Ignorance & spam promoting idiocy (rant/long).

[Nacho]

Well, Igor, that sentence that made your eyer roll was a stupid simplification, made by me, which I´m not very proud about   But I still believe that there is something wrong in their education, something  that I can´t see clear...

DG: You haven´t answered my question: My intention was you to say: "Yes, they´re more muslim terrorist, but because of bla bla bla..." and they, trying to explain which are they motivations, reaching to a final and common conclussion, but if you don´t want to discuss, ok, no problemo,  .

SSH: Yes, scottish, as usual, good point.

So, let´s turn the argument. One powerful Muslim country (Or Sintoist, or Hindú or David Koreshian, I don´t mind...) Invades a Cristian country, let´s suppose, France, ok? (Analogy, US attacks Iraq)

There are three more smaller Muslims countries whose leaders support the invasion of that country, ok? (Analogy, Spain, UK, Portugal)

Should I run to join a terrorist group to attack one of thet two little countires? The answer is: No. If some Muslim attacks France, fuck la France!  

Attacking an ally? Why? What have that guys made to me? It´s problems is with the french guys, why should I deal with their problem?

But that´s what many or Moroccoean guys are doing.  4 spanish guys have been killed by terrorist acts in Marocco. 9 more in Iraq. 13 spanish people in the last 5 months, that´s more than ETA in the last 4 years.

So... my point is... There is some "fuckin´ strange thing" in the muslim religion/culture/way of behave that make them fight like crazy fundamentalists as soon as something wrong happen in one of their countries. What is that? I dunno, but that creates my lack of confidence in them, excuse me people!

Could somebody explain me what it is?

Why are they killing spaniards? The polls show that 92 % of the spanish people was againt the war in Iraq...

Why do they hate us?

I have no reason to have a little unconfidence against muslims?

[Darth Mandarb]

I got an e-mail that's subject was:

"Attention: Your account (my e-mail address) will be deleted in 92 hours"

Then the e-mail iteself was for perscription Viagra online.

I guess Spam really is promoting ignorance!!

I mean, if spammers have to hide/disguise the subject line so as not to get filtered into spam, shouldn't they clue in to the fact that they're doing something wrong?

How many of you get this: v-i*@-g"r#a online!! as a subject line.  Or "Low M-O-R-T-G-A-G-E rates!!"  These moron [scumbag] spammers.

I say we set up a website that tracks down spammers.  Anybody finds a spammer we find their personal e-mail address and send them 1000 e-mails a day!!  See how they like it.

])]v[

[shbaz]

You keep saying Palestineans are totally religiously motivated.. Are you familiar at all with that rivalry?  Israel was founded after WWII when a lot of Jewish people rightfully didn't feel at home in Europe anymore.  So they tryed to take back their holy land.. from the Palestineans.  Israel was not officially in existance, Palestine was there, then Israelis took over with justification from the UN.  Basicaly their rights were voted away by foreign countries, and Israel gets super-awesome military toys from the US while Palestine is defending its freedom and right to keep their nation with what few machine guns and ammo they can get.  Fair fight?  No.  So what do you do when a bully is kicking your ass and you can't get out of it?  You take a cheap shot at his balls.  It's not honorable, but if they want to exist terrorism is about the only way they can fight back and get results.  That is the same reason Osama sent his boys into our towers.. I don't think he'd be able to make a statement by sending an invasion force and they are royally pissed about our military presence in their religious holy land of Saudi Arabia.  Did you know that?  That is the whole reason the Muslim people are angry in the first place.

Again, I'm not saying "terrorism is good" but you're mixing up your points and facts again.

[Nacho]

You keep saying Palestineans are totally religiously motivated.. Are you familiar at all with that rivalry?  Israel was founded after WWII when a lot of Jewish people rightfully didn't feel at home in Europe anymore.  So they tryed to take back their holy land.. from the Palestineans.  Israel was not officially in existance, Palestine was there, then Israelis took over with justification from the UN.  Basicaly their rights were voted away by foreign countries, and Israel gets super-awesome military toys from the US while Palestine is defending its freedom and right to keep their nation with what few machine guns and ammo they can get.  Fair fight?  No.  So what do you do when a bully is kicking your ass and you can't get out of it?  You take a cheap shot at his balls.  It's not honorable, but if they want to exist terrorism is about the only way they can fight back and get results.  That is the same reason Osama sent his boys into our towers.. I don't think he'd be able to make a statement by sending an invasion force and they are royally pissed about our military presence in their religious holy land of Saudi Arabia.  Did you know that?  That is the whole reason the Muslim people are angry in the first place.

Again, I'm not saying "terrorism is good" but you're mixing up your points and facts again.

Ok... some facts:

1) Palestina was a British protectorate, they had the right to make with it what they wanted.

2) 5 countries attacked a bunch of jewish people (Iraq, Sirya, Egypt, Jordania and Lebanon), people who had just came from the nazi´s Camps, incomplishing the first UN resolution. Well, if that´s an example of way of behave of the "good guys", the muslims, thanks, you´ve answered my question in the way I wanted. \o/

3) The Jewish offered the palestinian to remain in Israel, and became jewish citizens, with full rights (30% of the population of Israel are muslims, descendents of those people).

4) The palestinian who left, did it because the attacking countries promised them to kill all the Jewish and "paint the Mediterranean sea of Red with the dripping blood of the Jewish´ cutthroads"

5) The 5 countires lost the war, and, as they didn´t knew what to do with the palestinians, most of the countries took a "nice decission": killing them (Do you know that Jordania is the country in the world which has killed more Palestinians in History?)

6) Palestinians do not fight for freedon... As close they´re of having a free country, more suicidals come and kill 20-30 jewish. Palestinians terrorist groups are not fighting for the independence of Palestina, their foundational letters talk of "The total destruction of the infidel State of Israel".

I think that you must re-read you history notes, Mr. Shbazjinkens.

[DGMacphee]

DG: You haven´t answered my question: My intention was you to say: "Yes, they´re more muslim terrorist, but because of bla bla bla..." and they, trying to explain which are they motivations, reaching to a final and common conclussion, but if you don´t want to discuss, ok, no problemo,  .

Reaching a final and common conclussion?

On this forum?

Crikey, good luck!

And just because I'm putting forth alternate questions to your argument, doesn't mean I don't want to discuss it.

So, don't get stroppy, matey!


Also, how can you claim that Palestinians are not fighting for independence when the hegemony of the country shifts from Palestinian ownership to zionist Jewish ownership?

[SSH]

1) Palestina was a British protectorate, they had the right to make with it what they wanted.

Does that mean that we can keep Gibraltar, then?

[DGMacphee]

And you can do whatever you want with it too!

Make another chunnel!

[Nacho]

SSH: "we"?

You´re scottish... Gibraltar own to the damn Engl154!!11!  

And, yeah... you can keep the rock! It stinks!  

[shbaz]

I think you must re-evaluate your interpretation of history, given your claim that you understand such things as why there are terrorists.

1) Palestina was a British protectorate, they had the right to make with it what they wanted.

And Palestinians have the right to oppose the decision of the foreign country attempting to give away their lands.. I don't think we call New York a colony here in the US anymore you know.

2) 5 countries attacked a bunch of jewish people (Iraq, Sirya, Egypt, Jordania and Lebanon), people who had just came from the nazi´s Camps, incomplishing the first UN resolution. Well, if that´s an example of way of behave of the "good guys", the muslims, thanks, you´ve answered my question in the way I wanted. \o/

Um, once again these are people being ganged up on by the world with their lands being taken away by the Jews.. regardless of who they are, they were causing a huge disruption in the culture. I don't think they agreed with the UN giving away their land. Well, I know that. I didn't call them good guys, you're putting words in my mouth or not thoroughly reading or something. Do you still not understand they were defending independence? I said they were doing it dishonorably, but the point is, they are doing it and you claim they aren't.

3) The Jewish offered the palestinian to remain in Israel, and became jewish citizens, with full rights (30% of the population of Israel are muslims, descendents of those people).

If Mexicans became so oppressed that a majority of the people from there migrated to the US outnumbering us 7-3 and took over our government, but offered me "full rights" I think I'd still be opposed. Put yourself in their shoes. You're thinking inside the box of the people who did this to them.

4) The palestinian who left, did it because the attacking countries promised them to kill all the Jewish and "paint the Mediterranean sea of Red with the dripping blood of the Jewish´ cutthroads"

What relevance does this have? I told you I didn't approve of terrorism. I mentioned much earlier that the extremists were stupid. I'm not on the side of idiot killers. Again, I'm just saying you're wrong when you say they weren't fighting for their independence.

5) The 5 countires lost the war, and, as they didn´t knew what to do with the palestinians, most of the countries took a "nice decission": killing them (Do you know that Jordania is the country in the world which has killed more Palestinians in History?)

Um, ok. Still no relevance to them fighting for independence. You're just extremist-bashing again.

6) Palestinians do not fight for freedon... As close they´re of having a free country, more suicidals come and kill 20-30 jewish. Palestinians terrorist groups are not fighting for the independence of Palestina, their foundational letters talk of "The total destruction of the infidel State of Israel".

They aren't close to having their original country back, they're close to having less than 1/3 of it. Ok, so to break this down.. They aren't fighting for independence, because they want the state that is trying to take it from them to be totally destroyed. Thanks for clarifying that for me.

[Nacho]

Also, how can you claim that Palestinians are not fighting for independence when the hegemony of the country shifts from Palestinian ownership to zionist Jewish ownership?

Yes... I shared that oppinion since someone told me years before "Notice that Yihad allways strike when a peace plan is close to be signed"

And it´s true... as better the peace conversations go, bloodier the strikes are.

That friend, a Jewish Turkey mate, made me investigate the foundational documents of Jihad, Al-Aksa, Hamás... All of them say that their final aim is to destroy the Isreaelian State.

That made me change my mind...

[DGMacphee]

Also, how can you claim that Palestinians are not fighting for independence when the hegemony of the country shifts from Palestinian ownership to zionist Jewish ownership?

Yes... I shared that oppinion since someone told me years before "Notice that Yihad allways strike when a peace plan is close to be signed"

And it´s true... as better the peace conversations go, bloodier the strikes are.

That friend, a Jewish Turkey mate, made me investigate the foundational documents of Jihad, Al-Aksa, Hamás... All of them say that their final aim is to destroy the Isreaelian State.

That made me change my mind...

Post ergo proctor hoc - After it therefore because of it.

Not always true.

I mean, it's like you're insimuating that the peace talks cause Palestinian rebels to strike.

And that's ridiculous, cause strikes happen there even without peace a peace signing.

The reasons you hear about bloody strikes during a peace signing is because the media likes to juxtapose recent strikes with peace signnings.

I've talked about this to people in the industry -- it happens all the time, and not just with the Israel-Palistine situation.

Think about this: why would the Western media give a shit about what's happening with the Israel-Palestine bloodshed if there are no peace talks?

You can only report on the bloodshed so much before people become bored with it.

It's sad, but it's true.

[shbaz]

So you're saying that they are not fighting for independence, but fighting because they hate Jews. Jews lived there pre-modern-Israel and weren't being massacred like now. Does that change your mind? It's a sort of simple view of things, but the Israelites weren't trying to create their own country with Palestinian lands then.

[Nacho]

Shbazjenkins:

"And Palestinians have the right to oppose the decision of the foreign country attempting to give away their lands.. I don't think we call New York a colony here in the US anymore you know" <---That´s what I call supporting the terrorism. But we can carry on with that argument: "Nazis had the right to attack Poland, because there was Danzig, and Prusia and bla bla bla..."


"If Mexicans became so oppressed that a majority of the people from there migrated to the US outnumbering us 7-3 and took over our government, but offered me "full rights" I think I'd still be opposed. Put yourself in their shoes. You're thinking inside the box of the people who did this to them."
No! I told that they had the possibility to remain in their lands in 1949, before all the oppresion and all the stuff... And as an example, I put that 30% of muslims Israelian population. As an example that living between Jew and muslims is possible (except for those Palestinians who left their countries expecting that foreign countries kill the Jewish)

And I can´t really response to many of the other points, because I don´t really understand you... I say to you that the Jordans are the country that more Palestinians have killed and you say that that has something to see with an independence fight?

Let me explain it to you in a short dialogue, ok?

Jordans- Hey! Palestinians, mateys, come to my country, I m going to kill the Jewish!

Palestinians: Ok!

(the war is a failure and the Palestinians can´t come back, and they remain in Jordania)

The palestinians say: Hey Jordania... what do we do now? eeehh! Arghhhhh!

Palestinian dead by a Jordan who didn´t want to keep him in his country


Do you understand it now?

[Nacho]

And YES! the matter that the palestinians left their homes in 1949 expecting to return after the Jewish massacre does care, because shows that the "good boys palestinian little angels" wanted the Jewish killed before the occupation.

It also shows that the Jewish intentions at the beggining were good, while today, the constant attack by their neighbourn countries, has turned it into a very agressive ones. The ARABS STARTED.

[shbaz]

Shbazjenkins:

That´s what I call supporting the terrorism.

I'm giving you the reason why there is terrorism, not supporting it. You keep pretending I'm in favor of it, but I'm just pointing out that they had good reason to be mad. Their anger is given out in a different way than ours.

No! I told that they had the possibility to remain in their lands in 1949, before all the oppresion and all the stuff

You totally missed my analogy, apparently.  You don't want your country to be flooded with foreigners, taken over, and then given the option to live with equal rights under the foreigners that have overthrown your government... Or do you not mind if that happens to you because you would appreciate the change that a totally different culture (and religion) might bring?

And I can´t really response to many of the other points, because I don´t really understand you... I say to you that the Jordans are the country that more Palestinians have killed and you say that that has something to see with an independence fight?

You totally didn't catch my point again.  I'm not justifying their actions.  I'm pointing out that you think that this isn't an independence fight only because of the terrorism.  Palestineans getting killed by Jordaneans has no relevance in whether or not they are fighting for their freedom from Israel.. if it does I'd love you to kindly explain it to me. The "sea of blood" crap is just their more graphic term for the same stuff Bush feeds the US. It's propaganda to get their people to unite against their enemy that has taken their lands against their will.

You're telling me I support terrorism because I'm pointing out why there is terrorism. Please re-read my last post and try to understand it better. Your opinions are jumbled and slightly mis-interpreted.  I'm only trying to clarify because most non-muslims aren't even going to attempt to put theirselves in a Palestineans shoes and imagine why they are going to be terrorists. The religious jihad stuff is just a way to gain more followers. The people behind it all are trying to get their lands back, I don't think they really feel as swayed by their religion as the fact that their country was taken from them against their will.

EDIT

Oh crap, I finish my long post and you post this?

And YES! the matter that the palestinians left their homes in 1949 expecting to return after the Jewish massacre does care, because shows that the "good boys palestinian little angels" wanted the Jewish killed before the occupation.

Or maybe they didn't want to be accidentally murdered by their allies in the ensuing war by remaining in their homes on the battlefield?  Why in the holy shit are you calling them little angels?  For the last friggin time, I'm not calling them perfect.  They're fighting for their independence with all of the means that they can, and TERRORISM IS BAD.  Did you read it that time?  Yes, I think terrorism is bad too.

It also shows that the Jewish intentions at the beggining were good, while today, the constant attack by their neighbourn countries, has turned it into a very agressive ones. The ARABS STARTED.

As good as their intentions may have been, they were FORCIBLY TAKING something from someone for NO REASON THAT THE PALISTINEANS CAUSED.  The Palestineans will only be happy when they have everything back, not some, but ALL.  The Jews don't want it all, but most of it.  That is why in 50 years this conflict is still not settled.  The Arabs didn't start it!  The Jews friggin' went there and started a new country with Palistenean lands!  That started it.  They wouldn't have fought Jews that weren't there in the first place, would they?

[makri]

If US wouldn't interfere with Palestinian conflict there had been peace for a long time.

Palestinians might not be able to fight with honourable methods, but unlike Israelis, their cause is just.

[Nacho]

Palestinians might not be able to fight with honourable methods, but unlike Israelis, their cause is just.

Yes, terminating with the Jewish race is very just Makri  

And that´s what the terrorist are pursuing.

[Nacho]

Shbazjinkens: I see so different points of view between you and me that going on would only take us to a bitter confrontation that I don´t want.

These differences are: You say that the land belong to the Palestinians... It never has, as it belonged to brits.

You say that Palestinian leaved his land because they thought that they could never reached the same citizen state as the Jewish. I am saying that the Palestinians who remained have the same state in front of the law.

The "sea of blood" stuff is not Bush´ propaganda, it was a quote said in 1949 by arab warriors, which means that was said 50 years before the Bush election...

Anyway, I see your points, and I see your analogies, but I don´t share them, so, going with this is futile because I don´t want to make a quick reply and write something that I don´t really think.

So, thanks for sharing your oppinions with me, but I´m tired of this, all the points are the same since 5 or 6 posts, so, I give in.

[shbaz]

Palestinians might not be able to fight with honourable methods, but unlike Israelis, their cause is just.

Basically, this is my point.  The Palistineans wouldn't have the goal of terminating the Jewish race if the Jewish race weren't taking their home.

You don't understand my points, because I didn't say Bush said the sea of blood stuff, I said he makes the same type of propaganda in different ways.  It is a good time to stop. This is way too long.

[TheYak]

Yes, terminating with the Jewish race is very just Makri  
And that´s what the terrorist are pursuing.

Sorry, but if I understand you correctly, you're stating that the terrorists are persuing genocide of the Jews?  This I doubt.  It seems to be a religious & territorial conflict.  If the Jews were relocated 500 miles or so away, it would be the solution Palestine was looking for.  Then again, maybe I'm wrong and the Palestinians would hunt Jews to the ends of the Earth for the sake of extermination.    


Aside from that, I think we can pick a couple points that everyone agrees upon and go from there.  1) Terrorism is a bad thing.  People who do this are naughty.   2) There is no justification for killing civilians, either by military force or that of terrorism.  Even if war is assumed to be justified, I don't think anyone here advocates the targeting of civilians.    Unless there's someone who disagrees with those 2 points, I don't think there's any use in arguing them further.