"AGS Games in production" forbidden for criticism?!

[Minimi]

I have this problem with the In Production thread. It seems like, it's kinda forbidden to give constructive criticism about games. I mean, like I want to say that a game sucks... but instead of that, I'll say "good effort, good luck one, keep up the good work", or something similiar.

So what I mean is, that it feels like there is some kind of mood like "Don't get to harsh on a game...because the creator is doing so much his/her best".

I think that just sucks. If I'm trying really hard making a game, and I come up with a lame story, stupid graphics with standard photoshop layers, gradients and lame animations.... and in reply to that, everyone tells me it's great im working on the game, and they are looking forward to it.... then I'm working my butt of, though actually being in a big glimps, not realizing, my audience won't even take effort to download/play it.

In short terms, I'd like to ask you to lighten up abit, and if I'm wrong here, tell me also. I just think that's it's good to be honest to eachother, because compliments are only to get yourself a good feeling, but critics are really handy for a creator.

Well... until I got some good answer, I'll continue for most part (unless where I really can't bear the view), wandering around without giving any comment.

[AGA]

Bear in mind Webspider isn't a moderator. The only people you should listen to is us moderators - " 3. If you're not a moderator, don't pretend to be one. If a thread needs to be moved or locked, the moderators will deal with it."

Just keep posting how you want to post, as long as any criticism you give is constructive, and ignore anyone who says otherwise...

[Mr Jake]

are you referring to WebSpiders reply to you?

Its fine for you to critic the games, otherwise there wouldnt be a point to posting in the GiP forum.

[Losttraveler unlog]

Call me a newb and what not, but I like the look of that remake...

[Ghormak]

There's a point to it other than getting comments.

Generating hype.

It's up to the reader of the threads if they want to post comments or not, and I'd personally like it if people were honest when commenting on the games.

[Darth Mandarb]

I need those types of constructive critisism when I'm working on something.

It's what makes me work better/harder on whatever it is.

So I say stick with it.Ã,  Now, granted, the Games in Production boardÃ,  isn't the Critics Lounge so you maybe shouldn't always be giving paint-overs and critiques ... but certainly you should offer your opinion.

I say don't sweat it.Ã,  If the authors [of the games] don't want that kind of critisism they shouldn't announce the game until they're done with it and not going to change anything about it.

[deadsuperhero]

Gee, it sure sucks when people criticize me.

[Mr Jake]

dont post in forums which are open to critisism if you dont like it.

[deadsuperhero]

Well, if people are talking about me, that's my concern.

[Andail]

Webspider, what are you getting at, and who are you being annoyed with?
Cause you seem a bit upset for no reason

[Ozwalled]

Well, I think that if you're going to be offering criticism there, try your best to have it be constructive, and it ought to be fine. Just as long as you relate what you don't like, maybe why you don't like it and a suggestion that you feel would be an improvement, I'd guess that any mature poster could accept that.

[Darth Mandarb]

Well, I think that if you're going to be offering criticism there, try your best to have it be constructive, and it ought to be fine. Just as long as you relate what you don't like, maybe why you don't like it and a suggestion that you feel would be an improvement, I'd guess that any mature poster could accept that.

The problem is that a lot of the new developers are of the younger teenage demographic.Ã,  And these younger members might think it's meant as an insult rather than constructive.Ã,  I think we should still offer it though (and calm any fires it might start) and, as you mentioned, just back up what is said with reasons.

Gee, it sure sucks when people criticize me.

You need to calm down.Ã,  Minimi was posting this because he was concerned about something that happened to him, not you.Ã,  You happened to be the one who told him to 'lay off' (or something to that effect) when he posted his comments in that thread in the GiP board.Ã,  I didn't get the impression anybody was criticising you (I don't think Hotspots remarks were intended for you.)Ã,  Just relax and enjoy this new hobby!Ã,  All will be well

[ghostface]

Well, I think that if you're going to be offering criticism there, try your best to have it be constructive, and it ought to be fine. Just as long as you relate what you don't like, maybe why you don't like it and a suggestion that you feel would be an improvement, I'd guess that any mature poster could accept that.

The problem is that a lot of the new developers are of the younger teenage demographic.Ã,  And these younger members might think it's meant as an insult rather than constructive.Ã,  I think we should still offer it though (and calm any fires it might start) and, as you mentioned, just back up what is said with reasons.

I agree with having the criticism constructive because if you don't hear helpful opinions, you may feel that no one will care if you spend all this time into this game.

There's a point to it other than getting comments.

Generating hype.

It's up to the reader of the threads if they want to post comments or not, and I'd personally like it if people were honest when commenting on the games.

Oh, how very true.

I have this problem with the In Production thread. It seems like, it's kinda forbidden to give constructive criticism about games. I mean, like I want to say that a game sucks... but instead of that, I'll say "good effort, good luck one, keep up the good work", or something similiar.

So what I mean is, that it feels like there is some kind of mood like "Don't get to harsh on a game...because the creator is doing so much his/her best".

I have had this on my mind forever, minimi...thank you. I have not seen a comment on the GiP forum stating "this game looks bad, man, you should stop!" That must mean that we are all---kind magical folk only out to give a hand to the needy. If I am doing a game and don't know if I want to continue, I don't want to hear the same thing over and over...maybe I want to hear that I can quit the project and be free! Work on another game!
I'm gonna get pounded for this.Ã,  Ã, 

[Evil]

The problem is that a lot of the new developers are of the younger teenage demographic.Ã,  And these younger members might think it's meant as an insult rather than constructive.Ã,  I think we should still offer it though (and calm any fires it might start) and, as you mentioned, just back up what is said with reasons.

Thats the thing. I dont think people realize what constructive critism looks like. Things like "This part is stupid", "I dont like this", and even "Change so and so" are all bad comments.

They may be true, but some people get angry about these, even people we know well and think they wont be if we say it anyway.

Comments like "This part was good, and so was this other part, but I think it would be a lot better if it was like the first part." Thats a good comment even if it doesnt look that way. It may not be as detailed as some may think is needed, but it doesnt need to be.

"This part is really good and looks like you put a lot of effort into it. This other part however doesnt look like you put the same amount of effort into it and would look a lot better if you did."

Things like "I hate this, and I'll tell you why" are ok to an extent. I could bare this type of remark and respect it, but newbies I dont think would understand.

I agree that sometimes (Ok, most of the time) I don't have enough time to sit down and type out a long "nice" responce, but I know how I would wirite one. So even if you write fast comments like myself, think about what you are saying, if you are being clear, and all around helpful.

And if it comes down to it, please use a silly smilie to bring across a joking comment.


Oh yeah, I hate you all, but I'll tell you why...

(See how well that worked? )

[Alynn]

Oddly enough I see this kind of thing all the time... and the general thing is... its ALWAYS the younger people that have problems with it... my kid is no different (although she is only 6)...

from the other point of view though...

Imagine putting you heart and soul into something... looking at it... revising it... revising it again... spending hours upon hours until you think it's perfect... and you want to put up something you are so proud of... just so someone to say,

"Yeah it's good, but if you change this and this and this, it will be better." In a way you told this person "No matter how much time and energy you put into this, it's not good enough for me." Even though you may not have meant it that way...

Not all of us have inate graphical abilities... not all of us have inate abilities to write a good story, dialog, plot, or anything... so this is my idea...

1) If you post here expect to be critiqued... but also understand that these critiques are not to put you down, they are there to try to help you improve on your style. If you do not like these critiques do not post. Bottom line, if you can't let it roll off your back like water off a duck... then just save everyone the trouble...

2) Respect others... remember that some of them worked long and hard... even if you think their work is uber bad... they may have spent DAYS to get it looking THAT good... we aren't all diVinci... some of us don't have the drawing talent past stickmen, and even those are of dubious style. And please make sure it is CONSTRUCTIVE... Telling someone that their pic looks like it was drawn by a right handed chimp using its left foot... well you get the point...


So in the end... Post and expect critiques, critique, but remember we don't all have uber skill levels in artwork...

And I guess that's it

[Sylpher]

Games in production forum..

A place to brag and showcase what you have coming out.


There is a place people go if they want criticism about a story or image or character or even an entire game they are working on. (Give you three gueses which forum that is). If the games in production forum is open for criticism there is no reason to have both forums.

It is fine to say what you like and dislike about a game but you don't need to do an 18 point inspection or anything..

[Pumaman]

It's really all down to common sense. As Evil says, there's no point in posting "This game sucks" -- that's no help to anybody and will just offend.

However, posting "I'm not too sure about this, because of X and Y; but I do think that the Z part has potential" is more likely to actually be useful to the developer.

And some people will always take offence far too easily. Perhaps the solution is to make the minimum age 16 a mandatory requirement to post here, but I don't want to do that because age does not reflect maturity that well.

[shbaz]

Perhaps the solution is to make the minimum age 16 a mandatory requirement to post here, but I don't want to do that because age does not reflect maturity that well.

I hope you don't, because the latter is so true.

Plus it's very easy to lie anyway.

[Snake]

Sylpher said it perfect. In fact, he said it so well, here it is again:

Games in production forum..

A place to brag and showcase what you have coming out.


There is a place people go if they want criticism about a story or image or character or even an entire game they are working on. (Give you three gueses which forum that is). If the games in production forum is open for criticism there is no reason to have both forums.

It is fine to say what you like and dislike about a game but you don't need to do an 18 point inspection or anything..

Also this:

There's a point to it other than getting comments.

Generating hype.

EXACTLY. That's why this forum was created to begin with - To show everyone what you've got on the stove. Think of the game's thread as a movie poster or a preview of an upcoming game in a magezine.


--Snake

[Squinky]

Well, I'd say if you feel the game creator needs critic that much, try a private message asking him first if he'd be interested in your help. Then once he replys you can start explaining your point of view.

I really do think that the critics lounge is the best place for open critiqing though. Seems like  once someone points out a bad aspect of a gip thread everyone else jumps on too. I hate to see this happen to someone....

[Andail]

I don't agree with Snake and Sylpher...if it's supposed to work as a movie poster, i.e only to generate hype, why do we need a forum at all? A forum is a place where people are intended to reply and discuss things.

Discussions and critique is what brings the forum from some sort of littered bulletin board to a place where improvement and reconsideration can occur.

Hyping for me is a very negative word.

[Minimi]

Now THAT, Andail, is exactly what I mean! I can say amen to that! No hyping, but discussing. It's just stupid that other people are so defensive on critics...

[ghostface]

Hyping for me is a very negative word.

Ok...you hit the hammer on the nail...w/e...I think that if a person hypes about their game 5 months before it is ready to come out and everyone loves the screenies and "can't wait" and then the programmer's computer crashes or he decides not to do the game, everyone might think that he won't complete a game or that he doesn't want to. There would be to much pressure and you would feel rushed to distribute the game to the people. However if the programmer announced their game a few days before they were sure they were done...they would have done a good, non-rushed job. So yes, hyping is negative to me also, but then again...I don't want to lose this forum...you know?   

[DGMacphee]

EXACTLY. That's why this forum was created to begin with - To show everyone what you've got on the stove. Think of the game's thread as a movie poster or a preview of an upcoming game in a magezine.

Actually, the whole reason (as far as I can remember) why the Games In Production forum was created was to separate the demos from the full games in the previously titled "Announcement Forum".

People were just sick of having to wade through demos to find full games, so they got separated (The games and demos, not the people). It didn't really have anything to do with hype or criticism or any of the other reasons people have specified in this thread, although such reasons are good reasons to have the forum too.

Now here's my take on things:

First, ask yourself the purpose of the forum? As I said, it was to seperate demos and full games. So, what is a demo? A demo is used to show progress. Ergo, the games in production's main function is to show thes progress of games. This now not only includes demos, but screenshots, animations, sprites, music, etc, etc.

But doesn't the Critic's Lounge also do that, some have asked?

Yes. It does. Except the Critic's Lounge wasn't designed for demonstrating progress of a game. It was mainly set up to gain feedback on individual talents, like art and music.

However, both forums were designed with the principle of improvement in mind. The critic's lounge was designed to help others gain feedback for improving their individual talents. The Games in Production was to demonstrate the progress and improvements of a full game.

Now, I feel criticism is important for developing a talent. I am reminded of a story of a student dancer who auditioned for a big musical company. Her audition started, but within five minutes the musical direction stopped her performance and told her she didn't have what it took to be a dancer. Years passed. She married, had kids, and worked in a book-keeping job during this time. But one day she met that same musical director in the street. She stopped him and asked if he remembered her. "I do," he replied. She then asked what was it that made him decide she didn't have what it took to be a dancer. She replied, "If someone tells you within five minutes that you don't have what it takes, and you quit, then you definately don't have what it takes to be a dancer."

Lovely little story! So, what's my point?

Well, if one or two people offensively criticise your game, and you give up instead of developing it further, then the game wasn't meant to be made. And I'm sure that for every one or two of those cruel bastards ( ) there are about ten people willing to give decent constructive criticising in hope of helping someone improving their game. To people who feel that we shouldn't criticise games in the production forum at all, I say if we do then there is no chance for progress or improvement. After all, people are releasing demos and screenshots for a game other people are going to play, so they might as well gain some decent feedback from such people. Otherwise, don't post screenshots or any demos. Finish your enitre game and then post it. But either way you do it, there will be criticism.

This entire forum represents a hive for advice for improvement, whether it's personal/non-adventure game (AGS General), beginner's steps (Beginner's Forum), theory (Adventure Game Discussion), individual talent (Critics Lounge), game development (Games in Production), and Final Product (Completed Games). CJ even has the Technical Forum where people give him criticial opinion on the latest release of AGS.

But if you stop the criticism in one area, you shut down improvement in an important step in the game development process. I think as long as people remember that this whole community is devoted to making each adventure game release better than the last one, then criticism is hunky-dory.

And with that, I rest my case.

"You rest your case??"

Oh, sorry. Case closed!

[Snake]

The GiP forum is for Presentation on a project, not critique.

We seem to be flowing off of topic a bit. Now we are discussing any criticisms AT ALL, and that's not what the main issue is here. The problem was why can't the creator of that game's promo thread ask for opinions and critique?
Because that is why there is a critics lounge. When someone posts about their upcoming game, which should be underway - not just an idea or just starting, they are advertising. Any comments by the readers are welcome, but like I just said, if the creator wants a critique about anything dealing with their game, they must do it in the critics lounge.

About the word "Hype". Now that you mention it, yeah, it stinks. I think of not just a movie coming out, but all the toys and lunch boxes and all that crap that goes with it. Personally, I'd rather not do that myself, and what I mean is beef it up and make it out to be 3 times as better than what it actually is or is going to be. All people need to do is show some screens of what the game looks like and give some information. This way they know what the game is about and they know what it's going to look like. From here it's up to them whether they think it'll be good or not.


--Snake

[Ghormak]

You're right about hype. I'm sorry, I should have used a more neutral word, like "interest" or "attention".

[edmundito]

Hype: Run Hot is coming soon, guys! SERIOUSLY.!!!! Only 3 more decades. 

I say that the games in production is not only to tell people what you're up to, but also to take comments, questions, and criticism. There is a certain degree of hype, but that's just part of the fun. You can always get new ideas from what people ask or say in the replies, unless they say "Uh, this game sux0rs! Don't make it cuz it's a remake and you're not qualified enough to make one."

Edit: What happened to the game's topic in the GIP forum? I can't find it!

[lightman]

I think Macphee is on the right track.

Does anyone post full/partial (demo) games in the Critics' Lounge? Or even screenshots from a game in production? From what I've seen, people post individual pieces of art -  backgrounds, animation, music, etc. - to get ideas on how to improve it. That seems reasonable.

Why post something in "games in production"? If it's only for announcing a new game, then there's no point to use the forum format because nobody should be posting replies.

[Sylpher]

Nay did I say you cannot comment in a positive or negative spectrum about a game in the 'Games in Production' forum. As you pointed out Andail and as I pointed out as well and as I think we will point out again if the forum is there for open critique there is no reason for it to exist.. The Critics forum does a fine enough job.

Forcing people to showcase a demo in the Games in Production forum may be a step in a direction. Not too sure if it is a good one.

(Just because I mean look at how many games there are [in the Games in Production forum].. might as well force SOME content because it has become a pretty mean pile of half ideas.. and random artwork.)

[Darth Mandarb]

I think comments, critiques, and critisisms are fine in the GiP if they are about game mechanics, GUI functionality, bugs, errors, fixes, etc.

Comments about the artwork, animations, and sounds aren't really appropriate.Ã,  If the game-maker wants C&C about that stuff they should post in the CL.

I've kind of been wondering about something else lately ...

We've been getting (ocassionally) a post in the GiP about little demos.Ã,  Not necessarily something that'll be made into a game.Ã,  I think those don't belong in the GiP either.Ã,  For instance, I recently moved SilverWizard's battle system into the CL because it's not really a game in production ... just something he wanted people to check out.Ã,  Seemed (to me) more appropriate in the CL than the GiP.

Does that make sense to people?

[Snake]

NetMonkey, you mean this one? glorp

Darth: Sounds perfectly logical to me. I don't remember seeing the thread myself, but if it isn't a game, it shouldn't be there anyway Heh, wasn't there an RPG engine there before too?

I agree with the mechanics idea. That makes sence especially if you've released a demo.

What's this going to turn into, anyway? A big poll on how many people want to eliminate the GiP forum? Come on guys It's simple, your upcoming game promotion goes in the GiP forum. Your requests for help/critiques with art, music, story and anything else goes in the critics lounge.


--Snake

[edmundito]

No, I mean the post about SQII that started this whole mess.

[DG from Uni]

Forcing people to showcase a demo in the Games in Production forum may be a step in a direction. Not too sure if it is a good one.

I think it's a good one. I think the Games in Production forums should function more as a "Demos Forum", since that was the original purpose of setting up the forum. Besides, I'd prefer to find demos to play, as opposed to sifting through posts with sweet-FA in them.

I figure if people want to promote their games with screenshots and demo, they can set up a website until a demo is ready. A sort of "Until we see a demo, we don't want hear about it" policy.

I also am in favour of this idea because it makes finding demos easier for the AGS Awards. 

[Gilbert]

Hehe because I'm a person who won't download unfinished game demos I won't make one either, they makes me never ever have to start anything here .

Well actually I won't like to post screenshots, info., etc. either, so I'll just post directly in the complete games forum when my games are (ever) finished!

[AGA]

People should edit the title of their thread with 'demo now available' or 'full game now released' or something similar, to make DG's job easier...

[DGMacphee]

They should, but they're a bunch of slack dole-bludgers!

[lightman]

Darth: Yes, that makes perfect sense.

[Snake]

I figure if people want to promote their games with screenshots and demo, they can set up a website until a demo is ready. A sort of "Until we see a demo, we don't want hear about it" policy.

Tis a good idea, but some people would rather release the game in it's entiredy without releasing a demo first, but still would like to let people know about it right off hand. This forum's a good place for that, even if the thread is just a link to their website. Since you can do a lot more with HTML than you can with one post (a lot more information and details and what not).

slack dole-bludgers

hardily hoodily badeedily d00!


--Snake

[Pumaman]

If we require a demo it'll only lead to people producing crappy 1-room "demo" games in order to qualify, so I don't really think it would work.

If we tell people that criticism is not allowed in the GiP forum, we'll end up with everyone posting their game in the Critics, which would make something of a mess.

I think the way it works at the moment is fine, so long as the forum rules are strictly enforced and criticism is constructive.

[Minimi]

so CJ, what you say, is that I can't comment on an obvious n00b game, with lousy graphics and 2000planned rooms, that it just plainly stinks?

Should I lie about it, and tell him/her that it just gonna be a great game? Is that like for the "greater good"?

I think we should make the GiP thread only post-enabled for members longer than 3 months or something. That way you don't get these things...(figuring n00bs disappear at a 3 months range)...

aah well...maybe im heading too far, as there are kids of 11 years trying to make their first game. I just get kinda frustrated seeing people post their games when they have only a plain story and 2 or 3 rooms, mostly not even scripted.

Bunch of "PotatoMcFlurry's"....aarghh...

[DGMacphee]

so CJ, what you say, is that I can't comment on an obvious n00b game, with lousy graphics and 2000planned rooms, that it just plainly stinks?

Actually, what CJ said was...

so long as... criticism is constructive.

I think you need to say a little more than "your game plainly stinks". Perhaps some advice on how to make it better?

[Snake]

Can I be frank?

Try this: Don't say shit. If you have nothing but negetive crap, shut the hell up, you don't need to post at all.

Not everyone's going to like everyone's game, it's all about personal preference.


--Frank