The RoN Problem--How do we solve it???

Started by Captain Lexington, Wed 11/04/2007 04:40:53

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DeviantGent

#80
Quote from: Snarky on Thu 19/04/2007 17:06:00
Quote from: DC on Wed 18/04/2007 18:26:03
I like the idea of distinctions. Something like:

1. Long arc-based games, high quality (Night of the Kittens, The Tapestry)

2. Standalone medium length games, high-medium quality (Purity of the Surf, Defender of RON)

3. Short couple-of-room/one room type games, medium quality (Lunchtime of the Damned, Cold Storage)

4. Random games that don't fit into the RON canon, or games that are just generally not that good (won't cite any examples, but there are plenty)

5. Miscellaneous Quiz games, arcade games, just other fun stuff.

Sounds good, but isn't quality independent of length? What about short, high-quality game, or excellent games that don't fit into the RON canon?

Point. I was trying to stick to 5 catagories. Besides, quality is subjective... maybe it should be based only on length?

Arc based games, Long singles, Medium Singles, Short Singles, Randoms?
The Deviant Gent
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zabnat

Also some RoN awards or editors picks so it would be easy to get the best from the pile :)

[Cameron]

The idea of having another series where people can freely contribute has been attempted. By me. I failed miserably. The setting was rather different, the entire tone as well. With new people fiding AGS, RON can be a training ground, but if they arent interested in comedy it can kill that option, that's why I wanted to create a darker more adult based series for those of that persuasion. I'm not good at gameplay writing so I wrote an extended cut scene that would be made to create interest and get others involved. However art is also not my forte, as in, below par even for a RON style game. I've had about 15 different artists join and quit. But, if anyone is interested, let me know. You can have the script and rework it or use it as it is. I'd really like to see it made, but at the moment I don't have the time or spirit to continue it.
-Cameron

SSH

Maybe better to use tags rather than categories, so a game can be tagged with "Canon", "Medium" and "Quality" or... "Long", "Joke" and "Crap" ;)
12

Snarky

Sure, as long as I can tag something "Brilliant", "Crap", "Canon" and "Nonsense".

Radiant


Mr Flibble

Ah! There is no emoticon for what I'm feeling!

Layabout

I agree with Dave. Catagories are the way forward really.

Although, I'm not suprised it is starting to die out. And unfortunatly, some of the best RON games will never be released. Or Completed I should say.

Although, a tale first if I may. A long long time ago, on forums they called dosuser, a relativly unknown chap proposed an idea. It was a SOAP OPERA. But for games. The idea was, why not create a 'setting', one which could be easily expanded and updated. One which characters could be brought in with ease. One which characters could be sent to prison, murdered by another or move to Queensland. (neighbours reference for CJ)
A continuuing storyline, sometimes sub-plots. But then Yahtzee invaded the thread, stole the idea, and turned it into RON. Nice idea, but the continuing storyline part of the idea never made it through.

Episodic gaming long before telltale even thought of the idea. In the beginning, It was a testing-ground for some of AGS's brightest stars. It still may be, but few quality games have been released in the past three years,as opposed to the first few, in which the best games were made.

Anyway, No-one wants RON to die. If you love it so much, make a short game! Keep the dream alive. Although I can talk....

yes I can....

hehehe....
I am Jean-Pierre.

Akatosh

I think the RoN series should have a small little spin-off, like "IRoN" (IrReality on the Norm) where continuity doesn't really count and which doesn't affect the real RoN world but plays in the same universe - as with the Simpson's Treehouse of Horror stuff. Something nice to get newbies into the whole RoN thing without making them read up all kinds of stuff first. They can grow used to it first, with the IRoN games, and then slowly shift to the "real" RoN. So whaddya think?

Rui 'Trovatore' Pires

I think the first episode should be a IRobot spin-off, featuring iMuse.
Reach for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars.

Kneel. Now.

Never throw chicken at a Leprechaun.

Akatosh

And the music should be available as a seperate download for people's iPods, I know  :=

Renegade Implementor

If the RoN games are going to be split into catagories, I think it would be helpful if there was a general consensus of what would a) be helpful, and b) a number that wouldn't intimidate people by the number of categories.

Off the bat I can think of two: "Non-adventure" which is self-explanatory, and a "slush pile" where games of, as people have said, lesser quality could go.  As for the rest, how should they be classified?  Short games, arc-based games?  I'm not sure if medium-games or long-games would work as I don't think there are any RoN games that could be considered medium or long.

On a different topic, there was mention of a RoN wiki.  There actually is one, although it's a lonely and neglected thing.  The url is http://www.editthis.info/realityonthenorm/index.php/Main_Page

And again, as others have said, the best way to keep things going is to make games (the themed game comp over on the RoN forum is a good example) or contribute in some other way such as music, writing, or art (traditional or sprite/background).

Radiant

Okay.

First off, I'd like the character list split into one-off characters and recurring characters. Because if I want to make a RON game, I want to forget about the former and add cameos for the latter. Ditto for locations.

Second, I'd go for a split into three categories, and these should really be defined by RON die-hards rather than by voting among whomever comes along.
(1) essential. The (few) games that define the really major protagonists. Say the largest game for any character that is playable in five or more games, and/or anything that has a major shaping impact on the RON world. These should be few, because they enable players to "get started".
(2) canon. All short and moderate-length games that have an at least semi-interesting storyline that fits with the rest. Whether these are "arcs" or not is not really relevant, all an "arc" is is a subsection of storyline made by one user. These need not be few; players can play them to get deeper into the world.
(3) slush pile.

Ozzie

Man, I'm excited to see people talking about RON again!! Whoohoo!!!

I am, of course, also working on a new RON game. It actually grew bigger than I intended it to be and I think it would be hard to cut it down.
I have completely outlined the story, thought up most of the puzzles, scripted the parser interface and finished one background and nearly one music track. I released the last one on the RON Release Something, though it was still unfinished.

That's not much, of course, but I don't have the time, sadly. If I had I would probably spend night and day on it.

But I will show you the only background for now, so you can see there's still some progress made. Oh, btw, I'm a terribly artist, so I spend 3 DAYS on it so that just people could stop complaining about the terrible graphics.
Here it is:

Apartment Floor Normal:


With night filter and light effects:


Yeah, it's not that great, but I'm improving!!


So, now my suggestions to help RON:

First, I think DarkComet is/was working on a game which took place on a yacht and which didn't care much about RON consistency and rules. But it was clear that it was part of an alternative reality of RON and that this episode shouldn't have an impact on the overall timeline. So, character may have died, but this wouldn't have stood in contradiction.

You can immediately start working on such a game, nothing will stop you!

Furthermore, I think that games should go through an official beta test period. That means that some small consistency errors which might be annoying could still be fixed before they are added to the database.
Some examples:
- With this Luigis Restaurant wouldn't have "crushed" the Pet Shop. (this would have probably killed off the relevance of "Rend" though ;))
- The misunderstanding the Davys room lies directly at the outside door could have been fixed (I think it was Nightwatch)
- Some strange things like the window of Scids to the back alley which jumps its position from picture to picture (though Yahtzee already introduced it)
- And the window in the upper floor of the Jones House (did nobody else wonder that it didn't make any sense there? Dylan???)

There are some other things which weren't explained (like that the kiddie sheriff is replaced by the older one) but still could in another game, so this is no inconsistency per se.
Even the Pet Shop example wouldn't be a problem as there could be a game which told the story how the Pet Shop got teared down and replaced with the Restaurant. But then, some future games took the Pet Shop and some the Restaurant so at some time it didn't make much sense anymore.

Additionaly, there should be a seperation between story relevant and not relevant games.
For example, Defender Of RON, ISpy, Purity Of The Surf and the Tapestry Trilogy are certainly relevant to the story, as they introduce new characters and locations and new facts, but on the other hand Simon's Journey and Disappearance Time are more something like a Simpsons Episode with the reset function.

This way, you would have an idea which games you would need to play to have an idea of the whole story.

That's all for now!
Robot Porno,   Uh   Uh!

Dave Gilbert

#94
The sherriff was replaced?  I just figured he was redrawn.  He's the same guy, I believe.

The subject of a "quality game" is a sticky one, at least in terms of the early games.  How would one catergorize a game that, while "bad", introduced a character or concept that was used in other games?  By most standards, a game like "Paranormal Investigator" would be considered pretty bad, but the main character (Jhon Steel) was seen in a bunch of other games that are considered very good.

Radiant

Quote from: Dave Gilbert on Mon 23/04/2007 22:51:03
The subject of a "quality game" is a sticky one, at least in terms of the early games. 
If that was a response to me - I meant the "biggest" game defining a playable character, not the first one. What I meant by "essential" is basically the five? eight? RON games that a new person should play to get a good feel of the universe.


Ah well, with all this thread stuff, I think I'll put together a RON game after ATOTK is complete. Shouldn't be that much work. I've even got an idea for one.

DeviantGent

Quote from: Ozzie on Mon 23/04/2007 22:32:50
First, I think DarkComet is/was working on a game which took place on a yacht and which didn't care much about RON consistency and rules. But it was clear that it was part of an alternative reality of RON and that this episode shouldn't have an impact on the overall timeline. So, character may have died, but this wouldn't have stood in contradiction.

Not me Chief. I'm currently working on The Exorcism of Julian Lapis and a multi-part serial, Dawn of the Dayists - all of which is set firmly in the canon.

Are you thinking of Kunafits? He was planning something like that, lots of character deaths and whatnot.

Oh, and that window thingy is meant to be the skylight from Apocalypse Meow. I snuck it in when I did that revamped background which took the best of everything and merged into one uber-Town Square.
The Deviant Gent
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Renegade Implementor

QuoteThe subject of a "quality game" is a sticky one, at least in terms of the early games.  How would one catergorize a game that, while "bad", introduced a character or concept that was used in other games?

Simple, by the whim of the RoN admin of course.  There, how's that for a display of adminstrative power abuse. ;D

Seriously, everyone is going to have a different opinion on what should be considered "bad" or "quality" in reference to RoN.  There should probably be a small group that would determine what qualifies as a quality game, average or just plain bad game based on a few criteria.  This would, hopefully, keep the process impartial and fair.

Ozzie

#98
Oh, DC, you're right, it was Kunafits. I confused this, sorry.

Quote from: Dave Gilbert on Mon 23/04/2007 22:51:03
The sherriff was replaced?  I just figured he was redrawn.  He's the same guy, I believe.

I don't know. If the redrawn sprite looks 20 years older like the original one then I would call it a different character.

Also, you're right Dave, I didn't make a distinction between story-relevant & quality games.
But I think that some games, though they might be horrible for themselves, brought some interesting ideas to RON. I, for example, will reuse The Spoons in my game.

[edit] But I don't think that you would have to play the game where they first appeared to understand RON. I probably never finished it myself. It seems non-relevant then.
But I would say that Davy C'est Mort, for example, IS a relevant game, if only because of my prequel ideas ;) [/edit]

I think, to distinct between story-relevant and not relevant games is important for developers, not for pure gamers.
For gamers there should be a featured page.

I think another problem is that for the most time only one person is working at a RON episode. It's not the way that one does story and scripting, another the music and the last does the graphics.
Something like this is pretty common for "normal" AGS games.
Of course, musically, we have the excellent RON theme. But most people get easily frustrated with graphics, so while there might be good ideas, either the game doesn't get finished or it has ugly graphics.
Sure, most who are good at graphics make also their own games. But it would help to establish the thought of collaboration a bit more, especially because there's necessarily not much new to add in terms of sprite or background graphics or for the musical background.

Furthermore, some character descriptions are awfully thin on the RON page. I had to play Dead Man's Political Party to find out the name of the sheriff!!
There should be a list of all the roles of the alley bum. Nothing would be less funny than a repeated one.

[edit] At last, there should be walkthroughs available for every RON game. It seems bad enough that you have to play through many of them to get an idea of RON, but it's really terrible when you're hopelessly stuck at a puzzle. It doesn't help the research of the back story. [/edit]
Robot Porno,   Uh   Uh!

Rui 'Trovatore' Pires

There's plenty of walkthroughs available... and for those that don't have a walkthrough... well, I'll just say that I've played through the lot of them (except for Belusebius' Arrival, which I just cheated until I saw the end, because that game is dreadful) without hitting major trouble.

Plus, there's always the Hints and Tips forum.

ALso, what's the problem with a repeat personality of the bum?
Reach for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars.

Kneel. Now.

Never throw chicken at a Leprechaun.

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