Second Amendment Reinstated in Washington

Started by LRH, Sat 28/06/2008 03:31:08

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Andail

#20
I think Raggit's view (which is predominant in USA) originates in the concept of inherently good and bad people.
As long as we make sure the good guys are armed, we'll be fine. Best would be if only the good guys could be armed.
Of course, a good guy is one who is innocent. But everyone is innocent until proven guilty, and there has to be a first time for everything. - Unless, of course, you believe that some people are born evil, and that this evil can be detected and recorded, in order to prevent evil people to get a hold of guns before they commit their first gun related crime.

But as Matti said; criminals don't come from hell, armed and ready. They are products of society. Armed with the weapons provided by said society.

If people weren't allowed to buy guns, there would be less demand on the market, factories would produce fewer guns and there would be fewer guns on the streets. Even evil people's guns are manufactured in normal, legal gun factories.
Naturally, USA's biggest problem is that there are too many freaking guns everywhere. If there weren't any guns, people wouldn't be able to shoot each other.

I think that the notion that you can prevent crime with terror balance is so profoundly flawed that it's hard to concieve good counter arguments.
"Let's not break into this house, the owner might have a gun." But burglaries still occur, how can that be? Do they have scanners that can detect which houses have weapons and which haven't? Or could it be that burglars are often either desperate or obdurate or dumb enough to simply ignore that risk? Could it be that they simply bring their own guns, just in case? See what happened there? Escalation.
Because any normal-witted family father would rather just let a couple of criminals take
the dvd-player than engage in a shoot-out with them, risking the lives of the entire family.

If my arguments were wrong, all the gazillion weapons in USA would establish a perfect terror balance, deterring everyone to commit any sort of crime, out of fear of the other people's weapons. Sadly, this isn't the case.

InCreator

#21
Guns. Are meant... to kill people.

The less people carry guns, the better - is what I believe. No matter what's the purpose. If you need a gun, instrument to kill people just to be safe, I think it's time to move somewhere else.

Why gun anyway? In a self-defense situation, gun provides very little advantage. If you can get your hands on a gun easily, criminal also can. I don't find owning a firearm something that makes me more safe. Instead, some martial arts training would benefit much more, and would be actually useful even if you manage to live through all your life without an incident - which is much better than carry a gun all the time and never have use for it... And if things go bad, no gun or kung fu will ensure you 100% safety.

Where I live, a firearm is a rarity. Police carry firearms, military does. That's IT. Even common criminals VERY rarely have firearms or commit crimes involving a gun, and when they do, it's either some improvised gun of unknown quality, or really serious criminal, from organized thus more serious crime. Like Russian mafia. But these people don't spend time robbing banks or mugging elderly people on the street anyway.


People don't usually have guns. Sure, there's hunters, grandfathers with what they saved from WWII or some businessmen with gun license, but usually, no gun. Everyone has right to own a firearm for self-defense purpose, but guns are expensive, getting a license means long and costly bureaucratic process to go through, and...
...nobody really needs one.

I find that good.

Disco

#22
Quote from: Andail on Sat 28/06/2008 16:20:01
Remember that you're representing a country with an absurd amount of gun related violence, and a health care system so messed up that even insured people can't afford it, and rather go to Indonesia or wherever for their heart surgeries. Maybe you could be just a tiny bit more openminded about other models.

I agree on all these points. While I understand the fear people may have that at any moment in this violent country they may be broken into and have a gun put in their face, which of (course can and does happen) to say that that is the most likely sort of gun-related violence is completely off. The opposition to gun laws will find the worst case scenario in the newspaper and say that is telling for why average citizens should be able to have guns. All the while presuming that other average citizens like myself will just magically trust them to be armed responsibly.

It doesn't matter to me what sort of gun education or protection reasons people will have for owning guns, those who would choose not to use them or advocate for gun rights like myself (who would never even touch[ a gun, even if unloaded) should not be forced into a situation where the already sky-high number of privately owned guns is made greater as a sort of check and balance on the things that go "bump" in the night.

The constitution-humping that happens whenever gun rights are questioned is another area that annoys. When the Supreme Court was deciding the case of handgun ownership in DC, they were looking at the language to determine what was meant at the time, whether it was intended for the general population or for militias, and based their (split majority) decision on that language. The constitution is supposed to be a living document, but is hardly so. There is always talk about "finding the original intention of the Founders" which after 200+ years I think is way past irrelevant because they are long dead and have no right to govern, not a even a moment beyond their passing.

*******************

Regarding healthcare, the most powerful word to use against a national health service here is the states is to call it "socialist", which while accurate in definition is used very specifically to get people to believe that it is some kind of communist deathtrap and you will suddenly lose any choice in doctor or hospital. It is effective because most people have a lack of knowledge of other systems, or simply accept the current system out of some type of nationalist pride.

I have been uninsured since age 16, and have really no choice but to hope for the best whenever I have a health scare, which has happened from time to time and is rather terrifying. Though I guess I should be glad that I don't have to wait in a long line at the hospital  ::) perhaps it would be better to die or go into bankruptcy than wait a little while :/



I seriously need to leave this country before it inevitably kills me. If only.

Pumaman

Quote from: Raggit on Sat 28/06/2008 16:27:13
The common people don't buy guns with the intention to murder, they buy them with the intention to defend themselves from those who DO plan to hurt.  Taking that right away just disarms people who want protection, and doesn't stop criminals from getting ahold of guns.  They WILL obtain firearms no matter what, and when the common man is defenseless, the lawbreakers would be able to rape and pillage, as long as they're quick enough to avoid the arrival of the police.  

I'm sure I remember reading some research where it turned out that in the US, law abiding people who owned a gun were more likely to be shot than those who didn't.

Think about it -- supposing a burglar enters your house in the night. You get woken up, go downstairs with your gun to investigate. The burglar sees you coming down the stairs with a gun and shoots you dead in response.

On the other hand, if you went downstairs with no weapon, the burglar would not see a threat, and was more likely to tell you to put your hands up and wait for him to leave with your stuff.

And even if the burglar was unarmed, most law-abiding people who own a gun would very rarely need to use it, so they probably wouldn't know how. When the time came, they'd probably forget about the safety catch, or forget to load it, or just not have the balls to pull the trigger. All of which would probably end up with the hardened burglar wrestling the gun off them and ending up more in control than they were to begin with.

LimpingFish

I could never feel comfortable around a gun, regardless of it's legal status. Guns are designed to destroy whatever they happen to be pointing at; people, beer bottles, wave after wave of rabid blue-tongued skinks, etc. That alone is reason enough for me.

As for health related matters, I wouldn't step foot in an Irish hospital, unless death was the only alternative. Swimming with disease, corridors choc-a-bloc with people on trolleys waiting for beds; people who, I might add, could be suffering from any number of things, and a Health System Executive that couldn't find it's arse with both hands.

No guns, though!
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Makeout Patrol

The argument that you need to have a gun in case some robber comes into your house for self-defense or whatever has never sat well with me. If your society is to the point where criminals are entering homes and murdering strangers, there are social issues at play that go much deeper than questions of gun control. A society in which that is a real fear is not a society that I want to be a part of. There's also the implication in this argument that your TV is worth killing someone over, which is absolutely repugnant. Buy insurance if you're worried about your stupid TV.

A gun - and particularly a handgun - is a tool that is designed to kill people. I think it's only responsible to want to keep it out of everyone's hands. Sure, criminals are going to get their hands on them, and they're going to use them... on each other. The threat of crime to ordinary people sure looks sexy on the TV news, but trans fats are a much greater threat to America.

Raggit

#26
Quote from: Makeout Patrol on Sat 28/06/2008 21:44:27
The argument that you need to have a gun in case some robber comes into your house for self-defense or whatever has never sat well with me. If your society is to the point where criminals are entering homes and murdering strangers, there are social issues at play that go much deeper than questions of gun control. A society in which that is a real fear is not a society that I want to be a part of.

But that's basically where we're at.  People are very distrustful of other people, and senseless acts of violence do occur. 

Recently, two young girls were shot to death along a lonely country road in Oklahoma.  In 2005, a co-worker of my dad's got drunk and went to his ex-wife's house and shot her in the throat with a shotgun.  A couple weeks ago, there was a gunfight in a neighboring town that's even smaller than mine where a man was shot dead in his apartment.   These are all things that are happening around me in what is supposed to be a small community rural area.  This is why I figure that if everybody else out there is going nuts with their gun, I should have one just to at least FEEL safer around these crazies.

A lot of people from other parts of the world say "in my country we don't have guns and it's better and safer that way," but in America, if you suddenly impose strict gun control laws (stricter than they already are,) people won't know how to cope with that or adjust.  Yes, guns are really that important to Americans, and they are the first thing that come to mind when you say self-defense.  I agree, a gun's only purpose is to kill, but I wouldn't use mine in that manner unless I had to.

I've also considered becoming registered to carry a concealed handgun.  Why?  Because of protection.  Do I need it?  Who knows.  But there are a lot of crazy mofos running loose in America, and as I've stated before, I've become less and less at ease.

I don't understand the American love affair with guns and ammo, but it has always been here and it'd be a major shock if all of a sudden they disappeared.  Would it be for the better?  Who knows.  It's one thing I can't imagine. 
--- BARACK OBAMA '08 ---
www.barackobama.com

InCreator

#27
Makeout Patrol, you seem like my post retold.  :)

Nice to see like-minded people at AGS (for a change).

QuoteA lot of people from other parts of the world say "in my country we don't have guns and it's better and safer that way," but in America, if you suddenly impose strict gun control laws (stricter than they already are,) people won't know how to cope with that or adjust.  Yes, guns are really that important to Americans, and they are the first thing that come to mind when you say self-defense.  I agree, a gun's only purpose is to kill, but I wouldn't use mine in that manner unless I had to.

I think it's too late for America.
Guns have become strong part of the culture, and this goes long way through Wild West to initial colonies. Even if government will try to limit firearms, it wouldn't probably work, nor take guns off the streets and homes.

And... isn't America at WAR right now?

But "in my country we don't have guns and it's better and safer that way" is really true, Europe is alot quieter and safer place. People kill people everywhere, but reading a newspaper story about some psycho killing someone with knife still isn't as disturbing as a kid gunning down entire class or anything else in that manner. Other weapons could seem lot more gross in context of crime, but body count in general should still be smaller, I think. If you're insane and have a gun, you're much, much more dangerous to society than one without.

Babar

You know, I've generally stayed out of this debate, considering that it is far removed and disconnected from me, and I'd have no idea about any conditions or situations or anything, but I'm curious about that last part. How would a gun give someone protection? It doesn't really protect you from other guns. In fact even more weird: How will carrying a concealed handgun give someone protection? Are there a lot of civilians in America who buy bulletproof jackets and wear them on a regular basis? Somewhere at the back of my head I seem to remember that some of those 'gangsta celebrities' wear them (didn't Tupac?).

Does the right to bear arms include swords? If someone had a big-ass sword always slung across their back, it would definitely work to block other swords (if you had training, I guess). And it'd look cool. Except it might be uncomfortable to have a sword with you all the time.
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Raggit

Quote from: Babar on Sat 28/06/2008 22:30:35
How would a gun give someone protection? It doesn't really protect you from other guns. In fact even more weird: How will carrying a concealed handgun give someone protection?

Babar, that's an excellent question.  Guns don't actually protect you from other guns.  I mentioned before that the best use of a gun is intimidation.  When somebody breaks into your house, ideally all you have to do is point it at them.  But it really depends on what kind of crook you're dealing with.  Is a petty crook who only wants your TV?  Or is it a psycopath who is jacked up on meth and is utterly unpredictable?

The same goes for carrying a concealed gun.  It depends on the circumstances, but it would be useful if you ever found yourself in certain kinds of trouble with crackheads/gang members/muggers, or any other kinds of people that lurk the streets of my quiet home town.

The problem is that these kinds of people really don't give two craps who you are or what you're doing.  If you look at them in the wrong way, they'll go off on you and try to start a fight.  You pull a gun on them, and they will hopefully back off, at least for a while until they can round up some of their buddies and corner you at another time with their own guns, knives*, chains*, icepicks*, or whatever they're carrying.

Bottom line: Everybody knows everybody else is armed in one way or another.  The goal is to be more armed than them.

*Have been used by drunken maniacs to threaten people I know 
--- BARACK OBAMA '08 ---
www.barackobama.com

Babar

#30
But then why have it concealed? When dealing with your crackheaded gang member muggers, shouldn't you wear a t-shirt with big writing saying "AK is OK" and having fat bulges in your jacket, and having a ammo belt around your shoulders? That should definitely scare away any crackhead gang member buggers you are dealing with, more so than just standing around looking innocent, until you suddenly see something wrong, and then whip out a pistol in an unstable, unsure, drunken maniac person's face? Isn't that what the crackheaded gang members do? Have a shiny handgun stuffed down their pants and a knife in their boots? At least that is what TV tells me: Bullet notches is rep :D. Look scary enough, and no one will mess with you.
The ultimate Professional Amateur

Now, with his very own game: Alien Time Zone

Pet Terry

Quote from: Raggit on Sat 28/06/2008 22:21:10
I've also considered becoming registered to carry a concealed handgun.  Why?  Because of protection.  Do I need it?  Who knows.  But there are a lot of crazy mofos running loose in America, and as I've stated before, I've become less and less at ease.

Wow.

A couple of weeks ago I was returning from a rock festival with my best friend. We had had a fun day and before going back home we decided to go to a pub for some drinks. We were staying at a smallish town near Helsinki and had been to that pub several times before, it's a nice rock pub with nice atmosphere and it has always been fun sitting there with friends.

We got our drinks and went to sit to an empty table in of the corners. Seeing that it was a Sunday night it wasn't very busy there, I think there were only about five other customers besides us. We had been sitting there for about 10 - 20 minutes when a group of three very drunk and loud men came in and sat to a table right next to us. I told my friend that of all the empty tables they had to choose the one closest to us and she agreed, she found it annoying as well. It was obvious that they would attempt to communicate with us sooner or later.

Yes. Shortly after the group had taken on that table they started asking me about my long hair and appearance in general. That's not something you hear often in a place like this (because most of the customers are long haired rockers) and usually I would come up with witty comebacks and stuff, but for some reason my instinct told me not to do that this time. So I tried to answer them as politely and briefly as possible and just ignore them as much as possible. Eventually the group was about to leave, two of them went out and one came to our table. He asked us if we had a problem of some sort and proceeded to lift his shirt, revealing a gun tucked into his pants.

(It's quite amazing how many thoughts can cross your mind when you're endangered. "That was it? This is the end?")

The guy then insisted me to come out and seemed like he was about to explode when I kept declining. Did he want to kick my ass or blow my brains out, that I don't know. But apparently he was really annoyed at my appearance and taste in music. Fortunately, he didn't lose his temper and just left, after which we told the bouncer who called police immediately. No one was hurt, but it was scary leaving the pub a couple of hours later and my friend had to go see a doctor a couple of days later because she couldn't sleep after the incident.

So... it shouldn't be too hard to figure out what's my stance on the matter? That incident was quite possibly one of the scariest moments in my life and only strengthened my opinion on handguns. If I had had a handgun with me, it wouldn't have made me feel any safer.
<SSH> heavy pettering
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Makeout Patrol

Quote from: Babar on Sat 28/06/2008 22:54:06
But then why have it concealed? When dealing with your crackheaded gang member muggers, shouldn't you wear a t-shirt with big writing saying "AK is OK" and having fat bulges in your jacket, and having a ammo belt around your shoulders? That should definitely scare away any crackhead gang member buggers you are dealing with, more so than just standing around looking innocent, until you suddenly see something wrong, and then whip out a pistol in an unstable, unsure, drunken maniac person's face? Isn't that what the crackheaded gang members do? Have a shiny handgun stuffed down their pants and a knife in their boots? At least that is what TV tells me: Bullet notches is rep :D. Look scary enough, and no one will mess with you.

The idea is that if you're going to mug someone, you're going to think twice if people are allowed to carry concealed handguns, because the person you're mugging might draw a weapon and shoot you. Of course, if this is to work, it also needs to be legal to shoot someone to death for trying to take your wallet, which, again, is despicable. Additionally, if you bring a gun into such a confrontation, you're instantly the biggest threat to the other gunman in the room, so if they're going to shoot anyone, it's going to be you.

Quote
Recently, two young girls were shot to death along a lonely country road in Oklahoma.  In 2005, a co-worker of my dad's got drunk and went to his ex-wife's house and shot her in the throat with a shotgun.  A couple weeks ago, there was a gunfight in a neighboring town that's even smaller than mine where a man was shot dead in his apartment.   These are all things that are happening around me in what is supposed to be a small community rural area.  This is why I figure that if everybody else out there is going nuts with their gun, I should have one just to at least FEEL safer around these crazies.

Yeah, but the co-worker was shooting someone he already knew, and without knowing the story behind the two girls we can't know whether or not it was a random act. If you feel like you need to buy a gun to protect yourself from your associates, it's time to get new associates; if you feel like you need to buy a gun to protect yourself from strangers, which the criminals-will-always-have-guns argument is premised on, you're either wrong, living somewhere that is run by organized criminals, or in the middle of a civil war. Random acts of violence happen, sure, but not especially often, and having access to guns makes the likelihood of being injured in an argument or accident much higher than the chances of being a victim of random acts of violence.

Raggit

Pet Terry,

Do you think that I would get a gun just to harrass people with long hair in bars? 

Makeout,

You can't always get away from bad associates.  They usually follow you, and these situations can pop up out of absolutely nowhere.  Here again, this may have something to do with Americans generally being on the edge 24/7.
--- BARACK OBAMA '08 ---
www.barackobama.com

Moox

I moved to Raleigh North Carolina last year to attend North Carolina State University. In the time frame of a year I have seen one shooting, two stabbings, and almost a dozen cases of robbery both armed and unarmed. Do I live in the ghetto? Absolutely not. In fact, my apartment is in a nice part of the city just minutes away from the state capital building. Basically what I am trying to get at is that American crime is much different than European crime. We can't rely on a piece of paper that says its illegal to own a gun to serve as a deterrent. We need something physical. I myself keep a knife in my pocket and a baseball bat in my backseat, the day I hit 21 I am also applying for my concealed carry permit.

Pumaman

Quote from: Raggit on Sun 29/06/2008 01:11:13
Pet Terry,

Do you think that I would get a gun just to harrass people with long hair in bars? 

I think you're missing the point here. Suppose that you had been in Petteri's position, sitting in a bar being challenged by a man with a gun. Now suppose that you had your gun with you, what would you have done? Accept the other guy's challenge to a duel outside and end up getting killed in the process? How would having a gun yourself have helped you?

Pet Terry

Quote from: Raggit on Sun 29/06/2008 01:11:13
Pet Terry,

Do you think that I would get a gun just to harrass people with long hair in bars? 

Y-yes?

No, of course not. I just thought I'd share my story, seeing that we're discussing guns here. As CJ said, I don't see how a gun would have helped me in that situation.
<SSH> heavy pettering
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Raggit

CJ,

If I was in Pet's situation and had a gun, I would've done exactly what he did.  I would've been polite and brief with him, and then ignore him.  When he came up to the table, I would've apologized for whatever I did that pissed him off and hope he goes away, and then call the police if needed. 

The gun isn't there for me to be mr. tough guy.  It's there when all else fails.

Moox,

I too carry a baseball bat in my car.  I don't have a knife, though.  I think you're right: American crime is much different from European crime.  I think it's because we're just a lot more violent and crazy.  Or something.
--- BARACK OBAMA '08 ---
www.barackobama.com

Pumaman

I still don't really understand in what situation a gun or baseball bat would be useful, as a law-abiding citizen. If somebody pulls a gun on you, you're not going to have time to draw your weapon because the chances are they'll have taken you by surprise. Equally, if you're being mugged, the attacker is likely to be too close for you to manage to grab your gun and aim and fire it. What's more likely is that your gun will end up in the hands of the attacker and will be used against you.

And in what situation would having a baseball bat turn out better than simply running away? If you were up against a gang of attackers, they'd easily overwhelm you and steal your baseball bat, and then probably beat you to death with it. On the other hand if somebody started threatening you with a knife, is it better to start a fight using your baseball bat and probably get your arm cut off in the process, than simply to run off? Are you strong and well-trained enough to properly wield a baseball bat and do some damage with it, rather than having it taken off you as you flail around with it?

QuoteAmerican crime is much different from European crime.  I think it's because we're just a lot more violent and crazy.  Or something.

I don't buy this. Sure, America does have more violent crime than Europe, but Europe isn't a crime-free utopia where people rob banks using sarcasm. London in particular has had quite a wave of knife and gun crime in recent years, but surely as InCreator says the best way to protect yourself is to learn some self-defence martial arts that might actually allow you to disarm an attacker -- rather than to have an ever-escalating arms race.

Disco

Well to be fair, Raggit did say it would be for intimidation purposes only. If I were walking around town and decided to rob some wealthy-looking driver of a nice car with my gun, I would think twice if I knew he baseball bat in his backseat :P I would run like hell.

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