One reason why I hate this country...

[Miez]

This is a boring spiral... It's a bit annoying to see the same old stuff in every thread with the world "USA" in it, no matter if the topic really is about taxes, vaccines, MTV or bright advertisements. Please, do stop.

Why don' t we make a sticky topic? It could start with "The classical 20 anti american arguments" ("America is the capitalist-zionist-imperialist entity, blah, blah...").

Then might come the 20 sentences that the "God bless USA" guys use to reply with (Something quite fscist, like "We saved your ass in Normandie, fucking retarded Europeans!") or something in that direction...

Then a bit that the "Cool americans" use to mention ("We are not Bush, my dad fought against the invassion of Vietnam blah, blah...")

Then the classical reply the most anti-americans die hard people use to say ("But you choose Bush, therefore you all are idiots")

Then we close the topic, and we go on with something NEW.

Thanks.

Yes please!

[Becky]

I don't think the Suez Crisis is an example of the US using it's military to ensure the wellbeing of it's citizens.  It wasn't really directly involved with it (Britain, France and Israel were), and can only really be used as an example of looking after oil interests.  Though the Eisenhower Doctrine sprang from this event (any country facing communist threat can rely on US support) it isn't really a good example.

Still, I can't really see how Vietnam, Afghanistan or Iraq have ensured the wellbeing and freedom of American citizens.  Would anyone like to expand on this?

One reason why I hate the so-called 'Great' Britannia, because they let anyone in. Even vicious bombers.

And that is an incredibly ignorant thing to say.

[Snarky]

Ehm - could be me, but weren't the 20 (alleged) Twin Towers terrraaarrrists American citizens?

No, they bloody well weren't! And the "(alleged)" is pretty pointless, as there is no serious doubt as to which passengers were responsible.

I can't tell you how pissed off I get when people propagate myths, misconceptions and conspiracy theories without even bothering to look up the simplest facts.

[Becky]

Ehm - could be me, but weren't the 20 (alleged) Twin Towers terrraaarrrists American citizens?

Actually I believe you're probably thinking of the July 7th bombings of London, where the bombers were indeed British Citizens. 

[Disco]

Still, I can't really see how Vietnam, Afghanistan or Iraq have ensured the wellbeing and freedom of American citizens.  Would anyone like to expand on this?

This is something I try to be mindful of when exposed to whatever propaganda I hear surrounding the United States' various military projects. A popular phrase is "support our troops, they provide the freedom you enjoy everyday". That may have been true in earlier wars, but I believe at least right now it isn't something in any amount of jeopardy.  Based on my day to day dealings with people who feel otherwise, I can only assume it is something we are trained to think, that our freedom is in constant danger of being squashed by far-flung enemies.

A former co-worker of mine is a perfect example of this behaviour. One day there was a notice on the bulletin board for a going away party for an employee who was going back into military service, and was shipping out to a base in Turkey. The co-worker in in question decided to show her patriotism by writing "He is going away to defend our country's freedom!!!! " beside the gathering details in big swirly, curly handwriting. I was quite close to asking her on specifics, about how she thought him going to Turkey would in any way be defending our freedom, but chose not to out of respect of the man who was leaving, as I really am grateful for what he is up to.

This was not my first run-in with her odd expressions of patriotism. A full year prior I had just come back from my trip to Greece and was telling her about the lack of variety of beer in village we stayed in, most shops having two, sometimes three or four choices, to which she said "Of course!!! If the Greeks aren't going help us in Iraq, we aren't going to distribute our beer there!!"

EDIT- erm, accidentally posted before I finished working on it

[Helm]

haha oh man that quote about Greek beer is great.

Thanks for sharing, Disco. I'm still looking forward to a reply by someone who thinks those wars are somehow promoting the freedom of the american people, though.

[Miez]

Ehm - could be me, but weren't the 20 (alleged) Twin Towers terrraaarrrists American citizens?

No, they bloody well weren't! And the "(alleged)" is pretty pointless, as there is no serious doubt as to which passengers were responsible.

I can't tell you how pissed off I get when people propagate myths, misconceptions and conspiracy theories without even bothering to look up the simplest facts.

Whoa, keep your pants on! I was wrong, and indeed thinking of the London bombers (who WERE British citizens). My bad - sorry.
By the way - the "alleged" is a matter of opinion. You have yours, I have mine.

[Alynn]

To be honest, we are more of a global police force now than a military force like we were back in the day. More protecting the interests of the country, or stopping genocide (Kosovo), or taking bad men out of power, or whatever moral high ground the current Commander and Chief wishes to put us on. Right now we seem to be protecting the interests of the US.

However, we do defend American freedoms by just being there. Our military force is in basically a passive mode. Think of it like a locked security door. Most people would just walk on by. Some may even try the handle, find it's locked, and then walk by. But like any locked door, it only really keeps honest people honest. Anyone that really wants to do us harm will try to bust in. When they do, that's when they will find the security system (which constitutes a million men an women holding M-16A2 rifles). So we protect just by being there.

Do I think that the Iraq war is helping American Freedom? Not yet. But I believe it's a step in trying to remove some Anti-Americanism, and Anti-Western sentiment in that area. More of an attempt really. Either way, trying to change that opinion (no I don't mean taking Saddam out of power, I mean winning the hearts and minds of the people, and we are trying, you don't hear about it alot on the news, but humanitarian efforts go on day by day by day there) does protect the country by slowing, or curbing a potential bed of individuals that could wish to do us harm in the future. Could Iran be next? Possibly, North Korea, possibly. I try not to think about what foreign country I may have to spend in combat in again, I like being home with my family.

Many people hate the US Military. Even those within US borders (I'm sure that happens in other countries too, I'm not trying to say that the US is the only place it happens). However, I'd just like to say, never hate your military. We don't decide on our own to go anywhere, all we choose (in the US) is to join or not to join. After that, it's on the government from there.

So please, never hate the troop, we are doing out jobs, fighting so you don't have to. If we (and I mean all militaries that are there to keep their respective countries safe, even if there isn't an immediate threat) weren't there to fight on your behalf, then what happens when a few thousand people show up on your doorsteps with weapons demanding your surrender?

Sorry, I have no issues when people dislike government decisions, I like it in fact that people have, and are allowed to have such thoughts and ideas, but it really bothers me when people blame some 18 year old kid, that maybe just wanted to do something more with his life than his home town situation would allow, for the Iraq war. He didn't make that decision, don't blame him.

[SSH]

*cough* Helm:

explain to me how the US military has after its participation in world war II, ensured the freedom and wellbeing of americans with their military action outside of america (which is where it occurs)

honest question, I'd really like to get an answer

Well, I'd suggest that the naval blockade of Cuba probably was one example. Also: Berlin airlift, evacuation of US citizens from Dominican Republic, Cambodia, Egypt (during Suez crisis), Cyprus, etc.

[TheYak]

Do I think that the Iraq war is helping American Freedom? Not yet. But I believe it's a step in trying to remove some Anti-Americanism, and Anti-Western sentiment in that area.

I wish I could believe that this were actually the case.  No amount of ignorance or optimism I can summon will sway my opinion in this matter.  We were guided there under several false pretenses.  If there is a useful humanitarian effort, it is merely consequential and due in large part to the men and women in uniform and not those above them. 

We've stepped into the country oblivious to the social and political issues of the reason, with our leadership making decisions without even being aware that the Iraqi people weren't all "the same kind o' Muslim".  We're like an uninformed adult stepping into a dispute among neighborhood kids without knowing their individual personalities and history.  Even if we keep the peace by promoting one group over another or getting them to shake hands, the rest of the kids aren't likely to turn away satisfied.

[SSH]

We're like an uninformed adult stepping into a dispute among neighborhood kids without knowing their individual personalities and history.  Even if we keep the peace by promoting one group over another or getting them to shake hands, the rest of the kids aren't likely to turn away satisfied.

So Muslims are like kids and the USA like adults... and then Americans wonder why they are percieved as arrogant!

[Nacho]

Seeing how a significative amount of people in Iraq has devoted their lives to put bombs in markets, I would say that, indeed, there is a high percentage of iraquians with a (cruel) childish attitude.

[SSH]

Seeing how a significative amount of people in Iraq has devoted their lives to put bombs in markets, I would say that, indeed, there is a high percentage of iraquians with a (cruel) childish attitude.

As far as I can tell, there have been about 500 suicide bombers in Iraq since the invasion. Iraq's population is about 28 million. That is 0.002%, not "a high percentage", nor a "significant amout". The highest percentage I have seen is: "According to a recent poll, 47% of the Iraqi population approve of the attacks on Coalition forces, but not of attacks on Iraqi security forces, or civilians"

[Nikolas]

SSH,

Thing is that, while your math are correct and indeed a 0.002% is not a high percentage, you do need to compair it with a different country... for example the UK. Here in the UK there's been 2 bombings in all? For the past 5-6 years, unless mistaken. But certainly not 500. And the population is about the same. That does give an idea...

But then again I do agree certainly that I hate the notion USA=adults the rest of the world=children/todlers... (On the other hand being the (yet) only super power in the world does come with these "responsibilities").

Of course no one can claim that the US troops attacking Iraq, or Afganistan, or Vietnam, or... are directly saving the US freedom, but since Communism was (and still is) concidered a high threat (as well as chemicals and nuclear arsenal), it is safe to say that attacking a communist nation, or one that (supposedly) has nuclear weapons, or chemical, or whatever does make the world a safer place. (I'm playing the devils advocate here). Thing is, of course, that in most cases there were no threats found, no weapons found, and communism fell either way without the aid of the USA (more or less :-/), not to mention that V. is not a better place as it appears...

[EagerMind]

Still, I can't really see how Vietnam, Afghanistan or Iraq have ensured the wellbeing and freedom of American citizens.  Would anyone like to expand on this?

Vietnam was part of a larger policy of containment, the goal of which was to stop the spread of communism. As World War II ended, ideological differences between the USA and the USSR along with the Soviet occupation of Eastern Europe led to the development of the domino theory, which basically said that if communism was left unchecked, it would spread throughout the whole world. As a result, wherever communism seemed to be on the rise, the US would basically support the opposing side. If you really want to put it in it's proper context and feel like reading more, Wikipedia has a pretty good article on the Cold War.

The Taliban government that ruled Afghanistan harbored, supported, and protected the Al-Qaeda organization. In addition to 9/11, Al-Qaeda is also suspected of having planned and carried out numerous other terrorist attacks, so hopefully it's clear why the US wanted them destroyed. The two groups had a close relationship, so destroying one basically meant destroying both.

Iraq was alleged to have WMD and links to Al-Qaeda. Of course, we all know how those claims turned out ....

These are the reasonings behind these events. Whether or not you agree with them is another matter. I would caution that it's pretty easy for us to sit here today with the benefit of hindsight and pass judgement on these events. Most decisions are evaluated simply by whether or not they resulted in success or failure, but I don't think this is the whole story. To really appreciate everything that goes into a decision and determine whether or not it was justified, I think you need to put yourself in the role of the decision-makers and examine why they made these decisions in the first place and why they ended up succeeding or failing. There are lots of lessons to be learned in doing this, one of them being that not everything is as simple and clear-cut as we'd like it to be.

We're like an uninformed adult stepping into a dispute among neighborhood kids without knowing their individual personalities and history.

So Muslims are like kids and the USA like adults... and then Americans wonder why they are percieved as arrogant!

I don't think that was the point she was trying to make, but whatever.

[Nacho]

Seeing how a significative amount of people in Iraq has devoted their lives to put bombs in markets, I would say that, indeed, there is a high percentage of iraquians with a (cruel) childish attitude.

As far as I can tell, there have been about 500 suicide bombers in Iraq since the invasion. Iraq's population is about 28 million. That is 0.002%, not "a high percentage", nor a "significant amout". The highest percentage I have seen is: "According to a recent poll, 47% of the Iraqi population approve of the attacks on Coalition forces, but not of attacks on Iraqi security forces, or civilians"

Now, count how many americans decided to invade Iraq, and divide it by the population of the USA.

[Becky]

EagerMind, funnily enough I do actually know about the Cold War and the domino theory etc (I am studying modern history and politics at university right now ), and yes, I can see what the reasonings are.  But those reasonings do not, to me, demonstrate that the foreign policy decisions of the United States have ensured the freedom of US citizens - especially when the surrounding policies of intelligence surrounding the "War on Terror" have demonstratably stripped away the civil freedoms of US citizens to an almost unconstitutional degree.

[SSH]

Now, count how many americans decided to invade Iraq, and divide it by the population of the USA.

What percentage of the vote did Bush get in 2004?

We're like an uninformed adult stepping into a dispute among neighborhood kids without knowing their individual personalities and history.

So Muslims are like kids and the USA like adults... and then Americans wonder why they are percieved as arrogant!

I don't think that was the point she was trying to make, but whatever.

I never said it was. It's casually making the entire middle east out to be a bunch of children that is so annoying.

[Nacho]

Now, count how many americans decided to invade Iraq, and divide it by the population of the USA.

What percentage of the vote did Bush get in 2004?

So... we move the line, and accept the people "who agrees with..." in the same level of criminality as the responsible?

Ok... What percentage of Iraqians support insurgency killing people?

[SSH]

Now, count how many americans decided to invade Iraq, and divide it by the population of the USA.

What percentage of the vote did Bush get in 2004?

So... we move the line, and accept the people "who agrees with..." in the same level of criminality as the responsible?

You asked: "how many americans decided to invade"... well, ultimately 1: George W. Bush. Which is obviously a pointless question as it simply reflects command structure rather than any morality. I'm not sure what your point is.

Ok... What percentage of Iraqians support insurgency killing people?

As I said, 47% support anti-coalition violence. Presumably less than that support the violence against Iraqi civilians. So a majority are against any violence. And yet you brand them all kids.

Is it OK if I brand all Madridenos as children because ETA blew up Madrid airport and Al Queda blew up a railway station? What about the anti-fascist resistance in Spain and France in the 1930s and 40s?