Topic: Dreams - Pub Master Quest

[Ghost]

Games do not need challenge to be games, freeware games do not need to be released in a polished state, stories do not have to be fully explained and complete.

I fully agree with #3; a story that has white spaces can be even better than a fully explained one.

As for #1 and #2, I disagree. A game without challenge may still be a game, but has a pretty high chance of being dismissed as boring, and a boring game is quickly forgotten. An unpolished game is guaranteed to be remembered for its flaws, and if it is a very unpolished game it is ONLY remembered for the flaws. So a not-challenging, unpolished game IS a game, but I think a designer wants to deliver a GOOD game.

Personally I had few issues with this one, Icey. The graphics very nice (though really VERY reminescent of Ben's style, but there are worse styles to draw from ), and I rarely object to ripped music.
I was disappointed that you didn't really focus on the premise. In the end this is a game about Dave, and the girl is nothing but a throwaway hook. There'd been a lot of room for more, since the setup is a bit more serious than the average OSD. I see this as a step into an interesting direction, but a hesitant step. Still, way to go!

[Sane Co.]

I use more brain power sleeping. But on a more serious note, you should expand the gameplay, an example would be; not telling the story, showing the story. There would be a lot more content, if you had made the introduction as part of the playable game. But first you need to step away from the game for a few days, come back to it three or more days later and play through the game. This will make it easier to find grammar, spelling mistakes and the like.
Keep working.

[WHAM]

Harsh much?

But, spell checkers are a necessity as far as I am concerned and one would of spotted most of these errors.

It is spelled "Barren"

Games do not need challenge to be games, freeware games do not need to be released in a polished state, stories do not have to be fully explained and complete.

So if I make a video of a bunny jumping up and down shouting randomly generated nonsense, with the bunny stopping every now and then, forcing the viewer to push the "play" button to continue, that would be a "game" in your mind? Oh right! I forgot: we must make the "play" button MOVE AROUND THE SCREEN! Now that's a game, and because it's free it's completely immune to critique!

[wisnoskij]

So if I make a video of a bunny jumping up and down shouting randomly generated nonsense, with the bunny stopping every now and then, forcing the viewer to push the "play" button to continue, that would be a "game" in your mind? Oh right! I forgot: we must make the "play" button MOVE AROUND THE SCREEN! Now that's a game, and because it's free it's completely immune to critique!

Yes, if someone wants to call it a game.
Dear Esther, 99% of Portal 2, most non action HL mods, visual novels. These are all games that have less gameplay then Pub Master quest.

[icey games]

Never said you comment WHAM but goddamn it this what you do. I don't appreciate harsh criticism. Everyone has basically said the same thing but all in a different way. You talk about my games being simple or not even a game at all and wonder when I'm gonna make a real game but when are you gonna realize just how I work my self so you can get through to me better?

Look at you, you think you got it so damn hard, Sure we may not really be friends but I don't see you ignoring me either, I all ways like when people comment because it helps not just my games but me  as a developer. All I'm saying is it would be swell if you could say something a little less direct.

[Ghost]

Dear Esther, 99% of Portal 2, most non action HL mods, visual novels. These are all games that have less gameplay then Pub Master quest.

Define gameplay, please. I smell an interesting discussion.

[wisnoskij]

Define gameplay, please. I smell an interesting discussion.

Challenge, choice.
Obviously watching a cinematic is not gameplay, but I would argue walking down a corridor is not really gameplay either.

[Ghost]

Define gameplay, please. I smell an interesting discussion.

Challenge, choice.
Obviously watching a cinematic is not gameplay, but I would argue walking down a corridor is not really gameplay either.

Okay, so you say games do not need challenge to be games.
And gameplay is challenge.
So games do not need gameplay?

Can we agree on interactivity? The good old trio "choice, problem-solving, coordination"?

[edit]
I think I know what you mean and where you are coming from. Maybe interactivity is the best term, and interactivity needs coherence. A player wants to understand what he does, it's just more satisfying. Consequences to actions can be a bit foggy or mysterious, but sooner or later you want to know why a pony appeared after you stomped on the banana while wearing a top hat. And that's where "Dreams" is weak. The rule is "click on things to remember things". But a) the things you remember are all about yourself and have nothing to do with the girl, the dream world, or anything present. and b) you do it four times. There is a logic and there is interactivity, but hardly any control. The result is a feeling that I clicked on four things, not that I figured out something.

[WHAM]

Icey: As long as you post these "games" I and many others will comment on them, discuss them, analyze them and critisize them. If you don't like that, don't post them here.

wisnoskij:
Portal 2 is a game and has gameplay mechanics and puzzles to resolve, so I don't see why you brought that up at all.
Dear Esther is not, in my mind, a game. It is a slightly interactive story.
So are many visual novels, though in those you can at least affect the outcome so they DO have a gameplay element. However, here the answer is already present in the name of the medium: "Visual Novel" that is "a storybook with pictures". I see nothing about gameplay or interactivity here, so I would not necessarily call them games.

Then we compare THIS game by Icey here to those. What can I affect? Nothing! What do my actions change? Nothing!
This IS a cinematic that just requires the player to click on the next "play" button until it finishes. There doesn't even seem to be any order to them, you just CLICK ON STUFF.

In my mind gameplay requires thought. You need to understand the game to win it. I could code a program that just clicks on the screen mindlessly and endlessly and it would always "win" this game 100% of the time. Such a thing would not work and any REAL game.

[Peder Johnsen+]

Icey, just have your games beta tested. I bet there are many people on these forums that would gladly beta test your games and help you find any bugs/spelling mistakes etc. You're better of spending an extra month having your game tested and fixed up than releasing an untested game. Wouldn't you just love to finally release a game and the first 10 comments all being positive not mentioning any bugs or spelling mistakes?

Don't try to be Ben, use more time on your projects. I'm sure you will enjoy it a lot more and I'm sure more people will like your games if you spend more time on them!

Hell, why not even team up with some people? You'r art seems to be improving a lot. If I managed to do art like that I'd keep practising trying to get better and focus on art.

[wisnoskij]

Icey: As long as you post these "games" I and many others will comment on them, discuss them, analyze them and critisize them. If you don't like that, don't post them here.

You are coming off more as a personal enemy then a critic in this thread.

wisnoskij:
Portal 2 is a game and has gameplay mechanics and puzzles to resolve, so I don't see why you brought that up at all.
Dear Esther is not, in my mind, a game. It is a slightly interactive story.
So are many visual novels, though in those you can at least affect the outcome so they DO have a gameplay element. However, here the answer is already present in the name of the medium: "Visual Novel" that is "a storybook with pictures". I see nothing about gameplay or interactivity here, so I would not necessarily call them games.

OK, it is fair to say that interactive stories are not games, but "not a game" does not need to be a derogatory term.
But personally game, to me, game means any interactive thing.

And I disagree, I am not sure if Portal 2 has any real puzzles. 99% of portal is cinematics and walking down corridors to the next cinematic. 99% of the remaining gameplay can be solved with this simple algorithms:
Find the two portal sized light coloured sections of wall, shoot portals at them, go through the closest one.
The remaining 1 or 2 "puzzles" can be solved using this algorithm:
Or the perhaps 5 important possible areas to place portals which one is the only one that both changes the situation and does not regress the situation. Place a portal here, go through and repeat.
At no point do you have to understand the "puzzle" or understand how you are progressing.
IMHO

[icey games]

I will continue to read cause I'm not finished with Ghost's post. The reason I have the player remember who he is, is so he can help the little girl. You can't cast magic or remember how to escape if your have no memory of the exit correct? Another reasons it's four times and cause I wanted to find a way to incorporate Christen, Muffy , & Tifa. Friends help each get succeed in life at times. But that's only 3 friends so why 4 times? You can't get help from others until you take the time to help your self. One of those questions is him helping himself. The 4 fragments help past together his memory which is tagged to his name.

Then we compare THIS game by Icey here to those. What can I affect? Nothing! What do my actions change? Nothing!
This IS a cinematic that just requires the player to click on the next "play" button until it finishes. There doesn't even seem to be any order to them, you just CLICK ON STUFF.

@Wham: I now kindda understand where your coming from. It's more like a controllable cutscene. Which may not be a game in a whole but would rather be a nice touch in full game. But again I don't think I mentioned this but most short games I make are just for me to see how I can perfect something or add something in a full game such as AGS Colosseum or Pub Master Quest Legends. The only thing though is these test games become so important to me that I end up turning them into real games. Most of them I haven't released but still I have released a good hand full. OceanSpirit Dennis was the first game I made to help me develop a RPG even though it's seems impossible cause now I'm a the limits of room objects. But still each game, RPG or not has gave me new ways to develop something better or just simply add something better. I mean I wen't from using scores to int's, and instead of Dave move to set position I can use X,Y. So with that being said, these games may at times pull my rep down but in distant future it will grow 10 fold with the a awesome game like AGS Colosseum

Which maybe going on Steam when it's finished latter this year from my last conversation.

@Peder: I really admire Ben's work for some reason, I guess they pull me in leaving me wanting more. Like Square with Final Fantasy. Sometimes I feel the need to make a "look a like game" Like Project 304, OSD Last Boss & 99% Famous, and Dreams. It's also so I don't lose the Skill & so I can prefect it cause everyone knows how hard Ben's style is but I guess I use his style because it just seems a bit cool to me I guess.

[Ghost]

So with that being said, these games may at times pull my rep down but in distant future it will grow 10 fold with the a awesome game like AGS Colosseum. Which maybe going on Steam when it's finished latter this year.

But has it occured to you that a reputation is EASY to go down, and very HARD to go up again once it is low?
I may be extreme in my view that a reputation as "maker of good games well worth the download" must be earned by making good games (which are well worth a download), though.

It has been said already: You have come some way, and you have improved your graphics. Everything else, however, is an endless repetition of the same issues: No testing, only taking advice you like (and even that is usually ignored), and acting as if every critic is out there to get you.
Dreams is something of a signature game because it HAS potential and WASTES a lot of it. It's not ugly and it is not broken, both of which are good things. it is also a very small and limited game, but that isn't necessarily bad. But if you once again just turn heel and whip up the next game without ever, ever listening, well, the next thread will be a carbon copy of this one, which is already a carbon copy of the last one. Get my point?

[edit]
And what Radiant said- Red is hardly an original character, so it's fair game, but don't link to Once Upon A Crime, then, please.

[Radiant]

AGS Colosseum
Which maybe going on Steam when it's finished latter this year from my last conversation.

Hold it.

I have not given you permission to make money using Crystal Shard characters from a freeware game. If you intend to go commercial with AGS Colosseum then I must request that you remove all content related to A Tale Of Two Kingdoms from your game.

[icey games]

@Ghost: Yeah I get what you mean. I really mean that too.

@Radient: I hope everyone who is evolved in this project in the littlest of ways is listen. AGS Colosseum is yes up to me where I wan't to take it but I am only putting it on steam for one reason. growth. I need money to help make the game grow. There is so much more I can do with this game if I just had the money. I wan't to be able get people to help me fix up all aspects of this game. Sound effects, voice acting, um graphics like effects, adobe after affects skills, and 3D cutscense made with something like maya or blender. There are people on the forums willing to help but let's be honest. Times are hard and most people require if not non then and at least a bit of money. I don't have the skills for everything when it comes to this game. I don't plan to use any of the money for myself but rather only towards the game further development of the game. Cause I'm telling you know that this is gonna be on e big growing game. There will be many more AGS characters added later on as I have already planed how I would fit them in with game story.

Also each AGS world has there own type of story for example

In Technobabylon world, The player must go inside the core system computers to remove a virus that is effecting the worlds defense system causing robots to attack random people. But how did the Virus get there in the first place? In Scavenger's world, Jacob's and the other cyber punks create a small virus which would grow over time. They implanted this virus into the world of Technobabylon.

It adds a bigger connection in the game to make the story more detailed and gives the player a much more to do cause with out stuff like this and quests the story would be way to linear. People like a lot do while still being able to complete the main story. Side stories is what they're called.

If you require some revenue out the game then let me know but(And I'm not saying you Radiant, just in general) don't take it for an unnecessary use cause it's like taking away from our game.

If anyone would like to discuss more on the future and the current state of AGS Colosseum then let me know cause I think it would be a good idea for me to open up a thread in the adventure-related section.

[LimpingFish]

This thread has mutated.

If people want to talk about AGS Colosseum, it has it's own thread. Please us it. Discussions about the what constitutes a "game" should also be taken to an appropriate thread, or taken to PM.

If nobody has anything else to say about "Dreams - Pub Master Quest", I'm locking this thread.