Topic: Using a Commercial Background Artist

[Jordan]

This post is half-question and half request really.

I'm not sure how many commercial games have been created with AGS or how many here may have worked on them, so I was wondeing if anybody here had any experience of actually paying somebody to create their artwork for them.

I've been working up what I think is a really solid game and fleshing out the details and it's getting to the stage where I'm wanting to take it further.

I'm practically useless at the art side of things, but I really want a high quality finish to the game which is why I'd need somebody else.  From looking around I've come to understand that high quality artists wouldn't generally be willing to work for free unless on their own private projects which is why I think a monetry incentive would be best (and thus why I'd want to release the game commercially to recuperate my losses !)

There is. of course. a bit of risk involved so I'm wondering about your opinions on the situation. 

Oh and if any artists are  actually interested in the idea, feel free to post or private message/e-mail me.  It's similar in tone to broken-sword though perhaps with slightly more humour.  Without giving away too much about the plot it's set in victorian england, but I've no particular preference in style.

[Ghost]

The Blackwell games, Super Jazz Man, Diamonds In The Rough, Al Emmo... those are a few commercial games made with AGS, and as far as I know they usually are "small team" projects. Bet one of the authors can give you a few tips here.

Before actually churning out money, however, I'd double-check if the game's worth it, or if you'd be better off asking for "average" free help instead in the Recruit A Team thread. Money, I think, always puts a certain tension on a project, and if you're relatively new to the whole shebang, it might result in loss of money and/or lack of game.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

Having been paid for my work on numerous occasions, I can only tell you that money is a great motivator for 'online' collaborations, and probably the only motivator that will see your game through to completion unless you are doing all of the work yourself.  I'm speaking of a game at or around commercial level, which requires a lot more effort invested than a casual design with modest graphics.  Selling your game will be a whole other load of trouble, though, because you'll have to decide on marketing, who to approach at portals to sell your game, whether you want a boxed/digital format (or both), copy protection, and a slew of other problems.  Make sure that's the road you want to travel before you go down it, that's my advice.

[Heromaker]

I've tried it a couple times, and it kept turning out badly.  My advice is, if you're going to pay an artist, you have to set deadlines right at the beginning, and crack whips over them.  I'm a really laidback, understanding guy, and I think that's what kept screwing me over.

A big problem is, at our level, we can't afford the $50/hr most really pro, fast-turnaround artists are going to ask for.  So we'll be stuck hiring talented amateurs for less money, and because they're amateurs, they're far more likely to start bailing out on you when the project is a few months old.

The problem I kept running into is the artist would start out strong at the beginning, producing to deadlines, but as months go on they'll lose interest and work slower and slower.  New projects interest them more, and your payments start to be not as important as the fact they're bored or worn out on your project.  Soon you'll be hearing "Don't send any more money until I catch up on the art I owe you, I swear I'm getting right on it!"  And then they never quite catch up, and since you're withholding payment as asked, they start thinking, "Well, the money isn't rolling in anymore, so I'll devote 0.5% effort to his work, and 99.5% to this other work over here that's just started paying me too."

That being said, sites like iFreelance.com are a good place to post ads with your project and cost requirements.  Just be ready to delete a lot of letters from companies that don't even bother reading your requirements (a lot of them seem to be from Korea, for some reason), and artists who look at your $500 firm budget, and demand $100 per background anyways.

Like the others said, too, consider the profit you stand to gain against your investment...talk to some other commercial game developers and find out how much they actually made back.  It's fine to pay for a labour of love, but it's even better to have other people pay you for it.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

The problem I kept running into is the artist would start out strong at the beginning, producing to deadlines, but as months go on they'll lose interest and work slower and slower.  New projects interest them more, and your payments start to be not as important as the fact they're bored or worn out on your project.  Soon you'll be hearing "Don't send any more money until I catch up on the art I owe you, I swear I'm getting right on it!"  And then they never quite catch up, and since you're withholding payment as asked, they start thinking, "Well, the money isn't rolling in anymore, so I'll devote 0.5% effort to his work, and 99.5% to this other work over here that's just started paying me too."

This is very true, but I also think it happens to everyone on all sides of development when it drags out for a lengthy period.  I've had lulls in creativity before, but I would never welsh on an agreement, nevermind a contractual one, as long as I'm being treated fairly.  When you're spending upwards of 8-10 hours a day just doing art assets, music, or animations, sooner or later you're going to burn out and need to take a break.  Productivity is always high at the beginning and the end of a project, with the middle dragging because it suddenly seems like a lot of work or a sense that the project won't be finished.  Slowing in the development cycle is natural, and sometimes brief breaks in the cycle are also natural.  You should definitely expect most people to have periods where they feel less creative, and forcing them to produce for you will usually yield less than stellar results.  As long as you planned the project with 'slack time' and your team is dedicated to completing the game you'll pull through. 

Obviously, if someone is just making excuses for no longer wanting to be involved it's a problem (and something you can usually spot quickly).  Once you find a few people that have proven to be reliable it's a good idea to stick with them or ask for referrals because it's really difficult to find good, reliable team members over the internet.

[Mods]

Money money money, must be (relatively) funny, in an AGS developers world.

Meaning, offer money = teh win.

 

[Snake]

Is there a guide somewhere on how to go about creating, marketing and selling your commercial game?

I've very interested in how this all works.

[Dave Gilbert]

Obviously, if someone is just making excuses for no longer wanting to be involved it's a problem (and something you can usually spot quickly).  Once you find a few people that have proven to be reliable it's a good idea to stick with them or ask for referrals because it's really difficult to find good, reliable team members over the internet.

Lemme just say that ProgZ is the most consistently reliable artist I've ever worked with.  Full stop.  Unfortunately, he's a rarity.

I've done about 5 commercial games so far (4 in AGS), and it's very hard to find reliable people over the internet.  When I first started, I burned through about a dozen background artists before I found folks that were reliable.  Even though I was paying them, there was often this vibe of "Oh, it's just an AGS game.  It's not like it's anything important," which wasn't acceptable at all.  Now that I've released a few more games, I've got a bit more clout, but when you're starting you are bound to encounter a lot of flake-outs.  

With a few exceptions, I do most of my hiring outside of the AGS community.  Not that there aren't talented people here (far from it), but AGSers are mostly hobbyists who do this for fun.  

edit:

Is there a guide somewhere on how to go about creating, marketing and selling your commercial game?

I've very interested in how this all works.

There are TONS, but there is no magic formula.  You are going to make mistakes on your first go-round, no question.   If you have any specific questions, your best bet is to contact other indie developers and ask them questions.  I know that I bugged Amanda Finch (www.amaranthia.com) and Jeff Vogel (http://www.spidweb.com/) ad infinitum when I started out.  We're always happy to pay it forward.

[Anian]

While we're around that subject of actually selling, is it worth it to say put the game up for free but make it a donation option (paypal ie) or pay as much as you like kinda thing? I
mean is that potentally better, because people will pay less than some price you would charge but download it more. Maybe, just maybe offer some extra content (and by that
I don't mean things like voice acting versions but something like developemnt documentaries or similar). I mean, it would have partialy it's own marketing, cause it would be on
professional level but free and that would spread ithe word over the net probably on itself.

If people sell their music albums that way, there's probably a place for that sort of things too. But you'll have to predict how many copies it sells so you'd know how much you can spend on aritsts.

And just as an unrelated statistic - a Valve's game Left 4 dead, which was sold over Steam and such for about 50 euros was made available for 20 euros a few months later (weekend
deal sort of thing) and in that weekend it got sold i more than 3 times as many copies as the opening week. And it's not just that game, there are some statistics that showed that more
copies of games are sold when they're at half price (or some other action) and that actually companies earn  even more money when they put them on sales like that. This is all on digital distribution, developers don't have that detailed information on store sales and such

[Jordan]

Thanks for all the tips guys.

I'd plan on selling it at a really low rate, I'm only interested in the game paying for it's own development, not in making a profit.

I think, for now, I'm going to press forward with it on my own steam and use whatever crappy artwork I can come up with for the time being so that if I do ever find an artist willing to collaborate they'll at least have something to work from.

[JpSoft]

About games with "make a donation format": You will probably get some donations if your game is good, but forgot to earn "real money" by this way.

A good option could be that the user download the game, but it is locked until they "unlock" it, purchasing the license in internet (AGS do not include support for this), so they could play the demo, get them interested and then they will pay if the game is good enouhg and they believe its a good entertainment option.

Imagine this: You donwload "The Dig" (TM) and play it until you explode the asteroid. Then, the game request you to buy the License to continue the game,and offers you the link to the page where he/she must pay. After the payment, you can provide a code to unlock the game to the player. How you can avoid that many players use the same code? Just including a random key generator inside the game, so any copie will have it owns key and, of course, it will work with only one code.

I believe that this is the best way to sell indie games.

Jp

[poc301]

I enjoy giving my games away for free, its fun having other people play something you created.. Get to tell a story for others to enjoy...  Something you work hours and hours upon and have people say, "Good Game!" or something like that.  (You hope you don't get, "That sucked!")

One option is to have a demo to download, and then a password protected zipfile for when people pay.

My thought on it though, is that unless you are REALLY GOOD and have clout in the community (like Dave Gilbert), its really tough to sell a game.

-Bill

[Mr Flibble]

worth paying for then there's no point at all. And again with the wishful thinking.

[Stee]

This is an idea I had for if/when I ever release a commercial game. I wouldnt mind any critique on what people think of this neither, would be good to know where i'd stand:

Have the design planned out first - things can be flexible but you essentially want the product finished in your mind/on paper. This way you have the puzzles, story, dialogue sorted out and know how many backgrounds you want (you can go one further by having placeholder images -quick sketches you've made to see how the game pans out. These sketches/concept art can then be given to artist so he/she knows the general feel of what you want).

Once you know how many backgrounds you want, lets say 50, you negotiate a contract like so.

50 backgrounds at x amount of money each. On completion of backgrounds you are entitled to x% of profits from the game/ x% of profits for the first x units sold.

You could also have something like failure to complete all backgrounds within timeframe (although rushing things isnt good) results in forfeit of contract and only being paid x per background each. It is then at my sole discretion whether I use any of your work in the project, of which any unused items are unpaid for etc...etc

Using this method should rule out all but the die hard artists.  It ain't a pretty way of doing things (it feels like the big man screwing the little man aka most record companies, new artists) but it should get things done. I'd hope. Otherwise I've wasted a lot of time.


Like I said though, jot everything out first, so the game is as good as complete when you come to employ artists. That way you know whether your actually going to stick to the project yourself. Also as mentioned previously theres no shame in throwing together a few shitty backgrounds as placeholder images just to get the feel of things. I heard this was done on Halo in some parts, before the final work was done.

[Radiant]

I know that I bugged Amanda Finch (www.amaranthia.com) and Jeff Vogel (http://www.spidweb.com/) ad infinitum when I started out.  We're always happy to pay it forward.

Hey, I didn't know you knew Jeff too. That's pretty cool, tell him I say hi

[Jordan]

It is then at my sole discretion whether I use any of your work in the project, of which any unused items are unpaid for etc...etc

It wouldn't be a bad offer, though I'd rethink that bit because that really is unfair !

[Anian]

That's interesting Stee, but  that could put off some artists cause they would be doing work and not know how much money they'll make at the end. Although it's good for you cause,
you'll stand not to lose much if the game sells poorly, so you'd have to balance carefully and depending on the artist. Plus you need to add to the equation the fact that not 1 artist will
be doing all of the backgrounds and also the fact that you need to agree right at the start on what will be the standards for approving/using the background.

But in the end, talking to people who have dealt with this issuses and who are willing to offer advice is far more substantial than this theories of ours.  

[Layabout]

My thought on it though, is that unless you are REALLY GOOD and have clout in the community (like Dave Gilbert), its really tough to sell a game.

Nope, wouldn't agree. Well not on the having clout in the community part. Of the 4000 registered members of the AGS forums, if Dave sold a copy of one of his games to 10% at $15, he would have made $8000 from them. I very much doubt even 400 of the community bought his games to be honest. Active members of AGS? Maybe 500 at a rough guesstimate. I would estimate maybe 150 members bought his games. The rest of the sales were through various game portals and reviews directing people to his site.

Why?

Because he makes very well written and executed games and he offers trials and/or demos of his games.

As for background artists, it all depends on the money on offer. Well written design document with accurate descriptions of all the backgrounds are a must when you are working with an artist.

Stee, depends on the artist really. Most would expect and advance, maybe 25%, then the rest when the work is done. Some will work for royalties, some won't. It really depends on the quality of your writing, their faith the project will actually be released, and their faith in you delivering on that contract. Programmer art is great, as the artist and programmer can work simultaniously, with the programmer not waiting for the art to come in. But it is a good idea to have a fair amount of work done on the project already, especially when you are embarking on your first commercial outing.

To the OP, reception is everything. Releasing a freeware game is a good way to judge whether you are talented at game design or not. You might think you are good, but there is no way to know until you release a game. Alot of money could be lost on your part if you aren't in fact a storytelling genius. Not saying you aren't, but I don't know. Neither does anyone else.

[Stee]

It is then at my sole discretion whether I use any of your work in the project, of which any unused items are unpaid for etc...etc

It wouldn't be a bad offer, though I'd rethink that bit because that really is unfair !

That bit is more the security clause in case the artist "-welshes" out on you (as progz put it  ) You have to bear in mind that different artists have different styles/expertise and so if you have one person doing all the backgrounds for you who leaves, then you have to find someone who can match that style or in some cases you may have to start from scratch. The backgrounds have to match up otherwise it looks out of place, which in turn can makes the game look tacky, losing the sense of immersion in it.

[J.H]

I'm currently looking into making a commercial game. I will have a demo up soon but I was wondering if anyone could help me with finding background artists? I'm willing to pay but I'm unsure where to ask?