Topic: We Have a *Fundamental* Problem

[evenwolf]

My brother has been visiting town the past few days so I haven't commented on this yet.   But I live 3 minutes away from a Unitarian church that a few of my friends attend.    I used to think about joining the congregation but now I have no choice.    I will be attending Sunday services due to a rather unfortunate set of events.   ( if you don't know I'm an atheist )



National News:  Gunmen Opens Fire on Unitarian Congregation during Children's Performance

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7529450.stm

Of all churches.... Unitarians?   There are thousands and thousands of Baptist churches in the area... but this one shimmering oasis in Knoxville had to be attacked? For their open-minded beliefs?

This man was under economic stress.   For years his disagreements with Liberals, resentment for his ex-wife's involvement with the church, (and most likely the rise of Barack Hussein Obama) fueled his fire to walk into a church where children were performing... and he opened fire with a shotgun.    He shot randomly, killed 2 members of the congregation.  Injured many others.

This church is a refuge for people in Knoxville who don't fit into the status quo here.    Gay men and women are accepted and encouraged to march downtown by the church.   In fact a teenager I knew when he was four years old organized his own parade and might have been the catalyst for this violence.   My other friend is a college professor and served as his mentor - helping him to organize the gay pride parade using the church.   

These are people whose liberties were ATTACKED in America by a man who was under financial stress.   And who hated the liberal movement.    My town is drowning in bigotry and the shadow of this event looms over me when I drive down my street on the way out of my neighborhood.   If there is any good from this, hopefully all the communities involved (Unitarians, gays,  Knoxvillians) will gain strength from this and learn to grow.



More links:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVKuteH2BW0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcLcUSsaXCA

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/07/29/tenn_church_shooting_victims_improving/

[Vince Twelve]

And to think, 15 years ago my parents left the Unitarian church we had attended for years because it wasn't liberal enough.  (I had stopped going to church all together a few years earlier because it wasn't atheist enough.) They changed to a Unity church where they had a gay pastor.  And of course protesters were outside that church every Sunday.  I went sometimes just to sneer at them as I entered.  Didn't they have... like... church to go to or something?

[Ishmael]

Churches are just trouble.

[Redwall]

When times are dire people look for scapegoats. The US is facing a perilous economic situation, a government that's so incompetent and brutal it's become nothing but a bitter joke, and (in the next decade or so, likely) the long-delayed fall of American hegemony. There's a lot of people out there screaming at the dark, hoping to blame everything on liberals, gays, blacks, Jews, whatever's an easy target (you said it: "people [. . .]  who don't fit the status quo"), whatever they can that's not themselves. I'm afraid this kind of thing is going to get worse before it gets better.

If I thought it'd do any good I'd pray.

[SSH]

Things are a bit calmer in the UK. Here's about as violent as it gets: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7504472.stm

Personally, I can't see how comments like "[All] churches are just trouble" are any different from "All gays are just trouble". You bigots are all the same...

[Ishmael]

Ok, let me rephrase. Christianity is just trouble.

[Redwall]

How about you get to the root of it: people are just trouble.

People are people. Christians aren't any different from anyone else, really, much as they'd like to be.

(Ironically, in my first post in this thread I was originally going to make a sarcastic comment about how clearly a gunmen shooting up a church is the church's fault, but I decided that you must have been being sarcastic in the first place, because no one would make that kind of blanket statement seriously. *sigh*)

[Lionmonkey]

How about you get to the root of it: people are just trouble.

Don't call me xenophobix, but I don't agree: Sapients are just trouble.

[evenwolf]

Things are a bit calmer in the UK. Here's about as violent as it gets: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7504472.stm

With regards to religious ceremonies?  Because I've been reading up on your country's increasing number of knife fight fatalities.


I see this man's attack on the local church as a fluke.   But the more fundamental people's beliefs get, and the worse they are doing financially I'd expect to see more violence over the next few years.  The precedent of opening fire at a congregation will hopefully not arise again any time soon.

[SSH]

The UK media's hysteria over knife crime is totally out of proportion to the problem. It's mainly confined to London, although probably the media hype will make it spread  :o

And Redwall is right: people are the trouble. Christians are no better than anyone else, but the point of "The Good News" is that they are forgiven...

[Makeout Patrol]

The UK media's hysteria over knife crime is totally out of proportion to the problem. It's mainly confined to London, although probably the media hype will make it spread  :o

This isn't a UK-specific phenomenon. There's a reason crime gets so much coverage in newspapers - it's easy to spin it so that it seems like violent crime is a danger to everyone (when in fact it is, for the most part, only a danger to criminals, depending on the lawlessness of your particular area), it's easy to get good pictures (which drive both newspapers and television news these days), and it's really easy to construct a narrative around (that is, it's easy to find a victim to promote sympathy for and an aggressor to vilify).

That said, it's true, desperate times call for desperate measures, and the more deranged people in the world may every now and then decide that blowing a few people away is the way to deal with things. Here in Canada, we just had a guy saw off another guy's head on a Greyhound bus. This sort of thing just doesn't happen in Canada.

[DGMacphee]

Personally, I can't see how comments like "[All] churches are just trouble" are any different from "All gays are just trouble". You bigots are all the same...

Ok, let me rephrase. Christianity is just trouble.

How about you get to the root of it: people are just trouble.

People are people. Christians aren't any different from anyone else, really, much as they'd like to be.

Fanatics are trouble.

[Oliwerko]

Positive.

You cannot tell that all people/all christians are trouble. But you can tell that most of the christian fanatics are trouble. There's nothing wrong with being a christian. If a person is bad, it has nothing to do with being of any faith.

I have one neighboring family in my house. They go to church every sunday. They pray. They do everything like "true" christians. But they don't help you when you need it. They won't say hello when you approach them and say hello to them. They look at you like you're an ape, because you don't go to their fucking church every single sunday and you don't sing their fucking songs every time. It's almost racistic. Are they wrong because they are christians? No. Christians are wrong, because the whole christian society consists of people like this.

You can be a hell of a good person which helps others, but someone keeps telling you that you are not a christian because you don't go to confessions, you don't go to church, you don't..... Christianity is not about how often you go to church. Christianity is about how you treat others.

Am I a trouble because I am a christian?

[paolo]

[snip]

I have one neighboring family in my house. They go to church every sunday. They pray. They do everything like "true" christians. But they don't help you when you need it. They won't say hello when you approach them and say hello to them. They look at you like you're an ape, because you don't go to their fucking church every single sunday and you don't sing their fucking songs every time. [snip]

You can be a hell of a good person which helps others, but someone keeps telling you that you are not a christian because you don't go to confessions, you don't go to church, you don't..... Christianity is not about how often you go to church. Christianity is about how you treat others.

[snip]

Well said. These people are church-goers, but they are not Christians. They can that they are all they want, but if they're not living up to the meaning of the term, they might as well be atheists.

[SSH]

I thought Christianity was about believing in Christ.

The trouble with saying "Oh well, but they're not REAL Christians" is that you very soon end up with a very small number of people who are REAL. Often excluding oneself (assuming that one wanted to be included).

[Oliwerko]

I believe that there are actually very few of the "real" ones. Not to mention that I may be also one of the masses that are not "real". But I do my best to be "real". That's all. For me it really doesn't matter in what you believe. Call it Christ, call it God, call it Budha, have 50 gods, believe in what you want, you still believe in SOMETHING. Or you don't have to believe in something. It's totally personal. The important thing is not to be evil. Everything's ok as long as you treat the world nice. That's my opinion.

[Redwall]

Labels are bullshit, tools of definition (which is to say division, which is to say valuation, which is to say bullshit).

Writing fanatics off as evil and the rest of us fine is making the same mistake they are.

[Ishmael]

There are actually only two religions in the world that have the concept of good and evil. I think the world would work better if people would believe in themselves and see how helping others helps yourself in the end.

[InCreator]

I never understood what point is to go randomly shooting **random** people. Especially kids. Why not lawyers or bankers or IRS workers or politicians? Because

1) you will get caught, and most likely shot
2) media attention drains quickly, it won't be news after week or two
3) It doesn't change anything*
4) You wasted bullets pointlessly, and your life, and uncountable other material and moral resources

* Sure, for the close ones of the victim, and of course, victims themselves, but hurting 1-20 people among 6 billion is not something that makes world spin other way nor solve problems

If I was sick, desperate, disoriented and crazy maniac and angry at power, I would act stealthily and commit big things. Like poisoning entire city water supply or something. Bring true terror. And never get caught. Maybe give a tip to the emergency so they'd resolve problem before anyone gets hurt, but still make everybody afraid and power figures appear weak and helpless. Actually, it shouldn't be poison, but a truck full of laxatives...

But then again, supervillains are getting out of fashion with that boring and pointless hunt for Ol' Osama.

This guy clearly has a screw loose. And it doesn't really sound like there's any religion behind this.
It's simple mental disorder.

Also, I agree that labels are bad. Communities? Churches? Gays? Unitarians? Christians? Linux users?
I see making a church, closing doors and singing there, preaching yourself "different" and asking others to join as an act of extreme isolation. This is first reason why I'm practical atheist. I don't want to be a part of the flock, because I am not a sheep, damnit. If I believe, I don't need separate house, a book and a fool in black clothes to confirm this and continuously rate how "good"(like it could be measured) "believer"(like it had exact definition) I am.

Aren't we, ehm, human beings? Isn't that "label" more important than other ones?

[Redwall]

There are actually only two religions in the world that have the concept of good and evil.

Ah yes, Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. Wait. (Of course, even beyond this, the question becomes: how do you define a religion? It's a label; it's meaningless.)

sick, desperate, disoriented and crazy

Those things generally preclude people from acting as efficiently as you describe. Also, most people in that condition are only looking for a visceral release, not a true solution (and usually want to die, too, so they don't really care about what happens afterward).