A Moment of Your Time, Please.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

I think that there comes a time in every generation where we begin to find ourselves surrounded by people of power; people who believe that it is their right to tell you how to live because they obviously know what's best for you.  The whole 1984 racket.

Well, for many of my brothers and sisters here in America the past 10 years have been a hard uphill battle to maintain what freedoms we enjoy.  Some, perhaps many are unaware of this fight because they prefer ignorance to the realization that their government is no longer by them and for them.  Others will argue that these changes don't mean what protesters think, and then 5 years later realize the protesters were right all along because the defense of liberties is never a sin.

One such fight coming before America is the 'Combating Online Infringements and Counterfeits Act', and while it may sound innocuous, even patriotic and lawful in name, so did our disastrous Patriot Act.  In reality, the COICA (if one cares to read it) boils down to giving the US government an exclusive foothold into what content Americans (and not only Americans) will be able to access by way of literally erasing unwanted content from the internet.  Similar systems have been proposed in places like Australia (Clean Feed Filter) but they are waiting to see it succeed in America first, where opposition will likely be the most vocal.

If passed, this act will allow a panel of government appointed men and women to decide for you what is and is not objectionable material.  This goes way beyond anti-piracy, and any one who tells you different is either uneducated or a liar.  This is the foothold towards 'reining in the internet' as one Senator put it.  Point being:  the government dislikes the amount of freedom, whether it's to view things of a dubious nature or not, and this bill is all about control.

Make no mistake; they expect many people to fight this and will try to pacify them with promises that it will be used only for policing the internet for illegal material, but even that is an overreach in my view.  The US government does and cannot be allowed to wield exclusive jurisdiction on what is acceptable.

This is not a battle against 'illegal' behavior; there are plenty of agencies who successfully punish the guilty already.  This is about control and whether you'd rather the control remained in the peoples' hands or government's.

I know my choice.  Read this article and make yours.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-segal/stop-the-internet-blackli_b_739836.html

[SinSin]

This is just one more attempt to control us as a people, To be quite honest this is the reason I have dissapeared yet again. The Government, Banks and the world elite have really got to me over the last few months. I have being doing research into Cannabis Pros and cons, (The Pros far outweigh the cons), Whats in our water (did you americans know that Lithium is gonna be added soon) and I have been looking into the banking systems of the world they're all as corrupt as each other too. 911 is a big inside job too (do the research)..
  The worrying thing is this tho. A large percentage of the worlds population are happy in their living rooms watching Lost or CSI or whatever and as soon as someone like me or you comes along they simply turn around and say IGNORANCE IS BLISS.
the world as it stands progz is'nt ready to wake up and see whats happening, but soon it will be and as long as there are people like us there to help when the shit hits the fan then we should be ok ...   (quick answer )

[Ethan D]

Well, ProgZmax I totally agree with you that this bill presents the U.S. Gov't with the capability of censoring the internet of anything that they wish but at the same time we do have a very serious problem with piracy.  I am fairly sure that about 95% of America has downloaded or viewed something illegal at some point in their lives.  However, the main reason for this is because of our culture.  American culture on the broad spectrum believes that we should get what we want, regardless of whether it's legal.  People don't even really consider downloading music or watching a television show on a third party site as illegal anymore because of the vast number of people who do it. 

The problem presented to congress is that there are these sites that can quite legally get away with what they do.  For instance, Limewire (who's main source of business is illegal music downloads)  is a completely legal company.  Their plan is to offer only the capability to share materials and people jump on that and share music like crazy. (Which is illegal.)  The only people who use limewire who are at fault are the users and not the owners who make crazy money on the ads.  (Not to say that making money from ads is evil.)  My point is that this is a high volume market nowadays and it is not something that will go away by sitting back and watching.  The incentive right now is to do these illegal things, there is almost no deterrent.

Let me reiterate that I disagree with this bill on the principle of the level of control that it could give. 

However, (Assuming you agree that piracy is something to be taken seriously) what is your counter-proposal? 

Remember, piracy is not a right it is an infringement of a right.

[InCreator]

However, (Assuming you agree that piracy is something to be taken seriously) what is your counter-proposal?  

What? There's no way to fight piracy without controlling one end. If you want to let "control objectionable content" side loose, you'd better establish heavy control over quality of software/movies/music.


Because nobody's gonna buy this shit for the price it has now with the quality most of it has now.
I know I won't.

Music is 2-hits-and-end-the-band-garbage, games take patches and some more patches before they even start, software is so ridiculously overpriced, that we'd have 1% of graphical artists we have right now, would there no piracy. license of 3ds max costs my 2-3 monthly wages here, and probably couple times more in even less developed countries!

But consuming stuff is still beneficial for everyone. "Can't buy, screw you, so won't consume" will not do good in long perspective. New stuff sells due hype, and I think heavy majority of it is generated people who got it free. You'll bitch and moan until your parents buy you that new cool shooter game after everyone in the class has it, not when only those 1-2 richer kids (who could actually afford it!) have played and told about this. Masses move things!

Best way would be to deflate economy finally, balance out price vs. wage and rich vs. poor dilemma. Capitalism sucks!
Instead of mending holes, US Government, in it's holy wisdom, could develop more fair and workable civil system.

[Ethan D]

Piracy is only good for small developers.  I know there's no way to eliminate piracy without controlling something.  But the subject at hand is whether the government should have a group of people who decide what is considered objectionable OR perhaps if the government should pass bills to change it's laws so places like limewire could be shut down.

Besides you don't have to illegally download a game or movie to decide whether it's worth buying.  You could always read reviews.  THAT is your quality control.  Right now we don't have a very conscious consumer population.  We buy what we are told to by COMMERCIALS rather than doing research on actual QUALITY.  If it was much more difficult to illegally download material then people would just have to learn about the product in different ways and then buy them or not.  (I would expect an increase in research would also increase overall developer innovation.)

Best way would be to deflate economy finally, balance out price vs. wage and rich vs. poor dilemma. Capitalism sucks!

What do you mean by price vs. wage?

There will always be rich and poor, the only way to get rid of it is communism which is not a possible system considering certain factors such as for instance, humans being human.  All societies have examples of communistic or socialistic functions in gov't. (Welfare for example)  But no country can have a total communism or socialism.

Capitalism is amazing and terrible all at once.  I was having an argument the other day about whether America was the greatest country.  Someone said it was,  I said it wasn't.  My reasoning was that while we are the greatest in producing things and achieving that is not what makes a great country.  A great country in my book is one that allows freedom, upward mobility and happiness for its citizens.  Capitalism in the short run has done great things but in the long run it has created a national mentality that we do not have enough.  The average American lives his or her life ALWAYS wanting more, never satisfied and hating their political opponents.  Most countries have aspects of this but America is divided on every issue in a state that is almost becoming violent.  The interesting thing is if we did not have this must have more mentality and a deep seeded hatred for fellow countrymen we would not have achieved the level of activity which we have.  So, the question is, is it more important for a country to have happy citizens or productive citizens?

Instead of mending holes, US Government, in it's holy wisdom, could develop more fair and workable civil system.

How?

[Nikolas]

Because nobody's gonna buy this shit for the price it has now with the quality most of it has now.
I know I won't.

Then why want it in the first place?

Music is 2-hits-and-end-the-band-garbage, games take patches and some more patches before they even start, software is so ridiculously overpriced, that we'd have 1% of graphical artists we have right now, would there no piracy. license of 3ds max costs my 2-3 monthly wages here, and probably couple times more in even less developed countries!

Which is good or bad exactly.

Besides dissageeing COMPLETELY with your 2-hits-and-end-the-band-garbage and anything else you mention (which may apply to games but does NOT apply to music software, and music in general I have to say), there is this simply other issue.

Do you have absolutely any idea how many sacrificies I've made to get my software, my samples, my computers and everything? Just so that a little prick in his bedroom can come, download tons of GBs of samples and take my gig, by which I live my family, not fool around, by selling tracks for 10$ each?

Give me a break will ya? This is part of the reason any idustry is being destroyed!

But consuming stuff is still beneficial for everyone. "Can't buy, screw you, so won't consume" will not do good in long perspective. New stuff sells due hype, and I think heavy majority of it is generated people who got it free. You'll bitch and moan until your parents buy you that new cool shooter game after everyone in the class has it, not when only those 1-2 richer kids (who could actually afford it!) have played and told about this. Masses move things!

Best way would be to deflate economy finally, balance out price vs. wage and rich vs. poor dilemma. Capitalism sucks!
Instead of mending holes, US Government, in it's holy wisdom, could develop more fair and workable civil system.

It is (from their point of view) a fair system. If I, as a developer, have to spend $15,000 to create a software, plus rent, plus living expenses, plus tax, plus VAT, before I can even think of starting making the next one I actually need to make $30,000 in a short amount of time. Put that into perspective into how much you think it will sell. I mean even at $30 per item, you need to sell 1000 items!

Yes, the world is not a fair place, yes there are poor and rich, yes to everything. And yes I feel damn lucky to have been born under these circumstances... But it remains that every bit of defense on piracy comes down to bullshit! Like you need 3d-max to do your work (or Cubase, or anything like that for that matter actually). The open source, freewaree market is thriving, but you are the one moaning and complaining and bitching about prices and the problems of the poor vs rich.

(This is not actually aimed at InCreator... Just happened to grab his post and quote it. It's NOT personal).

ProgZ: I've heard these stories about the Internet since 2004 or so. With different means, like a 2 speed internet, where the blacklisted websites would crawl, whereas the better ones (the paying ones?) would be flying and so on... Yes it's very scarey, yes it's dangerous, of course it's about control, but I'm not sure I really believe it.

I mean in the first place, we're talking about the Internet and the act to take down freedom over it, and David Segal has an Internet petition to stop this?!?!? It does seem counterproductive to begin with you know...

Still I will agree that such a scenario would seem obnoxious, totally illegal from my part and in all awful. I just don't believe it's happening yet.

[Wyz]

I've signed this, even though I don't live in the USA I know this will affect other countries like mine as well. I believe very strongly that censoring is never a solution, history has proven this time after time.
Also, the whole piracy discussion is besides this topic! I'd like to comment on that but it would be off topic, so I won't.

[Intense Degree]

Yes, the world is not a fair place, yes there are poor and rich, yes to everything. And yes I feel damn lucky to have been born under these circumstances... But it remains that every bit of defense on piracy comes down to bullshit!...

Whilst I personally don't sell anything over the interwebs, I have to completely agree about piracy. There is simply no excuse for stealing something that someone else has made. I know people try and dress it up, but theft is what it is pure and simple. I'm sure we've all heard the Piracy arguments, "it doesn't hurt anyone, I wouldn't have bought it anyway", "I can't afford it", "it's overpriced", but none of these justify stealing, be it games, films, music, whatever.

It never ceases to amaze me that so many people will try and defend piracy with no argument stronger than "because I like it".

(Once again none of this is directed at InCreator! )

/offtopic.

[discordance]

On the other hand, every attempt to combat piracy so far has been sorely misguided. DRM is crap. Censoring the internet is much, much worse.

(Note me cleverly sidling back onto topic there )

[SinSin]

Piracy is good publicity.. however if i had worked on a program e.g Photoshop I would be pretty pissed if it was stolen.  Then again saying that.  Adobe and all these companies are making so much money why do they care, I tell you why... GREED   money is the root of all evil ..

[Radiant]

Yes, they tried something like this in Australia. There was a secret government-owned list of banned sites, and of course it was not possible for the general public to get something on it or removed from it, or even to know what's on it in the first place. But the government said to trust them, it was only used to block out child pornography.

Then the list was leaked, and it turns out that the majority of the list had nothing to do with child porn, and that several entries on it were essentially silencing people the government didn't like.

So the policy didn't get anywhere in Australia - for the moment, but they've started secret talks (not even involving the governments affected) to set up a similar policy in Europe. And now this, too.

No, you can not trust any government with this, and it is a sad day indeed when any western country is trying to implement censorship policies akin to the Great Firewall. And yes, such censorship can make a handful of wealthy people even more wealthy, so they'll keep trying.

Make Your Voice Heard.

[Calin Leafshade]

First lets get some terminology straight.

Piracy is not theft.

Theft is a criminal offence (as opposed to a civil offence) and deals with depriving someone else of their property.

Piracy is copyright infringement and thus a civil crime. The software developers/musicians/whatever havent *lost* anything they merely havent *gained* something.

Secondly, I dont agree with piracy but lets have a hypothetical thought experiment.

Suppose there is a song I have a passing interest in but not enough of an interest to buy the album on which the song features.
So I rip the song from a friends CD or they give it to me on a mix tape.

Who has lost anything in that situation?

I wouldnt have bought the album anyway so there is no lost sale.
My friend still has their copy.

Remember this is a *copy* of something so you cant apply the same argument to a brand new mercedes or a yummy chocolate bar.

[Radiant]

Piracy is not theft.

That definitely bears repeating.

We had an idiotic anti-piracy commercial a few years ago with an aura of faux-hip and pretend-cool, that spread the shocking message that "Stealing Is Forbidden". Well friggin' duh. I know some law grads who completely tore apart that message, because as you say piracy is not stealing.

Also, the music industry tends to assume that one million downloaded songs equals a net loss of the price those one million songs would have cost in a music store. Anyone who took Econ 101 should know how nonsensical that is.

What will they try next, sue random housemothers for a million dollars for downloading a dozen or so MP3s? Oh wait, they've already done that, too.

[Ethan D]

Calin, in your situation no one loses anything immediately.

However, this act of piracy contributes, however small, towards an overall disregard for the idea that piracy is wrong.  Now,  I'm not saying that if you go out and copy a song from a friend the world will become a cesspool of drugs and violence.   But just as with the issue of recycling, littering, or voting, a lot of people do these things.  A lot of people doing something creates a serious result.  

Now, whether you consider this small longitudinal harm as enough to deter you from pirating is something you would have to decide for yourself.  

[Radiant]

However, this act of piracy contributes, however small, towards an overall disregard for the idea that piracy is wrong.

That's completely beside the point.

Theft isn't murder. Both are wrong, but they are not the same. That means that (1) any rules or measures that reduce theft have little if anything to do with reducing murder, and (2) equating them in law gives ridiculous results: you don't want a murderer to get off with a fine, and you don't want a petty thief to face twenty years in prison or the electric chair. Neither of which changes the fact that both are wrong; there are plenty other things that are also wrong and that society responds differently to.

Now apply the same principle to "piracy isn't theft".

[Tuomas]

Why is all the shit in the world always directly related to one country?

[InCreator]

Haha, I have mysterious skill of provoking rage and "you're SO wrong choruses" while just honestly saying what I think...

Nikolas:
Piracy milks small-scale musicians/developers. Indies.
I agree that that kid sampling your shit will make your life difficult, but I'm quite sure that 4.1 million pirated copies of Modern Warfare only added sales from people who wouldn't had bought it otherwise.
I am guilty of this myself, I pirated it 2 days before official europe launch and only awe of game and wanting more of it (multiplayer!) made me buy it officialy via Steam also. It's relative.

Ethan D:
You are one of those fanatical anti-piracy preachers. I have nothing to say to you, because frankly, I hate anti-piracy radicals. Few years ago, if I'd say to my parents that I use money to buy software, I'd be shipped off to psychiatric clinic instantly... There was no way to justify something that can be gotten for free and is simply an algorithm to light up pixel on screen "I was looking at too damn much anyway".
Did I have to live my life honest, and never pirate? I wouldn't know a thing about video games, never gotten into using computer or music apart from what radio plays. Eastern Europe, ahoy! I figure I would be an alcoholic truck driver by now, instead of structural engineer. I guess nobody would give a shit, but ffs, I DO. So I steal and don't care really. It's for greater good.

Also, there are alot of ways better than capitalism, and that means not automatically communism.

How about a dictator, monarch, elected president, etc -- ruling with iron fist and making sure nobody gets too fat or thin? Simple. Everything can be controlled via laws and taxes, and with capitalism, people moving the stuff are capitalists, so no law will be made for their disadvantage.

Which is exactly what this thread is about. Is internet censorship in interests of US nation or greedy capitalists on the hill? I could bet my ass that majority of US nation are not relatives of Ethan D... So the question is way too easy to answer...

[Atelier]

Yes I agree this is wrong. If this happens, it will never be reversed. The government won't want to stop licking the sweet nectar of control. Moreover, what right do they have? Ok, the internet may be being used on their soil, or via their servers, but there's a good reason it's called the internet. It's an international medium, and nobody owns the rights.

@ Tuomas
Hoo, it may seem that way, but remember that a country's good deeds are seldom publicised.

[Calin Leafshade]

The argument that piracy does some good is redundant.

alot of crimes have positive outcomes (especially for the person who is doing the crime) but that doesnt mean we should legalise them.

Also the point about software being too expensive is not only irrelevant but also bullshit.

Photoshop Elements (which is perfectly fine for practically everyone who pirates PS) is about 60 which is about the same price that Modern Warfare 2 was when it came out.
It also comes free with alot of graphics tablets.

This line of reasoning is also invalid simply because the open source community has pretty much got you covered for everything:

Open Office instead of Microsoft Office
Bluefish instead of Dreamweaver
Paint.NET instead of PS
Audacity instead of Wavelab (although in my opinion audacity is seriously lacking)
Kino instead of Premiere Pro
Ardour instead of Cubase
ASE instead of Graphics Gale (yeah inorite)

Paying for software is pretty much not needed now unless you are a pro, in which case you are morally obliged not to leech off other peoples software.

[LimpingFish]

The amount of power the entertainment industry is trying to exert on our personal freedoms literally physically sickens me. When you have Bono saying that ISPs can and should filter what people can and can't access because, hey, it works in China, it makes you want to punch him in the face.

None of these industry-led ideas are about fighting piracy. They're about handing these entities total control over what you can view and what you can listen to, depending on your wallet size, to an insane degree. They're about erasing the concept of ownership. They're about the ability to remotely disconnect you from the world, should you step out of line.

That we now have governments trying to gag free communication of ideas and opinions, is just another nail in this particular coffin.

Excuse me while I vomit.