The RoN Problem--How do we solve it???

[Dave Gilbert]

I've been thinking alot about this, and I've come to some conclusions.  The more I think about it, the more I think RoN was a product of its time. 

If you look at the AGS games from 2001-2003 you won't see a lot (some, but not a lot) with beautiful graphics or excellent coding.  Heck, RoN got started at a time when "Rob Blanc" and "Larry Vales" were considered top of the line.

So, the fact that RoN games were a bit unpolished, or short, or unfocused wasn't a problem for most people, since almost EVERY game released had these problems. 

2003 was the last year that RoN was really active.  By "active" I'm talking 1-2 games released every month. 

Since then, RoN has been fairly dead.  Also since then, the bar for AGS games has been raised.  People expect better.   If I released "Postman" or "Purity" now, the reaction would be totally different.

The problem with RoN isn't the inconsistancy of the world or the inconsistancy of the artwork.  It's the inconsistancy of the public's taste.

[Valentine]

My biggest problem with RoN whenever I come across it is that there's just too much. I would have loved to add to it; but back when it was smaller and I could actually make a recognisable contribution. Now, theres so much stuff it I just think anything added would just get drowned by everything else.

That being said, I love the RoN concept. Restarting it is, I guess an option, but it just seems people would be retreading old ground. The varying graphic quality is, I think, one of RoN's attractive qualities - it adds a definate charm in my opinion.

One thing I really think should be done is some sort of quality control on RoN though. I tried to start playing through the games, but too often came across games that were not all that good in my opinion. Maybe two sections of games; one for community-recognised 'official' games, and another for non-official games? Too beaurocratic maybe?

Not sure I can think of a possible solution, just thought I'd offer my opinions. 

[DeviantGent]

A RON wiki complete with character bios, individual and arc-based episode guides, and general trivia/design notes seems like the best way to go about introducing the series' background for those interested in starting their games.

Hell, I'd love to add to something like that. It's not something I'd be able to do single handedly though. Dave? RI? Rui?

[blueskirt]

Dave: You summarized very well some of my opinions regarding RON's lack of polished graphics and today's standards.

Food for thought - RON is dying or dead, and Maniac Mansion Mania is apparently thriving. Bigger comunity? More restricted universe? Characters that people actually know? Discuss, if you will. Shame that it's such a restricted community, what with being german-speaking-only and all.

There are several reasons for that:
Unlike RON, it hasn't been around for 6 years yet.
It's a totally new playground to experiment with for the authors.
The backgrounds and animations are more polished and are somewhat closer to today's indies standards compared to RON's graphics (making it easier to break into the mainstream and attract new fans).
It's based on a known and popular cult franchize rather than an unknown, original one.
Lastly LucasArts was very popular among german speaking adventurers (much more than Sierra) and there is a considerable amount of LucasArts or Scumm fangames projects in that language on the internet.

A few more questions worth asking:
Is there people still interested in making or playing more RON games?
Has RON and the old RON games still their place in 2007, taking into account today's indies standards?
Is there people interested in the idea of having new RON-like projects?
Would it be better to attempt reviving RON or would it be better to simply restart with a new RON-like project?

Personally I somewhat missed the RON boat. I played a few games when I discovered about AGS and the idea of having one big and interesting universe to play around always fascinated me, but then I discovered there had already 40 games released so far and it kinda scared me off. Then the Maniac Mansion Mania boat came but the english translations never did. I also remember Knightbridge Chronicles that looked insanely interesting but was never completed. A couple years later a friend tried to convince me to give RON a second try but since then the number of game had passed from 40 to 65 and I declined the offer. I am however still waiting for the next boat.

[Valentine]

I played a few games when I discovered about AGS and the idea of having one big and interesting universe to play around always fascinated me, but then I discovered there had already 40 games released so far and it kinda scared me off.

My experience exactly, and my major problem with RoN.

[Radiant]

Is there people interested in the idea of having new RON-like projects?

Considering this thread and what's discussed here, I think it would be nice to have a "fresh" RONlike project, probably in a different genre. This would allow people to start small without having to worry about the existing 50+ characters and locations and so forth. It would seem to me that a "dynamic universe" simply loses its charm to new people once it grows too large; this is not a flaw of the concept but a consequence of human psychology.

[bspeers]

I have a RoN game that is soo closed to finished, but game-harming bugs are making it impossible to complete.  As Dave knows, it is a very long game that branches out from the RoN universe.

My advice is to ignore consistency.  Have a character you like leave RoN and go to Swaziland, or start a colony on Mars in an alternate dimension.  My game has been in the works for too many years (it's dos only I think), and now the continuity is all messed up, but you know what?  I don't care!  Just play any RoN game and then branch off in any way you like.  Hell, remake all the characters in pointalism style, who cares.  People should be able to follow spin-offs anywhere they like, introduce as many characters as they like and follow other people's plotlines wherever they like.

Obviously there is an overall story in RoN, and if EVERYBODY sent the characters off in every imaginable direction there'd be too little consistency, but that already hasn't happened.  So don't be intimidated, just play one or two.

However, I also support the idea of a new series, as long as it is about (thinks of something stupid and obvious) three roomates whose home happens to be directly on a rift in time and space.  Or about kittens with superpowers, one of the two.

BTW, I really haven't abandoned Edge, I just keep thinking my thesis will be done and it still isn't, so probably when that's done I'll polish it up. -Yo

[DeviantGent]

I don't really want to see RON close up shop yet - mainly because I've been beavering away at it as my first AGS serialised project for quite a while, and to see it being prounounced dead and shipped off to oblivion, thus rendering all my efforts in vain, would be very much a kick in the teeth.

There's a very simple solution to get RON going again - Release More Games. That's ALL there is to it. A few small episodes, utilising the more updated graphics, would be all that's needed to get it back in the spotlight again.

[Joseph DiPerla]

I think we can learn from RoN. We can avoid repeating certain mistakes that RoN made.

What I would propose is something I have wanted to do for a long time, but noone wanted to do this.  So, being that this is here now, again, I am going to throw in my idea.

I was thinking about doing a realistic series of P&C Adventure games based on Super Heroes we create. Basically, I wanted to create our series similar to Marvel or DC, just in a video game Genre with our own idea's and characters.

We can create a team of administrators who would be responsible for the whole series. Of course anyone can make a game within the series, but we can do this ala George Lucas does with Star Wars. Our administrators can create their own games. But their main job is that to control what games enter the series and whats excepted as Canon or not. They would also approve what character/background/art is accepted and set standards and stuff. This would be the breakdown:

The Series Gods (Atleast 3): These guys approve the style, the characters, the story and other things. They also approve what games are considered canon or not. They also create and modify the rules of the series.

The art Administrator (2 atleast): These guys design the template or basic art style within the game, being either for Characters, icons, items, backgrounds, animations, GUI's etc...

Story Administrators: These guys review all games and other media for consistency and accuracy.

Powder Monkey Staff: Other odd jobs assigned to the series stuff. These odd jobs can be advertising the games, maintaining the website and helping where ever else its needed.

If you all think this is a decent idea, please let me know and I will start a new thread with my full synopsis and idea for this along with some rules I made for this series. Then I can ask who would want to join the administration team and I can then start a website for us. I have 350 gig hosting company that is really good.

[Tartalo]

I must confess I didn't play but one RoN game (I just discovered it), that I haven't read the whole thread, and that I didn't prove my game making skills yet, but I have an idea and a big mouth.

Some are worried about consistency, but that seems difficult to achieve when the collective creation is made of independent pieces. The strong point of this is the amount of ideas that are created, not it's coherence as a unity.

Have you thought about creating a distillation of RoN? After one year, for example, take all the chapters and make a consistent story of it, choose the best puzzles, graphics, etc and create a Full length adventure with it, something like "RoN The Movie". To allow participations make open teams for each task: story, graphics, music... that would allow people that don't know how to make a complete game participating in what they prefer.

Just an idea

[Dave Gilbert]

It's very interesting to read this thread and hear why people are turned off by RoN.  It was a long time in coming. 

The RoN artwork standard (set by Yahtzee in the first game) was never BAD per se, but was specifically designed to be very simple and easy to replicate.  What ended up happening was people creating extremely crap graphics and thinking it was OK.  RoN's graphics aren't support to be BAD, just very very simple.  If *I* can replicate the style, than anybody could.

It seems that the major turnoffs are

1- the large number of games
2- the artwork
3- lack of newbie support

#3 can be easily handled by directing people to the AGS site and a redesign of the site.  #1 and #2 are a mixed bag.  I liked the democratic nature of RoN, where anybody could create anything, but in thinking it over it's obvious that the project got too big.  Way too big. 

The really bad games have extremely crap artwork, and there are (let's face it) a large number of them.  Removing them, or seperating them, would kill two birds with one stone (reduce the number of games, and raise the overall standard of the games)

Part of the original appeal of RoN was taking part in an active universe, but there was no real effort needed.  A 12 year old kid could write a game with Davy Jones saying "Boo!" against a blank background, call it a RoN game, and it would get put up on the website.  Seperating the underchievers, the lackluster efforts, and the (to be blunt) crap games from the rest would go a long way in making RoN shine again. 

Perhaps a voting system could be implemented in order to cannonize a game?  A game is released, but NOT included on the main page of the RoN site.  Instead, people have to vote on whether it should be included in the RoN timeline or not.    This could go a long way in improving the quality of future games, since people will create games to impress (and get rewarded for it) instead of vomiting something up in 5 minutes (and getting the pleasure of seeing it on the web).

As for the current games... yes.  Pruning is needed.  Yesterday I would have said no, but I see why it's needed now.  The current system worked well when RoN was in its infancy, but it's obvious that it's not working anymore.  There are too many games, and a hefty percentage of them are awful.  If that's what is turning people away from the series, then by all means let's fix it. 

[DeviantGent]

I like the idea of distinctions. Something like:

1. Long arc-based games, high quality (Night of the Kittens, The Tapestry)

2. Standalone medium length games, high-medium quality (Purity of the Surf, Defender of RON)

3. Short couple-of-room/one room type games, medium quality (Lunchtime of the Damned, Cold Storage)

4. Random games that don't fit into the RON canon, or games that are just generally not that good (won't cite any examples, but there are plenty)

5. Miscellaneous Quiz games, arcade games, just other fun stuff.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

Yes, Dave seems to be coming around and I agree with this sort of thing.  Something I suggested to him was that someone establish a list of mannequin animations, just gray sprites with a bit of shading in various poses and sizes (fat, skinny, guy, girl) and then have that person also redo a few of the original characters using those same mannequins.  Then what you could do is have a sort of do it yourself starter kit with the mannequins in gif format, a solid palette to work from and a few ready made characters to use as a reference for skin tones and the like.  If someone wants to make new chars they would have these mannequins to use to keep the dimensions and style relatively similar.  I'm not saying it would be perfect, but if the shading on the references was say 2-3 colors max the actual character designs would stay relatively consistent, especially with the animations in place.  Of course, if someone wants to do a character not covered in the mannequin list then they could, or they could possibly suggest it.  This would be for a rare case like a non-humanoid or something.  Anyway, just some ideas.

[Renegade Implementor]

Regarding updated graphics, this was something I asked eariler this year on the RoN board.  I think updated graphics would be a good thing, and I'm fond of (and would like to see) the style of the series go in the direction that Krysis and Wogoat.  Partially for the overall look and the ease of use (I've Photoshoped several new rooms from the few screens Kyrsis has done with very little difficulty).  I have a few example graphics if anyone needs a visual reference.

Also, ProgZmax- I just wanted to say I really like the sprites you did.

Now Dave used the word pruning, which sounds like he's suggesting deleting games from the database.  While there are some games that might warrant being removed, would anyone object if games were removed from the site?
- If the amount of games is deterring some people, is separating them by some classification going to make a different?  There'd still be around 75 games on the site, they'd just be rearranged.  Would that still deter people from participating?

[Fleshstalker]

They shouldn't be removed from the site no matter how bad some of them are. I say those that are bad should be separated from the good ones. So the good should go in the timeline and the bad don't.

[Rui 'Trovatore' Pires]

I'm with Fury on this one. But then, I'm a pathological collector who has every single RON game in his hard drive and would like to keep on havin' 'em ALL!!!

[Radiant]

They shouldn't be removed from the site no matter how bad some of them are.

I think it should be done the other way around. Instead of removing all the allegedly bad games, add a new section called "featured games" that has ten or twenty of the best ones, as decided by a few of the longtime RONners.

I'm with Fury on this one. But then, I'm a pathological collector who has every single RON game in his hard drive and would like to keep on havin' 'em ALL!!!

I'll go write a RON game that contains a virus that deletes other RON games! Muahahahaha!

[Dave Gilbert]

Yeah, the "bad" games shouldn't be deleted but rather put in a seperate section of the site.  Perhaps the phrase "alterna-RoN" could apply here

[Snarky]

I like the idea of distinctions. Something like:

1. Long arc-based games, high quality (Night of the Kittens, The Tapestry)

2. Standalone medium length games, high-medium quality (Purity of the Surf, Defender of RON)

3. Short couple-of-room/one room type games, medium quality (Lunchtime of the Damned, Cold Storage)

4. Random games that don't fit into the RON canon, or games that are just generally not that good (won't cite any examples, but there are plenty)

5. Miscellaneous Quiz games, arcade games, just other fun stuff.

Sounds good, but isn't quality independent of length? What about short, high-quality game, or excellent games that don't fit into the RON canon?

[d999]

Hi,
   I'm hooked on RON games so I say please give me more.
   I tried to download Surreality: a RON Game, but , I couldn't right click,left click, or get more info and download from there. IE says it can't find the what-chama-callit. So, what's up with that?
                                                       Thank-you,     DA              d999 on forums