Topic: [MP3] Symphony - Dramatic/Epic

[DoorKnobHandle]

Hey there,

after years of being on the lookout for means to get a decent sounding orchestra VST I finally got myself Edison Orchestral - using it with Fruity Loops 9 XXL currently and it seems to do its job pretty damn well. Anyways, one sort-of-classically-arranged idea I always had lying around, composed as a MIDI, fell victim first and I made a real recording of it. I believe it actually was for a Tune Contest years ago and yes, it is supposed to sound as (melo-) dramatic and epic as possible pretty much.

Keeping in mind I have very little knowledge about real orchestra arrangements and stuff I'd like to know (a) what you guys think and (b) what I can improve, please! :p


Streaming link, just open it in a new tab or window and it'll stream in the background by itself. No need to download!

Oh and before I forget, it is not an entire symphony quite yet... More like two minutes work in progress haha.

Cheers!

[DoorKnobHandle]

I'll bump this one time (and only once) as it's been 48 hours without feedback.

What's wrong? Is there a technical problem? I know a handful of people have tuned in, were you able to listen to the piece? Is it so bad that nobody wants to say something? Or is it so good that nobody HAS to say something (or consider themselves worthy for giving critique)? Or is it just not 'spectacular' enough for somebody to care enough about?

I wish for constructive criticism but even if you have no idea about music I'd love to know where I stand. Is this enjoyable and good? Or don't you like it maybe? Anything!

[Sephiroth]

Hey,

I'm not a composer, so I won't be able to give you technical input, but since you don't mind comments I guess I could say this is really nice, it starts slowly, like some classical piece, then switches to a more adventurous/heroic pace in the second half ( is that what you call crescendo?). I could really feel some kind of oldschool rpg in this (it may be just me) especially when it switches at 1.15, lovely.

I just thought maybe the overall sound output in the second part is a bit too clear/sharp, nothing to do with the volume but this is just so I can find something to say

To be continued I guess, you've got a really nice 2min track, if you can get a good finish it should be awesome.

PS: I wouldn't have posted here because I don't think I could give relevant advice, but I realise music composers may find it harsh not to receive comments, it's a shame because I'm sure custom soundtracks are really appreciated and sometimes can make some titles Epic.

[DoorKnobHandle]

Hey, thanks for the warm words! I like how you described the second part as adventurous and old-school RPGish as that is pretty much what I had in mind.

I'm not quite sure what you mean with the sound output of the second part being too clear/sharp, I'm afraid, could you elaborate a little bit?

And thanks for posting an opinion even without being a musician, it helps a lot to get feedback from non-musicians too.

[tzachs]

It's a nice piece, I liked it.
I liked that you took the same theme/motif and made variations both in the first and second part, and you did that rather well.
However, I feel that maybe that theme in itself is not strong enough. It's ok, but it's not a highly melodic tune that will stick in your mind after hearing it. It may be down to a matter of personal preference, but for me at least, since it's only composed of half notes and nothing more, it's not memorable.

I liked the transition between the classical part and the epic part. The epic part is much more interesting than the classical part, and I suspect you worked on it a bit more. It seemed that the classical part itself was pretty static, and I'm mostly talking about the volume. Even subtle changes to the volume (which make sense in the context of the piece) can make a whole lot of difference.

[Chicky]

I liked it dkh, i feel that the single instrument at the start is a bit lonely and needs a friend.

Also, it sounded pretty ace when it all kicked in, like riding into Narnia on a dolphin.

[Eigen]

I like the piece has a whole, but for me there are few tweaks to be done in the sound. What bugs me the most, is the sound of the snare drum or what's it, I think it sounds a little to wooden, almost like the MIDI taiko drum. I think you should soften it somehow to make it sound less like hitting a piece of wood. The second thing is the timpani roll or something like that near the end before the part where drums come in more. I really like what you're going after there, but the timpani could definitely use some reverb, so it wouldn't fade out so quickly. Think of thunder for that part.

Also, I was listening to the song with my headphones and the strings on the right side sound a little too quiet, especially when compared the instruments on the left and the brass. Take a look at the waveform and I'm sure you'll find the left side is dominating the song. Fix the mix

I hope these comments help you in any way. Now go finish the whole thing because I like it

[Tabata]

...even without being a musician, it helps a lot to get feedback from non-musicians too.

I'm no musician (so be warned), but since you also wrote the quoted above, I'll try it: It seems to me, you are on the hunt for something like Requiem For A Tower

[Sephiroth]

Hello,

When I was saying the sound in the second part was too clear/sharp, I meant I first thought the volume was too high, but then I realised it was either the first part which had low volume, or the second part being too "sharp". I'm not english so it's a bit hard for me to describe this, but the sharpness I'm talking about is like when you move the 16khz slider in media player mixer,(treble?) it gets sharper when you tune it high, this is how it appeared to me, but I may be wrong and this is no major issue

[DoorKnobHandle]

@tzachs: Thanks. I'll definitely change up the note velocities a bit more, kinda forgot to do that in most parts. Good ears you got to pick up on that! The lack of rhythmic variation in the epic part is indeed working against it being a memorable melody but that is a stylistic choice, the long notes add tension and drama that would be lacking with shorter rhythmic bursts. I'll make sure not to write every song using these note lengths though, that would be bad.

@Chicky: Haha, thanks. I could have started the song out 2 bars later I guess, dunno, the single instrument beginning made it sound a bit more classical to me I guess. And riding a dolphin into Narnia is an epic analogy!

@Eigen: I'll give your sound and effects tips a try for sure, sounds like it all makes sense. To me the timpani and orchestra kit bass drum hits (I assume you refer to these when you say snare drum?) don't sound very wooden but I could definitely tweak their sound some more, maybe add in additional layers and such. I did actually mix the song using headphones as well as a 2.1 speaker system and it did sound balanced stereo wise to me but I'll do it again and, with the premise that the left side might be too loud, see again. I suspect these things come down to audio equipment quite a bit and my headphones aren't the very best I'm afraid.

@Tabata: I didn't know that song was called Requiem For A Tower but yes, that kind of modern classical-meets-epic film or video game music style was exactly what I was going for, I'm glad it sounded like that to you! The points you made were spot on (and in music, there really is no wrong, much less then in drawing for example) so thanks a lot for sharing your opinion, it does help. And I will make sure to post the next version here for you people to check out!

@Sephiroth: I see, the song should not get too loud (these things also are heavily impacted by your speakers/headphones) but there is a lot of dynamic in the volume levels - the first part is very quiet in comparison to the second one. If this were pop music, the levels would be compressed so that they are equally loud (this catches the most attention on the radio for example) but in classical music it is very common to have these huge changes in volumes over time. One of the reasons why classical music experts are always audiophiles and have the most expensive sound systems. I'd like to hear more people's opinions on this, though, is there any distortion in the song, any times where it starts to sound too loud? Or is the first part really uncomfortably too quiet on your sound setup?

To everybody, it took some time for you people to get started posting but now I'm extremely happy with the turn-out! You are helping and have already helped me a great deal, thanks a lot!

[Sephiroth]

I usually never change my mixer settings (for this kind of music), I don't think the second part's volume is too high, and after listening to it a few more times I think what bothered me  was the sound of the instrument itself (in the second part), like it's slightly saturated on the highest notes. But I'm no expert and it already sounds great to me!

[Nikolas]

Hey dkh,

Here's my feedback to your track (and your production, and mixing, etc).

First of all, sadly the Edirol orchestra is far from decent nowadays. Not with the products out. Just so you know. And FL is not the best sequencer to be doing such music. Just some general ideas.

_______________

Now on your track.

The main theme and the melodic and harmonic ideas are sufficient enough and should work rather well.

What is not really working (in terms of classical music, so... :-/ ) is the orchestration. For the first half of the work you have the strings playing 'pad' chords. Like one hand was playing the chords. Normally an orchestra would have much greater diversity in their orchestral strings. Like arpeggios, or other ideas. The melody, similarly remains 'unchanged' in timbre for most of the time. Your choice of reusing the same instrument is not really working.

When you are entering the epic part, it does offer a glimpse of your intentions, but not much else. The trumpet (?) is playing the melody and there's some percussion (timpani?), but the rest is again uninhabited. There are so many things you could be doing. Doubling the strings with some other instruments playing alternative patterns, reenforcing the bass with some tuba or trombone, adding some cymballs or gongs. Plenty of options.

I hope you understand I'm trying to offer some constructive feedback, rather than just saying "Oh nice" (which has not been the case thus far in the thread!), and I'm not after hurting you or insulting you in any way!

Nikolas

[DoorKnobHandle]

Nikolas, I'm very happy you replied and I think your feedback is amazing. I was kind of hoping you'd reply because I know you are a genius at this kind of stuff but I also knew you weren't around much anymore on these forums!

First of all, sadly the Edirol orchestra is far from decent nowadays. Not with the products out. Just so you know. And FL is not the best sequencer to be doing such music.

I absolutely agree. As a DAW I just really like Fruity Loops (not an Ableton or Cubase fan, only like Pro Tools better) so I think I'll stick to it for the nearer future, but what would be better orchestra VSTis? It's all a matter of price/'availability'.

What is not really working (in terms of classical music, so... :-/ ) is the orchestration. For the first half of the work you have the strings playing 'pad' chords. Like one hand was playing the chords. Normally an orchestra would have much greater diversity in their orchestral strings. Like arpeggios, or other ideas. The melody, similarly remains 'unchanged' in timbre for most of the time. Your choice of reusing the same instrument is not really working.

When you are entering the epic part, it does offer a glimpse of your intentions, but not much else. The trumpet (?) is playing the melody and there's some percussion (timpani?), but the rest is again uninhabited. There are so many things you could be doing. Doubling the strings with some other instruments playing alternative patterns, reenforcing the bass with some tuba or trombone, adding some cymballs or gongs. Plenty of options.

These are excellent points, I'll see what I can do. By the way, I remember an awesome article you wrote, I was able to find it again but the link was broken, where you explained a lot about orchestration. Does that still exist somewhere?

Once again, thanks for replying. I love each and every simple "sounded nice" response but yours helps me even more!

[Something13]

Nice piece! I really like how the long brass notes with drums in the background make it seem pretty epic. I have just a couple of things that I would suggest changing.

I agree with the fact that the first part is too static (since that's the word they've used for it). It isn't that the beginning is bad as a piece of music. I actually really like it. However, I don't get the impression that of it being either epic or dramatic once it is the oboe and other instruments (but no brass yet). For me I think the problem might be in the background stuff. You have some motion in the background, but its sorta neutral motion. It isn't quick or slow enough to really affect emotions. My guess would be that if you made the background simpler (more long notes) it would sound more dramatic and/or epic.

Also, I personally don't like the oboe eighth notes in the brass-y epic section. Its not that it sounds bad, but I just feel that it takes away from the epic feel that you have built up all around it. I think you would get the affect you're looking for if you made the oboe a little softer there and had it play 16th notes.

I hope I didn't come across as sounding mean or harsh. These are just my humble suggestions for your piece, feel free to completely ignore them if you like!

[DoorKnobHandle]

No worries, those are some excellent suggestion as well, Something13. I'm fighting for time to actually spend on the piece at the moment but I will update once I get some progress done based on all the feedback.

In the meantime, one big question I'm still having (mostly directed at Nikolas): What are some more up-to-date and better sounding alternatives to the Edison Orchestral VSTi I used?

[Nikolas]

In the meantime, one big question I'm still having (mostly directed at Nikolas): What are some more up-to-date and better sounding alternatives to the Edison Orchestral VSTi I used?

Sorry... forgot to reply to this...

It largely depends on your budget, I'm afraid.

In terms of 'full orchestral packages' there are a few options available (ascending price):
GPO: Garitan Personal Orchestra. A starting package with not so great a sound, but very cheap and user friendly.
EWQLSO: EastWest Quantum Leap Symphonic Orchestra. Comes in 3 different packages: Silver (not sure if this exists anymore), Gold and Platinum. Full orchestral sounds, full libraries, full sound, excellent value for money.
VSL: The Porsche of the sample libraries. Hugely expensive, the full package must be around 10,000$ (!!!!!). 'true legato', lots of velocity layers, weird instruments, everything is there.

Now for more individual choices there are other companies, which provide a wealth of options.

LASS: Los Angeles Scoring Strings. Strings alone, an AMAZING product, that sound brilliant.
HW: Hollywood strings. Another amazing product that sounds FABULOUS. Downside is that it's huge (270 GB I think).

For choirs there's:
EWQLSC: EW QL Symphonic Choir. Able to sing letters, albeit not very good, but still great sounding.
VOXOS: Something like the above, brand new, and btw our own Greg Schlapfer (Gregjazz, or Geofkhan over here), did the recording and programming of that!
Tonehammers' Requiem: Another amazing library for choirs...

For pianos there's also a wealth of choices:
Garritan Steinway: While GPO is not exactly good, this piano is AMAZING!
Ivory: v2 took the standard WAAAAY up the top. Brilliant piano (a little buggy though)
QL Pianos (quantum Leap pianos): One of the best choice, again HUGE in size.
pianoteq: The tiny package of around 20 MBs (!!!!), is based on physical modelling methods (a synth basically, which models real pianos, but does it REALLY good).

In general there are tons of other choices. Here's an idea of some pros talking about this very issue: http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21342&start=0

Hope this helps, although you'll have to google the names yourself, I'm afraid...