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AGS Support => Beginners' Technical Questions => Topic started by: DWR on Sat 06/10/2018 19:25:26

Title: AGS Editor (Build 3.4.1.15) 8-Bit Software Renderer Winsetup Glitch
Post by: DWR on Sat 06/10/2018 19:25:26
After changing to 8-bit mode in the AGS editor, updating the default to 'Software driver' in the 'Default Setup' tab, recompiling, it then seems to remove the option to pick 'Software renderer' from the Winsetup 'Driver:' drop down box. Changing back to '32-bit (true-colour)' mode and recompiling seems to restore the 'Software renderer' option to Winsetup.
Title: Re: AGS Editor (Build 3.4.1.15) 8-Bit Software Renderer Winsetup Glitch
Post by: Crimson Wizard on Sat 06/10/2018 21:36:40
I have no idea how that could happen. Do you still have a game project with broken winsetup? If so could you upload it for me to check?
Title: Re: AGS Editor (Build 3.4.1.15) 8-Bit Software Renderer Winsetup Glitch
Post by: DWR on Sat 06/10/2018 21:46:21
Here (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1HX8-p4bU0n_6sal6_toeS_Qc-HKX78do), but literally all you have to do is create a new AGS project, change it to 8-bit, recompile it. Then run the winsetup, it removes the 'Software renderer' from the drop down, and 'save' or 'save and run' breaks the game.
Title: Re: AGS Editor (Build 3.4.1.15) 8-Bit Software Renderer Winsetup Glitch
Post by: Crimson Wizard on Sat 06/10/2018 22:04:21
Quote from: darkworldrabbit on Sat 06/10/2018 21:46:21
Here (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1HX8-p4bU0n_6sal6_toeS_Qc-HKX78do), but literally all you have to do is create a new AGS project, change it to 8-bit, recompile it. Then run the winsetup, it removes the 'Software renderer' from the drop down, and 'save' or 'save and run' breaks the game.

Problem is, I did a quick test, but that error did not happen to me.
I will try your game and see if I can learn something from it.
Title: Re: AGS Editor (Build 3.4.1.15) 8-Bit Software Renderer Winsetup Glitch
Post by: DWR on Sat 06/10/2018 22:17:10
REALLY? That's disheartening, is there any circumstance when 'Software renderer' shouldn't be in the drop down? Cause here's a screenshot of it not showing in the dropdown.
image (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SXXQ4IEiltNHFu8cY8_fwvtWxqgRGqh8/view)
(http://gdurl.com/txBL)

Are you getting the glitch with the files I uploaded?
Title: Re: AGS Editor (Build 3.4.1.15) 8-Bit Software Renderer Winsetup Glitch
Post by: Crimson Wizard on Sat 06/10/2018 22:47:50
Quote from: darkworldrabbit on Sat 06/10/2018 22:17:10
REALLY? That's disheartening, is there any circumstance when 'Software renderer' shouldn't be in the drop down? Cause here's a screenshot of it not showing in the dropdown.
image (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SXXQ4IEiltNHFu8cY8_fwvtWxqgRGqh8/view)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/DtnVlZUHYPi6UVLZpV_2V3Iqu569dZInf2SrdBvw7xqAup68DejA45gHIjittFTbS_AGVTC-zYu33A=w1920-h954)

I think this is the first time in my memory I see something like this. Theoretically this means the driver failed to initialize, but Software driver has very simple initialization that does not require anything installed on system (unlike Direct3D and OpenGL).

At the same time I can actually see "Software" driver in the setup of your game, which may mean this is system related.
But I am still getting the second part of your problem: game is crashing when launched, and that happens regardless of gfx driver that I choose. I do not yet know if the crash and missing software driver selection are connected.
The crash may actually be happening because you switched to 8-bit mode while keeping old 32-bit graphics in game, and that causes errors (not sure).

My blind guess so far is that some error occurs silently inside the program when setup is trying to receive a list of supported graphic modes for 8-bit software renderer, and this is how the option does not get to the selection list. But that's really something weird. I need to think how to proceed with investigation here.
Title: Re: AGS Editor (Build 3.4.1.15) 8-Bit Software Renderer Winsetup Glitch
Post by: DWR on Sat 06/10/2018 23:00:28
AGStest2 (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1-KcqsZb-nD5t2HpveYEf4FRx2UieS4Sz), here's an mp3 version, same problem.

I'm using the sierra template so I don't have to create a room, but I've gotten this same bug when using an 'empty' template. Let me know if and what else I can do to help track this down.

But you believe this is a glitch unique to my computer?
Title: Re: AGS Editor (Build 3.4.1.15) 8-Bit Software Renderer Winsetup Glitch
Post by: Crimson Wizard on Sat 06/10/2018 23:12:48
Oh, my bad, looking in the code I've actually remembered that renderer is not available in the list when the engine reported zero supported graphics modes for that particular color depth. Which may explain why it's not in the list.

What system do you have? If that's something modern like Windows 10, there's chance that DirectX simply does not support running game in 8-bit mode.

At the same time I believe that the game crash has a separate nature, and probably related to mismatching color depth of game and room background. When you compile the game for the first time you should get a warning that you won't be able to use 32-bit room background in a 8-bit game. Of course it should not crash like this, so I'll investigate this further when I have time. But my strongest recommendation will be to create your own 8-bit room background and 8-bit sprites for characters and objects.
Title: Re: AGS Editor (Build 3.4.1.15) 8-Bit Software Renderer Winsetup Glitch
Post by: DWR on Sat 06/10/2018 23:16:52
Yes I have Windows 10... so 8-bit mode Winsetup will be broken for anyone with Windows 10?

But, if I don't run the Winsetup, and 'break it' (never save settings changed with Winsetup), I can still run the game in 8-bit using the 'default setup' settings in the editor... Like it still works. There's something hinky there.
Title: Re: AGS Editor (Build 3.4.1.15) 8-Bit Software Renderer Winsetup Glitch
Post by: Crimson Wizard on Sat 06/10/2018 23:19:50
Quote from: darkworldrabbit on Sat 06/10/2018 23:16:52
Yes I have Windows 10... so 8-bit mode Winsetup will be broken for anyone with Windows 10?

It's not exactly broken, that would be correct behavior to not display renderer that cannot work with the game on this particular system.
TBH I do not know if there is a way to make it work with 8-bit games on Windows 10. We need to ask around if anyone else had this problem before.


Quote from: darkworldrabbit on Sat 06/10/2018 23:16:52
But, if I don't run the Winsetup, and 'break it' (never save settings changed with Winsetup), I can still run the game in 8-bit using the 'default setup' settings in the editor... Like it still works. There's something hinky there.

Hmm, this is actually strange to hear, because it keeps crashing for me no matter what I choose in setup...
When running the game press Ctrl+Alt+V and it will display what renderer it uses. Engine may automatically switch renderers at startup if some do not work.
Title: Re: AGS Editor (Build 3.4.1.15) 8-Bit Software Renderer Winsetup Glitch
Post by: DWR on Sat 06/10/2018 23:24:42
So I figured out a workaround, if you compile a Winsetup and acsetup.cfg from a 32-bit game, and replace the ones compiled by the editor in 8-bit mode, everything still works. Software renderer is still there. At least for me. But this means, that I have to remember to replace the winsetup/cfg anytime I recompile, especially before I release it to anyone.

This is not true, I made a mistake somewhere. Hold on.
Title: Re: AGS Editor (Build 3.4.1.15) 8-Bit Software Renderer Winsetup Glitch
Post by: Crimson Wizard on Sat 06/10/2018 23:35:39
Setting the renderer you want as default in Default Setup editor pane is enough for releasing your game. When you are editing settings using winsetup, the default acsetup.cfg is not changed, instead it writes to a different config file located in your user files (%USERPROFILE%/Saved Games/<your game name>).

It is possible to edit that acsetup.cfg file by hand (it's simply a text file in INI format) and put "software" graphics driver name there.

But if that driver could not initialize in winsetup then it probably won't initialize in game too. In such case engine will try to choose another driver. To make things certain, you may always use "Ctrl + Alt + V" key combination inside game to see what renderer is really active.


Running 8-bit games with Direct3D or OpenGL is possible, but these renderers are not perfect for 8-bit and may not display everything correctly.

If you don't mind telling, what is the reason you chose to make a 8-bit game? Not many people use this mode today.
Title: Re: AGS Editor (Build 3.4.1.15) 8-Bit Software Renderer Winsetup Glitch
Post by: DWR on Sat 06/10/2018 23:39:31
Does the ctrl+alt+v work in an empty game? I think the crash you're getting is from there being 32 bit sprites in an 8 bit game.
I can get an empty game to load, the screen is totally black, and ctrl+alt+v doesn't seem to do -anything- in game.
Title: Re: AGS Editor (Build 3.4.1.15) 8-Bit Software Renderer Winsetup Glitch
Post by: Crimson Wizard on Sat 06/10/2018 23:46:21
Quote from: darkworldrabbit on Sat 06/10/2018 23:39:31
I can get an empty game to load, the screen is totally black, and ctrl+alt+v doesn't seem to do -anything- in game.

Yes it should. I just tested with empty 8-bit game.
Hmm, maybe you are pressing them too early? The default room transition is "fade-in" and takes a second during which displaying information does not work.
Other than that, personally I have issue with software renderer in 8-bit and 16-bit modes (on Windows 7) that sometimes it does not redraw the window. Try moving window around after pressing keys.
Title: Re: AGS Editor (Build 3.4.1.15) 8-Bit Software Renderer Winsetup Glitch
Post by: DWR on Sat 06/10/2018 23:49:37
I am so confused... Maybe you can 'splain this. Empty project, compiled, got this -once- before it went back to it's old behavior. I screenshot it immediately, before it could convince me I was crazy.
image (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gJCC79p_Bp3_OkZL4hfddSpF9XtTuq7e/view)
(https://gdurl.com/GHtj)
And it -is- set to 8-bit, you can see that 320 x 200 x 8.
Shouldn't this be impossible to get since my system doesn't support 8-bit? If your theory is correct?
Title: Re: AGS Editor (Build 3.4.1.15) 8-Bit Software Renderer Winsetup Glitch
Post by: Crimson Wizard on Sat 06/10/2018 23:57:35
No, I cannot explain this, rather than suppose that it works randomly on your system, or there is something else that is impacting it.

Did you have any luck with displaying information in game?

EDIT: all this needs proper investigation, but quick search in the internet showed people are suggesting setting "Windows 98 compatibility mode" for the exe that needs DirectX 5 support (this is what Software renderer is using). I can't tell if thats a good idea or not.
Title: Re: AGS Editor (Build 3.4.1.15) 8-Bit Software Renderer Winsetup Glitch
Post by: DWR on Sun 07/10/2018 00:02:17
CTRL + ALT + V will not show the information message in 8-bit mode. I assume, because it's not rendering properly.
It does work in 32bit mode.
I am trying to be helpful, I know I've got to be giving you so much confusing information, but honestly, I'm just sharing with you, what it's doing for me.

So essentially, there's really no way to know if this is something unique to my system, windows 10 systems in general, or something else altogether.

If this is something that affects all Windows 10s, then I guess the logical thing to do, is I should switch to 32bit mode for my game anyways, many of the people I hope to share my game with use Windows 10.

I just don't know.
Title: Re: AGS Editor (Build 3.4.1.15) 8-Bit Software Renderer Winsetup Glitch
Post by: Crimson Wizard on Sun 07/10/2018 00:07:41
Maybe wait for the few days and see if someone had similar experience. Although not many people are making non-32-bit games today.

That may be worth asking other Windows 10 users to try some 8-bit AGS games on their computers.
Title: Re: AGS Editor (Build 3.4.1.15) 8-Bit Software Renderer Winsetup Glitch
Post by: DWR on Sun 07/10/2018 00:22:36
I'll do that if I can find anyone willing. But considering this is for a MAGS game, I really will be better off just using 32bit mode. I had hoped to play with some palette effects, but eh, it's not worth the instability across different platforms. I can still get an '8-bit effect' by controlling color counts in my assets, as far as the player is concerned it'll be identical, minus the palette effects.

QuoteAlthough not many people are making non-32-bit games today.
Shame too, more people should use it, heck, the Retro Palette Swapper is one of the most popular assets on the Game Maker Studio 2 marketplace. The palette options in AGS coulda been used the same way if I could get it to work.
Title: Re: AGS Editor (Build 3.4.1.15) 8-Bit Software Renderer Winsetup Glitch
Post by: Crimson Wizard on Sun 07/10/2018 02:36:52
Ok, just an update; after discussion on Discord it was found that AGS is only able to run 8-bit games in windowed mode. In 3.4.1 winsetup tests whether renderer supports fullscreen modes and hides it from selection list if it does not.

The right solution is perhaps to keep the renderer in the list but lock mode selection in "windowed" state. I will try to make the test build tomorrow.
Title: Re: AGS Editor (Build 3.4.1.15) 8-Bit Software Renderer Winsetup Glitch
Post by: Crimson Wizard on Tue 09/10/2018 02:44:22
UPDATE: Ok, darkworldrabbit found that's apparently it is enough to set compatibility with Windows Vista (maybe lower too) for winsetup.exe to make it work correctly. That's kind of silly we did not try that first.

I've read it may be possible to embed compatibility option inside exe too, which may be another option. But this needs research, and also we do not actually have sources for winsetup.exe itself (we have it only in already compiled form inside editor resources), so this will take some spare time to resolve properly.