Topic: Hero U Kickstarter, from the creators of Quest for Glory series

[ktchong]

Kickstarter Link: Hero-U: Rogue to Redemption

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

Oh please no...

[AGA]

Oh please no...

If it helps, the page says very specifically that the new game is not going to be a Quest for Glory sequel, and will be very different from those games.

[Radiant]

If it helps, the page says very specifically that the new game is not going to be a Quest for Glory sequel, and will be very different from those games.

...because they don't own the trademark to that series, I'm sure. Pull the other one

[AGA]

Well, reading the description it does sound quite unlike QfG.  However it's set in the same universe, and is made by the same people, so I'm sure it will feel a lot like QfG did, at least in certain ways.

[Blackthorne]

Yes - while they don't own the QFG games, the Coles do own the rights to Glorianna, Silmaria and other names and places in the QFG world.  However, this appears to be more of a top-down RPG.  We'll see more when the kickstarter gets closer, I'm sure.


Bt

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

In that case I suppose I can wait and see.  I'm really unimpressed by all these established designers falling on the kickstarter crutch, though.  I find it a bit tacky when real startup groups who couldn't possibly get funding for what they're doing from publishers now have to compete with Al Lowe and Jane Jensen.

[ktchong]

If it helps, the page says very specifically that the new game is not going to be a Quest for Glory sequel, and will be very different from those games.

Michael Cole, Director of Marketing for Transolar Entertainment, posted a message about the new game on GOG.com:

http://www.gog.com/en/forum/general/quest_for_glory_kickstarter_maybe_coming/post50

"In terms of game play, it'll have two major parts: The school part which revolves around character interaction and puzzle solving. The catacombs part which is a rogue-like with tactical movement and skills built around exploiting enemies weaknesses."

[ktchong]

In that case I suppose I can wait and see.  I'm really unimpressed by all these established designers falling on the kickstarter crutch, though.  I find it a bit tacky when real startup groups who couldn't possibly get funding for what they're doing from publishers now have to compete with Al Lowe and Jane Jensen.

I disagree. 

People who want to raise money at Kickstarter should have experience.  They should have successful work history.  They should have track records.  They should have done something similar before and succeeded. They should know what they are doing.  They should have already paid their due.  So now they are looking for money to do their own projects.  They have paid their dues, so now they deserve to get the money to finally pursue their dream projects.

I hate when people with no experience, no history, no background, who have not yet picked up any work experience or paid their due, just come out of nowhwere and then think they can use Kickstarter to hit people for money.  Personally, when I donate money to a Kickstarter project, the first thing I look at is at the resumes of the people who are asking for the money.  Who are they?  What are their industry history and work experience?  Do they have experience in doing anything similar?  Hve they ever successful released a product in the same field?  If they are just a bunch of (let say) young punk kids with no experience, who look at Kickstarter is just a way for them to skip work so they do not have to do a day of honest work to get to success, (now that's what really is tacky,) they can forget it.  I know I am not the only one who would not give a dime to those kind of people.

That is why people like Tim Schafer, Brian Fargo, Al Lowe, and indie studios like Double Fine, Obsidian Entertainment, inXile, were able to raise millions of dollars on  Kickstarter to fund their dream projects without having to answer to publishers or follow the profit-motivated parameters set by financiers.  People who should not be on Kickstarter and who do not deserve to get any donations are green kids who has no experience, no work history, no track records, and are just hitting people for money because they think they should not do a day of real work before they get their break.

[Blackthorne]

Sure, there's some freeloaders out there, "green kids" as you put it, who slap together a piss-poor Kickstarter, and you know what - those projects usually fail.  There's been some big names (David Crane) who slapped together a pretty poor Kickstarter and went out and failed too.

Not everyone who's out there using Kickstarter is there to avoid "a day of real work before they get their break".  The genuinely have no avenue or interest from professional publishers.  There's a few Kickstarters out there being run by people who could get a professional publisher to back them (And have, in the past, with nary a problem cashing their paychecks, either) but instead choose Kickstarter.  (I don't think the Cole's project, however, would generate much interest from a publisher.  I have no problem with them trying to run a decent campaign.) 

Jensen's Kickstarter, however - take a look at it.  When it started, there wasn't even a clear project to be made.  It was started as "Pinkerton Road"... funding for a company, which is a no-no according to KS guidelines.  Only during the KS they announced they were doing Moebius.  And then, to add to it, they said - in the middle of taking fans money - that a publisher had signed them on for a "secret game".  So, the double dipping kind of rubbed me the wrong way.

This model cannot sustain companies - these million dollar Kickstarters simply cannot go on.


Bt

[Babar]

Yeah, while I am happy at (some of) these companies/people who are coming up with stuff related to these old games we love, technically, the whole POINT of these kickstarter/indiegogo websites is innovative unknowns getting funding for ideas you think are great, NOT established names in the industry trying to get us nostalgic for something from 15 years ago.

[ktchong]

Yeah, I just checked out Jane Jensen's Kickstarter video.  That's a very shady pitch.  And they clearly do not need money -- just  look at their estate in the background!  Why were they even asking for donations?!?  Hot daughter, tho.

Tom Hall (of Ion Storm fame/infamy) is also running another Kickstarter.  Very underwhelming as well, with no clear sense of what he actually intends to do.  As I remember it, a decade a go Ion Storm blew away investors' money on luxurious offices, weekly parties, expensive cars, fast women, and then the company went belly up. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daikatana#Reception_and_controversy

With that track record, now they are hitting people for money again?  Seriously?

Of course, you do not have to give any money to anyone on Kickstarter; and you really should not give any money to Jane Jensen or Tom Hall.  The point is: having a track record and an impressive resume is NOT enough.  A fully-thought out goal and idea packaged with a good presentation should complement a good track record.  BUT, a track record/resume is a starting point.  I am old enough to know that a lot of people are great salesmen who can present a very persuasive pitch - but they can't deliver at all.  The best way to recognize people who can talk but can't deliver is to check their history.  An impressive resume is a starting point, but people should not invest money just by looking at the resume.  Checking the resume/history is only the first step.

[Blackthorne]

Yeah.  In the pitch for "Old School RPG", John Romero shows up in it, driving a Hummer that cost more than we raised in our Kickstarter to make a whole game with a team of 15-20 people.  It just makes me wince a little.  There's little guys out there working hard to make good games, and being appreciative of every cent we raised, and being frugal and (hopefully) wise with what we've been given.


Bt

[OG]

I am old enough to know that a lot of people are great salesmen who can present a very persuasive pitch - but they can't deliver at all.

Politicians are great at that.

At the end of the day, if people want to spend their money on something they will, if they don't, they won't. Right?

I think the reason the more established companies etc use kickstarters' is for the reason that these often 'original' projects wouldn't get funded otherwise. You would hope so anyway. Plus, you always get something in return for your money so there is little room to complain.

You could also use the 'digital age' argument, where by these platforms can be openly used by anyone, such as YouTube and the rest of them. Platforms that appear to start off as being for the 'average joe', but as we all know, the commercial world will dip it's finger in eventually.

As agent Smith would say: "It's inevitable, Mr Anderson."

[Radiant]

Tom Hall (of Ion Storm fame/infamy) is also running another Kickstarter.  Very underwhelming as well, with no clear sense of what he actually intends to do.  As I remember it, a decade a go Ion Storm blew away investors' money on luxurious offices, weekly parties, expensive cars, fast women, and then the company went belly up. 

Tom Hall is going to make you his bitch 

[blueskirt]

I will probably give them as much as I gave to Al and Josh, Scott and Mark or Tim and Ron to redeem myself for pirating Dr. Brain and Quest For Glory but I don't know if I will play the final product. The Quest For Glory universe is certainly more developed and engaging than King's Quest or Kyrandia, but without its iconic gameplay (which in my opinion is what makes the games some of the best RPGs in the video game medium) I don't know if it will be the same.

[Darth Mandarb]

People who want to raise money at Kickstarter should have experience.  They should have successful work history.  They should have track records.  They should have done something similar before and succeeded. They should know what they are doing.  They should have already paid their due.  So now they are looking for money to do their own projects.  They have paid their dues, so now they deserve to get the money to finally pursue their dream projects.

I hate when people with no experience, no history, no background, who have not yet picked up any work experience or paid their due, just come out of nowhwere and then think they can use Kickstarter to hit people for money.  Personally, when I donate money to a Kickstarter project, the first thing I look at is at the resumes of the people who are asking for the money.  Who are they?  What are their industry history and work experience?  Do they have experience in doing anything similar?  Hve they ever successful released a product in the same field?  If they are just a bunch of (let say) young punk kids with no experience, who look at Kickstarter is just a way for them to skip work so they do not have to do a day of honest work to get to success, (now that's what really is tacky,) they can forget it.  I know I am not the only one who would not give a dime to those kind of people.

I'm not sure it's possible for me to disagree with this more.

Kickstarter is the perfect place for a person(s) with zero experience to get the chance to gain that experience without having to deal with (get screwed by) an ignorant publisher who, in most cases, doesn't care about the game/art, they just want the revenue.  I know, when it comes to my games/stories/etc., that I will [most likely] NEVER sign-on and/or give the rights to a publisher.  They are mine and I'm not giving them up (like this new QfG game can't use certain aspects of the originals 'cause they don't own the rights... that's just simply ridiculous).

I think a lot of people are FINALLY waking up and realizing these greedy corporations are destroying the games market (and movies, music, etc).

Kickstarter is the perfect avenue for people like me (who have no "resume" or "experience" in the game development arena) to get our foot in the door and do what we're passionate about without having to sell our souls.

I much prefer seeing the unknown game developer start a kickstarter campaign and being successful.  Those are the people that should benefit from the possibilities that kickstarter provides.  I'm happy to see the big-names from the past coming out with new games and using ks to fund them, but for me it's the unknowns getting their chance to be known that is where kickstarter really shines.

It's a grand time to be an Indie Game Developer and Kickstarter is leading the way in making that possible.

[blueskirt]

I believe your two arguments are not mutually exclusive.

Darth is right, Kickstarter is for the tiny unknown guys. But ktchong is right in a way too, you don't need to be Tim, but you need a reputation, you must prove that, time and again, you're capable of bringing a project to completion, tested and polished, even if they're just small indie titles.

I can't speak for everyone but I've far too often stargazed and got emotionally involved with games on the WiP forum in my earlier years only to get burnt when the project got canned or the developer simply dropped off the face of the Earth. Nowadays, if you don't have a respectable track record as someone who can deliver a product from start to finish, chances are I'm not interested in your WiP.

Making a game from start to finish requires a passion of epic proportion, money help staying motivated when things get grindy and crunchy and the early fun part of game design is over, but money is much easier to give to people who proved they've got the passion than it is to people who have yet to prove anything about themselves.

[Jimbob]

I agree with this ^

Getting things to a complete state, regardless of size, is a tricky task.
I think you can still Kickstart in the absence of a history, so long as the evidence you provide in the pitch demonstrates the care and attention required to getting something done.

I've backed fifteen projects so far... and this is the only one that either hasn't had an almost complete product, a demonstration or a track history of completing stuff. And man, what a pitch... the love that's already gone into this thing, you can easily see it's not the money the creator is after, it's just the chance to make something beautiful.

And that's how you tell the difference...

(although a gallon of gorgeous pixel art also helps in my case...)

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

My main worry is that kickstarter is going to turn into a self-publishing nirvana for has-been and decrepit developers from the 80's and 90's who see it as an easy way around actually pitching their product to a publisher because -- let's face it -- many of them have fans so entrenched and desperate that they will throw money at them on the merest announcement of a game.. and if that is allowed to continue and prosper, you can be assured that they'll systematically push out neophyte designers with something actually new and innovative to offer because a new guy with a fresh idea cannot be expected to reasonably compete for funding against a Jane Jensen with old ideas and thousands and thousands of rabid followers...And yes, it is a competition because people have a finite number of funds to hand out to projects and the high-profile ones will naturally draw the most attention.

I don't see my statement as cynical as much as a scathing critique of designers who really could get their games sold if they were determined AND it was a good product.  Charles Cecil tops my list with his Broken Sword bullshit.  That guy undoubtedly has more capital than any 5 indie projects going right now.