Expressing Atheism

Started by evenwolf, Tue 31/07/2007 09:33:30

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space boy

Limpingfish, I would appreciate if you didn't speak on behalf of the sides you are not a part of.

LimpingFish

I don't believe I was. I was speaking, as an agnostic, from experience.
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space boy

It sounded like a generalization to me, but if I misunderstood you, I apologize.

LimpingFish

#103
Which is why I used the word "can" instead of "does".

Either way, no harm done.

EDIT: With Theist/Agnostic/Atheist debating the existence of God, it's interesting to see how, on other facets of religion, agreement is easier to obtain:

"Many of us saw religion as harmless nonsense. Beliefs might lack all supporting evidence but, we thought, if people needed a crutch for consolation, where's the harm? September 11th changed all that. Revealed faith is not harmless nonsense, it can be lethally dangerous nonsense. Dangerous because it gives people unshakeable confidence in their own righteousness. Dangerous because it gives them false courage to kill themselves, which automatically removes normal barriers to killing others. Dangerous because it teaches enmity to others labelled only by a difference of inherited tradition. And dangerous because we have all bought into a weird respect, which uniquely protects religion from normal criticism. Let's now stop being so damned respectful!"                                                                                           

Richard Dawkins, Atheist.

And I agree with him.
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raddicks

I give up, why bother flying the government propaganda 'it rot holes in your brain'. It just goes to show our society is ignorant, I sympathise with you atheists because there is too much of a religious domination going on in America. About your friend and the pigeon? consider the possibility he is using hyperbole, exagerating or is just lying, many people bad mouthing LSD do so without ever trying it and because they hear old wives tales about how it 'messes you up' and while it could do, you would have to be already genetically predisposed to schizophrenia (in reality, alcohol and tobacco are miles more damaging). There is nothing 'mickey mouse' hallucinations with LSD and if you don't believe me then look on Erowid or any other websites. When the CIA realised it was an ineffective tool for brainwashing or a 'weapon' to disorientate the Vietnamese (google MKULTRA, they put LSD unwillingly to their own soldier's food and water supplies - hence people were having a bad trip). It sometimes had the opposite effect and that the people doing it were suddenly 'waking up' to the hypocrisy round them the government predictably wants to silence public opinion with fear.

Any society that wants power must remain by fear, it is extremely likely the government, actually there is evidence that the government had a hand in 9/11 and the people bought it hook line and sinker.

I don't know about you, hallucinogens shouldn't fall under the same umbrella as cocaine, heroin, crack etc.

Anyway, to my argument

its not fair to take concepts such as 'telepathy' and use it empirically. Like I said, its impossible to convey the language used. The telepathic thought, I would describe it as tapping into a 'logos' or great conciousness. Whether or not you agree that is what happens or I am deluding myself isn't important. I didn't need drugs to think like this, it only affirmed my preexisting inner-voice that something wasn't right about atheism (I shouldn't have to spend 6 months on a holy trip in Tibet to work that out, thats what philosophy and using your brain is). God is ALL and ALL is God. And I don't see why you think I am not using my skepticism, I am not blind to the obvious deterministic ego-driven patriarchal-dominator culture selfish existing in this planet today.

space boy

#105
Limpingfish: i agree aswell

Quote from: raddicks on Thu 02/08/2007 20:14:59
Any society that wants power must remain by fear, it is extremely likely the government, actually there is evidence that the government had a hand in 9/11 and the people bought it hook line and sinker.

If you have the evidence I'd love to see it.

Quote
its not fair to take concepts such as 'telepathy' and use it empirically.

Why is it not fair? Anything that somehow influences or is influenced by the physical world can be tested empirically. The procedure is very simple. You sit in one room, another person sits in a room next to yours. The person is given a sheet of paper with some pictures or text. You are supposed to tell what the person is looking at. If you succeed, your telepathic ability is proven.

Meowster

Quote from: raddicks on Thu 02/08/2007 20:14:59
I give up, why bother flying the government propaganda 'it rot holes in your brain'. It just goes to show our society is ignorant, I sympathise with you atheists because there is too much of a religious domination going on in America. About your friend and the pigeon? consider the possibility he is using hyperbole, exagerating or is just lying, many people bad mouthing LSD do so without ever trying it and because they hear old wives tales about how it 'messes you up'

My friend wasn't lying, she takes LSD from time to time and enjoys it. As a drug, she likes it. Again, you're making terrible assumptions...


Quote...and while it could do, you would have to be already genetically predisposed to schizophrenia

So how does her experience differ from yours, in which you spoke to plants and everything had a living conciousness... including rocks? What makes her "genetically predisposed" to schizophrenia, while you're not?

Quote(in reality, alcohol and tobacco are miles more damaging).

Debatable, although I would tend to agree that OCCASIONAL use of acid or 'shrooms etc is almost definitely less harmful than the binge drinking and excessive smoking that a lot of people partake in every single day of their lives...


QuoteThere is nothing 'mickey mouse' hallucinations with LSD and if you don't believe me then look on Erowid or any other websites.

My friend imagined that a pigeon was talking to her. She met the pigeon face-to-face in person, she just imagined that it was speaking to her. This is absolutely no different from you speaking to plants, rocks, etc. It's not a "mickey mouse" hallucination. It's no different from yours, you just don't realise that because the idea of talking to a pigeon seems somehow less feasible to you, than speaking with plants.


Quote
its not fair to take concepts such as 'telepathy' and use it empirically. Like I said, its impossible to convey the language used. The telepathic thought, I would describe it as tapping into a 'logos' or great conciousness. Whether or not you agree that is what happens or I am deluding myself isn't important. I didn't need drugs to think like this, it only affirmed my preexisting inner-voice that something wasn't right about atheism

Perhaps you are the one with a genetic predisposition to schizophrenia, and not my friend?

I really do find it interesting that you're using drug-induced hallucinations to confirm the existence of god to yourself. Possibly these posts all belond in a separate thread by now... but yeah... it's a pretty weak argument.

I also wish you'd stop making massive assumptions about things that possibly contradict your argument.

raddicks

I thought when you were saying 'pigeon' it came out of 'thin air', like something out of fantasia. I totally believe you can communicate, birds and other animals are exceptionally perceptive.

I didn't accuse your friend of being schizophrenic, I'm saying bad trips are going to be common if you are mentally unstable, accelerating the psychotic breakdown.

I will leave this thread, I am very ill right now with a fever and cold and wish to retire to bed.

Peace and good night.

Meowster

Well... when you return to this thread, I'd like to ask you the likelihood that the pigeon asked her for a fight and then claimed it had many rows of razor sharp teeth with which to bite her.

Do you really think that a pigeon would say that?

LimpingFish

Depends. Might've been a chav pigeon.

And we do seem to be the filling in a tangent sandwich at the moment.
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Stupot

The way I boil it down is this:
Agnostics say "I'll believe it when I see it"
Atheists say "You'll never make me believe it."

I call myself an atheist because I'm in the latter camp.  If one day I saw something that seemed to be definitive proof of the existence of God, I would still be shaking my head and trying to come up with more plausible explanations because I'm a stubborn like that.  ;D

As for the whole hallucinogens making you see what's really there, surely if this were the case then anyone who took acid would have seen God swirling about.  If they didn't then either the seeing-what's-really-there thing is rubbish or the notion of God is rubbish.

Personally I think they're both rubbish.

It's all rubbish I tell thee.

evenwolf

Stupot:   that's an interesting, and typical, way of boiling it down.

But it neglects the fact that agnostics & atheists are not organized.     Summing it up like that lends to the ignorance and misconceptions outsiders have towards both groups of people. 

I'm glad to clarify "weak atheist" & what that means every time I say it.  Because the last thing we need is more Christians who lump us into a pile with anarchists or nihilists.   Many of us have beliefs and queries that make us more spiritual than the average person.   Many of us explore God everyday & simply come to the contrary conclusion.

I like to discuss religion whereas many Christians may think an atheist simply revolts at the idea.    I would hate to sponsor that misconception, or add to it... by encouraging such a rudimentary explanation.
"I drink a thousand shipwrecks.'"

The Ivy

To reply to the original point of the thread, I probably wouldn't tell the "believing" end of my family that I'm an atheist. Hell, my grandmother worries about me walking to the grocery store in broad daylight. I don't need her fretting about my soul too. :)

evenwolf

Interesting sidenote.      I probably never would have declared atheism if my grandmother were still alive.    She is the most churchgoing member of the family & would have keeled over had I said anything "in that direction"  in her lifetime.


Anyone else have family situation like that?
"I drink a thousand shipwrecks.'"

Stupot

My family was never a churchgoing bunch, but my mum believes in God and would always put "Church of England" on any forms etc that required a religion.

But in the last Census I told my mum to put Atheist for me and she was a little disappointed.  I'm not going to put Christian when I don't even believe in God.  Sorry mum.  This is one way of expressing our atheism.  By not lying to those who my be a little disappointed.  Why should we pretend to believe something we don't. Everyone's entitled to their belief.

Another way I have express my Atheism was a couple of years ago when I was summoned for Jury Service.  Every member of the Jury has to swear an oath saying that they will promise to look at all the facts and come to the fairest possible conclusion.  They have to swear by God.

There is an alternative oath for non-believers and people of other faiths.  Everyone before me had just sworn by God and I wondered how many of them actually do believe in God or are they just going along with it because it's less hassle.

But I couldn't just go along with it.  I had to stick by my belief and in front of a room full of lawyers, a judge, the rest of the jury and other complete strangers I plucked up the courage to ask for the alternative oath and I had to explain that I don't beleive in God in front of them.  But I felt proud of myself for sticking to what I believe even though it meant announcing that I was (apparently) the only one in the room who didn't believe in God.

MrColossal

We never really talked about religion or church in our house. My grandfather went to church but I think that was just because his wife died and then all his friends died and he needed something to do and some social interaction [holy shit that's depressing!]. One time my mother was talking to her sister and mentioned that we're not a really a believing family and she said "Oh Joanie... But you gotta believe!" in a sad tone.

That's about as far as that goes in my family. I've had to deal with more discussions with other family members talking about ghosts and taking photos of floating orbs and spiritualism than I have about Jesus loving me from another dimension...
"This must be a good time to live in, since Eric bothers to stay here at all"-CJ also: ACHTUNG FRANZ!

Redwall

QuoteAnyone else have family situation like that?

My mom teaches Sunday school. Yeah, I don't mention atheism around her.
aka Nur-ab-sal

"Fixed is not unbroken."

Stupot

Actually, to add to my last post.  I went and ruined my proud moment of sticking to my belief by later agreeing to be the Godfather of my friend's son.

But even though it was hypocritical of me to do that, I'm not ashamed.  I like to think of myself as his 'Goodfather'.  I won't be teaching him the way of God like I agreed to in the at his christening, but I certainly like to think I'll be there for him to give him advice if he wants it and help him to be a good person.

evenwolf

#118
I'm not certain that "godfather" is anything to feel hypocritical of.   Whose godfather actually taught them christianity and made them stick to it?   Whose parents here even did that?   Its just a tradition that's meaningless.


Mostly makes you liable if the father dies.   
"I drink a thousand shipwrecks.'"

Stupot

Quote from: evenwolf on Fri 03/08/2007 05:07:30
I'm not certain that "godfather" is anything to feel hypocritical of.   Whose godfather actually taught them christianity and made them stick to it?   Whose parents here even did that?   Its just a tradition that's meaningless.


Mostly makes you liable if the father dies.   

Yeh the word 'Godfather' has little meaning today, but I still had to go into a church and pray and swear to God that I'd bring the kid up on a Godly path.  I felt uncomfortable doing it.  But he's a cool kid and I'm sure he won't care that his godfather doesn't believe in God.. haha

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