Tropes vs Women

[Babar]

I hadn't realised that the 3rd part of this series had already been released (I wasn't even aware that the 2nd part was out), so I just finished watching them both today, and was surprised there hasn't really been any discussion on it in these forums.

Now you probably want to watch them to know what is being talked about:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLn4ob_5_ttEaA_vc8F3fjzE62esf9yP61
If you haven't seen any of them before, I think it'll take over an hours worth of your time.

I know there has been loads of horribleness surrounding the funding and development of these videos, but personally, I'm interested in them as a developer of games.
After watching, I had loads of thoughts and questions, so I figured it'd post them here as a way to get loads of different viewpoints.

First off, has there really been no game similar to the one she described at the end? It sounds familiar...or am I just thinking of the dozens of "male" versions of the game in existence?

Secondly, a lot of us are drawn here thanks to our love of the adventure games of the past, and our desire to recreate them. Is the only thing we can draw from those games the aesthetic and gameplay? Were the stories really so universally bad back then?

For my own part, my last MAGS game featured quite literally a Damsel in Distress- a songstress (I really love that word ) you were listening to was abducted and taken to the king for nefarious, probably sexual purposes, and then you a random stranger, went on a quest to save her. If I felt the need for it, I maybe be able to throw a couple of arguments about my specific case defending the game, but what I want to ask, out of curiosity (I'm not dead set on making- or find the basic premise of it a necessary one- a Damsel in Distress game and trying to justify myself ), is it possible, through carefully crafted story and narrative or whatever, to feature that- saving a friend, a girlfriend, a sister, a mother, or even a random female stranger as the goal or purpose of the game, without all the negativity inherited through this trope, or does cultural context and history and so on make it a totally lost cause?
According to the videos, the Damsel in Distress trope is employed to feed off of male empowerment fantasies at the expense of the woman. Would it be possible to remove such themes and ideas, while still having the player essentially, rescue a female. There are games where you must rescue a male friend or partner or something. If you just swapped those out for a female, would that automatically undermine the whole thing due to cultural context, or would it be plausible?
Interestingly, the video talks about ROM hacking (changing the sprites and text) to switch around the genders in console games. I've not played any of these games, but does the essential meaninglessness of the change to the game signify that yes, it does have more to do with the cultural context?

Also, finally, I realise that the perception of women in this medium will only advance through the work of developers that actively make games that challenge these stereotypes, but if I want to tell my own story, as long as I took to heart the issues presented and avoided them, is it really my job to be one of those advancing the medium developers?

I'm lazy, and likely not properly equipped to handle making such a game, and..I don't think I ever will. But it can't be anything other than a good thing to talk about this stuff!

[Mati256]

I have seen her three new videos and some of the old ones, and I have to say I mostly agree with her. Although after watching the three new ones I felt that the three videos where the same and everything could have been put in just one short video.
It's true that she starts with a preconceived idea and uses games that support that idea to make her statement, this doesn't mean she is wrong. What I find really pathetic is all the video responses trying to prove her wrong, listing games with female protagonists or videos whose only argument is "Samus Aran". That ironically has been hipersexualised as a bimbo a million times.

Sorry for not answering your question, just wanted to say that.

[Andail]

There's no point denying that the damsel in distress is one of the most commonly employed tropes in game design - or any other story-telling medium for that matter.

Why? The short, simple answer is that mostly males make games, and we like to tell stories that are personal and relevant to us. Making the protagonist male is just closer at hand - and if the one you're saving can also be a romantic interest, you have an effective and functional dramaturgy right there.

What really bothers me is when designers resort to gender stereotypes, with no interest in exploring their characters' depth. If the female character is only a sexualized, weak, silly girl, and the male is only a strong, battle-hardened, emotionally inhibited lone wolf, then you have a problem. (Every action/adventure movie from the 80's and 90's.)

Or if only the male character is nerdy, knowledgeable and witty, and the female part is pretty and popular, waiting to be won over and finally accept the hero's shortcomings, thanks to his genuine, geeky charm. (Modern geek comedies, Big Bang theory and similar shows).

Or if the female is enigmatic and quirky, fleeting and singular, like a mythical hind in the forest, full of mental scars and commitment issues. (Garden State, Eternal sunshine of the spotless mind, lots of indie dramas).

A problem arises when designers try to remedy this by just reversing the gender roles, because that can appear patronizing instead. "See, in our game, the girl is super tough, and she beats up men! That's radical and correct, isn't it?" No it's not - you're just pointing out that women need some sort of special treatment to compensate for stuff.

I hated the way the female protagonist in "The girl with the dragon tattoo" was portrayed, because it was basically the typical victim turned revenger. The Swedish title was "Men who hate women", which is a pretty straight-forward title, but what we saw was a girl who (justifiably) hated men. Is writing a novel like that modern and forward-thinking? No, because it still discriminates. It still victimizes women and put them on some sort of morally superior pedestal.

Now, a truly modern, non-stereotypical story would have a young man be taken advantage of by various women, and end up taking revenge on them. Because if we want women to appear strong and independent, they too must be able to handle ending up on that end of the spectrum.

Sure, we can avoid the clichées and stereotypes the best we can, but as long as mostly men create games and design characters, male heroes will predominate, and they will be better explored and more deeply portrayed, and more often than not will the recipient of their assistance, and the target for their romantic efforts, and the prize for their endevours, be female.

[Fitz]

It's like she says in the first video already, games are made mostly BY guys -- and FOR guys -- and as such, they are a realization of the "adolescent male power fantasies". "Damsel in distress" -- or any kind of objectifying/demeaning women -- is just one of the many negative tropes in games. Consider weapons. What's essentially intended as a tool of defense, in games becomes often the main -- or only -- means to progress in the story. Hence the popularity of Modern Warfare and Battlefield franchises, which results in subsequent installments being released every year.

The "damsel in distress" trope isn't specific to games only, though. It's still very present in movies and television -- and takes on a more demeaning form, I think. And I'm not just talking about the Spider-Man franchise, which is basically a re-enactment of Bowser kidnapping the Princess: MJ is constrained and all she can do is scream and wait for Peter to save her. What I'm really annoyed with is the plots where the character manages to set herself free somehow while the goon's not looking, and then -- with a plethora of heavy objects at hand -- she chooses to swat him with a proverbial daisy. Even if she manages to knock him over, she doesn't take the opportunity to knock him out to secure a safe getaway. Instead, she chases herself into a corner -- where the male brute, at his finest just seconds after taking a crowbar to the head/hot iron to the chest, seizes her again. Maybe I'm just weird, maybe I'm a psycho -- OR a closet feminist -- but I can't wait to see a girl let him have it

I don't think games are going to make any significant progress anytime soon. Other media may have, to a lesser or greater extend. Literature, for instance, made some significant progress since the time when Thomas Hardy's works -- in which women very often brought powerful men, often reducing them to poverty (Mayor of Casterbride), or even killing them (Tess of the D'Ubervilles) -- caused so much critical outrage that he gave up prose entirely. But let's face it: even today, we live in a world where guys are expected to buy the girl a drink

[DoorKnobHandle]

I found my own opinion on the matter pretty well-reflected and covered by this. Might be worth to watch for anybody interested in the matter.

(Looks like youtube embedding is broken again - or am I doing it wrong?)

[Ryan Timothy B]

(Looks like youtube embedding is broken again - or am I doing it wrong?)

I'll do it for you.
[embed=560,315]http://youtu.be/s5Q5KD7zwBs[/embed]


For future though, do it like so:

Code: html5

[embed=560,315]http://youtu.be/s5Q5KD7zwBs[/embed]

[DoorKnobHandle]

Hah, thanks!

I swear I tried that >.>

[Anian]

I found my own opinion on the matter pretty well-reflected and covered by this. Might be worth to watch for anybody interested in the matter.

I really agree with the opinions at the end of that video.

Feminist frequency videos, as one example, complain that women are used/killed off to motivate the male protagonist to act/revenge/action.
While yes this is true, personally, I would rather complain on how often that trope is overused in general and just kind of pulls towards the lazy writing problem. And secondly, pandering (or what they think is pandering) to male players - this is so freaking annoying. Not only because developers/publishers consider a lot of sexual pandering to be necessary while they don't concentrate on other aspects (such as gameplay), but I also get the sense that they think it will be the important factor and control my decisions (like liking or buying the game), like I'm some hormone driven uncontrollable sexual fiend. Though I guess there is a percent of the audience who act like that, mostly everybody else will have an opposite stance and actually find a negative aspect.

[kconan]

  As mentioned above, the target market is mainly younger guys.  I don't expect Cosmo magazine to run a 10-page editorial on monster trucks, much like I don't expect the mainstream games designed to appeal to young guys to somehow attempt to appeal to women.  Its also why many of the mainstream game plotlines are basic and lame, (sadly) most young guys don't want a deep story.  Even if Max Payne 4 tried to silence the critics, the "feminine" sidequest would be shoehorned in and poorly written.

I agree with Maddox: Sexism in Gaming

Edited: Agree with specific points of his, such as what do you expect when the target market is young dudes, and making an awesome game is better than complaining.  Disagree with anything about women only making boring games.

[qptain Nemo]

I think claiming that saving somebody, who is in trouble and who you deeply care about, is somehow an inherently objectifying act in itself, is just as utterly stupid as lazily basing a story entirely around such one single plot element to the point where it does become objectifying. So, even though Sarkesian means well and talks well and does say many good things, she also talks absurd bollocks on plenty of occasions to push her point as far as possible. Another example is her posing Mario as some kind of absolute idealogical root of whole gaming from which everything has grown.

As some people in the thread have already hinted, most problems with sexist story and character design are simply shit story and character design. Write good characters of both genders with care, and there is no sexism. Examples are countless. Take any well-written game designed by a clever designer who cares about what they are doing and you'll immediately find good female characters. Anachronox, Planescape: Torment, Legend of Kyrandia 2, Gray Matter, the list goes on. Notably, I think Daedalic have brilliantly made fun of the trope in Deponia, where it's ironically pushed to truly ridiculous lengths.

Lastly, Maddox is an ignorant idiot for suggesting games designed by women are doomed to be boring. I'm thrilled to bits by what Jane Jensen and Emily Short make. Hell, some of my favourite AGS games were made by ladies: Ola's Principles of Evil series and Akril15's Adventure series.

[FlyingMandarine]

I just want to react to kconan:

I agree with Maddox: Sexism in Gaming

Maddox writes: "Some feminists think that if only more video games were designed by women, that it would solve this problem. Except there already are a lot of games designed by women and nobody is playing them."

There are a lot of games designed by women indeed, but they represent only a small part of all games. If you pick up a game, chances are it's going to be made by a man, so it's no wonder less people are playing women's games.

He also says: "That's because the types of games that women design largely have one thing in common: they're boring."

I don't know how this statement could possibly be anything else than sexist: why wouldn't women be able to make games that are as interesting as the ones made by men?

He then goes on to talk about games that fit his definition of "boring" such as Christine Love's don't take it personally, babe, it just ain't your story or Dys4ia (and let's not talk about King's Quest!) when those games are/were actually pretty popular (and thus, not considered boring by at least a good number of people).

Finally, there is this whole argument of "don't complain, make games instead," as if complaining wasn't a valid way to challenge the status quo, and as if every critic had the talent, skills and/or time to make video games. You don't need to make video games in order to have an impact on the evolution of the medium.

This, and a myriad of small things in that page (Dys4ia is a game, not a "game" with quotations marks; don't take it personally babe's main plot point is not about "high school students coming out of the closet" but about the evolution of the relationship we have with technology and privacy in the future, etc.) make me disagree with the guy on nearly everything he says.

[kconan]

He then goes on to talk about games that fit his definition of "boring" such as Christine Love's don't take it personally, babe, it just ain't your story or Dys4ia (and let's not talk about King's Quest!) when those games are/were actually pretty popular (and thus, not considered boring by at least a good number of people).

Ok I don't agree with every single one of his points (I haven't played Dys4ia), but I believe that every "King's Quest" and other awesome games designed by women out there makes a case better than complaining does.  The target market is young guys, complaining doesn't change that.

His list appears to mostly boring games, but I of course disagree with his point that women can only make boring games.  Sadly, there aren't any popular and hugely successful ones that I know of outside of King's Quest.

[Calin Leafshade]

I mostly agree with FlyingMandarine on Maddox but then I have a history of agreeing with French AGSers.

The "make games yourself then" is an egregious argument as is "no one likes games made by women". As if human decency and positive cultural values were determined by popular decree.

Also, "the market is male so games are made for men" misses the point by a nautical mile. The point here is not that we should be making games *for* women but rather that the current gaming culture is *hostile* to women and reinforces negative gender stereotypes. Even if games were exclusively played by men and women did not play nor had any desire to play them there would still be a problem. If one actually seriously analyses popular culture with a critical eye it becomes very apparent how androcentric it is. See the Bechdel Test for instance.

Having said that, I find Anita Sarkesian to be an incredibly poor critic and I disagree with her, and indeed feminism as a movement, on several issues. I just wanted to respond to the rebuttals posted here.

[kconan]

Also, "the market is male so games are made for men" misses the point by a nautical mile. The point here is not that we should be making games *for* women but rather that the current gaming culture is *hostile* to women and reinforces negative gender stereotypes.

It is the point, and explains WHY it is hostile to women.  If less teenage (and 20s) boys/men and more women bought and played popular, mainstream games there would be less Duke Nukems and stacked Lara Crofts.

[Calin Leafshade]

I don't believe it is the point because it tacitly implies that men want Duke Nukem and its perfectly ok for them to want that. It tries to play the whole thing off as market forces and if more women played games then we'd have more My Little Pony games. It's insulting to men and women to suggest that is the case.

[kconan]

  I don't like what it implies either, but I know there are alot of guys out there in there teens and early 20s that will cheer on a Duke Nukem character.  That is a big market.  Basically, I just don't understand why a company ships out a Duke Nukem unless it believes money is to be made.

[Ryan Timothy B]

I don't believe it is the point because it tacitly implies that men want Duke Nukem and its perfectly ok for them to want that.

I agree. Like look at this:

[embed=560,315]http://youtu.be/-e6XQMCeXqY[/embed]

Men want these types of games (mostly young men) because that's what interests them. Although I have no desire to play Lollipop Chainsaw, but I do see the sexual appeal. A few days ago I played Hunted: Demon's Forge. I actually played as the female, only because she was the archer type while he was the hack and slash type - which is more fitting of my gameplay style. I ended up quite enjoying every sexual pose she did as she squeezed between tight areas, or slowly lowers and raises her ass as she ducks under stuff. It made it a very enjoyable bonus.

After watching these videos here, it makes me wonder. Would I have wanted to play Hunted IF the man wasn't in the game and it was only her. I doubt it would've looked appealing to me. Just like how Tomb Raider looks unappealing to me whereas Uncharted doesn't.

[dactylopus]

There are actually a lot of women in the gaming market:

[selmiak]

His list appears to mostly boring games, but I of course disagree with his point that women can only make boring games.  Sadly, there aren't any popular and hugely successful ones that I know of outside of King's Quest.

Say hello to Jade Raymond.


also complaining that videogames are sexist towards woman depends. I know you can get some weird sexual satisfaction when sticking your 4 pieces long straigth tetris piece into the hole that waits for it, but it is very consensual (though they both lose and disappear in the end). So it's mostly about stories where characters are shallow and stereotypical. So what? People playing these games also don't mind fighting the same monster in randomly appearing battles over and over again to gain some more EXP to finally be able to fight against the next boss only to be forced to fight against minor foes again before defeating the next big boss. So people doing this might also be a little shallow.
So this mostly is true for RPGs, but in defense of them, I enjoy some Final Fantasy games, if not for the levelgrinding but for the story, so some RPGs have interesting stories and characters, so compaining about bad examples is like complaining that Monkey Island 4 was in 3D and an uninteresting, bad game.

[kconan]

  According to Wikipedia: "Lollipop Chainsaw is currently Grasshopper Manufacture's most successful title, selling more than 800,000 units worldwide."  I had never heard of the game until now.  I've played the No More Heroes games made by the same developer and most aspects of the games were fun, but some things were outright strange and annoying like charging your weapon.  Anyway, as long as publishers and developers are rewarded with sales I don't see trends changing.