Topic: Why do we segregate by gender? (and why is it acceptable and even expected)

[Calin Leafshade]

Come on! We havent had one of these for a while!

Ok so I was thinking about teh gays (as I do sometimes) and I wondered why we segregate men from women (toilets and locker rooms and stuff) but not homosexuals from their gender or even from each other now that i think about it.

This led me to consider other times we have segregated and why it was considered bad. Why is racial segregation different from gender segregation? What is the defining characteristic?

I am physiologically different to a woman (shut up) but I am also physiologically different to a black guy. The differences are less stark but still there.

What about transsexuals? At what point is a male to female transgender allowed to use a female bathroom? When she identifies as a woman? Or when she has the operation? If the latter then are we saying that its merely the possession of a penis? What sense does that make?

If you are going to argue that it's the physical attraction that makes it inappropriate, that doesnt seem to stack up with the facts.

Firstly, men and women tend not to mind sharing a bathroom with homosexuals (some do but most dont) but would mind sharing with the opposite sex.

Also, do you think you would mind sharing a locker room with a member of the opposite sex if they told you that they didnt find you sexually attractive in the slightest (assuming you believed them).

I'm trying to organise my thoughts on this but nothing seems to make a lot of sense when i consider it rationally.

Does anyone have any insight? Are you gay? Do you have a problem with sharing a bathroom with a homosexual or the opposite sex? If so, why? or indeed why not if you dont.

[Oliwerko]

Calin, those are very good questions! Sadly, I have no clue about that either.

Why don't we have shared bathrooms? I guess the same reason why we don't walk around naked when it's hot outside. But what that reason is is another story. Tradition?

I guess it goes with the concept of "privacy". Your body is something that is a symbol of that. There are maybe other ones - like diaries - you would hate anybody to see them, but the people that are very close to you. Maybe the same goes with your nakedness.

I don't know. It's a complex problem. You put the questions well. It doesn't really make sense.

[Khris]

Interesting topic.

First of all, I don't see myself more physiologically different from a black guy than from a fat white guy, on the contrary, in fact (think airplane seats). Not sure why you'd think otherwise.

When it comes to bathrooms, I think throughput is an issue. Girls need their stalls, but men can often do without, even without an actual urinal. Depending on the location, there are quite often just metal walls and a gutter.
So it makes sense to separate people according to their anatomy from a purely practical standpoint. I guess that's why feminists don't protest against separated bathrooms

When it comes to awkwardness, you can't realistically draw the line according to which gender people feel attracted to. Do you seriously expect gays to come out publicly everywhere by using the locker room for girls? Thus, like in most other areas of public life, the categories are based on the 99%.

[Calin Leafshade]

First of all, I don't see myself more physiologically different from a black guy than from a fat white guy, on the contrary, in fact (think airplane seats). Not sure why you'd think otherwise.

There *are* physiological differences between ethnic groups. They just arent all that significant. Blacks tend to be more at risk from sickle cell anemia for instance. I appreciate that its very tenuous but I was just trying to draw a comparison to show that the physiological difference between men and women isn't a particularly good reason.

When it comes to bathrooms, I think throughput is an issue. Girls need their stalls, but men can often do without, even without an actual urinal. Depending on the location, there are quite often just metal walls and a gutter.
So it makes sense to separate people according to their anatomy from a purely practical standpoint. I guess that's why feminists don't protest against separated bathrooms

I doubt this to be the case.

I mean it's true that there are different requirements but we both know thats not the reason.

When it comes to awkwardness, you can't realistically draw the line according to which gender people feel attracted to. Do you seriously expect gays to come out publicly everywhere by using the locker room for girls? Thus, like in most other areas of public life, the categories are based on the 99%.

Gay men using the girls locker room would be no solution since the girls might be attracted to the men.

Also, in addition, why is it acceptable to have "Women's night" at the gym? Or a "Men's Only" club. Why is that deemed to be acceptable segregation? In those cases, physiological differences are definitely not a factor.

[Sinsin]

There are schools in my local area with Unisex toilets...all stalls  no urinals lol (FOR REAL)
 and also quite a few firms have unisex bathrooms etc.
As a buddisty kinda guy I just embrace the world for all its qualities. I don't believe I am any different to a woman mentally however biologically we differ a lot due to Testosterone and Estrogen (*dont know about the spelling). In modern society we are brought up to believe that a woman does this and a man does that I'M A MAN I GO TO WORK and I'M A WOMAN I MAKE BABIES AND FEED YOU.  Its pants yes I will agree but how do you change the attitude of a few Billion  (I feel all Brian Cox now WAYYYY ) people.

[WHAM]

Why women and men want privacy from the opposite sex (and, if possible, from sexually interested same-sex personnel)

> Men are worried they will be judged based on physical appearance and penis size.

> Women are worried they will be judged based on physical appearance, breast size etc.

However, such judgings are lesser in intensity and easier to ignore from same-sex and similiarly oriented people, thus the segregation helps us avoid unwanted criticism so we don't need to cry and bitch about someone telling us we don't look good enough.

[cat]

That may be true for showers etc, WHAM, but not for toilets with stalls.

It probably depends on the situation. Going to a unisex sauna is not weird at all for me. If the context is meant to be naked it's not a problem. But if a man for example enters a women's shower room this would probably mean crossing the border of privacy, as Oliwerko has mentioned.

So why is is not a problem to use a locker room together with homosexual people? Maybe because this is still according to convention i.e. only people of the same sex. If you break with convention people feel uncomfortable (which does not only apply to this subject, but to many situations)

[Hudders]

If I have to hear someone shitting, I'd rather they were of the same gender as me.

[steptoe]

Segregation: race and sexuality

Blacks from Whites segregation. Thankfully this was resolved in the 60's. Why, the USA even has a Black President today!

When it comes to gender benders (transsexuals, transvestites, Bisexuals and the like) there will always be a problem, from both sides.

If the world were to try and segregate every different type of human being on this planet I think it would be an impossible task.

If we had cubicles (toilet) for each type there would be an awful lot of cubical doors!

Who would we share cubicles with? Well, that's the $64,000 question.

The world is very very cosmopolitan. A man is a man and a woman is a woman and in the end its down to X and Y so we are told.

Unless the world governments rethink about this or there is another Holocaust (god forbid) then I think the world has it right about as much as it can at the present.

I mean, if you are a transvestite (man in woman's clothing) with toilet should you go in?

It's far too much to contemplate so we should just grin and bear it and get on with it.

There we always be those that cry "I am segregated".

By the way, I am white and heterosexual 100%.

[Stupot+]

Forgive me for any generalisations I may be about to make but hear me out:

For women, more than men, the bathroom is more than just a bathroom.  Men go to the toilet to excrete.  Women go to the toilet to excete, too, but also to powder their nose, and to chat about boys.  It's well known that they go in pairs or groups.  It's the one place they can discuss the men/boys they fancy without the men ever knowing what they are thinking.  If all toilets became unisex, they would lose the one place they can talk about us behind our backs.

Also, women are a little more coy about their bodily functions.  I don't think they want men to know that they are capable of farting (one friend of mine genuinely denies she has ever farted, to the point where I would believe her if it wasn't physically impossible).  As a man,  I can fart while standing at the urinal and the bloke next to me won't care, he might even laugh.  I don't like farting in front of ladies, and they don't like me farting in front of them, so the men's room is really the only place a man can escape the presence of ladies in order to let one rip, and do other smelly things.

There are also 'ladies' things' which, again, they can be very coy about.  Men aren't supposed to know about the special little bin in every cubicle 

[Dualnames]

What is love?

[kaputtnik]

What is love?

Love is...beautiful!


P.S.: Gender segregation has got a lot to do with the genealogy of modern societies, the gender-stereotypical functions assigned to their identifiable members of either one and the fundamental insecurity caused by a destabilization of the latter.

You know, bathroom stalls are a perfect example: Why the hell do women have to identify with the symbol of a triangularly shaped person, obviously wearing a dress or some sort of traditional triangular robe, while men wear trousers? Why is a dress perceived as "female", when it's just a piece of cloth covering any body in pretty much the same way (if you set aside anatomical differences)? Probably the same reason why there is a pink Playstation 2, which I am so going to buy off ebay as soon as possible.

[Oliwerko]

Good observation Stu. It's nice how everyone comes up with a different POW of the same situation.

kaputtnik said it well about the traditions - I think that people just NEED to be sex-segregated, and it cannot be erased, illogical as it may be. When you are raised in a society like this, you can't just go and dress yourself in a dress if you're a man and get no negative feedback.

[Ponch]

There are also 'ladies' things' which, again, they can be very coy about.  Men aren't supposed to know about the special little bin in every cubicle 

There's a special little bin? Why? What's in it? Puppies? Rainbows? Emergency hugs? What the hell are they keeping in this bin, Stu? Because if it's explosives, I think the other people in the office need to know about it. And how do you know about this, Stu? Are you in on the plot? Is the revolution about to start? WHY WASN'T I TOLD?!? 

[charlescreations]

I don't think it even comes down to gender, sexuality, or even segregation; It's privacy as far as bathrooms go.
I'm bisexual like a 4/5 on the Kinsey Scale (no one is safe). I can say from personal experience it's a lot more comfortable with stall-walls or at least decent height urinal walls.
I have had the awkward situation of being out with a bunch of the guys, my mates, and having to stand at a trough or urinals without privacy walls of any kind.

My general approach in those kind of things is to make intent eye-contact with something fascinating on the ceiling till I've finished.

Eventually places will have unisex bathrooms, with decent sized privacy boxes around the stall/urinal, and it'll just be.

Firstly, men and women tend not to mind sharing a bathroom with homosexuals (some do but most dont) but would mind sharing with the opposite sex.

Gee... Not where I'm from. 

I can't really make any real comments on being uncomfortable or comfortable with integrated locker-rooms and gyms and dormitories. I have sexual thoughts about both genders, so there's not really that distinction for me. I'm gonna be at about the same level of comfort/discomfort either way.

I think full gender integration is something that'll eventually happen on it's own. I think we'll always celebrate the sexes unique qualities, but we'll do it equally, without exclusion of anyone who can relate to those qualities. 

[Atelier]

why we segregate men from women (toilets and locker rooms and stuff)

I know this thread is old but I randomly thought of some reasons. The segregation can be explained by the cultural context of the first public toilet opened in London, 1852. The toilets were designated male and female to provide privacy for both (Victorians were insanely prude) and more practically to reduce the risk of sexual assault. In the 1830s people were still being executed for homosexuality, so the only distinction was somebody's biological sex because that's all society knew. I guess this is just something that has remained and been applied to most other areas (swimming pools etc) because it set the norm for dividing public places into male and female, and it has worked very efficiently since then so why change it by adding all these extra doors?

Arguably, if the entire public toilet system was to be redesigned (as if we forgot they ever existed) it might be that public toilets are divided by gender identity rather than biological gender. That's major theorising on my part but given the extremely more liberal attitudes and political correctness since 1852, it's definitely a possibility. Also, the number of public unisex toilets now are increasing and some councils have created gender-neutral toilets (there's one in my area). Essentially, the answer is that attitudes have evolved, but the basic system of discriminating between members of the public has remained the same because it is still the most logical approach. If LGBT were not a small minority, I would agree that the system wouldn't make sense. But there is no point creating separate rooms for lesbians, transexuals, gays, bisexuals, and asexuals if the vast majority of the public are heterosexual and identify their gender with their biological sex.

[Ryan Timothy]

I quite often hear female washrooms are disgusting compared to the male washrooms. I don't have any firsthand proof of this as I have never actually been in a female washroom. Apparently there's womanly products all over the floors (this is most likely in bars and such though - which is generally where I hear the comment - when random ladies decide to skip the female line and use the mans washroom. Having them stand behind me while I use the urinal while they wait for a stall).

One main reason I prefer the segregation is for the sex appeal. I don't want the sex appeal I have for women tainted by hearing or smelling what can come out of their bodies; just as I don't want them to be witness to mine. I know of some couples who have zero boundaries when it comes to personal hygiene and such (eg: shitting while the other is brushing their teeth in the same washroom). I personally believe in keeping things like that behind closed doors. Just because we both know what each other is doing in the washroom, doesn't mean we need an audience. Over time I can see that seriously killing the sex appeal of any long term relationship.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

I guess you better get used to Rosy Palm then, Ryan, because I hate to break it to you but when you and a girl move in together she's going to have to take shits and urinate and fart and all those other things you do and yeah, sometimes it's going to smell horrible and it could even happen while you're in taking a shower or brushing your teeth (unless you lock the door, in which case your girlfriend will likely wonder why you're being so secretive when you've been naked together).

That's called normal, everyday, life.


Your viewpoint is a pretty common one though and ties in with the topic pretty well because men have this tendency to think that women don't/shouldn't drop turds that smell bad or horrible farts and therefore women think it's a terrible offense for them to fart publicly or around their boyfriends until they get married and stop giving a damn.  This ties back to the whole unrealistic expectations we have of each other.  Oh, and women certainly have their weird quirky misapprehensions about men, too.

This reality check brought to you by me.

[Ryan Timothy]

I didn't say I wasn't attracted to women because they shit. I'm only saying I would prefer to not be witness to it. Keyword being: prefer. Of course I'll be walking into a bathroom that has been previously fumed (one reason why I have ventilation in every bathroom). I'm not going to leave my girlfriend because of it. I'm only saying that everything that someone does that is unattractive to you, is of course going to affect the sex appeal - even just slightly.

And I don't mean forever, I just mean at that moment. Unless you're constantly doing something unappealing like farting at inappropriate places, like during a meal or nestled together on the couch. That would have to be a constant thing though to be detrimental to the relationship. Look at how many marriages or serious relationships can't even last 10 years. It's everything you do that affects that. From the gagging sound you make when you're brushing your teeth, to the way the fork scrapes along your teeth as you eat. I'm not saying these small things are the reason for people breaking up, I'm saying it all adds up.

Anyway, I'm not secretive with my body or its functions, or anything of the sort. I just know what is rude or unappealing and like to avoid doing so around people I respect. It all falls down to respect.

It's like when I clip my nails for instance. I always either go outside, or to the garage, or bathroom. Why would I want any loose flying clippings to land on the carpet, couch, bed, etc. It can easily be avoided, so why not do it. To me, someone farting, burping or picking their nose all day long has an equal sex appeal as having terrible breath.

I don't scream to have the door closed when my girlfriend walks in on me taking a number two. But yes, I'd be locking the door just so I can have my 5 minutes alone and uninterrupted.

Edit: And I'm not saying you should be uncomfortable all day long because you've got a cork in your ass trying not to fart. I know how painful that can get when you're with a bunch of attractive woman and badly need to let one go. It's better to let them go then it is to hold them in. But there are moments when holding it for the extra few minutes is the gentlemanly thing to do. Or just roll down the window in the car - no one likes dutch ovens.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

Over time I can see that seriously killing the sex appeal of any long term relationship.

This was the main sentence that caused me to comment, this idea of yours that people going about their daily activities of this nature would somehow reduce sex appeal.  The sentence itself sounds really shallow, almost like a drunk saying it's too bright outside as an excuse to get drunk.

If people are getting divorced because of surface issues like this then they never should have married in the first place, and indeed, this is probably one of the root causes of high divorce rates now, the shallow and petty nature of some people when it comes to their tolerance of others.

It's like when I clip my nails for instance. I always either go outside, or to the garage, or bathroom. Why would I want any loose flying clippings to land on the carpet, couch, bed, etc. It can easily be avoided, so why not do it. To me, someone farting, burping or picking their nose all day long has an equal sex appeal as having terrible breath.

Do you run to the bathroom every time you have to fart, too?  Or burp?  Or scratch your nads?  I mean it sounds so utterly ridiculous on its face that I would rather believe you were bullshitting me than being honest. It's not like we're talking about someone with a habitual problem where they fart constantly and cause a scene, we're talking about a woman letting one rip in your presence and it somehow being a slight to you (you yourself use the term respect, especially).  So it's disrespectful for someone to fart in your presence?  And for a woman, it's not only disrespectful but will lead to an eventual total loss of sex appeal?

If anything, you should be flattered that a girl feels comfortable enough around you to just be herself and not sit there uncomfortably or leaving every x minutes to keep up some fake pretense.  Now if she's doing it and acting like she's not or being really obnoxious about it that's rather different but I don't think that's what were talking about here.


I think this is one of the weirdest discussions I've ever participated in.  I can't say I ever thought I would be here defending a womans' right to fart around a man with impunity.