole issuers of money are private businesses operating for profit, and you think they should be regulated?
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Snarky on Tue 10/05/2016 15:42:15
Quote from: Jack on Tue 10/05/2016 12:07:44 Did I just witness you all deciding that fractional reserve banking is a-ok because we were wrong about the level at which banks are allowed to generate money out of thin air, for no other reason than to maximise their profits? I guess that it also proved that central banks are not this planet's largest cancerous mass?
I'd say you witnessed us discussing how the banking system actually works and what these talking point slogans mean more precisely, to facilitate reasonable argument rather than paranoid hysteria.
"Generate money out of thin air" sounds like a scam. But when you look at what it actually means: making a loan (and people considering their bank account balance to be the same as having cash) â€" it turns out that it's just another way to think about a completely routine activity. It's creating money in the same way as me borrowing 10 bucks from you in return for an IOU slip is creating money: others who know me might be willing to treat that slip as being worth $10 because they can always ask me to pay it back, and so it can be exchanged and traded among us just like a $10 bill. We have "created" $10. Are we then "a cancerous mass"?
BTW, you're conflating multiple separate issues together: fractional reserve banking, fiat money, and private ownership of central banks. I don't think that kind of ill-defined outrage is particularly helpful.
If we didn't have fractional reserve banking, if banks weren't allowed to invest or loan out any of the money people deposited, then they wouldn't really be banks, they'd just be warehouses for money. You wouldn't be getting any interest on your savings; instead you'd have to pay rent on the storage. And unless you knew a rich person or loan shark, you could never get a major loan. (In fact, strictly speaking you shouldn't be allowed to invest money you borrowed at all, because how is that different from the practice of fractional reserve banking?) So no startup loans for businesses, no mortgage, no student loans... If you can't fund it on the spot yourself, just forget about it!
There are many criticisms to be made of the financial systems and the current economic order, but to think that this would be better is far-fetched to say the least, IMO.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Tue 10/05/2016 18:20:07
Quote from: Snarky on Tue 10/05/2016 15:42:15 It's creating money in the same way as me borrowing 10 bucks from you in return for an IOU slip is creating money: others who know me might be willing to treat that slip as being worth $10 because they can always ask me to pay it back, and so it can be exchanged and traded among us just like a $10 bill. We have "created" $10. Are we then "a cancerous mass"?
What you just described is illegal, and that's my point. A small group have been given the right to create currency, which would make sense if they weren't a private business operating for profit.
You can generate money out of thin air. You can charge people interest for the money you created. You can force people to all use only your currency.
You can do these things separately, or two together. When you do all three together, that enslaves people to a monopoly.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Ali on Tue 10/05/2016 18:36:25
Quote from: Jack on Tue 10/05/2016 18:20:07 What you just described is illegal, and that's my point. A small group have been given the right to create currency, which would make sense if they weren't a private business operating for profit.
It's not illegal just because you think it's wrong. Or because I think it's wrong. There are a variety of arguments in favour of banks extending credit in this way - credit can smooth out variations in income across individuals' lifetimes. Credit can facilitate investment in new (and therefore risky) business, science or technology.
You don't have to agree with those arguments, but do acknowledge them. The financial system may be amoral, irrational and rigged in favour of the wealthy. But what's the use of simplifying the issue in conspiratorial terms?
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Tue 10/05/2016 19:30:51
I was referring to the example of a private citizen issuing IOUs as promissory notes. It's illegal to create currency which would compete with the reserve bank's regional currency.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Snarky on Wed 11/05/2016 12:43:41
This is certainly not true in general. You think bitcoins, commissary accounts, traveler's checks, poker chips and airline miles are all illegal? Different laws and regulations may apply depending on the details (IOUs and promissory notes differ somewhat, mainly in that IOUs don't explicitly promise to pay back the debt), but as long as it's not used for money laundering or tax avoidance, as long as it's not claiming to be legal tender, and depending on whether and how it can be exchanged for legal tender, you're generally good to go. (If you start to engage in certain transactions or activities on a major scale, e.g. issuing loans to the general public, you'll eventually fall under banking or other financial regulation, naturally.)
If you think it's illegal to create currency to compete with legal tender, check out local currencies (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_currency), digital currencies (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_currencies), virtual currencies (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_currency), private currencies (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_currency), complementary currencies (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complementary_currency), alternative currencies (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_currency) and scrip (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrip).
Edit: And since I see you're from South Africa, you might find this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ora_%28currency%29) particularly relevant.
Edit 2: Presumably what you're referring to is this case (http://www.communitycurrencieslaw.org/currency-laws/), based on a statute that it's illegal to make or pass unauthorized metal coins "intended for use as current money." (Exactly what "current money" means is not entirely settled, but it's clear in the context of other laws that debts, promissory notes, IOUs etc. do not fall under this term. Perhaps a good rule of thumb is whether a naive person would say "this is a dollar" or "this is worth a dollar".) In that particular case, the currency was designed to be easily confused with US mint dollars, and intended to be used interchangeably with them.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Wed 11/05/2016 22:43:33
So my practical alternatives are to go live in Orania (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orania,_Northern_Cape) (which is in no way independent from the rand, BTW), or see if anyone wants to trade land, or any other necessity, for the currency I just invented? The latter has a higher chance of success than wasting energy mining bitcoins for 20 years to do the same.
Yeah, this world is brimming with alternatives, none of which are of real use before first being converted to one of the central bank's currencies.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Danvzare on Thu 12/05/2016 11:26:54
Considering there are nearly 300 active currencies in the world, then the answer is yes. There are LOADS of alternatives.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Thu 12/05/2016 13:06:01
The national central banks which don't have the same few 200-year-old banks as major shareholders can be counted on one hand. The recent expansionist wars by the US has cut that number in half, but surely that's just a coincidence.
300 currencies? For how many countries? Forced on how many people?
All paying ever-growing interest in perpetuity to the same few people.
But that's my problem, apparently. Because if you don't like your job flipping burgers with a degree, you can just quit, right? And if you don't like the fed, there's always the ECB. Don't like the democrats? Vote republican!
No, let's talk about the real issues, as seen on TV. Like how we're so overpopulated that every person on the planet can have ~1,000 m² on the Australian continent. Oh, wait, why don't we tax people for the weather?! Let's make the gas they exhale illegal and tax them for farts.
Carry on to your end.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Snarky on Thu 12/05/2016 13:30:57
Quote from: Jack on Wed 11/05/2016 22:43:33 So my practical alternatives are to go live in Orania (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orania,_Northern_Cape), or see if anyone wants to trade land, or any other necessity, for the currency I just invented? The latter has a higher chance of success than wasting energy mining bitcoins for 20 years to do the same.
Or you could buy bitcoins. Or you could create money the same way banks do, by lending. Or you could join the Glenn Beck brigade and put all your money into gold.
QuoteYeah, this world is brimming with alternatives, none of which are of real use before first being converted to one of the central bank's currencies.
Not true. Gift cards, for example, are clearly "money" in the sense we're talking here, and you can do a hell of a lot with e.g. an Amazon gift card without converting it.
All paying ever-growing interest in perpetuity to the same few people.
But that's my problem, apparently.
There's a real "render unto Caesar" argument to be made here...
What you seem to be demanding is that anyone should be able to create a widely adopted currency whenever they want, or be allowed to mint money as they like. Clearly that can't work, but that's the fault of logic and reality, not the banks.
Quote from: Jack on Thu 12/05/2016 13:06:01 Like how we're so overpopulated that every person on the planet can have ~1,000 m² on the Australian continent. Oh, wait, why don't we tax people for the weather?! Let's make the gas they exhale illegal and tax them for farts.
Is that climate change denialism I smell? Why, I believe it is! Well, I suppose this is the thread for it.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Khris on Thu 12/05/2016 15:28:50
I can smell it, too. Fits like a glove.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Danvzare on Thu 12/05/2016 16:55:14
I believe the general consensus for people who don't believe in global warming, is that climate change has more of an effect. Which I usually take to mean that global warming exists, but not at the scale governments lead you to believe, because what they usually point at is actually climate change.
Or at least that's the impression I've built up over time.
Personally I think you'd have to be an idiot to deny that it's possible, simply because it's basic science. Just look at how an actual greenhouse works. The argument they raise is that humans can't have that much of an impact. Which is hard to believe, considering we seem to be able to make a huge impact on everything else in the world, even driving animals to extinction.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Thu 19/05/2016 01:44:12
Oh, right. Because there's just the MSM version, and any deviation from that involves UFOs. Get fluoridated much?
97% Study Falsely Classifies Scientists' Papers, according to the scientists that published them (http://www.populartechnology.net/2013/05/97-study-falsely-classifies-scientists.html)
Mars Melt Hints at Solar, Not Human, Cause for Warming, Scientist Says (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/02/070228-mars-warming.html)
But why waste a good crisis on our march to being RFID chipped?
Anyway, just march on. If you can't see how infinite debt ensures perpetual slavery, there's probably not enough of a person left in you to even appreciate freedom.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Scavenger on Thu 19/05/2016 02:33:12
Oh my god water flouridation mind control as well? I can't wait for the Age of Aquarius, Sirius the Dog Star, and Dogon String Theory stuff to arrive too! Come on, let's do it! Let's bring in the god dang Abydos Machines (http://www.ufodigest.com/egyptplanes.html), too!
Nevermind that that's clearly Ramses II's name poorly plastered over Seti I's, it LOOKS like a helicopter! And Mainstream Egyptology doesn't want you to believe that!! The truth is right in front of your eyes, but you're being lied to, for some reason that doesn't really make sense to anyone but a conspiracy theorist who presupposes that everyone is out to lie to them.
Seriously though, what possible reason would people have to lie about the human effects of climate change? The vast majority of greenhouse gasses are made by industries, which also produces a whole lot of toxic sludge alongside it in factories and stuff. The solution to climate change is the regulation and transformation of industry into something greener. That doesn't make money - that loses money. Nobody is making money in this situation. You can say "taxes" though really you can then use that to fund a national health service or something. Governments really shouldn't be in the money making business.
BUT!!!
Getting you to believe that climate change is fakey fake fake and that all these healthful exhaust gasses are GOOD for the earth instead? That makes industries lots of money. Just like when big tobacco companies hire fake scientists to say that cigarettes are good for you. They wanna sell you something. They want to reduce you to what you can provide in capital, and fuck your health and fuck your future.
Honestly if anyone's drinking the flouridated water, it's climate change deniers. There's nothin' but good that can come of making the world greener. There's nothing but bad to come from exploiting the earth further.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Thu 19/05/2016 12:20:03
Pretty much all the studies done on fluoride consumption showed that it has negative effects on the brain and cognitive abilities.
See, this is my other point. I wrote but five sentences and nowhere said that climate change is fake, but somehow you had to invent my opinion for me. You saw the word fluoride, and went off like a gun. You just couldn't help but proudly display one of the 32 whole thoughts you are able to delineate. Never mind the facts.
Fractional reserve banking seems to make sense, if the reserve rate is set at a reasonable level, which is not the case in reality. A low reserve rate (or none, as some countries do) exists for no other reason than to increase the bank's profit. And no, I can't just "create money like a bank", because firstly, that IS illegal for private citizens, and is strictly regulated (to favour established banks), and secondly, because I am a wage slave like every other private citizen, and didn't inherit from my inbred trillionaire ancestors. Thanks mitt (http://www.msnbc.com/the-ed-show/romney-tells-students-borrow-money), you bloody moron. Fact is, some countries do get on well financially without giving their banks an unconscionable amount of control over the whole country, even when they do have sanctions against them. That is until they get invaded.
This is not even to mention central banks, which are private, and literally wish the money into existence, then charges us all interest for it. Debt which is now choking the world economy to death, and pushing us to world war.
But tell me again how I'm moving the goal posts for pointing out how the racist colony you suggested as an alternative is in no way independent from the reserve bank's hold, even though the whole town is situated on private property and is officially like a country of it's own. Whip out them gift cards as an example of how the bank appointed local currency has real competition. What the actual frak?
It's no surprise that people like you seek leadership, however corrupt, if that's how your brains work. Fluoride can't be responsible for all this, though. The US is actually one of very few that does it, as I recall, and let's just say the proof is in the pudding as far as that's concerned, but what's the rest of you's excuse?
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Ali on Thu 19/05/2016 13:25:00
As far as I can tell, no one on this thread is arguing that national and international banking systems are working well. We have stock market crashes every 10-15 years to remind us that they don't work properly.
I don't want to patronise you, but the problem with conspiratorial thinking is we can't talk about the very real problems of modern capitalism without fluoridation and climate change denial irrelevantly popping in. Conspiratorial thinking prefers explanations which are at a practical level unnecessarily complex and at an emotional level very simple and reassuring. Climate change is a scam - that would be nice wouldn't it? The world is run by evil lizards - well, at least it isn't (to borrow Alan Moore's term) rudderless. The financial system is in the hands of a secret cabal, rather than being full of chaos, conflict and contradiction.
Anyway, for a SERIOUS investigation of money & debt, Philomena Cunk asks the REAL questions. Like "when you have a coin, where is the money in that coin?":
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Snarky on Thu 19/05/2016 14:10:29
Quote from: Jack on Thu 19/05/2016 12:20:03 See, this is my other point. I wrote but five sentences and nowhere said that climate change is fake, but somehow you had to invent my opinion for me. You saw the word fluoride, and went off like a gun. You just couldn't help but proudly display one of the 32 whole thoughts you are able to delineate. Never mind the facts.
And yet it turns out that you are a climate change denier (or anthropogenic climate change skeptic, if you prefer) and do believe fluoridation is harmful, so those snap judgments were completely on the mark. Imagine that!
QuoteAnd no, I can't just "create money like a bank", because firstly, that IS illegal for private citizens, and is strictly regulated (to favour established banks),
Yeah, your unsubstantiated assertion is not going to cut it here. Also notice that the first part (it's illegal) and the second (it's strictly regulated) contradict each other.
It's certainly not illegal for private individuals to lend money, though there are often regulations on what sort of conditions are legal (to restrict usurers and loan sharks). And markets in lending are not restricted to banks; you have things like "hard money" (private lending) and peer-to-peer lending through exchanges.
We should also define the scope of discussion: to claim that something "is illegal" is pretty meaningless without specifying what jurisdiction you're talking about.
The claim that "only banks are allowed to create money" (i.e. lend) is pretty meaningless, since any individual or institution that starts lending money on a wide scale effectively becomes a bank. It's like complaining that parliament is full of politicians: well, duh!
QuoteBut tell me again how I'm moving the goal posts for pointing out how the racist colony you suggested as an alternative is in no way independent from the reserve bank's hold, even though the whole town is situated on private property and is officially like a country of it's own. Whip out them gift cards as an example of how the bank appointed local currency has real competition. What the actual frak?
The question was whether actors other than the central bank could produce money. Clearly they can. For convenience, these tokens are typically fixed to (and often denominated in) some more widely-used currency, but this doesn't invalidate the central point.
If you're looking for a completely independent, free-floating currency, let's just repeat this one more time:
Bitcoin
QuoteIt's no surprise that people like you seek leadership, however corrupt, if that's how your brains work. Fluoride can't be responsible for all this, though. The US is actually one of very few that does it, as I recall, and let's just say the proof is in the pudding as far as that's concerned, but what's the rest of you's excuse?
Yes, yes. You're the only smart person in the world and all the rest of us are idiots. You've said as much before. Let's just say that the discussion so far hasn't borne that out.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Khris on Thu 19/05/2016 16:42:46
Jack, why don't you save us all some time and just tell us what the most "controversial" "theory" is that you accept. At this point I wouldn't be surprised if you turned out to be a flat earther.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Scavenger on Thu 19/05/2016 17:26:00
I'm gonna bet it's something like "Vaccines cause autism" but in my heart of hearts, I'm hoping for The Holy Grail.
Come on, Merovingians! The blood of Jesus flows on! Or The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion! The Reptoid Conspiracy!! There are so many more interesting conspiracy theories we could be talking about! Something you could really make adventure games about. It'd be pretty awesome.
It seems that we're working with more Alex Jones (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pki31BcNwNQ) caliber stuff than David Icke, though. Which is a shame, I really love lizard people. Those shapeshifting scamps!
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Khris on Thu 19/05/2016 17:37:20
The author of the article he linked to boasts about having been referenced by both Icke and Infowars.com, plus he doesn't understand what an RFID chip is, so all bets are off, I guess. ;-D
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Danvzare on Thu 19/05/2016 19:44:48
Since this seems to have turned into a thread that's solely about conspiracy theories (regardless of how stupid they may be), how about this one. Governments propagate conspiracy theories to both discredit conspiracy theorists, and to distract people from the real conspiracies. A good example is using a tin foil hat to stop them from reading your mind, because in actual fact, it would amplify signals not dampen them!
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Thu 19/05/2016 20:28:00
Quote from: Snarky on Thu 19/05/2016 14:10:29 And yet it turns out that you are a climate change denier (or anthropogenic climate change skeptic, if you prefer) and do believe fluoridation is harmful, so those snap judgments were completely on the mark. Imagine that!
Harvard Study Confirms Fluoride Reduces Children's IQ (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-mercola/fluoride_b_2479833.html)
Just google it. How are those snap judgements working out now?
Quote from: Snarky on Thu 19/05/2016 14:10:29 Yeah, your unsubstantiated assertion is not going to cut it here. Also notice that the first part (it's illegal) and the second (it's strictly regulated) contradict each other.
Yeah it's illegal to do it outside of the strict regulatory framework, shouldn't be that hard to work out. So it's wildly impractical for private citizens.
Oh, I can BUY bitcoins to create money, can I? Do you even read what you write?
Bitcoin is a joke. It's sold to morons because the only way it seems like a good idea is in the sales brochure.
Quote from: Ali on Thu 19/05/2016 13:25:00 I don't want to patronise you, but the problem with conspiratorial thinking is we can't talk about the very real problems of modern capitalism without fluoridation and climate change denial irrelevantly popping in. Conspiratorial thinking prefers explanations which are at a practical level unnecessarily complex and at an emotional level very simple and reassuring. Climate change is a scam - that would be nice wouldn't it? The world is run by evil lizards - well, at least it isn't (to borrow Alan Moore's term) rudderless. The financial system is in the hands of a secret cabal, rather than being full of chaos, conflict and contradiction.
It's true. I could do with flying off the handle in frustration and going off on tangents a lot less. But it's a simple matter to find that most countries are in massive debt to their central bank, banks which are all made up of the same few major shareholder banks. What is that if not a cartel, that controls practically the whole planet's finance? The world of finance is not in chaos, but the most obfuscated field there is. It's simple. The whole system is weighed down by massive debt created by bank profiteering. Derivatives alone can destroy the economy a thousand times over if the bill ever came due. You really think it's a coincidence that only Iceland managed to make any real reforms and arrests for the last bubble, of all the countries on the planet? You really think the people responsible got a bail-out out of sheer rudderless luck?
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Snarky on Thu 19/05/2016 20:56:02
Quote from: Snarky on Thu 19/05/2016 14:10:29 And yet it turns out that you are a climate change denier (or anthropogenic climate change skeptic, if you prefer) and do believe fluoridation is harmful, so those snap judgments were completely on the mark. Imagine that!
Harvard Study Confirms Fluoride Reduces Children's IQ (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-mercola/fluoride_b_2479833.html)
Just google it. How are those snap judgements working out now?
I was not debating the merits of the position. I have no expertise or particular knowledge about the health effects of fluoridation, and hence take no position on the matter.
What I said was simply that you can't very well complain that people jump to conclusions about your beliefs when those conclusions are in fact accurate. Reading comprehension much?
Quote
Quote from: Snarky on Thu 19/05/2016 14:10:29 Yeah, your unsubstantiated assertion is not going to cut it here. Also notice that the first part (it's illegal) and the second (it's strictly regulated) contradict each other.
Yeah it's illegal to do it outside of the strict regulatory framework, shouldn't be that hard to work out. So it's wildly impractical for private citizens.
There's a whole industry (http://www.privatemoneylendingguide.com/investors/articles/hard-money-lending-overview) providing the necessary services for people to become private lenders. If you're in a position to lend money in sums where this regulation becomes relevant, you can afford a lawyer.
QuoteOh, I can BUY bitcoins to create money, can I? Do you even read what you write?
Yes indeed. By purchasing bitcoins, you are driving up the price and hence the value of the whole "bitcoin reserve": money is being created.
QuoteBitcoin is a joke. It's sold to morons because the only way it seems like a good idea is in the sales brochure.
Possibly. Possibly there's even a reason for the central bank system. Gasp!
Since you're so keen to make your own money, I'd like to see you do better, though. When can we expect the launch of Jackcoin?
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Khris on Thu 19/05/2016 21:49:51
A HuffPo article by Mercola...! I'm almost disappointed. Who's next? Mike Adams? To quote the Harvard study he's citing:
QuoteIn conclusion, our results support the possibility of adverse effects of fluoride exposures on children's neurodevelopment.
In other words, the results don't prove that fluoride doesn't have adverse effects. Which nobody expected them to do anyway.
Mercola is also a 1st grade quack who claims that HIV doesn't cause AIDS (surprise!).
Given the quality of your sources, you should probably get something from here: click (http://shop.mercola.com/catalog/brain-health,445,0,0.htm) Or maybe this is enough: click (http://www.mercola.com/Downloads/bonus/2020vision/report.htm)
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Fri 20/05/2016 12:41:28
And harvard? Heard of them? As far as western medicine is concerned, It's another case of "we didn't find evidence of this because we didn't look for evidence of this." There's no profit in it.
Impact of fluoride on neurological development in children (http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/features/fluoride-childrens-health-grandjean-choi/)
QuoteEven though many of the studies on children in China differed in many ways or were incomplete, the authors consider the data compilation and joint analysis an important first step in evaluating the potential risk.
Meaning we've been dumping industrial waste products in your drinking water for several decades and some of us thought we should now find out if it could be harmful.
And since we're cherry-picking from the huffington post article...
QuoteThe results suggest that fluoride may be a developmental neurotoxicant that affects brain development at exposures much below those that can cause toxicity in adults ...
You can't even admit you're wrong about one thing. You're pathetic. You would make a terrible scientist, if you didn't already have the job of village idiot.
And all I should do is loan someone $100,000, problem solved? Uh, okay. Thanks, snarky. That's, uh...
I'm sure if my lender reneges I'll get a bail out too, right?
I won't describe the absurdity of being looked down on for having an opinion you admit you know nothing about. You know what? Don't even bother. Leave it to daddy the scientific community, he will protect you. I'm not going to spend another 15 posts trying to explain the immorality of forced medication.
One parting question to all the dipshits who think bitcoin is a good idea simply because those words were repeated to them over and over: What would the energy cost be if bitcoin ever saw mass adoption? What would the effect be on your precious CO² footprint? That's just one of its critical design flaws, available only where cognition exists. Energy wasted for no other reason than you not having the spine to have an idea of your own.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Snarky on Fri 20/05/2016 13:43:34
Edit: On reflection, some stuff doesn't really belong on the forum. Deleted.
You've been going on and on about how you're being discriminated against since you can't create money the way banks do it. Talking about "cronyism", a "monopoly" and how it is "illegal" for private individuals to do what the banks are doing to "create money out of thin air". I've demonstrated over and over that this is not true.
If your complaint is only that you don't have $100,000 to lend out... well, cry me a river. That's like complaining that NASA has a "monopoly" on going to the moon because you don't have your own rocket.
Quote from: Jack on Fri 20/05/2016 12:41:28 One parting question to all the dipshits who think bitcoin is a good idea simply because those words were repeated to them over and over: What would the energy cost be if bitcoin ever saw mass adoption? What would the effect be on your precious CO² footprint? That's just one of its critical design flaws, available only where cognition exists. Energy wasted for no other reason than you not having the spine to have an idea of your own.
Who has been saying Bitcoin is a good idea? I have serious concerns about it and would be reluctant to use it myself. I'm just saying that it disproves central parts of your argument, and that if you're so infuriated by central bank currencies, there is an alternative.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Khris on Fri 20/05/2016 15:37:20
Jack, or may I call you Dr. Mercola?
Quote from: rationalwiki.orgHowever, if you actually read the paper and look at Table 1, the study compared children in areas with recommended levels of fluoride in water â€" the same levels that are introduced in the process of water fluoridation (0.5 to 1.5 mg/L) â€" to children in areas with high fluoride levels (above 1.5 mg/L).[20][21] In other words, and yet again, this paper documents the risks of chronic fluoride toxicity, not water fluoridation.
If you can point out how/why the above isn't true, and how the study showed that water fluoridation is actually harmful, I'll readily change my stance on this. Let's see if YOU can admit being wrong about something.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Calin Leafshade on Sat 21/05/2016 14:47:33
Anything is toxic in high doses. That's why we call them "high doses".
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Mouth for war on Wed 25/05/2016 23:42:42
Damn....Calin...it feels like it's been forever since you posted at the forums or have I just completely missed all activity from you? :D
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Ali on Thu 26/05/2016 00:35:50
Wake up! That's not Calin, it's a Government sock-puppet disseminating misinformation.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Mouth for war on Fri 27/05/2016 01:47:19
Ahhh that's exactly what i was thinking :-D
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Mandle on Fri 27/05/2016 02:59:25
Come on guys!
When I come to this thread I come with a jumbo tub of popcorn prepared, and expect at least 3-4 rambling novella-length posts to savor...
Where's the meat?!
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Khris on Fri 27/05/2016 08:10:47
Novella length? Here you go: http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/new-study-shows-fluoride-safe/ ;)
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Danvzare on Fri 27/05/2016 10:24:13
When I come to this thread I come with a jumbo tub of popcorn prepared, and expect at least 3-4 rambling novella-length posts to savor...
Where's the meat?!
We need Jack. He's the only one who can keep this thread alive. JACK! Where art thou!
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Cassiebsg on Fri 27/05/2016 13:32:18
Hopefully finishing the awards client? :-D
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: monkey424 on Mon 06/06/2016 10:09:10
Quote from: Mandle on Fri 27/05/2016 02:59:25 Come on guys! When I come to this thread I come with a jumbo tub of popcorn prepared, and expect at least 3-4 rambling novella-length posts to savor... Where's the meat?!
You crack me up, little buddy!
Grab your popcorn folks! Let's kick this shit up a notch!
Alternative Knowledge Topic #6 Money Part 2 - Who Funded Hitler?
Seventy years ago the greatest massacre in history began - with financing from the Bank of England and the Federal Reserve System of the United States.
I liked this opening statement so much that I decided to steal it. It's from an article by Nikolai Starikov, a Russian writer and economics expert, and is complementary to my previous posting where I talked a bit about the central banking system. This posting is primarily a summary of Starikov's article, which is available to read here (https://www.sott.net/article/298259-The-Americans-who-funded-Hitler-Nazis-German-economic-miracle-and-World-War-II). Other sources of information are referenced at the end.
Overview
According to Starikov, the United States and Great Britain (more specifically, the financial and industrial elite of those nations) set out to establish absolute control over Germany's financial system after WW1. This was part of a post-war strategy to control the politics of Central Europe and ultimately see the rise of Nazism. The central banks were instrumental in achieving this goal. According to Starikov, the implementation of this strategy included the following steps:
1st: 1919-1924 - Preparing the grounds for massive American financial investments in the German economy
2nd: 1924-1929 - Establishing control over the financial system and funding the National-Socialist movement
3rd: 1929-1933 - Inciting and unleashing a deep economic crisis ensuring the Nazis would rise to power
4th: 1933-1939 - Financial cooperation with the Nazi government and support for its expansionist foreign policy, aimed at preparing and unleashing WW2
I have highlighted in red extreme or conspiratorial views that are expressed by Starikov in this posting to help distinguish these statements from the more factual information.
Step 1: 1919-1924
In January 1919, the Paris Peace Conference was held in Versailles to establish the terms of peace following WW1. International bankers were on the scene (or working behind the scenes) and played a dominant role in the creation of the Treaty of Versailles. The infamous treaty put all war guilt on Germany, crippling the nation with enormous war reparations, and ultimately paved the way for another world war! Some key individuals present at the Peace Conference (mostly associated with the Rothschild family) were:
Paul Warburg - American banker, architect of the US Federal Reserve System
Edward M. House - Rothschild agent
Bernard Baruch - Rothschild agent
Alfred Milner - Rothschild agent
Philip Sassoon - direct descendant of Amschel Rothschild
European countries (primarily the UK and France) owed the US a total of $11 billion in war debts following WW1. The debtor countries, in turn, serviced their war debt using their reparation payments from Germany. The German currency subsequently collapsed.
In 1924, a new project known as the "Dawes Plan" was launched by US banking giant J.P. Morgan and Co. to solve Germany's financial woes. The project was commissioned by Montagu Norman, the Governor of the Bank of England. Another mind behind the project was Reichbank director Hjalmar Schacht, who played an instrumental role in bringing together the Anglo-American and German financial circles. Schacht later served in Hitler's government as Reichbank president.
As a result of the Dawes Plan, Germany was granted $200 million in loans, half of which were provided by Morgan's banks. Although the loans were officially given to Germany to ensure the payment of reparations, in reality, they were designed to restore the country's military-industrial potential. The loans were paid off with shares of German companies, allowing US capital to actively integrate itself into the German economy. As a result, as early as 1929, Germany's industry was second in the world, but to a large extent it was in the hands of America's leading financial-industrial groups. Chemical manufacturer IG Farben, for example, a key component of the German war machine, was under the control of Rockefeller's Standard Oil.
The Wall Street stock market crash occurred in October 1929. Economists have varying opinions about the cause of the crash, with the US Federal Reserve featuring in some theories, however Starikov does not fence-sit on this point. According to Starikov, the US Federal Reserve deliberately engineered this collapse, which was followed by the third phase of the Anglo-American plans. This is obviously not considered a mainstream view (see Wikipedia's entry on the Great Depression for mainstream views) but it is consistent within the context of Starikov's article. I found a couple of postings on some economics forums that seem to support this view:
The instigator of the Wallstreet crash of 1929 was the FED. It was a planned crash. By allowing the people to borrow money to buy stocks and bonds. They even made a new regulation that allowed ordinary people to buy stocks with 90% of the money borrowed. Stock prices already were going up due to the FED money policy that had created a big boom (The roaring 20's) and everybody wanted to benefit from this so it was no more than natural that ordinary people wanted to get their share of the profit. In 1929 the FED announced that the money supply should be contracted because of worries for inflation, and as a consequence the banks from which people had borrowed money for stocks requested the money to be paid back. This is of course not the only reason for the crash, the whole economy of the USA was in a boom because of too much money creation (intentionally) the 29 crash and ensuing depression has many similarities to the current depression. It is also orcestrated by the central banks, but this is not a surprise because all the minor and mayor crashes after '29 have been caused by Central Banking overprinting of fiat money. This always creates first booms and then busts. Nowadays the situation is much more grave then ever because the Western world and most of the rest of the world also for that matter are more or less drowning in borrowed money, too much to pay back. The EU is on the brink of disaster, so is the USA and so are many of the Bric nations
I would say the cause was the Federal Reserve artificially lowering interest rates creating a 'boom' due to everybody borrowing. People borrowed money to invest in commodities, then when the fed raised interest rates it caused severe deflation with a sharp drop in the price of commodities and the stock market. Everybody sold off everything as the dollar grew stronger but there was a big decrease in the money supply so it became hard to expand the economy. That's how I understood the root causes of the great depression
We could have recovered from it much sooner if the government had backed off on spending, FDR's administration did not know proper economics. In 1920 there was a 'great depression' too but no one has ever heard of it. It was caused by the inflation of the money supply due to WW1 if I remember right. It was actually worse than the first year of the real Great Depression in 1929 in terms of unemployment. The government halved spending in 1920, cut taxes, and the Federal reserve stayed out of it and we recovered big time by the next summer. This is what I understand from what I've been learning about economics but you may want to fact check all of this but it gets you started
[close]
The Federal Reserve and J.P. Morgan decided to cease lending to Germany, spurring a banking crisis and economic depression in Central Europe. But, in the thick of financial crisis, the Nazi Party was kept afloat thanks to large donations from IG Farben (c/o Rockefeller's Standard Oil) and industrialists like Fritz Thyssen. Thyssen was a German steel and coal baron with business and financial ties to Prescott Bush, President George W. Bush's grandfather. Prescott Bush was a director and shareholder of a number of companies involved with Thyssen. He was director of the New York-based Union Banking Corporation (UBC), which was a holding company for the Nazis and represented Thyssen's US interests. Bush also worked for Brown Brothers Harriman (BBH), a firm that acted as a US base for Thyssen.
Note that Bank of England Director Montagu Norman was a former BBH partner, and his intimacy with this firm was essential to his management of the ‘Hitler project' (Tarpley & Chaitkin, 2004). On 4 January 1932, Montagu Norman met with Hitler and German Chancellor Franz von Papen to reach a secret agreement to secure funding for the Nazi Party.
Hitler refused to continue payment of reparations; neither Britain nor France forced him to pay up.
Germany acquired loans from the US and UK totalling $3 billion.
August 1934, Rockefeller's Standard Oil purchased 730,000 acres of land in Germany and built large oil refineries that supplied the Nazis with oil.
At the same time, the United States secretly provided Germany with the most modern equipment for airplane factories, which would soon produce German aircraft.
By 1941, when WW2 was in full-swing, US investment in the German economy totalled $475 million; Standard Oil invested $120 million alone; General Motors â€" $35 million; ITT â€" $30 million; and Ford â€" $17.5 million.
Some references:
Nikolai Starikov, (2010), "The Americans who funded Hitler, Nazis, German economic miracle, and World War II", Oriental Review. https://www.sott.net/article/298259-The-Americans-who-funded-Hitler-Nazis-German-economic-miracle-and-World-War-II
William Guy Carr, (1958), Chapter 10: "The Treaty of Versailles", in Pawns In The Game. http://www.lovethetruth.com/books/pawns/10.htm
Kapil De, (2013), "War-Treaty of Versailles 1919", Lies Your Teacher Taught You (blog). http://lovkap.blogspot.com.au/2013/02/war-treaty-of-versailles-1919.html
Ben Aris & Duncan Campbell, (2004), "How Bush's grandfather helped Hitler's rise to power", The Guardian. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar
Webster G. Tarpley & Anton Chaitkin, (2004), Chapter 2: "The Hitler Project", in George Bush: The Unauthorized Biography. http://tarpley.net/online-books/george-bush-the-unauthorized-biography/chapter-2-the-hitler-project/
Author A. Samsonov, (2013), "Who brought Hitler to power", My Future America. http://myfutureamerica.org/?p=2966
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Mandle on Mon 06/06/2016 10:21:49
Hmmmmm...nothing spectacular there in my opinion: Just sounds like the usual kind of war-profiteering that has gone on for centuries if not thousands of years. Controlled by some far-sighted individuals of course, but I don't really see any massive conspiracy or plan for world domination.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Scavenger on Mon 06/06/2016 11:09:50
Yeah, I mean, you can say that the Treaty of Versailles directly caused Hitler's rise to power. The Wall Street Crash also didn't help.
But I mean, did the Coca Cola Company engineer World War 2 so they could sell Fanta made out of cheap ingredients to the Germans, instead of the more expensive coca cola syrup? Or is this literally just more opportunistic profiteering?
You don't have to have a giant conspiracy to want to profit from war. It's what what vultures do when there's the smell of death in the air.
But wait.... looking more closely.... no... it can't be....... it's a
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: miguel on Mon 06/06/2016 13:17:02
Wow! This thread changed a bit since I last visited! Glad to see that things don't change much around here though! Some guy being bashed by the majority because he's defending his conspiracy theories, nothing's new. But I must add something very serious to the discussion. And this is about money, war, peace and women with small ear lobes.
Spoiler
In Portugal, to reach puberty in a faster way, men rub their testicles with some onion and olive oil sauce. They then sit in the grass next to farm animals.
[close]
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Danvzare on Mon 06/06/2016 13:24:15
Quote from: miguel on Mon 06/06/2016 13:17:02 In Portugal, to reach puberty in a faster way, men rub their testicles with some onion and olive oil sauce. They then sit in the grass next to farm animals.
This is now in my top ten most disturbing things that I have ever heard. Why would anyone want to reach puberty faster! Puberty is horrible. If anything, you want it to be over faster.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Cassiebsg on Mon 06/06/2016 19:51:42
miguel, you're wasting your effort on a useless cause. (laugh)
Uhm... in retrospective... that pretty much describe this entire thread... move along, move along... nothing to see her. (laugh)(roll)
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Khris on Tue 07/06/2016 07:56:23
Here's everything you need to know about monkey424's latest post:
The tablet was first designed by Alan Kay in the 1970s (it was called the Dynabook), and this was back before it was even possible to make one (and before anyone even thought it was a good idea). So in other words, Alan Kay designed a shitty tablet computer so that Bill Gates could publish a shitty tablet computer to ensure Apple's rise to power several years later. Illuminati confirmed I think. (nod)
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: monkey424 on Thu 07/07/2016 12:48:28
Quote from: miguel on Mon 06/06/2016 13:17:02 In Portugal, to reach puberty in a faster way, men rub their testicles with some onion and olive oil sauce. They then sit in the grass next to farm animals.
Thank-you for the testicular commentary, Miguel. Sharp and informative as always.
---
Alternative Knowledge Topic #7 False Flag Terrorism
You can Google “false flag†for its definition and historical context. In short, the term describes a covert operation planned and executed by Group A and made to look like Group B did it. Muslim extremists typically feature in the role of Group B.
---
Let's return briefly to 9/11. Osama Bin Laden was identified as the mastermind behind the event - literally less than a minute after the second plane impact. Seriously? Since when are crimes solved like this? Bin Laden's name was then repeated over and over on our television sets, firmly establishing him as the villain. What a load of frog shit!
As you probably know, I've written extensively about 9/11 on these forums and WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED. A summary of this is available here (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=51989.260#msg_636528968). Please read.
(https://imageshack.com/i/pob4LlVxg)
One of the problems with 9/11 is that it involved highly advanced secret technology, and this "sci-fi" element makes the reality of 9/11 very hard to swallow. In comparison, the 2005 London bombings (otherwise known as 7/7) is more "down to Earth". It is nowhere near as complex and mind-boggling as 9/11 in terms of the technology involved, and I would suggest this makes it easier to comprehend as a false flag event.
The 2005 London Bombings Official Report is available here (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/228837/1087.pdf). The reported timeline of events is illustrated as follows.
(https://imageshack.com/i/pmcTiI3lp)
Issue #1
The official report says the lads entered Luton station at 7:15 and go through the ticket barriers together.
However...
The timestamp on this CCTV footage shows them entering Luton station at 7:21.
(https://imageshack.com/i/poLNky04j)
Curiously, the official report does show this image with the caption "CCTV of the 4 entering Luton station", but the timestamp is cropped.
Another CCTV image shows the lads were still in the car park at 7:19, verifying they didn't enter the station at 7:15.
(https://imageshack.com/i/poq7t7Mop)
Issue #2
The report says the lads caught the 7:40 train. However, they couldn't have possibly caught this train...
It was cancelled!!
(https://imageshack.com/i/pmhByv0Cp)
According to the above timetable, other trains were severely delayed that day too. The Home Office eventually revised their story, a year later, with the latest narrative now stating the lads caught the 7:24 train. Curiously, a sequence of CCTV images was subsequently released showing the lads entering Luton station at 7:21, casually making their way to the platform and catching the 7:24 train.
(https://imageshack.com/i/pmh34LVnp)
Surely this CCTV footage was available to the Home Office when they first drafted their report, so how could they possibly get the train time wrong?
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Danvzare on Thu 07/07/2016 21:39:33
Quote from: monkey424 on Thu 07/07/2016 12:48:28 Let's return briefly to 9/11. Osama Bin Laden was identified as the mastermind behind the event - literally less than a minute after the second plane impact. Seriously? Since when are crimes solved like this? Bin Laden's name was then repeated over and over on our television sets, firmly establishing him as the villain. What a load of frog shit!
Let me stop you there. I must admit, I don't know how anyone came to know it was Osama Bin Laden. Although I've never looked into it, so it would probably be ignorance on my part. What I do know though, is that if you want to be a terrorist and thus terrorize people, you generally want people to know that you did it. In short, I'd be more concerned with a conspiracy if we didn't have someone to blame after such an event. I mean, someone will want the credit for something like that, to help further their cause. If people don't know you did it, then how do they know to fear you? For all they know, PETA could've done it in an act of protest against cruelty to animals!
So that's how crimes like that are solved so easily. Someone takes credit.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Crimson Wizard on Fri 08/07/2016 11:32:00
Ahem... taking credit for a crime is not considered a proof on its own in contemporary criminal law. BTW, what you say on terrorist gaining fame for themselves is right, but this is also the reason why usually a bunch of terrorists (groups) make claims in performing acts of terrorism (while only one may be actually responsible).
On other hand, I cannot resist making an observation that this thread is becoming monkey424's newsthread, rather than discussion, since apparently he avoids discussing anything himself :).
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Danvzare on Fri 08/07/2016 12:48:28
Ahem... taking credit for a crime is not considered a proof on its own in contemporary criminal law. BTW, what you say on terrorist gaining fame for themselves is right, but this is also the reason why usually a bunch of terrorists (groups) make claims in performing acts of terrorism (while only one may be actually responsible).
Good point, just because someone takes credit, doesn't mean they did it. Thanks for correcting me on that. :-D
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: NickyNyce on Mon 11/07/2016 00:29:55
Let's return to the 911 subject for a quick second. THIS IS ACTUALLY WHAT HAPPENED during that thread. You and Judy woods theory fell flat on its face when you started talking about mysterious cars on the FDR that caught fire, and how paint was stripped from them.
We debunked her pictures and some other stuff, and once that happened by us game makers and players (no rocket scientists here), it makes anything else that you or Judy Wood say, impossible to believe. It actually means that she was not showing evidence at all, and that you fell for it, hook, line and sinker.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Snarky on Mon 11/07/2016 19:12:20
I've split the psychology discussions/demonstrations off into a separate thread here: http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=53721.0
While no doubt well meant, I feel we ought to be careful about posting at length with arguments that appear to suggest that some forum members are delusional.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Khris on Mon 11/07/2016 19:38:44
I will suggest that some forum members are applying an extreme form of double standard, where anything "official" is put under immense scrutiny while sources that confirm their biases or pet "theories" are believed without so much as a hint of skepticism. Nothing delusional about it, it's just very ignorant.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Ali on Mon 11/07/2016 20:57:36
Quote from: Snarky on Mon 11/07/2016 19:12:20 I've split the psychology discussions/demonstrations off into a separate thread here: http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=53721.0
While no doubt well meant, I feel we ought to be careful about posting at length with arguments that appear to suggest that some forum members are delusional.
I didn't mean to derail the thread, or to imply that anyone was mentally ill. (Not that I'd want to stigmatise mental illness, we're all capable of holding delusional beliefs).
I'd argue that the links I posted are on topic. Ronson places the theories in context gives his subjects a chance to explain their theories in detail. You could watch his doc about Ruby Ridge and come out of it convinced that the New World Order really exists. But I think he provides a gentle, sympathetic, humorous rebuttal to these theories which takes into account human frailty.
But I see your point, and accept your decision to shill for the Zionist censors split the threads.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Danvzare on Mon 11/07/2016 21:48:12
Quote from: Khris on Mon 11/07/2016 19:38:44 I will suggest that some forum members are applying an extreme form of double standard, where anything "official" is put under immense scrutiny while sources that confirm their biases or pet "theories" are believed without so much as a hint of skepticism. Nothing delusional about it, it's just very ignorant.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
That having been said, I understand the splitting of the thread. After all, this thread is about conspiracy theories, not the debunking of them. (laugh)
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: NickyNyce on Tue 12/07/2016 00:49:24
Bin Laden was threatening the US long before 911 and leading right up to it. So yes, he was immediately suspect #1. Very simple to see why his name came up right away.
Did you ever see a video of Bin Laden saying he didn't do it? Never.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Tue 12/07/2016 11:24:46
I had in mind some ideas for posts in other formats, but it seems now the time for warning people is over. The inevitable economic collapse, which fringe economists have been talking about since before the one in 2008, is now under way. It's already dwarfed the one in 2008. I guess people think it's going to get better somehow. They assume that currency issuance is not a blatant fraud which ensures an ever-deepening pit of debt with no legal way to reverse it, and they certainly have no idea of the size of derivatives relative to the world economy. The people have neither the required will nor the interest to change this, so it will keep getting worse.
Meanwhile, Murica is about to explode into civil war. After martial law comes down, the citizens of the US will find themselves at war with part of one of the most technologically advanced and heavily-armed militaries on the planet. Imagine for a moment what that's like, and if you find words to describe it, let me know. (Oh, I thought of one. It'll be like Palestine, with more guns) The cause of the unrest is largely financial (amongst other things which I won't go into here), so it's not going away either.
NATO and Russia have been making unprecedented moves of military equipment over the last few weeks, as part of NATO's undeniable positioning to invade Russia. Historically, empires collapsing (which have been invariably caused by finance by the way), have found no other way to try and save themselves than war. The US has been demonstrating this for more than a decade but apparently the world has a hearing problem. Billions of people will be dead once this is over.
The people who had hoped that these scary things would go away if they are ignored are going to find themselves playing catch-up under very difficult conditions. A lot of us are going to find ourselves dead.
We now return to our sponsored feature: et Circenses.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Mandle on Tue 12/07/2016 13:03:57
Aw crap...and I just renewed my gym membership for another year...
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Danvzare on Tue 12/07/2016 13:57:10
Well Jack, if there truly is an Illuminati (or equivilent), than I'm sure there's nothing to worry about. The hidden organization that secretly controls the world, will ensure all of those bad things don't happen. :-D
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Crimson Wizard on Tue 12/07/2016 14:04:24
One thing I was always baffled about is that warners always warn about dread things coming but never explain what all the warned people are assumed to do.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Scavenger on Tue 12/07/2016 14:12:15
Usually they tell people to "wake up" and "teach the controversy".
Like, Zeitgeist literally ends with coloured lights and vague verbal gesturing that doesn't really mean anything. I think the end goal of these conspiracy theories is not to do anything, but to get people to spread them. They have no solutions, only a vague sense of ease that the world is going to hell but at least they're not unawoken sheeple. Then if the world goes to hell, they can say "I told you this would happen", and if it doesn't, they can rest on their vague paranoia that it will and they're prepared for it.
I mean, when there's a world spanning conspiracy with a group of people pulling the strings that is so powerful nobody can identify them or touch them, what can you do but act like every other Doomsday cult and just vaguely wave your arms around and say "the end is nigh"?
I mean at that point you're believing in a vengeful and irrational death god, in a business suit.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Snarky on Tue 12/07/2016 14:37:46
Quote from: Jack on Tue 12/07/2016 11:24:46I had in mind some ideas for posts in other formats, but it seems now the time for warning people is over. The inevitable economic collapse, which fringe economists have been talking about since before the one in 2008, is now under way. It's already dwarfed the one in 2008. I guess people think it's going to get better somehow. They assume that currency issuance is not a blatant fraud which ensures an ever-deepening pit of debt with no legal way to reverse it, and they certainly have no idea of the size of derivatives relative to the world economy. The people have neither the required will nor the interest to change this, so it will keep getting worse.
Meanwhile, Murica is about to explode into civil war. After martial law comes down, the citizens of the US will find themselves at war with part of one of the most technologically advanced and heavily-armed militaries on the planet. Imagine for a moment what that's like, and if you find words to describe it, let me know. (Oh, I thought of one. It'll be like Palestine, with more guns) The cause of the unrest is largely financial (amongst other things which I won't go into here), so it's not going away either.
Could we have a timeframe on this prediction? If this doesn't come to pass, at what point will you admit to having been wrong?
QuoteNATO and Russia have been making unprecedented moves of military equipment over the last few weeks, as part of NATO's undeniable positioning to invade Russia. Historically, empires collapsing (which have been invariably caused by finance by the way), have found no other way to try and save themselves than war. The US has been demonstrating this for more than a decade but apparently the world has a hearing problem. Billions of people will be dead once this is over.
Undeniable? I do deny it. I do think a conflict between Russia and NATO is a possibility, unfortunately, but again, what timeframe are you talking here?
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Danvzare on Tue 12/07/2016 15:36:12
So in other words, they're the equivalent of chain emails? Which in turn must mean that chain emails are conspiracy theories. Wow, things just took a turn for the paranormal. :-\
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Khris on Tue 12/07/2016 19:55:12
Holy shit.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Wed 13/07/2016 13:15:38
Okay, never really thought about it like that. I guess to me the information, if true, suggested its own courses of action. When you realise that the same few 200 year old banks are now practically in complete control of world finance, and collecting taxes in perpetuity from nearly every nation, well you start paying attention to finance, don't you? A little more dredging through nonsense and you realise that the economy is designed to fail and about to go off. I mean it doesn't take any belief to know what it means when costs keep rising and wages keep shrinking, right? Or I guess you still think it's going to get better somehow?
A real person who has spent time with this material, I think, is unlikely to tell you what to do, because most of us know that the behaviour of always looking to others for what to do is exactly the problem. The world will never be free until people are able to think for themselves. Power attracts the corrupt.
So what do you do? How do you stand against the will of the people with all the resources? Well, one day you realise that everything they have is pretty much all based on belief. Their pretend money is already experiencing a critical loss of confidence. Everything they own, even all the land which they could never use in 10 lifetimes, all based on belief. Our belief. All this could change in a single day if the world says enough. So the only real thing of value that they have is the tacit consent of people who have no idea what they're up to. This is why information by itself is a large part of the solution. True financial reform would turn this planet into a utopia compared to what it is now.
How much would it cost to feed the starving for a year? How much was spent propping up "too big to fail" banks against the consequences of their own actions?
These things always take longer than I think they will. Really we're well into it, and have long since passed the point of no return.
You didn't hear about the post brexit crash which made 2008 look like 1987? It's not enough that the "tin foil hatters of finance" have been predicting this for years when you were gobbling up obama's green shoots? You want more? It'll be too late when CNN is allowed to tell the truth.
So apparently central banks are buying assets like crazy to make the markets look alive, but they can only do that for so long. If you kept an eye on the volume of trades as well as the trading you'd know that the markets have basically been propped up since 2008. These are life support measures and they are now failing.
Quote from: Danvzare on Tue 12/07/2016 13:57:10 Well Jack, if there truly is an Illuminati (or equivilent), than I'm sure there's nothing to worry about. The hidden organization that secretly controls the world, will ensure all of those bad things don't happen. :-D
They have a starving tiger by the tail.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Snarky on Wed 13/07/2016 13:47:02
Oh dammit, I wasn't paying attention, and thought I was talking to monkey. If I had realized, I wouldn't have bothered.
I'll just point out that "at some unspecified point in the future there will be another economic crisis and/or war and it will TOTALLY confirm that I'm right about everything" is about as meaningful a prediction as a psychic's message from the spirit world that "someone in your family (or someone you used to know, or someone you met once, or someone you were a big fan of) is dead".
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Danvzare on Wed 13/07/2016 14:38:35
Quote from: Jack on Wed 13/07/2016 13:15:38 So what do you do? How do you stand against the will of the people with all the resources? Well, one day you realise that everything they have is pretty much all based on belief. Their pretend money is already experiencing a critical loss of confidence. Everything they own, even all the land which they could never use in 10 lifetimes, all based on belief. Our belief. All this could change in a single day if the world says enough. So the only real thing of value that they have is the tacit consent of people who have no idea what they're up to. This is why information by itself is a large part of the solution. True financial reform would turn this planet into a utopia compared to what it is now.
You do realize that everyone has always known that if we did that, then we'd be living in a Utopia. But that no one has ever been willing to do that, hence why we created all of these belief systems to get us to this stage to begin with? We're humans! We're lucky to even have what we currently do! What you're suggesting is nothing more than an idea of what we want, but ultimately can never have due to our basic nature. It's like Star Trek fans getting along with Star Wars fans. It's purely hypothetical! If it wasn't for all of this economical bullshit, we wouldn't even have this! This being everything you see around you, including the internet!
Quote from: Snarky on Wed 13/07/2016 13:47:02 I'll just point out that "at some unspecified point in the future there will be another economic crisis and/or war and it will TOTALLY confirm that I'm right about everything" is about as meaningful a prediction as a psychic's message from the spirit world that "someone in your family (or someone you used to know, or someone you met once, or someone you were a big fan of) is dead".
I'm pretty sure you could have stopped at "someone in your family is dead", because everyone has a family member who is dead. You know, unless you willed yourself into existence or something.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Mandle on Wed 13/07/2016 15:19:51
It costs about a dollar a day donation from first world people...
BUT:
How much does it cost to actually deploy the food that was bought with said money into the regions that need it the most?
WELL, first you have to have a bunch of workers already in the region that need support, and on top of that you have to pay the shippage...
THEN...You need people at the port the food arrives at every single day just to make sure that the food isn't stolen...
THEN...You need people overseeing the people who are supposed to be at the port when the food arrives...Just to make sure they showed up for work...
THEN...You need a group of trustworthy people in a stable position of government in the starving country to oversee the entire operation and not skim the donated money for their own gains...
SO after all that...
Yeah....I want to ask as well...
How much would it cost to feed the starving for a year?
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Danvzare on Wed 13/07/2016 19:52:15
Why feed them? Why not give them the money directly? It would be cheaper and more effective. But now we're getting off topic.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Wed 13/07/2016 20:20:24
It's not another crisis. It's the same crisis, it didn't go anywhere, it didn't get any better. It got worse.
Quote from: Danvzare on Wed 13/07/2016 14:38:35 We're humans! We're lucky to even have what we currently do! What you're suggesting is nothing more than an idea of what we want, but ultimately can never have due to our basic nature. It's like Star Trek fans getting along with Star Wars fans. It's purely hypothetical! If it wasn't for all of this economical bullshit, we wouldn't even have this! This being everything you see around you, including the internet!
I'm sorry but this is divisive BS. This is not about attempting to reach some ideal of perfect harmony with all peoples, this is about conducting world finance in a way that is not blatantly criminal and severely detrimental to its host. It's not even about fixing it that much. At this point it's more about preventing it from getting worse. All we have now is a testament of what we could have if world finance were not constantly being depleted of its capital.
How much would it cost to feed the starving for a year?
Your plan would not only be wasteful as you have pointed out, but also collapse the local agricultural sector. How about instead we don't speculate on food in the world market so that people living on the bread line are not starved to death by people gambling in the fed's casino? Lives saved at the cost of non-productive profit. Nah. Let's think of the stupidest shit possible so that we don't have to do anything.
I didn't want to get into an argument again but here I am, arguing away. For closing I will say this: The cost and effort required of the most basic preparations is very little. Seed is wealth.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Crimson Wizard on Wed 13/07/2016 21:10:23
Quote from: Jack on Wed 13/07/2016 13:15:38 So what do you do? How do you stand against the will of the people with all the resources? Well, one day you realise that everything they have is pretty much all based on belief. <...> So the only real thing of value that they have is the tacit consent of people who have no idea what they're up to. This is why information by itself is a large part of the solution.
This is where I honestly disagree. Even if they cannot explain all the problem in detail, I think most people around already know all that, at least at intuitive or emotional level. Ask anyone and they tell you that "bankers are bad", and all. The thing is that they won't know what to do then. I mean, this sincerely baffles me: you are correctly pointing out that "the behaviour of always looking to others for what to do is exactly the problem". But this logically leads to the conclusion that people who can "think for themselves" will find this information without anyones help, and for others it will be completely useless.
This is like with any issue, big or small. If you just go around spreading information, you don't achieve much. The achievement comes only with organizing people for some action. Without that you just make them disturbed for limited period of time. They then go release their energy on endless discussions, protests, outcries in the social networks, etc. (Seriously, I can even make parallels with AGS project here...)
(E: removed couple of excessive paragraphs.)
Here is also an example of what I mean by my previous remark (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=53210.msg636539188#msg636539188): you tell that "All this could change in a single day if the world says enough". This is just another obscure phrase. What do you mean by that exactly? I am not asking for instructions here, but I am being very curious of how do you see this hypothetical event.
So far it looks to me like this "solution" would demand people to change their human nature first.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Mandle on Thu 14/07/2016 01:20:14
Quote from: Jack on Wed 13/07/2016 20:20:24 How about instead we don't speculate on food in the world market so that people living on the bread line are not starved to death by people gambling in the fed's casino? Lives saved at the cost of non-productive profit.
Ah...sorry for my earlier post. I didn't realize that this is what you were talking about.
As for what you just said in the quoted section: I 100% agree and have been raving on for years to anyone who will listen that anyone who buys food product on the stock market should actually have to take ownership of said food physically before they are allowed to sell it again.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: monkey424 on Thu 14/07/2016 11:28:25
Judy Wood's material has not been debunked - not by anyone here, or in the wider world. A poor understanding and misrepresentation of the evidence leads to apparent debunking. Deliberate misrepresentation of evidence and subsequent “debunking†is something that professional “debunkers†or spin-doctors do (many involved in the so-called “truth movement†it seems). What happened on 9/11 is beyond most people's comprehension. It's a bit “sci-fi†for lack of a better description, but this is better than believing in cartoon physics. The NIST report did not actually address how those towers came down because they can't explain it in terms of classical or conventional physics. Please read my last post on the topic for clarification, here (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=51989.260#msg_636528968).
---
Quote from: Crimson Wizard on Fri 08/07/2016 11:32:00 I cannot resist making an observation that this thread is becoming monkey424's newsthread, rather than discussion, since apparently he avoids discussing anything himself :).
Yes, I'm avoiding discussion somewhat. But I've noticed that the discussions usually avoid the specifics of what I post about and end up going off on a tangent. No one has yet addressed the anomalies I raised in my last 7/7 post.
I've read through the discussions but I don't think I have anything particular to add to the broad range of global issues that people are discussing. I prefer to stay focused on one topic at a time. The topic at the moment is false flag terrorism. I'm not interested in people's beliefs about this, that, or whatever. I intend for this thread to be more scientific. I'm interested in the things that don't add up - which evidently always seem to apply to the “official†version of recent terror events.
(https://imageshack.com/i/pob4LlVxg)
Link back to initial 7/7 posting (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=53210.100#msg_636538892)
We've looked at some anomalies regarding train times and CCTV timestamps. Let's now look at some other problems with the official story. Much of the following content is related to the 7/7 Inquest held in 2011 over several months. It should be noted that the Inquest was not held to question the official narrative, however the Inquest did bring greater clarity to the facts of the event as well as new information. The Inquest transcripts are available here (http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20120216072438/http://7julyinquests.independent.gov.uk/hearing_transcripts/index.htm).
The four alleged bombers
(https://imageshack.com/i/pnqsfnSIp)
Evidence of suicide bombers
The evidence of suicide bombers is sketchy. Initial death counts excluded the ‘bombers', with the police adding one to each of the tallies later that day so that the accused would be included in the count. It appears the ‘bombers' were blown to smithereens and body parts were hard to come by. ‘Evidence' turned up a day or two later, including Khan's torso (how did they miss that initially?) and Tanweer's backbone.
It seems the scarcity of body parts was made up for by an abundance of ID discovered at each site. Sometimes, the ID of an individual was found at more than one site - for example, Khan's ID was apparently found at all four sites! ID typically included passports, driver's licence, mobile phones, and even mobile phone insurance. Some bottles of hydrogen peroxide were also ‘found' on the Piccadilly Line (which is of course the calling-card of your modern terrorist).
There was also a substantial lack of credible witnesses to the accused being present at the explosion sites.
Lack of CCTV
This CCTV image below appears to be the last of the four together at King's Cross station. We do not see any CCTV of Khan, Tanweer or Lindsay after this; most importantly, we do not see them on or around the trains that blew up. And apart from some CCTV of Hussain lingering around King's Cross, we do not see CCTV of him on or around the bus that blew up. An article on this here (http://77inquests.blogspot.com.au/2010/10/final-curtain-cctv-rich-to-cctv-fail.html).
(https://imageshack.com/i/pnlmdnnBp)
DNA testing
The official report states that “DNA has identified the four at the four separate bombsitesâ€. Someone's DNA being found at a scene does not prove they were there at the specific time doing the specific thing you accuse them of doing (it would be nice to corroborate with say CCTV and witnesses). That argument aside, however, I want to focus on a particular case â€" that of DNA identification for Khan. In the Inquest, forensic scientist Timothy Clayton said he received copies of DNA from a muscle sample (allegedly from Khan) as well as Khan's parents, Tika Khan and Mamida Begum. An individual's DNA can be matched to that of their biological parents. The test results indicated a positive match, however, as Clayton was just given ‘copies' of the DNA profiles, there was no independent method to confirm their origin. Such confirmation would be handy since it turns out that Mamida Begum was probably not Khan's biological mother, but rather his step-mother who happened to have the same name (Khan's real mother had died a few years earlier). An article on this here (http://77inquests.blogspot.com.au/2010/11/identification-of-mohammed-sidique-khan.html).
Type of explosives
We know that three trains and one bus blew up, however, the explosive material responsible remains unclear and was subject to a forever changing story. Initial forensic experts reported traces of a military grade explosive known as C4 found at the crime scenes along with evidence of timed detonators. This would negate the idea of suicide bombers, as this type of explosive is too advanced. The alleged explosive material quickly morphed into TATP, a highly volatile and unstable compound. The TATP story persisted for a couple of years and was then replaced in 2007 by the even more outrageous one involving some vague mixture of hydrogen peroxide and black pepper. Forensic experts at the Inquest were apparently baffled by this mysterious hitherto unheard-of mix, described as “unique†by Clifford Todd and “a novel, improvised material previously unseen by this laboratory†by Kim Simpson. It appears the peroxide + pepper mix was not exactly endorsed by the experts, and no forensic chemist to date has been able to identify the primary explosive mix.
A good read on the subject by Dr Nick Kollerstrom is here (http://terroronthetube.co.uk/inquest-articles/77-what-went-bang/).
Reconstructing the scene
Initial reports indicating that military grade explosives were involved are more consistent with the evidence. The Tube explosions were powerful enough to rip large holes through the respective carriages, with witness testimony suggesting that the explosions came from beneath the floor. This idea is supported by the fact that many casualties lost legs and feet in the explosions.
Schematic diagrams provided by the Metropolitan Police were shown at the Inquest illustrating the position of passengers and alleged bombers at each site based on witness testimony. Consider one such diagram for Edgware Road, shown below.
(https://imageshack.com/i/pmpZrzxHp)
Khan, the alleged suicide bomber for this site, is absent from any CCTV images or witness statements, with the exception of Daniel Biddle whose testimony places Khan in the row of seats as shown. We can only guess why no photographic evidence of the train wreckage is available. Nevertheless, the hole locations (yes, more than one hole) can be ascertained from witness statements (see annotations in the diagram). We have a rather strange scene. It seems there were probably three separate holes in the carriage (with a person falling into each one) and none of them compatible with the alleged position of Khan.
This and more detail in regards to the Edgware Road site, compiled by Dr Nick Kollerstrom, is contained in articles here (http://terroronthetube.co.uk/inquest-articles/the-phantom-image-of-khan-and-the-moveable-crater/), and here (http://terroronthetube.co.uk/2010/11/18/two-holes-in-floor-of-edgware-road-coach/).
A considerable number of witnesses, many from inside the carriages where bombs were meant to have gone off, reported feelings of electrocution and other phenomena suggestive of electrical activity. Statements from witnesses best describe the scene. Selected statements are below:
(https://imageshack.com/i/pm9uoaKyp)
No post-mortems
No post-mortems were performed on the dead. Why? Isn't it customary or obligatory to perform post-mortems? Or would the examinations have revealed something that contradicts the official narrative?
Furthermore, it seems that a special room had been set up to receive the dead of the 7/7 bombings in a temporary morgue built on army land, the contract for which arrived on the contractor's desk on 6/7/2005, the day before the massacres.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Thu 14/07/2016 11:42:42
Never thought I would be posting again so soon, but have a look at this:
You've heard about pokemon go by now, I'm sure. I barely hear about the worst terror attacks, but I sure got an earful of this game. The interesting part about it is that it requires people to go to locations on a real world map of their surroundings and take pictures of the pokemon there.
Anyway, it turns out that the company that makes it formerly produced a game (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingress_(video_game)) where players were awarded for walking certain paths. The company having been part of google, it's obvious to see the uses google would have for such data in google maps (accurate walk time data, most obviously). The game was not very successful, but its spiritual successor is now based on a very successful franchise, and has gone viral to say the least. Already there have been... incidents (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fmYrmSa2s8) resulting from people playing this game.
Now, this isn't a warning, or news really. But given the details, is it really such a stretch to consider that this may well be a thinly-veiled way to collect specific geo-tagged photographs for sale to a third party?
Google's Ingress is more than a game, its a potential data exploitation disaster (https://pando.com/2012/11/19/googles-ingress-is-more-than-a-game-its-a-potential-data-exploitation-disaster/)
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Danvzare on Thu 14/07/2016 11:53:33
Quote from: Jack on Thu 14/07/2016 11:42:42 Anyway, it turns out that the company that makes it formerly produced a game (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingress_(video_game)) where players were awarded for walking certain paths.
I already knew that! :-D It just goes to show how much a popular license can affect a game. As a matter of fact, from what I've heard, Ingress was a much better game than Pokemon GO.
Quote from: Jack on Thu 14/07/2016 11:42:42 Now, this isn't a warning, or news really. But given the details, is it really such a stretch to consider that this may well be a thinly-veiled way to collect specific geo-tagged photographs for sale to a third party?
Well I'm sure anyone with half a mind, could just use Facebook and get those photos for free. Because people take pictures of everything nowadays. But I get what you mean. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Pokemon GO has some extra stuff built into it which companies (probably Google) can use for other things.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Crimson Wizard on Thu 14/07/2016 12:55:00
Judy Wood's material has not been debunked - not by anyone here, or in the wider world.
Lol, best course of action is to deny someone ever proved your wrong. :)
I will speak just for myself here, but there was at least one part of evidence you posted (I do not know whether it was Judy Wood's evidence, or your own though), that I personally addressed and explained not to be an evidence: http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=51989.msg636514524#msg636514524 And here is your own reply to that:
Quote from: monkey424 link=http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=51989.msg636514942#msg636514942 My mistake. I wasn't sure that you'd read the right part of the dialog. I see your point now.
I accept what you're saying, i.e. Michael Ober not remembering the sound of the building hitting the ground due to being in a state of shock / confusion
So, not only I showed that certain "evidence" is not an evidence, but you even admitted it. Although you tried to shrug that off immediately as being "not a particularly strong argument on its own, but in the context of more concrete evidence <...> this little piece of information plays more of a supporting roll."
The thing is that, in my strongest opinion, that "evidence" was actually what you call "Deliberate misrepresentation". It is when the supporter of a theory takes someones words, cuts a certain piece out of context, and makes it look like an evidence supporting his/her claims. I basically just showed you that someone was deliberately forging an "evidence"; perhaps not an important one, but the sole fact is already significant. Well, you preferred to ignore that.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Mandle on Thu 14/07/2016 12:58:04
How about all those cars that she claims spontaneously burst into flames on FDR Drive but were conclusively shown to have actually been present at Ground Zero and later towed to FDR to clear the way for emergency vehicles?
I remember a bunch of us were quite able to point out these exact cars in several photos...Including a policecar with the exact same ID number...
If that's not the very definition of debunked then my dictionary must be broken...
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Scavenger on Thu 14/07/2016 13:58:17
Lol, best course of action is to deny someone ever proved your wrong. :)
Of course, the pattern is:
Present a buttload of stuff, just keep posting it, regardless of it's veracity.
Someone debunks one bit of it.
Say that the other person is cherry picking arguments and ignoring the important points.
Deny that any of it has been debunked so that your list of arguments remains big and meaty, and then post even more of them.
It's a classic manuever called Gish Galloping (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gish_Gallop). The only way to beat it is to stop the conspiracy theorist from making 100000000 arguments at once. That's why they love live debates and forums. They can inundate people with walls of text that take way more effort to research and debunk than it does to just post it. Then, when everyone's tired of these walls of text, the conspiracy theorist wins. Of course Monkey424 would say that "this particular piece is more of a supporting bit of evidence" because Judy Wood has no decisive evidence. It's ALL supporting bits of evidence that, if taken out, doesn't matter. And when one bit is taken out, there still isn't decisive evidence supporting the theory. It's just a mass of anecdotes and assumptions. You'd have to go through pretty much all of it bit by bit and explain how it works, and that's just not worth it.
Because Judy Wood never gave decisive evidence that such a weapon she describes exists in the first place. (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Extraordinary_claims_require_extraordinary_evidence)
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Mandle on Thu 14/07/2016 15:22:17
Cheers to Scavenger for his Gish Galloping link to RationalWiki...
Which I then followed down their rabbit-hole of other rational debating terms until I found the universal one at the heart of all flawed theories:
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Bullshit
(And watch the video at the bottom of page that in just a few minutes of viewing time knocks 99% of "Alternative Knowledge" into a cocked hat!)
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Danvzare on Thu 14/07/2016 16:07:52
Quote from: Mandle on Thu 14/07/2016 15:22:17 (And watch the video at the bottom of page that in just a few minutes of viewing time knocks 99% of "Alternative Knowledge" into a cocked hat!)
That was actually a very good video. I should recommend that to any religious fanatics I ever see. Oh, and obviously conspiracy theorists, but I think I'd have a better chance at convincing religious fanatics that their thinking is flawed.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Khris on Thu 14/07/2016 18:10:54
Another noteworthy article is this: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Crank
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Mandle on Sat 16/07/2016 10:43:34
"All of this has the practical upshot of rendering the debate a fantastic waste of calories."
(laugh)(laugh)(laugh)
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Sat 16/07/2016 14:27:50
This is a post I had in mind for a while, but never really had time to compile. I've seen people here say something to the effect of "the fact that historical false flags exist cannot be used as proof of current false flags". While this is true, they typically then go on to make the claim that "the truth wants to be free". Sure, if you wait long enough, and your whole planet is not incinerated by stupidity in the meantime, everything will eventually be declassified.
What follows here is an incomplete list of recognised false flag attacks carried out by governments, with the approximate time it took for the truth to come to light. This is proof of nothing other than the fact that these things can be done and have been done, and that we have most likely not received the last declassification.
Mukden Incident (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mukden_Incident) The Mukden Incident, or Manchurian Incident, was a staged event engineered by Japanese military personnel as a pretext for the Japanese invasion in 1931 of northeastern China, known as Manchuria. 1931 - 1932 (1 year)
Reichstag fire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_fire) Used by Hitler to pass an emergency decree to suspend civil liberties in order to counter the ruthless confrontation of the Communist Party of Germany. 1933 - 1945 (12 years)
Gleiwitz incident (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleiwitz_incident) Pretext for the German invasion of Poland, official start of WWII. 1939 - 1945 (6 years)
Celle Hole (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celle_Hole) Attempted prison break initiated by the German government in order to implicate the red army faction. 1978 - 1986 (8 years)
Lavon Affair (http://www.ynetnews.com/Ext/Comp/ArticleLayout/CdaArticlePrintPreview/1,2506,L-3065838,00.html#n) Israeli mossad agents are caught firebombing sites frequented by foreigners in Cairo and Alexandria in an effort to ruin Egypt in the eyes of the US. 1954 (caught in the act but Israel denied it for many decades apparently)
Operation Embarrass (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2010/09/19/mi6-attacked-jewish-refugee-ships-after-wwii.html) A false flag bombing campaign MI6 carried out to try to stem Jewish immigration. 1947 - 2010 (63 years)
Gulf of Tonkin incident (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_incident) Alleged unprovoked aggression by NVA which turned out to be initiated by US warning shots. Granted President Lyndon B. Johnson the authority to assist any Southeast Asian country whose government was considered to be jeopardized by "communist aggression" 1964 - 2005 (41 years)
Shelling of Mainila (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelling_of_Mainila) The Shelling of Mainila was a military incident where the Soviet Union's Red Army shelled the Russian village of Mainila, declared that the fire originated from Finland across the nearby border and claimed to have had losses in personnel. Through that false flag operation, the Soviet Union gained a great propaganda boost and a casus belli for launching the Winter War four days later. 1939 - ~1994 (55 years)
Bonus flavour: Were weapons planted on this protester? (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/3136382.stm)
(And watch the video at the bottom of page that in just a few minutes of viewing time knocks 99% of "Alternative Knowledge" into a cocked hat!)
I'm sorry to say that I think Maddox's video is utter crap. It's not a good presentation of the scientific method in the first place (the model is highly idealized and simplified), it is simply not true that there can't be good reasons to believe something without going through that particular process, and his examples elide the distinction between "the experiments don't support the hypothesis", "experiments have not been carried out (yet)" (which isn't an argument either way), and "no experiment could possibly show whether the hypothesis is true". Overall, a terrible, terrible job of explaining the process of rational thinking.
Quote from: Jack on Sat 16/07/2016 14:27:50 Reichstag fire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_fire) Used by Hitler to pass an emergency decree to suspend civil liberties in order to counter the ruthless confrontation of the Communist Party of Germany. 1933 - 1945 (12 years)
While it is often supposed that the Nazis were responsible, historical evidence tends to indicate that it was in fact the work of a lone madman, which Hitler merely capitalized on.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Sun 17/07/2016 11:25:18
Yes, the Saudi government helped the 9/11 terrorists (http://nypost.com/2016/07/15/yes-the-saudi-government-helped-the-911-terrorists/)
Quote from: New York PostNow we know why the missing 28 pages on 9/11 were kept under lock and key for 15 years: They show the hijackers got help across America from Saudi diplomats and spies in the run-up to the attacks. Because of the coverup, a Saudi terror support network may still be in place inside the United States.
A CIA memorandum dated July 2, 2002, stated unequivocally that the connections found between the hijackers, the Saudi embassy in Washington and Saudi consulate in Los Angeles are “incontrovertible evidence that there is support for these terrorists within the Saudi government.â€
“Numerous†FBI files also fingered two Saudi government employees who assisted the 9/11 hijackers as “Saudi intelligence officers,†the newly declassified documents reveal.
W., Borne Back Ceaselessly (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/17/opinion/sunday/w-borne-back-ceaselessly.html?_r=0)
Quote from: New York TimesIf the 28 pages had been released back in 2002, the revelations might have helped stop the Iraq invasion by refocusing attention where it belonged: on possible real links between Al Qaeda and Saudi royals, rather than the fantasy links between Al Qaeda and Saddam pushed by Dick Cheney.
W. said releasing the pages back then would “make it harder for us to win the war on terror.†But now that we can see them, it's clear that the reverse is true: It was the Saudis who repeatedly stymied American efforts to crack down on Al Qaeda in the years before 9/11.
I find it interesting that some publications and politicians are proclaiming proudly that this finally frees Saudi Arabia of all suspicions surrounding 9/11.
Joint Inquiry into Intelligence Community Activities Before and After the Terrorist Attacks of September 11, 2001 (http://intelligence.house.gov/sites/intelligence.house.gov/files/documents/declasspart4.pdf)
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: monkey424 on Thu 21/07/2016 14:21:57
I was going to post another long-winded 7/7 post, but I'll hold fire for now...
Just in response to the 9/11 stuff, I stand by what I said earlier - Judy Wood's material has not been debunked. When talking about evidence, there is strong evidence and weak evidence. ‘Debunkers' tend to attack the weak evidence and ignore the strong evidence. The ambulance that survived at ground zero is strong evidence that chunks of a building did not fall on it and crush it, but rather turned to powder before hitting the ground. Just watch any video of the so-called ‘collapse' and you can see the chunks of building disintegrating into fine dust as they fall! You can't get stronger evidence than that â€" it's a direct observation.
My analysis (http://www.mediafire.com/download/4yw4an1ed8r8825/ambulance.pdf) of the ambulance from last year. It was never really addressed properly - sort of just swept under the rug.
Here's a simple question: What do you think happened to those buildings? Describe what happened, in scientific terms. What was the destructive mechanism?
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Crimson Wizard on Thu 21/07/2016 14:33:20
Quote from: monkey424 on Thu 21/07/2016 14:21:57 Just in response to the 9/11 stuff, I stand by what I said earlier - Judy Wood's material has not been debunked. When talking about evidence, there is strong evidence and weak evidence. ‘Debunkers' tend to attack the weak evidence and ignore the strong evidence.
Naturally, we discussed only stuff we have knowledge about. And in that areas we proved your claims wrong, or at least dubious, several times. And it was not that the evidence was "weak". Weak evidence is something that is generally true but not enough. That "evidence" I talk about was proved to be wrong. And yet you still keep bringing those evidence in your newer posts as if nothing happened.
There is a thing, that I actually told you about before. You cannot expect people to begin trusting you by throwing tonns of evidence at once. To get people's trust, you need to take one evidence, discuss it, and make sure people actually agree with you on that one before moving forward. Now, what happened is that we took some random bricks (evidences) from your building (theory) - just something that we could understand and discuss using our personal knowledge - and saw that those bricks are faulty. Should that really be surprising that we do not trust in the remaining building, and do not even want to "address" it?
Quote from: monkey424 on Thu 21/07/2016 14:21:57The ambulance that survived at ground zero is strong evidence that chunks of a building did not fall on it and crush it, but rather turned to powder before hitting the ground.
There are chunks of building that did not turn into dust but lying all around that ambulance. The car got fortunate either not to be hit hard by falling debris, ... or being protected by energy ray that only disintegrated chunks falling directly on it.
Quote from: monkey424 on Thu 21/07/2016 14:21:57 Just watch any video of the so-called ‘collapse' and you can see the chunks of building disintegrating into fine dust as they fall! You can't get stronger evidence than that â€" it's a direct observation.
You say this like that should be clear fact, but it does not look like that to me. They continue to fall down inside the dust cloud that covers them (or outside one). I can even see the shapes of the biggest parts of buildings in the dust - until they hit the ground. Some core parts even keep standing for dozen of seconds after rest of building collapsed. This is my own "direct observation". (And yes, I am refering to the video you posted in the old thread (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=51989.msg636528968#msg636528968)). The largest visual difference from usual building demolishing here is that the destruction started occuring at the top half of the building, causing dust cloud appear on top and descend down, as opposed to common case when the initial damage is done at the bottom floors, hence the dust cloud stays generally low. Chunks of the building fly through the dust cloud, taking dust particles with them, which create kind of dust trail - which is probably what you interpret as them "disintegrate as they fall".
EDIT By the way, since we are at this again, there was something I wanted to reply to your post back then, but did not because other people quickly changed the thread into fun (although bit annoyed, but I could not blame them). Here is the picture you posted, probably to claim "dustification": http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/a21e/s97zf3ke9y48m4zzg.jpg It amused me how whoever did this image sequence rised the horizon up on latest frames to make it look like a part of tower turns to dust at a spot and not falls down behind the neighbour building. If you adjust those images to have matching horizon level, you can clearly see progressive falling down, while leaving hovering dust trail behind. Where did that dust came from? I would suggest it simply got on those structural parts as the surrounding building fell. As they started falling down themselves, the cover of dust got suspended in the air.
I mean, these things look so obvious to me, that it would take something much more serious to even make me consider other possibilities. And you call that strongest evidence? :/
Quote from: monkey424 on Thu 21/07/2016 14:21:57 Here's a simple question: What do you think happened to those buildings? Describe what happened, in scientific terms. What was the destructive mechanism?
You see, it is not our job to describe the destructive mechanism. It is YOUR job to explain the destructive mechanism you are claiming took place. Which you never did in detail.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Scavenger on Thu 21/07/2016 14:36:11
Quote from: monkey424 on Thu 21/07/2016 14:21:57 Here's a simple question: What do you think happened to those buildings? Describe what happened, in scientific terms. What was the destructive mechanism?
No. You describe, in scientific terms, how exactly the building turns to dust, and why it leaves so much not-dust debris.
Give me solid scientific fact of the existence of the energy weapon.
An ambulance not being destroyed is not strong evidence, it is conjecture at most. I could say:
"The ambulance wasn't destroyed because invisible angels came down and deflected the heavy debris with their angelic powers."
And I'd have just as much evidence for my theory as you do for yours.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Danvzare on Thu 21/07/2016 15:06:29
You know, I really REALLY want to build up a strong case for why aliens are responsible for every single conspiracy theory on this thread. It probably wouldn't take long either, since a quick search revealed to me that aliens did 9/11 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k317MCt9JzY).
But unfortunately I'm way too lazy to build this case. And I doubt any of you would believe that I believe it.
Why did you say that with a hint of sarcasm? That is what happened! If you look closely at the pictures you can clearly see a speck that's clearly an angel! Just watch that video I linked to, or better yet just look at that picture posted by monkey424, and prove to me you can't see the angelic glow above the ambulance. That's scientific evidence right there, and I challenge monkey424 and Jack to prove me wrong. (nod)
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Fri 22/07/2016 12:24:37
Could This Rally Be a Head-Fake? (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2016/07/rally-head-fake.html)
This doesn't have Washington's Blog's characteristic 100 links (I think it's a guest post), but I thought I would post this anyway if someone were interested in the inner workings of the US economy circa 2016.
Like I said, this doesn't have all the qualification of a usual post of theirs and seems a bit speculative, but it would be a good bet to say that this is what they're doing, because:
1) Not doing it would crash the world economy. 2) They have been doing it since 2008.
It's called extend and pretend, or kicking the can down the road. Typically in these situations you'll find that the sells in the market show actual volume (lots of real people trading), and a rise in market/index value comes with very little (much too little) volume, in other words, a few high-frequency trading algorithms and the like are doing the buying.
It is unclear for how much longer the fed can keep this up. I know that last time I heard about the US national debt it was around 16 trillion, and now it's 19 trillion.
This is a more "credible" site which was the second hit for "low volume rally": Why this market is on the verge of falling hard (http://www.marketwatch.com/story/volume-patterns-suggest-weakness-not-strength-in-this-rally-2016-06-08)
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: monkey424 on Fri 22/07/2016 14:54:03
Crimson Wizard and others
I humbly accept what you're saying in regards to the ‘info dumps'. I didn't mean to overload people with info. I got a bit carried away I guess. Of course, you're right. We should consider things one step at a time.
It seems we're back to where we were last year. And I'm trying to convince you all of what I know to be true, but the penny hasn't dropped for some for whatever reason. It's a tough gig what I'm doing. And I don't particularly like doing it. That's why I sort of just gave up and quit last year. But now, here we are again. FYI - here's a recent book review (https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R11DH5VZFS0D5T/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=0615412564) on Amazon of Where Did the Towers Go. This is someone who ‘gets it' and pretty much describes exactly how I feel on the subject.
The ambulance surviving is not trivial. The fact that it is visible is astounding! Or rather, impossible. A back-of-envelope calculation (as per my analysis (http://www.mediafire.com/download/4yw4an1ed8r8825/ambulance.pdf)) proves this â€" although I think it should be more or less intuitive when you realise just how close the ambulance was in relation to the building. People that day were asking “where did the towers go?†â€" and was the inspiration for the title of Judy Wood's book.
Those ‘chunks' appear to be aluminium cladding. Perhaps it is lucky they didn't hit the car. But where's the rest of the building? Where are the huge pieces of concrete slabs and steel girders? There is an obvious lack of debris here that should be piled on top of the ambulance. Is this too subtle for people to understand?
The ambulance wasn't destroyed because there wasn't enough large pieces of material that fell on top of it. Same goes for the survivors in Stairwell B - in the building itself - just in the background behind the ambulance! But, if that material turned mostly to dust, and mostly went up and blew away in the wind (which we also clearly see) then that explains it.
The building turned to dust. That is the destructive mechanism. I don't need to be more specific than that. I know there is a technology that exists that can turn a building to dust, because a building was turned to dust, clearly.
If you disagree with this, then tell me what you think happened to the buildings?
If you think it was a gravity driven collapse, then did this destructive mechanism obey the laws of conservation of momentum and energy?
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Scavenger on Fri 22/07/2016 15:34:32
Quote from: monkey424 on Fri 22/07/2016 14:54:03 The building turned to dust. That is the destructive mechanism. I don't need to be more specific than that. I know there is a technology that exists that can turn a building to dust, because a building was turned to dust, clearly.
How do you know? What tests have been carried out to replicate "building turns to dust", even on a smaller scale? No conjecture here, I want actual physical studies replicating at least part of it. Otherwise, you're working off of faith.
If you think it was a gravity driven collapse, then did this destructive mechanism obey the laws of conservation of momentum and energy?
Planes flew into it and it fell down. Angels prevented the ambulance from being destroyed by putting up a faith based forcefield, because, as you know, the many eyed flaming wheel of eyes that are angels possess powers beyond that of mortal ken.
(http://i.imgur.com/Mf6sxfp.jpg)
As you can see, The circular area around the ambulance matches up with the aura of protection cast by the angel. The remaining concussive force left over from the falling debris hitting the protective angel shield damaged the ambulance, that was there before the towers fell down. Angels are, of course, incorporeal and intangible so it doesn't have to worry about being hit itself, but it protected this particular ambulance. Now, we know that God is totally capable of protecting people and objects from environmental damage, as stated in Daniel 3:10-27 (http://christiananswers.net/bible/dan3.html#10), and that was just a normal fire. Partially protecting an ambulance from falling rocks should be totally within the perview of the divine servants of God. Angels are, of course, invisible to the naked eye unless they want to be seen, so no wonder nobody saw it. There ain't no time for "Be Not Afraid" when a building is collapsing. And miracles have been reported to happen at arbitrary and random places, so it's totally believable that the angel can protect this ambulance for no discernable benefit. And clearly, there was another angel on Stairwell B.
This is, of course, the truth, as you can plainly see the ambulance has survived, and this is Strong Evidence for my Angels Protected the Ambulance theory.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Crimson Wizard on Fri 22/07/2016 15:37:19
EDIT: Hm, it appears I ended typing this as Scavenger posted his own reply. As usual it tooks me a lot to explain something that others do not see necessary to elaborate, or prefer do that in sarcastic manner :).
Quote from: monkey424 on Fri 22/07/2016 14:54:03 Those ‘chunks' appear to be aluminium cladding. Perhaps it is lucky they didn't hit the car. But where's the rest of the building? Where are the huge pieces of concrete slabs and steel girders? There is an obvious lack of debris here that should be piled on top of the ambulance. Is this too subtle for people to understand?
See, you say there should be "huge pieces of concrete slabs", etc, but how can you tell (and how can I)? Can you provide an explanation of where those huge pieces may come from and how they could get on a car that was standing besides the tower? I cannot, for example, use just any random building demolishion as a reference, because any random building is not a giant skyscraper which top part got damaged and cracked somehow, and then rammed down with the rest of the dissipating building. I mean, naturally some percent of building turned dust, but it could also turn into just a lot of small rubble, and I can see the piles of it all over the place; and I can find photographs with piled steel beams too (like this one for example (http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/08/31/article-2032067-0046F25300000258-480_634x334.jpg)), that is point one. Secondly, the ambulance was standing at one side of the bulding, and your chart in the PDF you refer to implies that the pile of rubble should be accurate and symmetric around the spot where tower stood - but that is a questionable assumption, because the remains of the towers did not have to fell symmetrically. Is not it possible that most amount fell to another direction, or rather was spread all over the bigger area - on neighbour streets and other buildings, - or spread unevenly (bigger piles in some places and less piles in others), making average height of the rubble pile less than you calculated? See, I am not even trying to discuss this properly right now, I am simply noting that even at first glance the arguments and calculations that you provide seem to be based on assumptions that are questionable and not necessarily correct. If you wanted to know why people won't want to "understand" you, here I gave an example.
Come on... even if something you claim really happened, that does not itself mean that it was a piece of secret technology that does that. I honestly cannot understand this argument.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Mandle on Fri 22/07/2016 22:48:11
I found this quote on THIS JUDY WOOD WEBSITE (http://pesn.com/2012/12/09/9602240_Ambulance-Survived_WTC1_911--Best-Evidence_Dustification_Free-Energy-Demo/)
"So it wasn't just WTC 1,2 and 7 that went down that day. But not only is there a lack of a 12-story heap from Buildings 1 and 2, towering over the remnants of the smaller Buildings 4, 5, and 6; but an aerial view shows the surface level to still be mostly ground level. Of course by the time this photo was taken 16 days later, a lot of wreckage had already been hauled away. But at least you see that the ground is not an irregular shaped heap, deformed from the "falling buildings", which is what you would expect if those buildings had actually collapsed and not gone mostly to dust."
I bolded that particular section for two reasons:
(1) Showing a photo of the site 16 days after the collapse to try to say anything about the state of the rubble immediately after the collapse is so ridiculous that I don't think I need to even explain why.
(2) "a lot of wreckage had already been hauled away": Wait! I thought the main point was the lack of wreckage, and then they mention that over the course of 16 days "a lot of wreckage" had already been removed from the site??? (And still try to use the photo as proof of a lack of wreckage immediately after the collapse regardless (see point (1))
This one sentence (that caught my eye at random as I scanned down a huge page of text and pics) is, I guess, another one of the "weak proofs"? If by just scanning down a single page on this site I can find such an amazing gap in logic, that makes me wonder what a more detailed look would do to its credibility...
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: NickyNyce on Fri 22/07/2016 23:45:27
Judys book shows a fire engine with the front of the cab crushed.She says,what in the world can do this? A picture surfaced later showing that the building landed on it. Good try Judy.
Judy claimed that cars on the FDR mysteriously caught fire. Wrong Judy, cars were moved there. Judys book shows the police car on the FDR and says it mysteriously caught fire by the beam. Wrong Judy, we proved that the car was towed there with the picture that I provided.
Judy shows pictures of glass with holes in it. Sorry Judy, this is a common occurrence.
Judys hurricane theory went out the window, when I explained that 95 percent of hurricanes move away from the east coast...especially New York. Good try Judy.
The towers were 90 percent air or something like that. They had huge giant open floor plans on tons of floors. There also was plenty of space for debris to fall into the parking garage below. You claimed it was not damaged. I provided pictures to prove that was wrong too.
The buildings collapsed from the points of impact from the planes. They did not turn to dust from the top down.
You claimed there were no planes, but there are pictures of plane parts in the street.
The video that shows what looks like a metal piece turning to dust in her blurry and horribly undetailed video can easily be laughed at. I found another video from a different angle showing this same piece falling downward and not turning to dust.
When did that ambulance arrive? Did it arrive after the first tower collapsed, or before any collapse? You can't say that it's impossible for every square foot surrounding the building to not be crushed by debris. That is just a ridiculous statement. Shouldn't that ambulance have no paint? You did say that beam turns steel things to dust, but no cars were turned to dust. You said that the beam stripped them of paint. Why only paint? Do you know what makes paint dissappear from cars?...fire.
Judy also says that people that fell from the windows of the buildings should have been holding pictures of their loved ones. This is a disgusting disgrace. These people were hanging from the windows for their dear life. What a disgusting and another ridiculous statement from Judy.
Did you ever come across a crazy person in the street, and say..wow.. that person is crazy. That's exactly what I thought the first time I saw and heard Judy talk. Listening to her talk during that ambushed interview video reminded me of these same drug abusing people I come across on the street. This is my opinion.
As you can see, lots of what Judy says is utter nonsense in the hopes that some people will buy her book. Her so called evidence is not evidence at all. When a person gets caught lying, you don't care about anything else they say.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Crimson Wizard on Sat 23/07/2016 00:00:09
BTW, missing mass of the building is not the only issue, there is a larger missing mass issue out there... (https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/most-universe-may-trapped-inside-153458751.html)
Spoiler
(j/k)
[close]
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Mandle on Sat 23/07/2016 02:31:23
Exactly! Uri Gellar and Sai Baba both claimed amazing powers! They both got caught faking their powers. Does anyone honestly believe them when they claimed they only faked their powers that one time while having an "off" day. Or is it much more likely that they were faking their powers every time?
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Adeel on Sat 23/07/2016 02:50:24
Quote from: Mandle on Sat 23/07/2016 02:31:23 Exactly! Uri Gellar and Sai Baba both claimed amazing powers! They both got caught faking their powers. Does anyone honestly believe them when they claimed they only faked their powers that one time while having an "off" day. Or is it much more likely that they were faking their powers every time?
I'm curious which Sai Baba you're talking about. Are you referring to the (orginal) Sai Baba (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sai_Baba_of_Shirdi) or the reincarnated Sai Baba (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sathya_Sai_Baba)? I'm more inclined to believe that it might be the latter, but still... What do you think of the original man, btw?
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Mandle on Sat 23/07/2016 09:03:13
Quote from: Adeel on Sat 23/07/2016 02:50:24 I'm curious which Sai Baba you're talking about. Are you referring to the (orginal) Sai Baba (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sai_Baba_of_Shirdi) or the reincarnated Sai Baba (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sathya_Sai_Baba)? I'm more inclined to believe that it might be the latter, but still... What do you think of the original man, btw?
Yes, sorry I meant reincarnated Sai Baba (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sathya_Sai_Baba). I was not actually aware of the original man.
I have seen film of the Sai Baba of which I was speaking producing his "miracle-dust" from the sleeves of his robe instead of from his hands. Also I saw a documentary where they took several of the gold items he claimed to be producing from thin-air and had them studied under high magnification: The items showed the telltale signs of factory machine tooling...This was enough to convince me that he was a fake. I don't mean to offend anyone here though and I now see that his organisation also did a great deal of good of which I was not aware. So let's just call this my opinion...
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Khris on Sat 23/07/2016 15:16:50
This is the actual problem here. You are no longer capable of even considering the notion that you could be wrong. You are no longer interested in finding out what actually happened; all you care about is spreading the Truthâ,,¢. Discussions with True Believers* are completely pointless because to their mind, anything and everything that contradicts their Faith must be wrong by definition.
I try to keep an open mind, and if some actually convincing evidence came along, I'm prepared to abandon my current opinion. Because I'm not invested in believing X about what happened on 9/11, I only care about not believing something that's wrong.
No. That is taken out of context. Read my analysis (http://www.mediafire.com/download/4yw4an1ed8r8825/ambulance.pdf). The ambulance photo was taken on 9/11, because building 7 was still standing when the photo was taken.
---
Quote from: Crimson Wizard on Fri 22/07/2016 15:37:19 Your chart in the PDF you refer to implies that the pile of rubble should be accurate and symmetric around the spot where tower stood - but that is a questionable assumption.
I see no evidence that the building toppled or favoured any one direction to fall. The building clearly falls symmetrically and radially. See photos in my analysis (http://www.mediafire.com/download/4yw4an1ed8r8825/ambulance.pdf). And then the rubble at ground zero is simply not there - anywhere. The photo (http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/08/31/article-2032067-0046F25300000258-480_634x334.jpg) you attached is looking from WTC3 (or where WTC3 should be) - where did that building go?
FYI - The top of WTC2 started to topple (rotate) but appeared to stop rotating at some point, therefore defying the law of conservation of angular momentum - just one of the many laws of physics broken that day.
---
I just want to let you guys know I hold no animosity towards any of you. It has been quite a difficult experience for me but I still love you guys. I have always thought the guys here on AGS are some of the smartest, funniest, talented, diverse and creative people. We share a love for adventure games at the end of the day, which means we're not too different. At the risk of sounding like a sissy girly-man, AGS will always hold a place in my heart.
Having said that, you guys really do bring my piss to a boil!!
Someone started another thread on the 'psychology of conspiracy theories'. I think a study of the psychology of consensus is more interesting and relevant. Just watch this short video:
The destructive mechanism was whatever turned the buildings to dust. Kinetic energy can't do this. Directed energy can. Directed energy doesn't just mean focused geographically. Directed can also mean instructed - i.e. energy was instructed to do something other than what it usually does. Of course, we haven't really got into the meat of this subject yet. It is more or less pointless until one has understood that the implied destructive mechanism of a gravity driven collapse is entirely fictional. I say implied because it has not been endorsed or demonstrated by the government body responsible for explaining what happened. They have avoided this. The official story persists simply due to a psychological mechanism which perpetuates a perceived, superficial understanding of what happened.
Does anyone get this? NIST contractors did not explain what happened. Their report was fraudulent, which was why Judy Wood sued them for science fraud.
As a prerequisite, one needs to have a good solid understanding or appreciation of the evidence.
One needs to have a good understanding of the sheer volume of dust. It is obvious that most of the building was reduced to dust - including steel, because we just don't see it in the remains. Unless you believe the steel was all shipped to China before the day's end, you have to accept the steel just wasn't there.
One needs to appreciate the fineness of the dust - much finer than sand, or even silt and clay size particles. This dust is so fine it floats. Pulverisation (kinetic energy) does not create this size dust.
The destructive mechanism can't be due to gravity alone because conservation of energy does not reconcile with the evidence. In other words, you need a lot more energy to generate this volume and fineness of dust.
Even if you ignore the dust aspect, the law of conservation of energy is also defied just trying to keep the progressive collapse going. It is theoretically and practically impossible. Here's a short video of someone trying to replicate the progressive or 'pancake' model of collapse. It doesn't work. More energy is needed.
No. That is taken out of context. Read my analysis (http://www.mediafire.com/download/4yw4an1ed8r8825/ambulance.pdf). The ambulance photo was taken on 9/11, because building 7 was still standing when the photo was taken.
That quote was talking about a different photo.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Snarky on Sun 24/07/2016 09:42:57
I'm glad to hear it, because the feeling is definitely mutual.
I wrote a longer post, but then I remembered that anything that perpetuates the "discussion" merely plays into the hands of the fringe theorists, so I'll just sum it up: Bullshit.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Sun 24/07/2016 11:22:02
Frankly, monkey #424, I don't think you are helping the truth at all by posting in this format. I haven't read everything you posted here (because it pisses me off when I am trying to read the thread and it keeps jumping around because of 30 images loading), but from what I've seen, the things you post are highly circumstantial. An image of an ambulance that mostly survived being close to a controlled demolition is not proof of anything. You know this, or you should.
There are a lot of things about 9/11 that don't fit the official account, and while almost none of these can be taken as proof on their own, taken together they should at least suggest that the official account is a blatant lie. But taking these bits of surviving evidence and running off to construct wild theories is not helping anyone. In fact, as you should be able to see, it is doing the opposite. The no planes and DEW theories, even if true, are utterly fantastical. They are too fantastical to believe without very much more proof than we have now. I am in actuality convinced that they are just more trash dumped on the internet to prevent people from really looking into 9/11. They are low-hanging fruit for the wilfully ignorant to feel smart as they "debunk" it.
So if you really care about the truth I suggest you find something very much more concrete than what you are spreading now. And keep in mind that even if some people see it happening before their eyes (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eem7d58gjno), they will refuse to believe it, because of its implications.
(all that coordination and failures, apparently no one told them to just set a couple of random fires to get a perfect controlled demolition)
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Danvzare on Sun 24/07/2016 12:08:14
Quote from: monkey424 on Sun 24/07/2016 07:02:50 I just want to let you guys know I hold no animosity towards any of you. It has been quite a difficult experience for me but I still love you guys. I have always thought the guys here on AGS are some of the smartest, funniest, talented, diverse and creative people. We share a love for adventure games at the end of the day, which means we're not too different. At the risk of sounding like a sissy girly-man, AGS will always hold a place in my heart.
Aww. How sweet. And I don't know about everyone else here, but that's generally been my feelings as well. No matter how heated this thread gets, we're all still just AGSers. :-D
Quote from: Jack on Sun 24/07/2016 11:22:02 I am in actuality convinced that they are just more trash dumped on the internet to prevent people from really looking into 9/11. They are low-hanging fruit for the wilfully ignorant to feel smart as they "debunk" it.
This is actually something I can believe. (nod) And I wouldn't be surprised if it was true about something that's never been mentioned on this thread simply because of that reason.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: NickyNyce on Sun 24/07/2016 16:35:39
So truthers that post crazy and ridiculous theories about 911 are actually the government pretending to be truthers?
Wow...the plot thickens.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Sun 24/07/2016 16:52:17
Yes, you have successfully decoded the hidden message in the post where I in no way suggested that. It's totally impossible for "truthers" to be misled. Or no, they're all UFOs. Whatever gets you through.
Oh, wait. I did actually say that I think this was probably disinformation. That must mean that everyone who believes it is a government agent, if someone replaced your brain with a dirty sock full of compost.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Cassiebsg on Sun 24/07/2016 16:55:34
??? ??? ??? Don't know what you talking about, but now you totally lost me, Jack. Whatever you tried to say there just doesn't give meaning or sound nice... :-X
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Crimson Wizard on Sun 24/07/2016 17:00:28
To be frank, I do not see why that would not be possible, if we take an assumption that it was government job and all. This is like another case of sabotaging opposition, similar to getting your provocators inside revolutionary groups - something that seem to had happened many times in history.
EDIT: of course, that does not mean that everyone posting or supporting such theories should be goverment agent; only few top theorists could be. People are easily get carried away with new mind-blowing theories.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Snarky on Sun 24/07/2016 17:26:15
It's theoretically possible, and intelligence agencies have been known to use similar techniques against each other and against activist groups, but man what a waste of time it would be! Like the Internet doesn't generate enough stupidity on its own.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Mandle on Sun 24/07/2016 23:11:11
And they said a Perpetual Stupidity Machine was impossible!
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Danvzare on Mon 25/07/2016 10:22:24
Just to add icing to the cake. I would like to add that South Park actually made an episode where they revealed that all conspiracy theories were made by the government to make people think they actually have the kind of power that conspiracy theories make the government out to have. It was a good episode too. And just to clarify, this in no way invalidates this being possible. It would be hilarious if it was true though. (laugh)
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Khris on Tue 26/07/2016 12:43:51
I feel smart whenever I catch someone blatantly lying about what they themselves said three pages earlier, or when I point out that somebody fell for a Mercola article that plainly and obviously misrepresents a study's findings, then watch the person disappear from the thread for weeks.
I don't feel too smart though, because that was really low-hanging fruit, too. And picking on people who merely think they are smart is easy.
I also love how you just stepped firmly into paranoia territory. Remember to occasionally remove the tinfoil hat, so your brain can get some air.
Quote from: monkey424 on Sun 24/07/2016 07:02:50Someone started another thread on the 'psychology of conspiracy theories'. I think a study of the psychology of consensus is more interesting and relevant.
That's a common tactic of conspiracy theorists: they think there are only two groups: themselves and sheeple. Whenever somebody is encountered who has actually evaluated the CT hypotheses and decided to reject them, they are either a troll, a shill or still a sheeple, because they haven't "truly looked at the evidence". I can somewhat understand the feeling though, it's how I feel whenever I encounter a religious person.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Tue 26/07/2016 12:54:19
Since your last logic error in this thread, the invasion of Iraq has been proven to be allowed by a false flag event where the US government covered up for the true perpetrators of 9/11 by diverting attention to a country they wanted to invade and had practically nothing to do with 9/11. While this is not a false flag to the full extent that I and others have always claimed, it still fits the description of a false flag event.
The fact that it didn't shut your lie hole for more than a few days demonstrates the kind of intellectual dishonestly you subject yourself to.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: NickyNyce on Fri 29/07/2016 01:55:11
https://youtu.be/1ThnzMgm1I4
I thought this was kind of interesting. Obviously not the exact circumstances, but I did notice that besides the explosives going off, the collapse of these buildings are rather quiet. I also noticed that every single one of these buildings appear to have debris only 1 story high or less after the collapse. Some of these buildings are small, but some appear to be at least 20 stories tall. I know the towers were huge, but they did collapse up to 4 or 5 stories in some places. Very interesting.
https://youtu.be/lKYW89xEYg0
In this video you can see huge giant pieces of the tower falling to the ground. The inner core of the building was left standing for a pretty long time. After a while it eventually falls downward and collapses too.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: monkey424 on Fri 12/08/2016 15:04:20
Yes, you're on the right track. But we've been through this idea before.
Repeating what I've said earlier, the cover-up of 9/11 is essentially two-tier. The first tier is the official narrative - or official conspiracy theory. The second tier is the 'inside job' narrative for those who can't accept the official version, which typically involves controlled demolition or some variant of that (one variant being the 'thermite' story which certainly falls under the 'crazy and ridiculous' category).
So yes, the 'plot thickened' about a decade ago when a chap called Andrew Johnson involved in the "truth movement" realised it had been infiltrated by individuals purporting to be interested in the truth but actually working to obscure evidence and distort perception to effectively hide the truth. Andrew wrote a book about his experience, which you can download for free (http://www.checktheevidence.com/pdf/9-11%20-%20Finding%20the%20Truth.pdf) - otherwise I recommend this interview with Andrew, here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbVzBZI_2Ok).
And of course, this all equates to South Park being right! The 9/11 conspiracy... is a conspiracy!
8-0
Here's a short video that I wanted to share. This lady describes things that are consistent with the statements of other witnesses regarding exploding cars.
VIDEO (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_j9k4fMpR4)
Please have a look. Tell me what you think.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: NickyNyce on Fri 12/08/2016 18:30:12
Here is what I don't understand about 911. Why would the government have fake planes, 1 in Pennsylvania with a crater and so called no debri?
Now the government has another team at the Pentagon with no plane, explosion, fake actors, fake families, fake planes departing from the airports, fake phone calls, fake collapse, fake plane sounds, holograms, kill tons of people, police officers, fire fighters, fake news crews, destroy two buildings down to a few stories tall that would make everyone wonder why and how it happened?
Why do all of this when a simple bomb somewhere would be enough to go to war? WHY have 8 million chain of events that have to happen perfectly right in front of the world with cameras everywhere and tens of thousands of witnesses to see with their own eyes?
Why not have a bomb go off in the towers? Why not destroy a floor or two? Why would they destroy two of the towers and turn them to dust like you said, when they don't have to? That's why none of it makes sense. Why is george bush sitting clueless like an idiot in a kindergarten class, with a horrible response in front of cameras that make him look bad if this is a conspiracy? It doesn't make sense to me, none of it.
There is no need for the 8 million chain of events that happened that day that would be needed to go to war. Why not just the pentagon?
If explosives were used on the towers, why destroy every single floor of both towers? Why destroy building 7 too? Why have 8 million things for the world to question when you don't have to?
So the government is so dumb they never thought of this? It would take tons and tons of people to keep a secret which doesn't happen. You can't keep one person quiet in this world. An email gets sent and people find out. This is the million dollar question that makes no sense. If a bomb went off in the pentagon, all of America would have said go to war.
Oh yeah, let's also have fake conspiracy theory videos on youtube thrown in too in order to really confuse them and trick everyone. Let's use super microwave rays and turn the towers to dust and have there be a smaller pile of debri than everyone expects, that will surely make them believe this is real...?
I find all of this so insane. What does make more sense to me is this. Terrorists attacked america, and are attacking all over the world, and the towers collapsed from the points of impacts from the planes, and they failed. Yep, very simple explanation.
Just my opinion. I respect everyone else's opinions here even though the topic gets heated at times. This will be my last post here even though I've said this before. I wish luck on bringing down the government if what you say or anyone else here says is true.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Snarky on Fri 12/08/2016 19:11:27
I feel we've been going about this the wrong way.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Mandle on Sat 13/08/2016 03:05:00
Snarky....HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! That was freakin' GREAT!!!
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Thu 08/09/2016 20:06:26
The Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) is an upcoming trade deal among 12 countries, and a corporate power grab on an unprecedented scale. It's notable mostly for its exploitable broad language, the extension of copyright, establishment of criminal enforcement of copyright violation, and the establishment of a international corporate tribunal which all signatories will be subjected to. The latter completely nullifies the signatories' sovereignty, making local laws and rights meaningless. Despite the far-reaching implications of the deal, the negotiations and details of the text have been kept totally secret, and only became available to the public when leaked via wikileaks. TTIP is another very similar trade deal between the US and EU.
The TTIP and TPP trade deals: enough of the secrecy (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/04/ttip-tpp-trade-deals-secrecy-greenpeace-leak)
Quote from: The GuardianWhile there were many civil society groups protesting the deals from the start, it wasn't until WikiLeaks published draft versions of TPP that public sentiment turned against it. The US trade representative even admitted at the time that the administration knew if the public found out what is in these trade deals, public opposition would be significant.
While lobbyists are given a free hand to help write the deals, even members of legislative bodies have to jump through absurd hoops just to lay eyes on the document. Draconian restrictions were put on US members of Congress if they wanted to view TPP while it was in negotiation, so much so that they were even threatened with prosecution if they talked about it.
Free trade on steroids: The threat of the Trans-Pacific Partnership (http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-miller-trans-pacific-trade-pact-20140421-story.html)
Quote from: LA TimesBut this agreement would force Americans to compete against workers from nations such as Vietnam, where the minimum wage is $2.75 a day. It threatens to roll back financial regulation, environmental standards and U.S. laws that protect the safety of drugs we take, food we eat and toys we give our children. It would create binding policies on countless subjects, so that Congress and state legislatures would be thwarted from mitigating the pact's damage.
The EFF paints the IP enforcement aspect of it in broad strokes (https://www.eff.org/issues/tpp):
Quote from: EFFThe Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) is a secretive, multinational trade agreement that threatens to extend restrictive intellectual property (IP) laws across the globe and rewrite international rules on its enforcement.
All signatory countries will be required to conform their domestic laws and policies to the provisions of the Agreement.
[It will] Create copyright terms well beyond the internationally agreed period in the 1994 Agreement on Trade-Related Aspects of Intellectual Property Rights (TRIPS). The TPP could extend copyright term protections from life of the author + 50 years, to Life + 70 years for works created by individuals, and 70 years after publication or after creation for corporate owned works (such as Mickey Mouse).
It will compel signatory nations to enact laws banning circumvention of digital locks (technological protection measures or TPMs) that mirror the DMCA and treat violation of the TPM provisions as a separate offense even when no copyright infringement is involved.
With no good rationale, the agreement would outlaw a country from adopting rules for the sale of software that include mandatory code review or the release of source code. This could inhibit countries from addressing pressing information security problems, such as widespread and massive vulnerability in closed-source home routers.
[It will] Adopt criminal sanctions for copyright infringement that is done without commercial motivation. Users could be jailed or hit with debilitating fines over file sharing, and may have their property or domains seized or destroyed even without a formal complaint from the copyright holder.
The Final Leaked TPP Text Is All That We Feared (https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2015/10/final-leaked-tpp-text-all-we-feared)
Help us fix the TPP (http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/help-us-fix-tpp)
Quote from: Doctors Without BordersDamaging intellectual property rules in the U.S.-led Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement (TPP) would give pharmaceutical companies longer monopolies over brand name drugs. Companies would be able to charge high prices for longer periods of time. And it would be much harder for generic companies to produce cheaper drugs that are vital to people's health.
Patently perturbed: Trans-Pacific Partnership trade deal raises fears about drug patent periods, higher costs (http://www.modernhealthcare.com/article/20160604/MAGAZINE/306049978)
Top 5 Reasons Eaters should be Worried about Obama's New Trade Deal (http://www.centerforfoodsafety.org/blog/4077/top-5-reasons-eaters-should-be-worried-about-obamas-new-trade-deal)
Quote from: Center for Food SafetyTPP countries growing genetically engineered crops could challenge U.S. state regulations, like Vermont's, that require labels on GE foods. More broadly, any U.S. food safety rules on labeling, pesticides, or additives that is higher than international standards could be subject to challenge as "illegal trade barriers."
TPP's inclusion of an Investor-State Dispute Settlement, or ISDS, is very troubling. Under ISDS, multinational corporations can sue a country in a closed-door international court over a domestic environmental, public health or other regulation that it believes inhibits its potential profits.
The Trans-Pacific Partnership clause everyone should oppose (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/kill-the-dispute-settlement-language-in-the-trans-pacific-partnership/2015/02/25/ec7705a2-bd1e-11e4-b274-e5209a3bc9a9_story.html)
Quote from: Washington PostISDS would allow foreign companies to challenge U.S. laws â€" and potentially to pick up huge payouts from taxpayers â€" without ever stepping foot in a U.S. court. Here's how it would work. Imagine that the United States bans a toxic chemical that is often added to gasoline because of its health and environmental consequences. If a foreign company that makes the toxic chemical opposes the law, it would normally have to challenge it in a U.S. court. But with ISDS, the company could skip the U.S. courts and go before an international panel of arbitrators. If the company won, the ruling couldn't be challenged in U.S. courts, and the arbitration panel could require American taxpayers to cough up millions â€" and even billions â€" of dollars in damages.
Bonus flavour: Recent examples of how competently corporations use the current level of copyright enforcement afforded to them:
Warner Bros. Flags Its Own Website as a Piracy Portal (https://torrentfreak.com/warner-bros-flags-website-piracy-portal-160904/)
Photographer Files $1bn Copyright Claim Against Getty Images (https://torrentfreak.com/photographer-files-1bn-copyright-claim-against-getty-images-160728/)
EDIT: Another article: Paramount Wipes "Infringing" Ubuntu Torrent From Google (https://torrentfreak.com/paramount-wipes-infringing-ubuntu-torrent-google-160909/)
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Sun 11/09/2016 12:15:52
This article appears in the new issue of EuroPhysicsNews, a publication by the European Physical Society.
15 Years Later: On The Physics of High-Rise Building Collapses (http://www.europhysicsnews.org/articles/epn/pdf/2016/04/epn2016474p21.pdf) [full issue] (http://www.europhysicsnews.org/articles/epn/pdf/2016/04/epn2016-47-4.pdf)
Not only do they address the basics of structural physics and controlled demolition, but also NIST's utterly lacking and otherworldly scientific rigor in the investigations. They look at WTC7, and do something I never felt comfortable doing myself: Going into the physics behind towers 1 & 2.
Excerpts:
Quote from: EuroPhysicsNewsSteel-framed high-rises are designed to be highly redundant structural systems. Thus, if a localized failure occurs, it does not result in a disproportionate collapse of the entire structure. [...] The above graph [10] compares David Chandler's measurement [9] of the velocity of the roofline of WTC 1 with Bažant's erroneous calculation [11] and with Szamboti and Johns' calculation using corrected input values for mass, acceleration through the first story, conservation of momentum, and plastic moment (the maximum bending moment a structural section can withstand). The calculations show thatâ€"in the absence of explosivesâ€"the upper section of WTC 1 would have arrested after falling for two stories (Source: Ref. [10]). [...] The total collapse of WTC 7 at 5:20 PM on 9/11, shown in Fig. 2, is remarkable because it exemplified all the signature features of an implosion: The building dropped in absolute free fall for the first 2.25 seconds of its descent over a distance of 32 meters or eight stories [3]. Its transition from stasis to free fall was sudden, occurring in approximately one-half second. It fell symmetrically straight down. Its steel frame was almost entirely dismembered and deposited mostly inside the building's footprint, while most of its concrete was pulverized into tiny particles. Finally, the collapse was rapid, occurring in less than seven seconds.Given the nature of the collapse, any investigation adhering to the scientific method should have seriously considered the controlled demolition hypothesis, if not started with it. Instead, NIST (as well as the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), which conducted a preliminary study prior to the NIST investigation) began with the predetermined conclusion that the collapse was caused by fires. [...] NIST was able to arrive at this scenario only by omitting or misrepresenting critical structural features in its computer modelling.[4] Correcting just one of these errors renders NIST's collapse initiation indisputably impossible. Yet even with errors that were favorable to its predetermined conclusion, NIST's computer model (see Fig. 3) fails to replicate the observed collapse, instead showing large deformations to the exterior that are not observed in the videos and showing no period of free fall. Also, the model terminates, without explanation, less than two seconds into the seven-second collapse. Unfortunately, NIST's computer modelling cannot be independently verified because NIST has refused to release a large portion of its modelling data on the basis that doing so “might jeopardize public safety.†[...] As for eyewitness accounts, some 156 witnesses, including 135 first responders, have been documented as saying that they saw, heard, and/or felt explosions prior to and/or during the collapses [14]. That the Twin Towers were brought down with explosives appears to have been the initial prevailing view among most first responders. “I thought it was exploding, actually,†said John Coyle, a fire marshal. “Everyone I think at that point still thought these things were blown up†[15].
Sticking to the physics of the collapses, they do not go into the numerous amounts of critical evidence known to be destroyed by the US government, the stand-down of norad, or the list of unanswered questions and highly suggestive related events. Indirectly it once again paints the picture of a laughable investigation held up by the dismissive guffaws from the USG on this verboten subject.
The self-deception required to look at something like this and dismiss it out of hand must be out of this world. While it continues to amaze me, I'm not going to argue these points. Just know that my mouth hangs opens for you, and real resources are being employed toward finding out what went wrong.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Danvzare on Sun 11/09/2016 13:11:13
I was wondering when you were going to cite that article. I heard about it a few days ago. (laugh)
Ah, it's good to be back in the conspiracy theory stuff, and away from that scary realistic internet censorship stuff.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Stupot on Sun 11/09/2016 14:19:09
How about not, just for today.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Sun 11/09/2016 14:37:51
Yeah, thought I'd save it for the day. Where did you hear about it, BTW? Don't tell me you've started reading washington's blog. :D
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Danvzare on Sun 11/09/2016 16:20:16
Quote from: Jack on Sun 11/09/2016 14:37:51 Yeah, thought I'd save it for the day. Where did you hear about it, BTW? Don't tell me you've started reading washington's blog. :D
I heard on 9gag (don't judge). People were making memes about it.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Sun 18/09/2016 11:24:06
Creepy Clowns Are Terrorizing Children, Parents And Schools All Over America (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2016/09/creepy-clowns-are-terrorizing-children-parents-and-schools-all-over-america.html)
Obviously a satirical take on the run-up to the US election, right? Wrong. This goes in the WTF section.
Quote from: Washington's BlogAn epidemic of creepy clown sightings is sweeping America, and authorities don't know who or what is behind it. In some instances, clowns with horrific expressions painted on their faces have been spotted standing on the side of the road, lurking near the edge of the woods or just roaming about town staring at random people. But in other instances there have been reports of clowns actually attempting to lure children with gifts, and there have even been some reports of children running away from creepy clowns that were chasing after them. While doing research for this article, I came across recent creepy clown sightings from South Carolina, North Carolina, Ohio, Florida, Wisconsin, California, Alabama, Georgia and West Virginia. This is truly a nationwide phenomenon, and many believe that it will get even worse as Halloween approaches.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Danvzare on Sun 18/09/2016 12:22:24
Weird, I've heard about something like that before, but I thought someone was just making a joke about the film IT or something. I can't believe it's actually true! 8-0
Maybe there's a group of people called Creepy Clowns Anonymous, where the members promote a fear of clowns, because they really REALLY hate clowns. (laugh)
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Mandle on Sun 18/09/2016 12:37:16
I'm not surprised to see West Virginia on the list...
It's just John Keel's "parade of the damned" putting on new masks and coming out to play as they do every few decades...
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Stupot on Mon 19/09/2016 03:46:16
Well there is a new IT remake coming soon. Probably a twisted publicity campaign to get people talking about scary clowns.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Mandle on Mon 19/09/2016 05:24:47
Naw... it's just more bigfoot (http://www.horror-shop.com/out/pictures/master/product/1/17161-Clown_Schuhe_gelb_und_rot_mit_Sternen-Zirkus_Schuhe-Clown_Shoes_yellow_and_red_with_Stars.jpg) sightings... except bigfoot is made-up (http://www.letscelebrateparties.com.au/images/tri-colour%20makeup%20palette%20-%20clown.jpg)...
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Mandle on Tue 20/09/2016 17:30:08
Really? ...nobody saw what I did there?
I was pretty proud of it... A few pity (laugh)'s at least?
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Babar on Tue 20/09/2016 18:46:57
I learnt a new and horrifying thing today, something I feel all of the internet should know! Check it out here (http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2014/09/important-revelation-antichrist-obamas-role-of-imam-mahdi-calling-for-all-muslims-world-wide-to-unite-3021420.html)
Spoiler
What did I learn? That the internet is absolutely insane. What is that article, even? :D
[close]
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Mandle on Tue 20/09/2016 18:55:50
Quote from: Babar on Tue 20/09/2016 18:46:57 I learnt a new and horrifying thing today, something I feel all of the internet should know! Check it out here (http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2014/09/important-revelation-antichrist-obamas-role-of-imam-mahdi-calling-for-all-muslims-world-wide-to-unite-3021420.html)
Spoiler
What did I learn? That the internet is absolutely insane. What is that article, even? :D
[close]
Well...If Obama IS the Anti-Christ...He should probably make his move sometime soon...
It would be so awesome to see him grow horns on a live White House broadcast to the nation and just declare the November election invalid because both runners had already signed their souls over to him...
Can we live in that world for just a little bit?
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Tue 20/09/2016 20:50:37
I remember this from the time of his initial win. There was a snopes article (http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/antichrist.asp) to put everyone at ease.
I forgive the people in 2008 for assuming it is the end of times and that Oboner would be the last US president. It may not have been the end, but the illusion ended for many.
Looking back, those were white glove days. Now it's all green screen and manipulation by google.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Scavenger on Tue 20/09/2016 21:44:08
Quote from: Jack on Tue 20/09/2016 20:50:37 I forgive the people in 2008 for assuming it is the end of times and that Oboner would be the last US president. It may not have been the end, but the illusion ended for many.
Let's be honest, they did it because he was black, I wouldn't forgive them one bit.
Also, even if these health rumours meant anything (we've had plenty of very sick presidents before, some of them beloved), I would totally vote for a corpse over Trump.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Mandle on Wed 21/09/2016 02:44:31
Somebody always tries to float an antichrist theory like that about pretty much every major world leader:
I remember when Reagan was elected: Ronald Wilson Reagan... See anything interesting about the letter counts?
And I heard about that as a child, living in Australia, and before the internet. It wasn't on TV or anything: It just was going around the world-wide-word-of-mouth rumour-mill, which just goes to show how popular antichrist theories are:
They are the religious adult's version of campfire ghost stories: Scary, but secretly thrilling, and they just can't wait to pass the story on...
The same thing's been going on forever, it's just hugely accelerated and amplified now because of the internet...
Heck, even the number 666 was a numeric code fingering Emperor Nero as the antichrist so, hilariously, all this time people have actually been trying to prove that Hitler, Saddam, or Putin are actually...GASP!....NERO!!!
Finding Nero...
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Wed 21/09/2016 09:56:53
Creepy Clown Sightings Sweep The Nation As The Threats Of Violence Become Even More Chilling (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2016/09/creepy-clown-sightings-sweep-the-nation-as-the-threats-of-violence-become-even-more-chilling.html)
Quote from: Washington's BlogIndividuals posing as “creepy clowns†on social media are openly naming specific schools that they plan to target and are threatening to commit horrific acts of violence. That may sound like an interesting plot for a Hollywood horror movie, but in real life these kinds of threats have very serious consequences.
Imagine the pressure a nation must be under to mutate in this way.
"We a bunch of doomed bastards. Dayum!"
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Wed 21/09/2016 11:53:29
Sorry for the double post, but:
(http://techtroupe.net/posted/hillary.jpg)
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Danvzare on Wed 21/09/2016 20:56:24
Oh no, Ubisoft is funding Hillary! America is doomed! Although at least is isn't EA. (laugh)
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Thu 29/09/2016 20:44:19
A bit of news, not overtly horrible for once.
The Saudi Arabian government has threatened to drop all of their dollar reserves if a certain US bill came into law, which would allow bereaved families of the 9/11 attacks to sue saudi officials for their involvement and support in the attacks. Obama vetoed the bill, but since it's so close to an election, no congressional lawmaker apparently wants to be seen as being soft on terrorism, and the bill became law yesterday.
Dollar Reigns Supreme as Saudi Threat to Unload Is Deemed Hollow (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-04-26/dollar-reigns-supreme-as-saudi-threat-to-unload-is-deemed-hollow)
Congress hands Obama first veto override (http://www.politico.com/story/2016/09/senate-jasta-228841)
EDIT: Though I wouldn't pop the cork on the champagne just yet, because while their share is relatively small, I believe the dollar could be sunk, if the attackers had help from the inside, as they did on 9/11.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Danvzare on Fri 30/09/2016 11:04:17
Quote from: Jack on Thu 29/09/2016 20:44:19 which would allow bereaved families of the 9/11 attacks to sue saudi officials for their involvement and support in the attacks.
Just... how? What? You can't just sue government officials in another country!
That would be like the Jewish suing Germany over World War 2.
America has a real fascination with suing everyone, don't they?
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Fri 30/09/2016 11:33:01
Well the district court of Chicago can arrest Ukrainian citizens in Poland and seize their bank accounts for copyright violation (https://torrentfreak.com/feds-seize-kickasstorrents-domains-charge-owner-160720/), so all bets are off apparently.
Incidentally that domain seizure was the first shot in an all-out war against torrenting and streaming, which is still raging today and has claimed many victims, the most recent being several youtube download sites. Borders and laws of sovereign nations don't matter any more. TTP/TTIP was delayed and no one told them.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Blondbraid on Fri 30/09/2016 13:16:35
Quote from: Jack on Thu 29/09/2016 20:44:19 which would allow bereaved families of the 9/11 attacks to sue saudi officials for their involvement and support in the attacks.
Just... how? What? You can't just sue government officials in another country!
That would be like the Jewish suing Germany over World War 2.
America has a real fascination with suing everyone, don't they?
Haven't they heard that saying about rocks and glass houses? Imagine if other countries would sue American Government for well, pretty much any of the wars they've been involved with the last decades, or american companies for ruining local businesses and unions.
And the whole war against piracy just feels so wrong, especially since it's screwed things up for so many people who haven't even broken any laws, and many anti-piracy measures in movies and video games have been either laughably ineffektive at best, or even taken away the product the consumer already paid for at worst.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Mandle on Fri 30/09/2016 15:15:56
I guess this is one of the reasons why triple-A game companies are focused so much on multiplayer games, with a lame single-player campaign mode tacked on (or not):
You can't play the game unless logged in with a unique account.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Blondbraid on Fri 30/09/2016 16:49:14
Quote from: Mandle on Fri 30/09/2016 15:15:56 I guess this is one of the reasons why triple-A game companies are focused so much on multiplayer games, with a lame single-player campaign mode tacked on (or not):
You can't play the game unless logged in with a unique account.
Yes, I think Diablo 3 and Sim City was the worst offenders in that regard, since they needed constant internet connection for a Singel-player game. You have to be logged in in order to play alone, and you can't play if their servers break down.(wrong) Are they actively trying to make players just give up and pirate the games instead just to avoid dealing with all anti-piracy stuff?
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Mandle on Sun 02/10/2016 12:36:05
Quote from: Mandle on Fri 30/09/2016 15:15:56 I guess this is one of the reasons why triple-A game companies are focused so much on multiplayer games, with a lame single-player campaign mode tacked on (or not):
You can't play the game unless logged in with a unique account.
Yes, I think Diablo 3 and Sim City was the worst offenders in that regard, since they needed constant internet connection for a Singel-player game. You have to be logged in in order to play alone, and you can't play if their servers break down.(wrong)
It is a solution to the problem of piracy though: When it took a multi-million dollar budget to produce your game, and then it shows up for free 2 days after release on bitstream, how are you gonna feel?
Movies have the same problem, but at least they have the advantage that, if you want the full experience, then you have to go to the big-screen/Imax/3D/THX-sound/etc theater, but with games you can run them on any size/power system you like one you have the file...
Maybe they are smart? Afterall: if the game companies collapse because of piracy, then us gamers also lose out...
Or we just play indie games: Not a bad alternative either...
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Sun 02/10/2016 13:37:20
Quote from: Mandle on Sun 02/10/2016 12:36:05 When it took a multi-million dollar budget to produce your game, and then it shows up for free 2 days after release on bitstream, how are you gonna feel?
I don't know what it feels like to see my game being offered for free after I paid my testers slave wages and made 300% profit on it. I only know what it feels like to pay $60 for a game that I will never truly own, and will stop working when they switch off its DRM servers.
But poor EA. Multi billion dollar empires built on mediocre products protected by franchise deals have such a hard time.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Danvzare on Sun 02/10/2016 13:39:07
Quote from: Mandle on Sun 02/10/2016 12:36:05 It is a solution to the problem of piracy though: When it took a multi-million dollar budget to produce your game, and then it shows up for free 2 days after release on bitstream, how are you gonna feel?
Movies have the same problem, but at least they have the advantage that, if you want the full experience, then you have to go to the big-screen/Imax/3D/THX-sound/etc theater, but with games you can run them on any size/power system you like one you have the file...
Maybe they are smart? Afterall: if the game companies collapse because of piracy, then us gamers also lose out...
Or we just play indie games: Not a bad alternative either...
Yes it is a solution, and as far as I can tell, one of the most effective ones so far.
But think of this for a second. Most games are cracked within a week, and are surprisingly easy to illegally download. As a matter of fact, piracy is easier than ever before. Yet the game industry is doing better than it has ever done before. Not only that but GOG sells games with no DRM, practically allowing people to put the game on a flashdrive and install it onto all of the computers they find, and yet, GOG is doing brilliantly and expanding very quickly.
In short, all of these attempts to stops pirates, has not only done nothing to stop pirates, but has also been a waste of time to begin with since piracy clearly doesn't affect sales much. In short, someone who pirates your game, probably wasn't going to buy it anyway. Perhaps because they don't have enough money to waste on things like that. Who knows.
I'm not saying we should do away with all DRM (simply needing a disc in seems to work well and not annoy anyone), but clearly there's no need to go crazy on it either.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Mandle on Mon 10/10/2016 14:16:33
I just found this amazing parody of how a convincing and yet insane conspiracy theory can be put together quite solidly:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1ULjJ3EqyY
The maker of the video has even admitted that it was intended as a parody, and yet people still believe in it.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Mandle on Tue 18/10/2016 16:11:24
No comments yet on this video?
I found it really interesting how the narrator speaks in a monotonic voice the entire time, while the rhythmic music plays, and repeats simple (but ridiculous) suggestions over and over and OVER AND OVER "The pines are the towers...The towers are the pines...The pines are the towers"
As a licensed hypnotherapist I can recognize these exact methods for implanting suggestions in a patient, and I can also spot the same methods being used in almost every other conspiracy video I have seen, including Dr. Judy Wood's:
A few powerful points that make people feel a sense of wonder at the overall concept of the conspiracy, punctuated inbetween by a hypnotic repetition of simple sentences pushing those points OVER AND OVER with a rhythmic background soundtrack playing much like a metronome in classical hypnosis.
These videos are simple hypnotic suggestion theory.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Cassiebsg on Tue 18/10/2016 19:00:00
Well, I had a good laugh at one of the comments to the video... and so did the video author, but the guy didn't get the joke. (laugh)
Always wondered if I'm hypnotic susceptible. Any way to figure that out? I've always assumed am not, as I've been in some courses where the teacher used such techniques to the get student to imagine they were some place else... and I was "uhm... I don't see it... I don't feel anything different... the others seem to be off in a journey that I'm missing..."
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Crimson Wizard on Tue 18/10/2016 19:33:19
Speaking of foreshadowing, this is a pretty good one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fe58Lq8puQ8
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Tue 18/10/2016 19:39:56
If I had to take a guess, to make people agree with them. Never underestimate a person's desire for other people to share their opinion. Why do you think so many people try to push their opinions on others, going so far as to rant and rave on forums. Even I'm wanting someone to agree with my opinion on this matter!
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: cat on Tue 18/10/2016 21:12:50
@Mandle: Just watched it, and the video is at least as hilarious as the comments below it. I almost fell off my chair when the monolith appeared (I saw Odyssey for the first time a few weeks ago at a Kubrick retrospective at a local cinema).
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Tue 18/10/2016 21:14:18
Because that sort of psychological technique isn't black magic locked in a tome where you need divine inspiration to translate the ancient runes. It's pretty elementary, you can learn it in actual books. There are books on how cults work as well that's similar - affirmation and repetition and easing people into that shit with stuff they have to agree with and then connecting lines without giving them time to really think and introspect about what's going on.
They all use it because it generally works on people. That's like asking "Why are all these films shot using cameras", or "why is all this bread baked with flour". Because it works. Pft, next you'll be asking why fortune tellers use cold reading or why magicians use sleight of hand.
I was reading a book on different kinds of cults earlier - it was talking about how one cult leader attended seminars by another cult leader, and based their own cult's structure on how they did theirs. It's a formula that works and makes money, so people use it. And generally, you only hear about the people who are even a little bit successful at their craft. Conspiracy theories are a dime a dozen, after all. But it takes skill and talent to craft bullhockey into a stream of consciousness rollercoaster that manipulates people's feelings.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Tue 18/10/2016 23:43:29
So as you point out there are many techniques which are similar, yet what is described here is one very specific technique, characterised by three distinct features, used in "almost every" video concerning conspiracies which Mandle has encountered.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Mandle on Wed 19/10/2016 00:29:44
Quote from: Jack on Tue 18/10/2016 23:43:29 So as you point out there are many techniques which are similar, yet what is described here is one very specific technique, characterised by three distinct features, used in "almost every" video concerning conspiracies which Mandle has encountered.
"Specific technique": Not really that specific. But yes, I did use one specific name for it. Call it what you will: There are many synonyms for "hypnotic suggestion", but they all pretty much boil down to the same:
"Three distinct features": Basic hypnosis is, in theory, only really three or four easy techniques. Anybody can do them. If somebody read a single A4 page called "How To Hypnotize" and followed the steps, they could almost certainly hypnotize a person on the first try. Hell, we did as students practicing on each other, and I couldn't believe such seemingly simple bullshit was working on me the first time I went under. Of course, the subject should be in a comfortable position, usually seated (if prone they might just fall asleep instead), and in an environment where the therapist's voice and rhythmic effects (music, metronome, etc) are mostly all they can hear. Does this not exactly describe a subject watching a video on Youtube with their headphones on?
""almost every" video concerning conspiracies which Mandle has encountered.": Maybe I should have said all the "compelling" ones. The ones that aren't at least compelling enough to be entertaining I would turn off after about 30 seconds and retain no memory of them.
And before you mentioned motive: Why, money of course my dear fellow! Or power over a group of believers! Or to become famous! Or, more likely, all three!
Or: In the case of this parody video: To educate people about the techniques to beware of when somebody turns an insane theory (with three or four compelling points of coincidence like the BTTF/911 parody) into a presentation that has the power to convince through hypnotic/subliminal/subconcious (whatever you want to call it) manipulation.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Mandle on Wed 19/10/2016 00:48:38
I'm sure there are many Youtube videos you can listen to of a therapist going through the steps to put you under. Get in a comfortable sitting position, put on your headphones, close your eyes, and listen.
And see what happens... (you might want to avoid the ones that plant post-hypnotic suggestions about becoming a chicken 10 minutes later)
Of course, some of the steps cannot be performed without live feedback: Such as regular checking by the therapist to gauge what stage of hypnosis the subject is currently in: lifting the subject's arm and dropping it is an easy example...with the spoken suggestion that the feeling of the arm dropping will only deepen the subject's state...if the arm drops limply like it would with an unconcious person then the state is quite a deep level... And then the therapist knows they can move on to the next pattern of suggestions and that they will be effective... And so on down the chain into deeper and deeper states...
Without this important live feedback, which allows the therapist to know to repeat the suggestions for that next level until it is achieved, listening to a recording might not work... But, it might...
Do you dare try? MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
EDIT: It's best if the therapist is speaking in your first language, or a second language that you are so used to hearing/speaking that it is close to the level of your first language. Because by the time you are at a very deep state your skills at figuring out stuff analytically will be impared. The language must be so familiar to you that it just flows naturally into your brain and is instantly understood.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Wed 19/10/2016 01:45:44
Quote from: Mandle on Wed 19/10/2016 00:29:44 "Specific technique": Not really that specific. But yes, I did use one specific name for it. Call it what you will: There are many synonyms for "hypnotic suggestion", but they all pretty much boil down to the same:
So you didn't mean to suggest that all the compelling conspiracy theory videos you watched used a monotonous voice throughout, over rhythmic music, while repeating points over and over? These are the three specific tools I referred to which, used together, make up a specific technique.
I don't mean to suggest that this technique is esoteric or occult. It's the implication of this specific technique, a particular subset of hypnotic suggestion, being near-universally applied which I find interesting. Further, are there other interests beside conspiracy videos which you have seen using such a form of hypnotic suggestion, in other words meeting at least as many characterisations? For instance, the repetition used with other tools in cults that someone mentioned meets only one characterisation and does not fall under this specific technique.
Quote from: Mandle on Wed 19/10/2016 00:29:44 The ones that aren't at least compelling enough to be entertaining I would turn off after about 30 seconds and retain no memory of them.
Of this I will send a note to the director of my propaganda and mental disruption department: More circenses required to achieve optimal control and profit.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Mandle on Wed 19/10/2016 13:41:31
Quote from: Jack on Wed 19/10/2016 01:45:44 It's the implication of this specific technique, a particular subset of hypnotic suggestion, being near-universally applied which I find interesting. Further, are there other interests beside conspiracy videos which you have seen using such a form of hypnotic suggestion, in other words meeting at least as many characterisations? For instance, the repetition used with other tools in cults that someone mentioned meets only one characterisation and does not fall under this specific technique.
I'm not exactly sure why I'm being questioned about other things that you might have issues with...
My posts were in regard to my own personal experience with conspiracy theory videos, which I used to watch with great interest, until I started to notice a pattern... And this parody of the BTTF/911 conspiracy video actually clarified in my thoughts what that pattern was... And then I realized that I already had studied and experienced a similar pattern before: Hypnosis...
That's about all I was posting to say... I'm not sure where you are trying to take it further to, but I don't think I'm going to be jumping on that particular boat unless you have a very intriguing thing to say next...
Basically: I think we need a bigger boat.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Cassiebsg on Wed 19/10/2016 15:12:29
/me gives Mandle a ship. :-D
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Thu 20/10/2016 21:20:32
The idea was that you, as a licensed hypnotist, recognised these tools being used, and I was wondering whether you've seen other concerns using them in at least such a comprehensive manner (meaning, having at least the monotonous voice, rhythmic music and repetition).
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Mon 24/10/2016 02:53:26
So just BSing, eh?
EDIT: I want to clarify that I wasn't trying to put you on the spot, or make you look stupid, or whatever else you got so cagey about. My intention was to find out, since you know more about this than most of us, whether you have witnessed any other movements or concerns using this technique. This was predicated on the assumption that what you said is true.
I also wanted to clarify whether the below text did in fact mean that the specific technique (being the technique having at least the three stated characteristics) was in fact applied to all the videos you were referring to, since you seem to be shying away from that implication now.
Quote from: Mandle on Tue 18/10/2016 16:11:24 I found it really interesting how the narrator speaks in a monotonic voice the entire time, while the rhythmic music plays, and repeats simple (but ridiculous) suggestions over and over and OVER AND OVER "The pines are the towers...The towers are the pines...The pines are the towers"
As a licensed hypnotherapist I can recognize these exact methods for implanting suggestions in a patient, and I can also spot the same methods being used in almost every other conspiracy video I have seen, including Dr. Judy Wood's:
This I wanted to know for my own purposes and further research. Because what you said, if true, is damned interesting. All videos of a specific type using the exact same technique is a distinct pattern, unless you're one of those people wondering where the forest is while standing in the midst of 100,000 trees.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Mandle on Mon 24/10/2016 12:51:30
No...it's not BS, and I respect your reasons for asking... But at the current time I'm waaaaaay too busy to write a long discussion...
I'll think about your questions until next weekend when my Halloween hell is over, and then post then...
Cheers!
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Sat 29/10/2016 19:23:18
Quote from: MotherboardAs with the Bars, Soylent diehards have been posting their Powder 1.6 experiences online, with reports of stomach acid, cramps, and “terrible shits.â€
Reddit user zhandragon, who says their diet is 90 to 100 percent Soylent 1.6 for the last two weeks, reported multiple, pus-filled blisters or abscesses.
Soylent Stops Selling Powder While It Investigates Customer Sickness Complaints (http://motherboard.vice.com/en_uk/read/soylent-recalls-powder-after-more-complaints-of-digestive-distress)
Further studies conducted by a man typing with one hand have revealed that some people mistake distopian fiction for a manual.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Danvzare on Sat 29/10/2016 21:24:46
It's made from PEOPLE!!! 8-0
Which would explain all the bad experiences. I mean come on, every transmittable disease humans can get, is obviously transmittable to other humans. You'd have to be either an idiot or really desperate to resort to eating humans. Rats are probably safer to eat than us.
In all seriousness though, what kind of idiot names their food Soylent? Actually, scratch that, what kind of idiot names their food Soylent and not Soylent Green? (laugh)
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Sat 12/11/2016 01:36:36
I did not know this. Maybe you didn't either.
(this concerns the pre-election protests/riots)
Who Is Behind The Riots? Charlotte Police Says 70% Of Arrested Protesters Had Out Of State IDs (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-09-22/who-behind-riots-charlotte-police-says-70-arrested-protesters-had-out-state-ids)
George Soros funds Ferguson protests, hopes to spur civil action (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/jan/14/george-soros-funds-ferguson-protests-hopes-to-spur/)
These people have legitimate grievances, but at the same time, the mainstream media and other liberal extremists have been exploiting the situation and fuelling division for their own ends.
That would be this guy:
George Soros: The United States Must Stop Resisting The Orderly Decline Of The Dollar, The Coming Global Currency And The New World Order (http://www.zerohedge.com/article/george-soros-united-states-must-stop-resisting-orderly-decline-dollar-coming-global-currency)
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Tue 15/11/2016 17:29:51
Stay Alert, America: The Worst Is Yet to Come (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2016/11/stay-alert-america-worst-yet-come.html)
Yeah, the TPP is gone for now (http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2016/11/11/tpp-obama-administration-gives-trans-pacific-partnership/). Recent history tells us it will probably return with a different name. In that case it will be handy not being called a racist or a sexist for tearing down trump's policies.
The funny thing about this is that it was the typical hardcore hillary supporter who used to argue against me for greater government power and total trustworthyness. Didn't matter what it was: More mass surveillance, loss of individual freedoms and even a completely centralised world government. The bigger and more powerful daddy is the better he can protect you, right? Well, daddy's home now. If trump turns out to be who they think he is, they will learn the hard way why these things are a moronic idea.
If you've got nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear, right?
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Tue 22/11/2016 00:47:33
Twittergate is happening right now. 1000s of twitter Pedophile accounts discovered (http://www.anonews.co/twittergate-twitter/)
BREAKING: Hundreds of child porn accounts exposed on twitter (https://www.reddit.com/r/pizzagate/comments/5e2wmg/breaking_hundreds_of_child_porn_accounts_exposed/)
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Danvzare on Tue 22/11/2016 12:18:31
Are you saying people were naive enough to think pedophiles didn't use Twitter? ???
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Retro Wolf on Tue 22/11/2016 15:31:04
@Danvzare: I think it's normal to think that with a system as public as Twitter, people wouldn't brazenly share child pornography.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: selmiak on Tue 22/11/2016 15:35:51
I'm not buying this whole pizzagate pedophile code thing in the clinton email leaks for ordering pizza, this seems more like a prank by the hacker called 4chan to piss off hillary even more after trump won and do something with all these email leaks. And when the FBI really buys it and starts investigating lulz were had. Pedophiles probably use twitter like everyone else does. People are easily triggered by the words child pronography and will start shitstorms just by reading about it without checking if it's actually true and copy and paste and repost all these 'investigations' they find online thus giving more investigators more sources online. But using twitter to post childpornography seems a bit far fetched, though I don't want to see that and won't click on any twitterlinks to check if it's true. So this is more of a case for Mr. Schroedingers and if people believe it or not.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Danvzare on Tue 22/11/2016 15:40:19
Never underestimate how stupid (or depraved) people can be. Especially here on the internet.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Tue 22/11/2016 17:31:16
I probably should have included some quotes from the anon article, but this is freaky as hell. To sum it up, anonymous started exposing and reporting public pedo accounts on twitter, which contain non-private images, requiring no sign in to view. After a while twitter responded by disabling anon's reporting account @0hour, while leaving some of the reported pedo accounts active. I've seen some people expressing their wishful thinking that it's simply 4chan trolling the internet, but unless you want to believe that anon is doing that now, that theory doesn't float. It's going on 24 hours now and the msm refuse to touch this. I've seen some non-major outlets reporting on it as if twitter has been shutting down pedo accounts they found, leaving out the twittergate tag and the fact that they opted instead to shoot the messenger.
This is the most reputable site I've seen covering what actually happened:
Twitter Suspends User For Reporting Pedophilia Rings; #TwitterGate Erupts (http://www.oneangrygamer.net/2016/11/twitter-suspends-user-for-reporting-pedophilia-rings-twittergate-erupts/17128/)
This should not be confused with pizzagate, but I'll bet that's how anon found these accounts to begin with.
On the subject of pizzagate, there's a rather straight-faced breakdown here. It's another case as in 9/11 of strongly suggestive loose ends and puzzle pieces that beg an official investigation that will never happen:
On The Legitimacy Of This Investigation (with an important message to fellow journalists I know are lurking on this sub) (https://www.reddit.com/r/pizzagate/comments/5e72zv/on_the_legitimacy_of_this_investigation_with_an/) [censored]
On The Legitimacy Of This Investigation (with an important message to fellow journalists I know are lurking on this sub) (https://archive.fo/MrsGu) [mirror]
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Wed 23/11/2016 01:51:36
/r/pizzagate has been shut down by reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/pizzagate/) claiming personal information was posted. Here's the ex-mod calling BS on that (https://voat.co/v/pizzagate/1427921). Meanwhile subs like /r/pedofriends happily continue to operate on reddit.
These stories came out today:
What Is 'Pizzagate' and 'Twittergate' And Why Is Kanye West Involved? (http://www.inquisitr.com/3737216/what-is-pizzagate-and-twittergate-and-why-is-kanye-west-involved-news/)
Pizzagate: British Version Exposed By Australia's '60 Minutes' [Opinion] (http://www.inquisitr.com/3735931/pizzagate-british-version-exposed-by-australians-60-minutes/)
NY Times posted a "fact check" piece without any fact checking, seemingly based on the accused saying "nah-uh": Fake News Onslaught Targets Pizzeria as Nest of Child-Trafficking (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/21/technology/fact-check-this-pizzeria-is-not-a-child-trafficking-site.html)
The Washington Times reports accurately: D.C. power-player tied to Podesta blasts ‘insane' Reddit sleuthing on sex-trafficking ring (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/nov/22/james-alefantis-dc-power-player-blasts-insane-redd/)
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Thu 24/11/2016 01:42:55
[harsh language warning]
Reddit disappears up its own asshole (https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald/comments/5ekdy9/the_admins_are_suffering_from_low_energy_have/dad5sf1/)
Yep. I messed with the “fuck u/spez†comments, replacing "spez" with r/the_donald mods for about an hour. It's been a long week here trying to unwind the r/pizzagate stuff. As much as we try to maintain a good relationship with you all, it does get old getting called a pedophile constantly. As the CEO, I shouldn't play such games, and it's all fixed now. Our community team is pretty pissed at me, so I most assuredly won't do this again.
Quote from: allcompleteFor the sake of some petty revenge, the CEO of Reddit has destroyed not only his own credibility but the entire credibility and trustworthiness of his website.
What it means is that every time any one is ever accused of saying or doing something on Reddit, we can resonably claim that our post was edited by the admins to make us look bad.
The genie is out of the bottle, Reddit will literally never be the same again. /u/spez has in one fell swoop BTFOd his own website, for eternity.
Quote from: shadowman3001You understand the gravity of the massive fireball you just put out there, correct? You have lost the trust of (at least) thousands of users of this website. You have literally, in that petty act, destroyed the credibility of Reddit. Any article that quotes a user post, uncredible. For all people know here, we are all now in danger of the admins throwing child porn into one of our histories, and endangering us.
This is just the beginning. Do not underestimate twittergate/pizzagate. It's bigger than 9/11.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Stupot on Thu 24/11/2016 03:50:17
And if you multiply "pepperoni" by "Madeleine McCann" you get 4815162342.
Seriously though. Maybe some of the high-ups are into kids, and if the Federal Bureau of Reddit can find them, great. But it has nothing to do with pizza.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Thu 24/11/2016 12:10:05
What a knee-slapper. Reddit may have lost its credibility, but I'm sure it'll see many more users join, desperate for some cat pictures to distract them from the systematic protection of child rapists.
Twittergate is not a theory. Twitter has and still is openly protecting its public child porn network. The FBI refuses to investigate, the MSM refuses to cover it. None of them can even make a statement denying it. But let's joke about it.
Never mind that reddit used obviously spurious claims to to nuke an entire community working to expose them, while allowing their own pederast communities to flourish out in the open.
Enjoy this time. When the evidence becomes undeniable you will be asked to add another letter to LGBTx for the poor paedophiles.
1,400 investigated in child sex abuse inquiry, including politicians (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/may/20/1400-suspects-operation-hydrant-politician-and-celebrity-child-sex-abuse-inquiry)
After Election, the Woman Investigating Clinton Foundation Crimes, FOUND DEAD! (http://www.thepoliticalinsider.com/election-woman-investigating-clinton-foundation-crimes-found-dead/)
Plane crash in Malta kills French anti-trafficking team on board (http://www.france24.com/en/20161024-malta-france-plane-crash-aviation)
Survivor of alleged elite paedophile ring including former prime minister speaks out (http://www.news.com.au/national/crime/survivor-of-alleged-elite-paedophile-ring-including-former-prime-minister-speaks-out/news-story/219c1d581d9453b6baf45a0935af214a)
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Mandle on Thu 24/11/2016 14:49:37
Quote from: Jack on Thu 24/11/2016 12:10:05 Twittergate is not a theory. Twitter has and still is openly protecting its public child porn network. The FBI refuses to investigate, the MSM refuses to cover it.
Maybe law enforcement has requested that Twitter not shut down the offending accounts as they are trying to track down the account holders (most likely through a myriad web of proxy servers) and arrest them instead of tipping them off ahead of time that they are busted?
And the reason that Twitter has "silenced" the whistleblower(s) could be that they might be ruining an undercover law enforcement sting operation before it can catch the ring-leaders?
These are the kind of things we read about in the mainstream media only after the operation has run its course...And there have been plenty of such reports over the last few years about exactly these kind of stings nabbing huge CP networks... And in most (in not all) of these cases the mainstream media was also requested by law enforcement to sit on their hands and not report on it, also to avoid tipping off the ring-leaders.
The CP people are skittish and quick to smell a rat, which is how they avoid getting caught for so long, and these are the tactics that law enforcement has adopted to nail them, even if it means, horrible as this is, that CP content gets passed around for a little longer.
They must go for the head of the snake and shut down these huge networks instead of just shoring up the holes that they slip through here and there.
I'm not saying I'm right, but it seems likely to me at least.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Khris on Thu 24/11/2016 17:55:08
Jack, you have proven time and again that you are not as smart as you think you are. Why don't you take break for a few days.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Thu 24/11/2016 18:17:49
Quote from: Mandle on Thu 24/11/2016 14:49:37 Maybe law enforcement has requested that Twitter not shut down the offending accounts as they are trying to track down the account holders (most likely through a myriad web of proxy servers) and arrest them instead of tipping them off ahead of time that they are busted?
This is one possibility that I had considered. It's the only other one that makes sense. The thing is, many of those accounts were years old. If that were the case, then law enforcement has crossed the line into distributing child pornography and supporting that community, rather than hunting them. The other thing is that there are thousands of these accounts. If law enforcement were using their accounts to track and arrest these animals, there would not be nearly as many of them, and they would not be so old. The word is out about these accounts now, and law enforcement and twitter gain nothing by not making a statement at this point. Pizzagate was also seemingly not a threat to anyone until twittergate broke, and then it, and every other related citizen investigation sub, was scrubbed from reddit. Considering all this, I feel that theory is unlikely at best.
Anyway, I got into old habits there and got a bit belligerent before. I will do my best to stick to the moderation which Darth Mandarb so impressively established in the trump thread.
Khris, you may have seen the list of some confirmed false flags (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=53210.msg636539412#msg636539412) I made before. Why do you think germans seem to be so prone to falling for them?
Ok, starting now.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Snarky on Thu 24/11/2016 19:17:04
Quote from: Jack on Thu 24/11/2016 18:17:49 you may have seen the list of some confirmed false flags (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=53210.msg636539412#msg636539412) I made before.
... and absolutely no acknowledgment that the very next post in the thread points out that the Reichstagsfire is NOT a confirmed false flag operation. Why am I not surprised?
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Thu 24/11/2016 19:27:30
It also doesn't contain the 28 pages false flag, where the USG covered up critical leads relating to 9/11 so that they could invade Iraq. (15 years)
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Snarky on Thu 24/11/2016 20:24:49
Oh, I think I'd forgotten that you apparently don't know what a false flag operation is.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Mandle on Thu 24/11/2016 22:39:36
Quote from: Jack on Thu 24/11/2016 18:17:49 This is one possibility that I had considered. It's the only other one that makes sense. The thing is, many of those accounts were years old. If that were the case, then law enforcement has crossed the line into distributing child pornography and supporting that community, rather than hunting them.
For what I understand, undercover cops sometimes pose as drug-dealers or human traffickers for long periods of time, sometimes even for years, during which time they have to actively smuggle drugs/sell to addicts, or watch as victims are trafficked under their noses, probably never to be seen again, while convincingly treating them like human garbage. (It must take a will of steel to do such a job, and play havoc with one's psyche and conscience.)
It can take that long for the agent to earn the trust of the organization to the point where they can gain access to the high-ups' identities and/or the evidence needed to put them away.
The rationale is that if they weren't doing the selling/trafficking then a real criminal would be in that position doing it anyway, and at least this way there is the potential of making a major bust at some point.
It's an effective means of hurting these networks when nothing else can.
And the details of who and for how long are things the public will never know as this would lessen the chances for the next agent to pull it off, hence little fanfare in the media even after the fact: They don't get told the details so they have no meat for a big, ongoing story.
So anyways, yes I still think it's possible that twittergate could still be an example of this kind of sting operation. Not saying it is, but only that it's possible.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: CaesarCub on Fri 25/11/2016 12:28:13
Quote from: Jack on Thu 24/11/2016 12:10:05 Enjoy this time. When the evidence becomes undeniable you will be asked to add another letter to LGBTx for the poor paedophiles.
Ugh, don't, just don't.
I know you say this as a warning about society accepting paedophiles, but the gay community has had a LOT of people equating them to paedophiles. Not only that, but saying this makes it look like you think the whole LGBT+ community are just other types of criminals of which paedophiles are the latest wave.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Sat 26/11/2016 20:53:02
BBC 'turned blind eye' to Savile sex offences on up to 1,000 boys and girls (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/jimmy-savile/10582351/BBC-turned-blind-eye-to-Savile-sex-offences-on-up-to-1000-boys-and-girls.html)
Former BBC boss Mark Thompson 'lied' over Savile evidence, Nick Pollard claims (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/jimmy-savile/10512203/Former-BBC-boss-Mark-Thompson-lied-over-Savile-evidence-Nick-Pollard-claims.html)
Mark Thompson (media executive) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Thompson_%28media_executive%29)
QuoteMark John Thompson (born 31 July 1957) is the current Chief Executive Officer (CEO) of The New York Times Company.
How Thatcher's Government Covered Up a VIP Pedophile Ring (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/03/06/britain-s-horrific-vip-pedophile-cover-up.html)
Was there a paedophile ring in No 10? MP Tom Watson demands probe (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/was-there-a-paedophile-ring-in-no-10-mp-tom-watson-demands-probe-8224702.html)
Details About Donald Trump And Bill Clinton's Relationship With Pedophile Jeffrey Epstein (http://www.inquisitr.com/3678556/details-about-donald-trump-and-bill-clinton-relationship-with-pedophile-jeffrey-epstein/)
Flight Logs Put Clinton, Dershowitz on Pedophile Billionaire's Sex Jet (http://gawker.com/flight-logs-put-clinton-dershowitz-on-pedophile-billio-1681039971) (known as "The Lolita Express")
Corey Feldman on Elijah Wood Hollywood Pedophilia Controversy: "I Would Love to Name Names" (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/corey-feldman-elijah-wood-hollywood-897403)
Laura Silsby and the New Life Children's Refuge case (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Life_Children%27s_Refuge_case)
QuoteOn January 29, 2010, a group of ten American Baptist missionaries from Idaho attempted to cross the Haiti-Dominican Republic border with 33 Haitian children, most of whom were not even orphans and had families. The group, known as the New Life Children's Refuge, did not have proper authorization for transporting the children and were arrested on child trafficking charges.
Trafficking Charges for Adviser to Jailed Americans in Haiti (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/16/world/americas/16haiti.html)
QuoteThe one-time legal adviser, who calls himself Jorge Puello, now acknowledges that he faces sex trafficking charges in El Salvador under the name Jorge Anibal Torres Puello. He remained at large on Monday, as Dominican, Salvadoran and American law enforcement officials worked with Interpol to interview his relatives and search border and immigration records to find him.
Mr. Puello is wanted by the police in at least four countries in connection with charges including sex trafficking of girls and women, and making counterfeit documents and violating parole.
Hillary's office handled the release of the suspects (https://archive.fo/KSORQ)
Franklin Scandal, Linked to ND, Remains Unresolved (http://ndsuspectrum.com/franklin-scandal-linked-nd-remains-unresolved/)
Max Spiers Death: Family, Followers Believe Conspiracy Theorist May Have Been Killed To Prevent Him From Exposing U.S. Military Pedophile Ring (http://www.inquisitr.com/3608047/max-spiers-death-family-followers-believe-conspiracy-theorist-may-have-been-killed-to-prevent-him-from-exposing-u-s-military-pedophile-ring/)
2016-11-25: Photographer David Hamilton found dead in Paris (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/nov/25/photographer-david-hamilton-found-dead-paris?1)
QuoteA police source told Reuters that Hamilton, best known for his pictures of teenage girls, killed himself in Paris. ... The artist, whose whose work often raised questions about the dividing line between art and pornography, was at the centre of a raft of allegations after a French radio presenter accused him of raping her when she was 13.
PizzaGate Hidden Cam: "Little Boys, Children, We All Have Preferences" DC Pedo Ring #PIZZAGATE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTurwPjOVvk)
Are Clinton Insiders Involved in Child Abduction? A Factual Analysis (http://livingresistance.com/2016/11/18/podestas-involved-mccanns-abduction-factual-analysis/)
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: LimpingFish on Sun 27/11/2016 02:24:28
This thread makes me sad. It's just link after link of...nonsense. No offense, Jack, but are these interminable articles/videos that you link to...are you really invested in them, or do you just seek them out to back up your own beliefs? I for one care little about anything you have deemed worthy of interest, and, beyond these conspiracy sites and whatnot, nobody is actually reporting these stories as fact. Now, I know that this actually plays into your worldview, so me saying it's all nonsense will have little effect, but on a strictly pragmatic level...who cares? I mean, isn't life really too short for this? All this time arguing about secret conspiracies and hidden agendas, wouldn't it be better spent on making your own life, and the lives of those around you, better? I'm not taking a stab at you personally, but rather I'm asking everybody who dedicates precious time out of their day to wallow in this kind of thinking...does it really matter?
Or is it simply a way to excuse their own personal failings in life, or turn the focus away from an existence which, if we really dig deep, looks like having little to no impact on the world around them? Most of us will go through life without contributing much to society, in the grand scheme of things, so what I'm really asking is, are these attempts to highlight perceived wrongdoings by The Man/The Illuminati/Whoever really just a desperate attempt to give their lives meaning in a world which really doesn't care if they live or die?
Like I said, it just makes me sad. I have enough to think about in my daily life, and precious room to worry about actual wrongdoings in the world, that conspiracy peddling, which, and let's be honest, diverts attention away from problems that we could actually come together as a people and solve, seems like a colossal waste of time and energy.
Personally, and I believe a mod should have stepped in by now, I think this thread has run it's course, seeing as it's devolved into a one-man link-fest, and nothing worthy of serious debate (to anybody not invested in the world of smoke and shadows) has been presented over the last few pages.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Sun 27/11/2016 02:56:04
If this thread is of no value to anyone here, it should be deleted, like /r/pizzagate, /r/CivilianInvestigators, @0hour, @Eclipse_OW, @WonderChick, etc, etc, etc...
Considering that conspicuous censorship follows this story like death follows the clintons, yes, it matters.
I will not stop.
Bring it.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Gurok on Sun 27/11/2016 03:46:40
Quote from: LimpingFish on Sun 27/11/2016 02:24:28Like I said, it just makes me sad. I have enough to think about in my daily life, and precious room to worry about actual wrongdoings in the world, that conspiracy peddling, which, and let's be honest, diverts attention away from problems that we could actually come together as a people and solve, seems like a colossal waste of time and energy.
Even if you think it's all conspiracy peddling, conspiracies are interesting. If they're turn out to be true, this is foreknowledge. If they're false, it's like modern folklore or urban legends. If you don't believe it, why does it worry you? Did you ever watch Unsolved Mysteries as a kid? Pardon me, but I can't see why anyone with a creative bent who disbelieved the content would see harm in this thread. What a sad outlook you must have.
Also, I am not weighing in on whether I believe or disbelieve stuff mentioned here. I just find it interesting and think it would be sad for the forum if it were let go.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Mandle on Sun 27/11/2016 04:10:17
Quote from: LimpingFish on Sun 27/11/2016 02:24:28Like I said, it just makes me sad. I have enough to think about in my daily life, and precious room to worry about actual wrongdoings in the world, that conspiracy peddling, which, and let's be honest, diverts attention away from problems that we could actually come together as a people and solve, seems like a colossal waste of time and energy.
Even if you think it's all conspiracy peddling, conspiracies are interesting. If they're turn out to be true, this is foreknowledge. If they're false, it's like modern folklore or urban legends. If you don't believe it, why does it worry you? Did you ever watch Unsolved Mysteries as a kid? Pardon me, but I can't see why anyone with a creative bent who disbelieved the content would see harm in this thread. What a sad outlook you must have.
Also, I am not weighing in on whether I believe or disbelieve stuff mentioned here. I just find it interesting and think it would be sad for the forum if it were let go.
I DID WATCH UNSOLVED MYSTERIES!!! It scared the shit out of me as a kid, but also excited me to want to know more, or just make up the answers in my own imagination!
And I love these kind of conspiracy theories for the same reasons!
I have a good mate who is going through a rough patch in his life and whenever I talk about stories like these and try to get a conversation going about "...but what if..." or "...imagine that this is BS, but the actual truth is that..." (which we used to talk like all the time back in the day) he just shuts me down and says "Who cares? I just want to live my life now with no complicated shit to think about...I want to drive a truck and not think anymore..."
This makes me sad, and I hope that he can recapture the feeling of being interested in intriguing stories, believe them or not...
(And it's not an issue of just getting tired of the BS as you get old and grouchy: slasher is over 60 and is currently working on a game about The Mystery Of Oak Island...And I'm so excited about that!)
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Stupot on Sun 27/11/2016 04:11:29
It's certainly interesting. I went down the Pizzagare rabbithole when Jack first mentioned it. My conclusion was that it was no different to the LOST theory rabbitholes I wasted so many hours on when that show was on (hence my earlier 4815162342 joke). Basically, I was seeing the numbers and clues everywhere, going on forums discussing and convincing ourselves that whatever theory of the week was 'definitely true.' This thread Those Reddit threads feel no different. A bunch of internet-dwellers finding clues and building up a false narrative to fine-tune their ever-convincing theories.
[Edited for fatfingeritis cure and a bit of clarification]
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Mandle on Sun 27/11/2016 04:15:55
Quote from: Stupot+ on Sun 27/11/2016 04:11:29 It's certainly interesting. I went diwn the Pizzagare rabbithole when Jack furst mentioned it. My my conclusion ameas that it was no different to the LOST theory rabbitholes I wasted so many hours on when that show was on (hence my warlier 4815162342 joke). Basically, I was on seeing the numbers and clues everywhere, going on forums discussing and convincing ourselves that whatever theory if the week was 'definitely true.' This thread feels no different.
Drunk already at 1PM, mate?
Shame on you!
And/Or:
PARTY ON, DUDE!!!
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Snarky on Sun 27/11/2016 08:22:26
Quote from: Gurok on Sun 27/11/2016 03:46:40 Even if you think it's all conspiracy peddling, conspiracies are interesting. If they're turn out to be true, this is foreknowledge. If they're false, it's like modern folklore or urban legends. If you don't believe it, why does it worry you? Did you ever watch Unsolved Mysteries as a kid? Pardon me, but I can't see why anyone with a creative bent who disbelieved the content would see harm in this thread. What a sad outlook you must have.
Also, I am not weighing in on whether I believe or disbelieve stuff mentioned here. I just find it interesting and think it would be sad for the forum if it were let go.
The recent US election demonstrated the danger of the conspiratorial mindset: it teaches total mistrust and total gullibility. If every authority is part of the grand conspiracy, then any story no matter how well documented can be dismissed as a hoax. And if you've come to believe in these conspiracy theories, then there's hardly any claim too far-fetched to believe. You're free to construct your own parallel reality according to your prejudices and preconceptions.
It's the post-truth world, where expert evaluations, perspective and balanced reporting are dismissed while gigabytes of "evidence" is loosely "interpreted" (cherry-picked) by laypeople who already think they know the answer.
So we're in a situation where obviously fabricated fake news stories (like The Onion without the comedy) are among the most popular on social media, where people reject something reported by the NYT or Washington Post or BBC out of hand (not simply arguing that their coverage is biased and particular articles flawed, but thinking anything that comes out of the mainstream media is automatically discredited) while putting uncritical faith in the tottering towers of speculation by bloggers and tweeters, and the propaganda machines of authoritarian states.
Yes, I think it's clearly been demonstrated that it is harmful to public discourse, and I think it's becoming more and more morally questionable for these forums to provide a platform for it.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Gurok on Sun 27/11/2016 10:43:14
Blind acceptance of authority is just as bad as total abandonment. I'm a proponent of centrism when it comes to these things -- a healthy scepticism for authority.
Quote from: Snarky on Sun 27/11/2016 08:22:26 Yes, I think it's clearly been demonstrated that it is harmful to public discourse, and I think it's becoming more and more morally questionable for these forums to provide a platform for it.
It is strange that you think these ideas are harmful and you have a moral responsibility to protect the the forum from them. I believe there's a sense of personal responsibility everyone should have and that we're all adults here.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Ali on Sun 27/11/2016 11:39:53
I think there is a point where conspiracy theories are damaging in the real world (remember the real world?), and there is a point where many are dangerous and morally repugnant. To his credit, Jack hasn't been pushing the most unpleasant (e.g. Jewish people were warned about the 9/11 attack, the Holocaust was part of a Zionist plan, vaccines cause autism/cancer/Ebola/everything.)
But what makes me angry is how aficionados of conspiracy take such comfort in their 'alternative knowledge', as if they were worshipping a capricious old testament God.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Sun 27/11/2016 13:53:43
QuoteOperation Mockingbird was a campaign by the United States Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) to influence media during the 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s. ... The organization recruited leading American journalists into a propaganda network to help present the CIA's views. It funded some student and cultural organizations and magazines as fronts. As it developed, it also worked to influence foreign media and political campaigns, in addition to activities by other operating units of the CIA.
Operation Mass Appeal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mass_Appeal)
QuoteOperation Mass Appeal was an operation set up by the British Secret Intelligence Service (MI6) in the runup to the 2003 invasion of Iraq. It was a campaign aimed at planting stories in the media about Iraq's alleged weapons of mass destruction. The existence of the operation was exposed in December 2003, although officials denied that the operation was deliberately disseminating misinformation. The MI6 operation secretly incorporated the United Nations Special Commission investigating Iraq's alleged stockpiles of Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD) into its propaganda efforts by recruiting UN weapons inspector and former MI6 collaborator Scott Ritter to provide copies of UN documents and reports on their findings to MI6.
The CIA's Mop-Up Man: L.A. Times Reporter Cleared Stories With Agency Before Publication (https://theintercept.com/2014/09/04/former-l-times-reporter-cleared-stories-cia-publication/)
SCRIPT - Top 10 Staged Media Events! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHDDQVZ-A98)
CNN Caught Out With Fake Trump Protester - A CNN Cameraman (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W26aqd35LUU)
Jeff Gannon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Gannon)
Fake news is the yellowcake forgery (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niger_uranium_forgeries).
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Snarky on Sun 27/11/2016 15:54:24
Quote from: Gurok on Sun 27/11/2016 10:43:14 Blind acceptance of authority is just as bad as total abandonment. I'm a proponent of centrism when it comes to these things -- a healthy scepticism for authority.
Sure, but when was the last time people in a democracy overwhelmingly blindly accepted something, just because it was stated by an authority?
Quote from: Snarky on Sun 27/11/2016 08:22:26 Yes, I think it's clearly been demonstrated that it is harmful to public discourse, and I think it's becoming more and more morally questionable for these forums to provide a platform for it.
It is strange that you think these ideas are harmful and you have a moral responsibility to protect the the forum from them. I believe there's a sense of personal responsibility everyone should have and that we're all adults here.
The ideas themselves are mostly just foolish. It's the aggregate effect I think is harmful. It undermines the ability to have arguments grounded in reality, because who's to say what reality is? Global warming? Could be a Chinese hoax. Obama was supposedly born in Hawaii and supposedly went to Harvard, and there's plenty of documentary evidence of that, but who's to say it hasn't all been doctored? A Clinton staffer dies in a mugging? Well, that's what the police, his family, and mainstream investigative journalists say, but here's a blogger who thinks he was murdered, and Julian Assange has hinted the same, and we all know the Clintons are evil, so clearly that's a more likely story...
Doctors go through much the same thing, with their "science" and "western medicine" and "expertise" dismissed in favor of self-taught internet research and "alternative knowledge" cults (e.g. vaccines cause autism, pro-anorexia, Morgellons disease, gang stalking). And certainly physicians are not infrequently wrong, and medical science has some serious flaws, but is this "alternative knowledge" in any way helpful?
The irony is that this kind of paranoid thinking, when widely adopted, opens the door to an Orwellian nightmare far more oppressive than the groupthink of mainstream media. In Turkey just this week, some 15 000 government employees (mostly cops and military personnel) were purged for supposedly belonging to a conspiracy (links to the coup or the PKK). That makes more than 100 000 people sacked or arrested so far. Needless to say, if the coup attempt really had the support of 100 000 people inside the government, it would have been far more successful than it turned out to be. But hey, proper investigations, burden of proof and all that is for the sheeple.
This (http://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2016/11/23/503146770/npr-finds-the-head-of-a-covert-fake-news-operation-in-the-suburbs), for example.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Sun 27/11/2016 17:44:06
Quote from: Snarky on Sun 27/11/2016 15:54:24 This (http://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2016/11/23/503146770/npr-finds-the-head-of-a-covert-fake-news-operation-in-the-suburbs), for example.
QuoteHe says he got into fake news around 2013 to highlight the extremism of the white nationalist alt-right.
"The whole idea from the start was to build a site that could kind of infiltrate the echo chambers of the alt-right, publish blatantly or fictional stories and then be able to publicly denounce those stories and point out the fact that they were fiction," Coler says.
In other words, he ran his sites to subvert the "alt-right" with a form of strawman argument.
Here an investigator does essentially the same to the far left to see if their reports are vetted: Trump-Inspired Harassment Hoaxes | A Case Study (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5fg1OfH018)
It's also funny that this "fake news" is so much more dangerous than the confirmed fake news peddled by the establishment, which has led so far to over 100,000 civilian deaths in just one of the countries unlawfully invaded and occupied (Iraq).
People won't soon forget that outlets now hysterically screaming "fake news" are the same who blatantly tried to steal an election for hillary.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: LimpingFish on Mon 28/11/2016 01:40:04
What? Bring what? A Chicken Pot Pie? Less links? You've side-stepped the actual meaning of my post, and instead responded to it as an attack on your liberty, so I'll repeat and expand upon it. What is the function of this thread, beyond being a repository for your link cache? Who are you trying to reach? Conspiracy peddlers only appeal to other conspiracy peddlers, which is why conspiracy peddlers function best in an echo chamber. Norms/squares/sheeple simply don't care and therefore go unexposed to your views. So...what is the point? Why go out of your way to invite conflict and antagonism into an otherwise peaceful environment? To what end? You're introducing thoughts and opinions, from people who aren't here, as fact, leaving me with little room to build a debate. Do I personally believe these thoughts and opinions? No. Do I believe you believe them? Very much so. Where is the room for debate? Who am I supposed to debate with? You or the people you link to? What do you ultimately get from this thread?
Quote from: Gurok on Sun 27/11/2016 03:46:40 Pardon me, but I can't see why anyone with a creative bent who disbelieved the content would see harm in this thread. What a sad outlook you must have.
Equating creativity with a low tolerance for bullshit seems like a bit of a stretch. The harm doesn't come from the content of this thread. It comes from the unflinching arrogance, rush to conflict, and, frankly, insulting self-righteousness that accompanies the posting of such content. I see the same harm inflicted by hard-line theists (and atheists, for that matter) who peddle their own brand of bullish, self-aggrandizing, fancy. This has nothing to do with whether I believe the pyramids were the chariots of the gods.
And my outlook is happy as a clam, thank you for asking. :)
Quote from: Stupot+ on Sun 27/11/2016 04:11:29 Those Reddit threads feel no different. A bunch of internet-dwellers finding clues and building up a false narrative to fine-tune their ever-convincing theories.
Agreed. One of the many reasons why Reddit is such a shit-show, and this community isn't.
Quote from: Ali on Sun 27/11/2016 11:39:53 To his credit, Jack hasn't been pushing the most unpleasant (e.g. Jewish people were warned about the 9/11, the Holocaust was part of a Zionist plan, vaccines cause autism/cancer/Ebola/everything.)
True.
Although I do find it interesting how choosy conspiracy enthusiasts can be in how they determine the veracity of one conspiracy over the next. Where in the chain does the ultimate believability break down? When it strays into racism? And how do I determine a "good" conspiracy peddler from a bad one, when their purported conspiracies may themselves be nothing more than a springboard used to introduce more harmful, extremist views?
All in all, I stand by my view that this thread has become (or may always have been) less about debating conflicting worldviews, and more about a handful of people (or rather one person, now that Monkey424 hasn't posted in a while) with a desire to be taken seriously, but incapable of constructing a meaningful dialog (links are not an argument, and regurgitating third-party opinions is not a debate) without resorting to name-calling.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Andail on Mon 28/11/2016 07:17:22
Quote from: Jack on Sun 27/11/2016 17:44:06 It's also funny that this "fake news" is so much more dangerous than the confirmed fake news peddled by the establishment, which has led so far to over 100,000 civilian deaths in just one of the countries unlawfully invaded and occupied (Iraq).
I don't think that counts as some kind of hushed up conspiracy; that was just the Bush administration being stubborn and really needing a reason to go to war. It was widely known - at least outside of the USA - that Iraq didn't have WMDs, that they weren't linked to the 9/11, and that the invasion would be unjustified. Any serious news outlet at the time would have cited Hans Blix and his UN committee explaining exactly this; what you chose to listen to instead is another matter.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: selmiak on Mon 28/11/2016 10:59:21
Is it true they download the internet to recreate 1984?
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Mon 28/11/2016 11:40:58
Links to my previous postings on pizzagate and institutional paedophilia:
Link 1 (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=53210.msg636548568#msg636548568) (twittergate breaks and NYT presents a fact check without facts) Link 2 (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=53210.msg636548700#msg636548700) (1,400 people including government officials investigated for paedophilia in the UK, people investigating trafficking end up dead) Link 3 (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=53210.msg636548872#msg636548872) (a mass of links showing how the BBC, including the current head of NYT, covered up the savile case, and a known VIP paedophile ring under thatcher. Former child actors speak out on hollywood's paedophilia. Child traffickers released by the office of hillary clinton, and more)
Quote from: Andail on Mon 28/11/2016 07:17:22 Any serious news outlet at the time would have cited Hans Blix and his UN committee explaining exactly this; what you chose to listen to instead is another matter.
I don't dispute this. My point was that, practically all of the ones accepted as above reproach, the mainstream media, presented this false evidence, enough to sway public opnion. I showed before that in britain the government itself used mainstream outlets to present these false claims as fact (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mass_Appeal). These are the same now accusing everyone else of fake news.
That's not a hushed up conspiracy. It's a known conspiracy. If my links are so damaging to the social fabric, why are the peddlers of confirmed fake news, which causes untold suffering, given a pass?
Quote from: Andail on Mon 28/11/2016 07:17:22 It was widely known - at least outside of the USA - that Iraq didn't have WMDs, that they weren't linked to the 9/11, and that the invasion would be unjustified.
So they only peddled lies where public opinion was required to go to war. Again, I don't dispute this.
If I were posting conspiracy editorials, there would be no argument, you would ask where the proof is. Well, here it is, as much as they're allowed to publish. Pizzagate alone presents more than enough circumstantial evidence to warrant a full official investigation. Unless you want to pretend that the police sketches of madeleine mccan's abductors don't look conspicuously like the pedostas. That they didn't used to stay at a friend's house (a known paedophile), less than a kilometer from where she was abducted? That bill clinton never rode on the "lolita express"? That someone didn't email pedosta saying that her children would be in the pool for entertainment?
Here are the sketches, kept from the public for five years:
This thread is for people who find it useful. If it makes you sad, afraid, angry: Don't read it.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Snarky on Mon 28/11/2016 11:47:24
Hey, here's some actually intriguing alternative knowledge: A NASA test tentatively confirms that the "impossible" EM Drive (it violates conservation of momentum) seems to work, as reported in a journal paper that just passed peer review. If this is real and can be scaled up, the potential applications for space travel are very exciting, since it would make constantly-accelerating ships feasible without the need to store large quantities of fuel. Particularly for long-distance space travel, that would speed things up enormously.
That said, the experimental effects observed so far are tiny, and since it does appear to violate the laws of physics we should probably remain skeptical:
It's neither of those. It makes me roll my eyes. You see yourself as the lightbringer, waking up the people who gullibly consume MSM. But let me repeat: you are *not* smarter than the average conspiracy crackpot. You may think so, but there's really no meaningful difference between you and monkey424.
The fact alone that you happily cite MSM whenever it agrees with you makes your entire approach to "truth" laughable. You are up to your eyeballs in confirmation bias, true belief and unfalsifiable convictions. You simply haven't noticed yet.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Scavenger on Mon 28/11/2016 14:02:38
The fact that it originated on /r/The_Donald alone should ring some alarm bells, because, maybe there's some conflict of interest there? They are really really stretching to find anything to pin on anybody there.
I mean come on, they're even doing the illuminati triangles thing.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Danvzare on Mon 28/11/2016 14:33:06
Quote from: Jack on Mon 28/11/2016 11:40:58 Unless you want to pretend that the police sketches of madeleine mccan's abductors don't look conspicuously like the pedostas. That they didn't used to stay at a friend's house (a known paedophile), less than a kilometer from where she was abducted?
I thought we had already established that those sketches look like her father. In other words, her parents killed her. >:(
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Jack on Mon 28/11/2016 17:48:45
Notice how they "debunk" all the low hanging fruit? How half their article is made up of alefantis saying "nah-uh"? The NYT article, which everyone in the MSM and their shill grandma is referencing, doesn't even bother with the former and only contains the latter. Should ring some alarm bells. Debunking the most ridiculous theories does not mean an investigation is over. And really, no one should be relying on a single site for absolute truth.
And Khris, you can save the ad hominem. You're not dealing with one of your people here. The MSM links are not for my benefit.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Ali on Mon 28/11/2016 18:08:52
Under President Trump all criminals will have names that reveal their crimes in French, and everyone will believe six impossible things before breakfast.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Khris on Mon 28/11/2016 22:11:31
Nope. The most fervent audience a conspiracy believer can have is one made up of other conspiracy believers. A feedback loop is created, reinforcing the views of the believers and the veracity of the conspiracy itself. Without that feedback loop, you get an individual who looks less like a champion of truth, and more like an angry outsider who sees shadowy cabals behind every injustice (real or imagined) they feel they have suffered. But for arguments sake, I'll add a hearty "In my humble opinion..."
However, this thread is pretty close to becoming circular and kind of pointless. I'm not too fond of the entire premise of this thread, nor its title, and would prefer if specific topics could be treated in individual threads.
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Snarky on Tue 29/11/2016 10:18:15
Having wasted a little bit of time looking at the Pizzagate "evidence" (with damning proof such as "someone once used the word 'afterparty'", "there's art by an artist who has done other work that would be inappropriate to display", and "a friend of theirs went to Burning Man" â€" which they seem to think is some kind of witches' sabbath... yes, this is a literal witch hunt), it occurs to me that it would be pretty easy to put together a similar dossier of circumstantial evidence that AGS is a pedophile ring, starting with the highly suspicious americangirlscouts.org URL (what is this, a group that scouts for little American girls?) and "Mittens" (which represent childhood, and visually resemble, if arranged a certain way, the butterfly in one of the umpteen secret pedophile signs). I'm sure if you go looking you'd find that some forum members have some kind of connection with some sex offenders, so that's guilt by association right there. Add in some off-color jokes and bits taken out of context from various games, old forum posts and IRC, and voilà  ! Who will dare expose this powerful conspiracy?
Title: Re: Alternative Knowledge
Post by: Snarky on Tue 29/11/2016 11:50:21
Post deleted and thread locked in response to member complaint, and because the AGS Forums will not be used for harassment against individuals or to spread allegations based on flimsy circumstantial inferences. Posting pictures of children implying that they're the victims of sexual abuse based on nothing but speculation particularly crosses the line.