Expressing Atheism

evenwolf · Fri 03/08/2007 05:30:07

taking the god out of 'godfather'.... technically that makes you his father.

Stupot · Fri 03/08/2007 05:38:46

Quote from: evenwolf on Fri 03/08/2007 05:30:07
taking the god out of 'godfather'.... technically that makes you his father.

Haha, there were one or two people who originally thought that to be the case, but one look at the kid and you can tell who the dad is... and it ain't me... besides I never slept with his mum and I don't really want to thank you very much.. haha.

voh · Fri 03/08/2007 08:23:47

Quote from: evenwolf on Fri 03/08/2007 04:24:33
Anyone else have family situation like that?

Gramps and gramm were both highly religious and knew about my atheism, as well as my sister's. Because my mom and dad both grew up in highly religious times, and they had a realization not much unlike the topic starter of feeling deceived and lied to, they allowed us to choose ourselves whether we wanted to go to church, and we never did.

We always had the opportunity, but when christmas mass, for example, came along, me and my sister chose to stay behind (after the first try).

The only times I went to church services after that first time was when gramps died, and then when gramm died, as a sign of respect to them. But I didn't partake in communion, because that would just be hypocritical.

Then again, they say fairly clearly that if you don't believe that the body of christ is in the wine and that cookie thing, you shouldn't partake anyway, so I felt quite pleased with that.

I went to mass in Paris, because I wanted to see how it would be at the Notre Dame, and while it was beautiful (the place has beautiful acoustics) and I kinda got the reason people get strength from such a thing, I just can't get into it.

It's too dreamy for me, and my grandparents got that. I respected their religion, and they respected my lack of one.

See? It's easy!

evenwolf · Fri 03/08/2007 08:41:51

Quote from: voh on Fri 03/08/2007 08:23:47they say if you don't believe that the body of christ is in the wine and that cookie thing, you shouldn't partake anyway

THE COMMUNION WAFER IS NOT A COOKIE!!!!! IT IS NOT TO BE TRIVIALIZED!!!!!!!!!

http://www.catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=1855

Having said that, I buy the body of Christ in bulk. Tasting is believing!

http://www.amazon.com/Communion-Wafers-Box-of-1000/dp/0805470859

space boy · Fri 03/08/2007 11:41:46

Quote from: Stupot on Fri 03/08/2007 03:09:48
The way I boil it down is this:
Agnostics say "I'll believe it when I see it"
Atheists say "You'll never make me believe it."

I call myself an atheist because I'm in the latter camp. If one day I saw something that seemed to be definitive proof of the existence of God, I would still be shaking my head and trying to come up with more plausible explanations because I'm a stubborn like that.

Red Alert! This is the misunderstanding I'm talking about. The reason why some theists don't want to give an atheist evidence for god is because they assume an atheist won't change their mind anyway(strong atheism). Of course you don't want to waste time with someone who doesn't care what you say. But when I say "prove to me that god exists" I don't say that in a cynical way but honestly ask them to present evidence, and if it proves the existence of god, why deny it? I finally have proof, halleluyah! Unfortunately this generalization about atheists comes up quite often. Let me jumble it up a little bit:

Weak atheists say "I'll believe it when I see it"
Strong atheists say "You'll never make me believe it."

CoffeeBob · Sat 04/08/2007 00:27:55

I'm an atheist down to my every bone, and I don't believe in any higher power or whatever. Let's think it over fellers and gals, if let's say your mom would be involved in a car-crash and was severly wounded, she eventually and amazingly/fortunately survives thanks to the doctors' hard work at the hospital. Now, who should you reward and thank for the effort? God or the skilled personell at the hospital? Frankly, I would've been very pissed off if I was a doctor that had saved a persons life, only to hear the relatives to the saved one praise the lord for his generosity.

Luckily for me, I'm born in a very atheist-friendly environment. I'd even call it atheist-encouraging, since none of my relatives follow any religion whatsoever.

lo_res_man · Sat 04/08/2007 09:36:47

On a personal level I believe in God. It gives me a kind of comfort, is that so wrong? On a scientific level I just don't think I have enough data to decide. I believe in an ultimate truth, like though you can't say absolutely wether the earth is spinning counterclockwise or clockwise or wether it is the rest of the universe is spinning in the opposite direction or maybe its just you, but SOMETHING is still spinning. but I don't think we are at the lies-told-to-children stage yet, let know alone enough to decide one way or the other on the issues that have been plaguing humanity since we became whatever it is we are. I dislike atheists who claim that they have it all figured out and the rest of us are just rubes, ditto with deists who claim the same. I am probably going to get flack for this but it seems to me the sometimes, like with any strong opinion, wether politicks or sports teams, or fanboyism, atheism becomes at the very least quasi religious. but like any religion if it comforts you then well, good luck I hope you find a lifetime of happiness and fufillment, I just think otherwise. I admit I was brought up in a quite religious family, but I do have the vanity to thnk I am at least a groaper after truth.

mouthuvmine · Sat 04/08/2007 12:12:54

People that ask for proof one way or the other kinda make me laugh (not in a rude or condiscending way though, honestly). I mean, you KNOW you're not going to get proof. No one that believes in GOD can offer proof that doesn't start with telling you how God makes them FEEL (not proof), and atheists talk science and logic AROUND the subject, because you can't disprove God. Not to say atheists are wrong automaticly, it's just that God is, if nothing else, an idea, and you can't definitely disprove an idea. I personally believe in God, and I simply can't be convinced that God isn't there. I could be wrong, but good luck proving it to me. And I have a strongly atheist friend who's exactly the same. I just woke up, so I don't if that made any sense.

Nikolas · Sat 04/08/2007 12:29:03

It makes perfect sense, mate.

space boy · Sat 04/08/2007 13:04:52

Quote from: lo_res_man on Sat 04/08/2007 09:36:47
On a personal level I believe in God. It gives me a kind of comfort, is that so wrong?

Unproven personal beliefs are not necceserily wrong. You could believe that black cats bring bad luck and i couldn't care less. The problem for me is when people start to develop extremist thinking like "black cats bring bad luck, so let's kill all black cats". This could go further to "let's kill all owners of black cats". And i'm not exaggarating. Just take a look at what's going on in belfast or the near east. It annoys me every time when people say to let others believe what they want if it gives them comfort. Did they miss that some religious extremists believe non-believers should be killed? Some believe it's ok to behead innocent hostages for their cause and they believe they will get 70-something virgins when they blow up themselves and innocent people around. Also google and youtube peter popoff, sylvia browne, john edward and jose-luis de jesus miranda for other malicious uses of religious faith.

Believe whatever you want, as long as your belief doesnt make you harm or fraud others, or become a victim of violence or fraud yourself. And next time someone says "oh, just let people believe what they want, what harm does it do" bring up the cases i mentioned.

Redwall · Sat 04/08/2007 14:11:08

The problem with those people is not that they believe in God, but that they don't believe in man.

("He's a decent man, but with an overweening pride and sense of responsibility borne of a fundamental lack of respect for the human animal. He believes in God, but not in man, in man's ability to choose, to live in freedom. He has Christ in his brain, but not in his heart.")

lo_res_man · Sat 04/08/2007 20:48:59

It would have been nice for you to at least source that quote, I had to google it and while it is very apt I don't think it is quite fair to assume that everyone knows or watches the same tv shows as you.

Rui 'Trovatore' Pires · Sat 04/08/2007 21:11:12

It's funny how so many people believe in A god. I've been having this sort of discussion relatively often, with friends who range between 19 and 51 years old, and it's interesting how many people believe in A god. Or an entity. Or Destiny. Or pre-destined points of our life with a lot of blanks to fill in.

Yeah, I'm lumping it all into the same bag - because when all else is said and done, religion is faith is belief is "there's something out there". Someone that loves us (God), someone that has planned everything (Fate), something that etc etc etc.

I can understand this necessity - after all, the alternative is to accept that life on this planet is just a fluke, and we came *this close* to not existing at all, or at least not as we know it. That so many things in our daily life, and in our past and future, are so much slaves to accident and chaos. If we don't believe in an entity, we have to accept that we're always one step away from glory and one step away from destruction, and won't even recognize it until we've gone that extra step.

But I ask you, isn't THAT knowledge that makes life so much more precious?

Me, I believe in evolution. I believe that the human species has evolved to where it is now, and that human societies are undergoing constant evolutions, forever trying out different and better ways to live in this big wide world. I believe that what we are is based mostly, if not solely, of our past, our surroundings, our interactions with our surroundings (think Aristoteles)... and a great deal of luck, chance and random. And that is our tragedy, and ultimately that is our glory. I believe in learning from the past to put into the future.

However - in the end, this matter f**k-all. We'll all still see our lives as we see fit. Whether you feel your life is being controlled or whether you think every day is shaped by you and you alone, it'll still be the same day, originated by a chain of events put into action a long long time ago involving people interacting with people and a good deal of luck.

Redwall · Sat 04/08/2007 22:45:36

Quote from: lo_res_man on Sat 04/08/2007 20:48:59It would have been nice for you to at least source that quote, I had to google it and while it is very apt I don't think it is quite fair to assume that everyone knows or watches the same tv shows as you.

I didn't think the source was really relevant.

But for anyone else wondering: it's from The X-Files episode "Hollywood A.D.", spoken by a character named Micah Hoffman (who claims to have become Jesus Christ) regarding a Catholic cardinal.

lo_res_man · Sun 05/08/2007 01:42:13

I believe in god and I don't believe in fate, just what are you implying? I guess if we invented gods, it was because we cannot stand the Silence. We cannot stand the universes indifferance to us, it drives us to search for something we can argue with, plead and beg, negotiate with. We want something to shake our fist at.

Rui 'Trovatore' Pires · Sun 05/08/2007 10:37:44

Quotejust what are you implying?

Who was that directed to? If it was me, I'd say I implied only what I said, that I believe all those entities to be just a comfort, a way to stand the silence, as you said. I just lumped them all together in a single bag.

If it wasn't me, do please disregard this post and go on with the show.

lo_res_man · Mon 06/08/2007 06:50:15

Yes it was you sorry, should have made that more clear, Well I find it kind of offensive that you lump them all into one bag, Example, me. One I don't believe in destiny, I don't believe God interferes with everything all the time. I think God gave us free will, and to quote a futurama episode I don't completely understand, "If you do your job right, people won't know if you did anything at all" SO i don't really like your stereotyping, I have doubts and confusion, but I am proud of those doubts, they tell me I'm not a robot to the way I was raised, or to the popular scientific viewpoint. And just because you have a sincere belief in god doesn't mean you can't be a world class scientist. Michael Faraday, one of my hero's growing up believed very much in a Creator , yet, made a lasting impact in both Chemistry and Physics, and creating many of the devises that make this modern world, such as the generator and an electric motor

Stupot · Mon 06/08/2007 08:02:33

Fate/destiny is the excuse people give to make themselves feel less stupid when they f*ck up or if something doesn't go to plan.

"It wasn't meant to be", they say, because they fell asleep and missed a hot date. No... you fell asleep, you loser, and now she's gone off with the captain of the football team and they're probably doing it right now. Don't try to pin the blame on some unseen force, coz you're not fooling anyone.

I don't think fate/destiny and God can be lumped in the same bag... as LRM says, God promotes free will. But I don't believe in him either so my bag is pretty empty.

The "whole wide world" and all the "creatures great and small" are products of science, and they are products which are constantly being updated to meet ever-changing demands. This is evolution. And as Rui said, everything evolves to try to best fit into the present, which is refined and sculptured by the past. The future is really irrelevant, except to say that whatever is living in that time will have evolved (or at least tried to) to best live with the climate and conditions of that era. And good luck to them.

lo_res_man · Mon 06/08/2007 09:40:11

ah no offence but the creatures aren't trying. The only creatures who might ever try to evolve is humans and then its not technically evolution, its just good new fashioned genetic engineering ( or Eugenics, which freaks me out). To say they are trying is darn well Lamarck. Now admittedly you may just be using verbal short-hand. But when debating one must be precise, otherwise the issue could become confused. Evolution is the accumulation of favourable accidents. There is no goal or design. And it has to do little with the present, its about accidents that favored your ancestors, the mutations happened to them, not you. The only way it applies to the present is in the way the conditions today are similar enough to the past that the lucky breaks still apply.

Stupot · Mon 06/08/2007 10:20:07

I think you know what I meant and are confusing pedantry with debate.

When I say "try" I don't mean that each individual creature or plant necessarily makes a conscious effort to evolve. Each species, however, is unknowingly doing just that. When the accidental mutations occur, the ones whose mutations best suit their 'present' environment are more likely to be the ones who survive and keep the species alive (even if a new species is created in its place).