War unleashed...

[Scarpia]

I don't hate the U.S. I don't hate americans. Nor do I hate Iraq or Iraqis. But I do believe Saddam Hussein is a vicious S.O.B. who doesn't hesitate for a second to kill anyone who has a mind of their own. And I have seen enough historical evidence to support that he has done so. In that respect, I think killing off the maniac is the right thing to do. But making the first strike against a nation and calling it "preemptive war" is hypocrisy. And doing so even when the Security Council has forbidden it, is illegal. The coalition is not right to do so, even if the goals are reasonable.

Engaging in such a war is not a good idea, especially when the opposition can rightfully claim that

a) Saddam Hussein could have been removed LONG ago, but Great Britain, the US and others chose to keep him there for political reasons, well aware of the kind of dictator he is

b) One of the reasons why the attack came today (as opposed to giving Saddam more time), is that the troops couldn't wait any longer without reinforcements - I don't think that kind of logistical reasoning should ever determine when to go to war, and when to use diplomatic means

c) The Middle Eastern oil, unfortunately, looks like it has been one of the main reasons of the attack. Not that it makes Saddam less of a murderous tyrant, but the question "why now" is a damn good one. And September 11th isn't it, because if this was a war against terrorism, we would be attacking Pakistan (if we're after the training camps and 'harboring terrorists'), or Saudi Arabia (if we're after those harboring AND funding terrorism). And when Bush tries to answer the "why now" by referring to the weapons of mass destruction, that raises the question of "then why the HELL not bomb South Korea who have nuclear weapons and ALSO refuse to disarm!?". I'm not saying the war is wrong, I'm just saying that, to a lot of people, this war smells like oil.



Scarpia

[Vel]

These mist coloured mountains
are a home now for me
but my home is the lowlands
and always will be
someday you'll return to
your valleys and your farms
and you'll no longer burn to be brothers in arms
                                              Dire straits, "Brothers in arms", 1985

[Goldmund]

Too bad that there are no Shai-Huluds to devour Emperor Pretzel.

[Femme Stab Mode >:D]

So Damn Insane is the sworn  enemy of Osama Bin Laden, Osama Bin Laden is based in Saudi Arabia and has strong ties with their goverment, through the goverment denies it. USA is using Saudi Arabia as a base for it's troops and pays Saudi Arabia a hefty sum for it. Some of this money is sure to wind up with Osama Bin Laden. Oh, the irony!

[Darth Mandarb]

You're absolutely right.

BEGIN SARCASM

We (America) should have just continued to ignore Iraq.  We should have just let them continue to flaunt their 'power' and throw their defiance in our faces with no reprecussions.  If you think for one second that we didn't want to go after Hussein in '91 (by taking the war into an invasion of Iraq) you're wrong.  But once again, politics, and negative world opinion stopped us from doing what should have been done.  And because of that negative world opinion that mad man was able to stay in power and continue to rape and murder his own people to garnish more and more power.

I mean, they (Iraq) only agreed at the end of Gulf War I to disarm, and after 12 years of increasing their weapon supplies what else could we do but ignore this and let them have their way.  I mean, think about it.  This way, by ignoring it, we could just sit on our hands and wait for another Sept. 11 to occure.  You're right ... that's just what we should have done.  Or better yet, we could have just let him develop nuclear weapons so that once we learned about it, and then had to invade to save the world, he could then use the nukes on our troops and kill FAR more people.

END SARCASM

Perhaps some of you know about this fellow from the 1930's and 40's by the name of Hitler?  Look what happened when the world ignored him and his rise of power and the Nazi party.  Well, if you all can't see that Saddam Hussein is another Hitler and another example of history repeating itself you've got blinders on.  If we continued to hide behind diplomacy and do nothing, and not act, we were just setting ourselves up for far worse than this invasion of Iraq.  

I understand non-American sentiments, because you're not involved, but this is one American who is damn proud to be one, and damn sick of people having opposition to something that has become necessary.  And as much as I hate to say this, if we did continue to do nothing, and let Hussein stay in power any longer you would all have become involved eventually.  

For the record, I hate war, I hate that it has come to it.  But the bottom line is that diplomacy failed.  The U.N. failed.  The United States of America, along with our brothers from Great Britain, were the only ones with the wisdom to realize what was happening (going to happen) and the only ones with the courage and resolve to stand up and do what needed to be done.

I respect all your opinions, and I live by the constitution which supports freedom of speech, so you can all say what you want.  I just wanted to get my opinion in here.

I say good luck and God speed to our fighting men and women overseas!

God bless the U.S.A. and Great Britain.

dm

[Fuzzpilz]

I don't know how strongly other people would agree to the following, but I hope I'm speaking for others as well as myself.

Sorry, Darth, but while I might respect/like you as a person if I knew you (as is in fact the case with some people who are in favour of this war, to make it clear that these aren't just empty words), I am unable to respect your opinion in this - it's based on lies (to you, not of your own), misinterpretation of history, and possibly lack of education. Want a point-by-point rebuttal?

[Darth Mandarb]

Not really Fuzzpilz, I don't want to get into an argument about this.  I don't have anything against any of you (mostly 'cause I don't know you).  I respect your view (though I don't agree with it) and won't argue with you about it.  I think it's safe to say that you're not going to agree with me, and I'm not going to agree with you, so we can just leave it at that  Cool?  I really don't want to start an ideological debate!

(just to let you know, I am a historian, and very well educated)

dm

[Dmitri]

haha, my sister was shown on national tv protesting because she was right behind the guy being interviewed about the war.

War... what is it good for (apart from the economy due to increased government spending)

In the end, anyone who really thought they had an opinion about this and that it mattered was obviously wrong... the governments do whatever they want with big issues and we don't have any say (god bless democracy)

I liked Mr. Hussein's rebuttal speech to the war "The insane Bush will not succeed"

I'm nigh high sick of discussions about this flipping war though...

They say an Iraqi civilian died during the opening stages of the war. Then I thought, what about non-civilians? Weren't their lives just as important as civilians? Or don't they matter because they're holding a gun...

Gold: If only this was the land of sand...

[Kairus]

Do you really think Bush does this because he's absolutely brilliant and clever and has seen in a vision what the future will be if he didn't start this war? Give me a break, everything the US and the UK think when they go to this war ir three letters: OIL
Then they'll defeat Saddam and put in his place another puppet like they've done in other countries. Or you think Bush said to the people in Iraq "just don't blow up your oil resources" because he is thinking about the ambiental consequences it would have? It's just plain greed. Economical interests behind huge companies that (what a coincidence!) contributed in great amounts of money to Bush political campaign. Now he's paying back, that's it, and as he is not smart enough to think, he is not smart enough to say "go fuck yourself" to his contributors when they come with ideas like bombing Iraq to get its oil.
I'm not saying Saddam is not a dictator and he does not deserve to be removed from his position, maybe he is, but it's up to his people to rebel against the regime. They can't? They are being threatenned to death? What the hell! That has never stopped people from starting rebellions.
If they don't do, fear, whatever it's causing it, they would be just as the rest of the world. Don't think you're free because you have freedom of expression, don't think you're free because you can vote for the next asshole that's on the throne, don't think you're free because you can pick between twenty different types of toothpaste when you go to the supermarket. Because that, my friends, is what we call freedom.
Haven't americans started thinking why the rest of the world hates them yet? Not the people, but the ones who own the power. People is just blind about it, they can't understand it, but it's quite clear: they have been messing up with other countries for too long, they have been gaining too many enemies this last years, and they have told their people that life is like that, all the others outside their regime are wrong and only they have all the answers. This system is worse than a dictatorship, where you know who's the tyrant and who to spit to: this is brainwashing.

[Trapezoid]

OPINIONS sound very surreal when they're stated like fact, don't they folks?

[Kairus]

Hehe, I think the anarchist possessed me for a while.
I'm sorry if I offended anyone.
On the other side: I'm fed up about war.

[Darth Mandarb]

Who cares WHY the US and the UK are doing this.  I don't.  I just care that it's getting done.  It needed to be done, and regardless of why, it's going to be done.

If all the US and the UK are thinking about is oil, I say good for them!  Both our countries rely on Oil reserves from the Middle East.   We have a right to defend our interests.  But, of course, Saddam would never keep the oil from us ... nah .. he's a nice guy.

[Dmitri]

the reason the Iraqui's aren't rebelling is the same reason Americans aren't rebelling.

I mean look at America, the public opinion of Bush seems to be in the toilet with Hussein, it's just that they're allowed to say it. With so many people who are supposedly adamantly against the war, I'm surprised that there hasn't been a bloody uprising...

[DGMacphee from work]

If all the US and the UK are thinking about is oil, I say good for them!  Both our countries rely on Oil reserves from the Middle East.  We have a right to defend our interests.  But, of course, Saddam would never keep the oil from us ... nah .. he's a nice guy.

Even though the US plan to bomb areas of Iraq with a high civillian population?

I'm not for Saddam.

I'm not for Bush and Blair.

My biggest worry is how many innocent people will die at the hands of all all these "leaders".

[Quickstrike]

One lesser known reason for war:  Saddam pays $25,000 to the suicide bomber's families.  


Another topic:  America thinks too much of itself, but we're going to get Saddam, if we haven't, yet.

[OneThinkingGal and ._.]

Anyone notice that it seems 99% of the people FOR war are americans? Where are people from around the world who totally agree with what the US is doing?  

[Trapezoid]

They're all in various foreign governments

[Femme Stab Mode >:D]

I don't think that it is suitable to paint all americans the same colour and put them under one hammer. Yes, the majority is BLOODY FUCKING BRAINWASHED, but some are not. The media makes most americans believe that there are 51 states - 50 are USA and the 51'st is the rest of the world. If you tell people the same thing over and over for years they are sure to believe it, even if they themsleves think otherwise. Don't blame americans. It's not their fault. It's Bush's.

[evenwolf]

"Perhaps some of you know about this fellow from the 1930's and 40's by the name of Hitler?  Look what happened when the world ignored him and his rise of power and the Nazi party. "

Actually, I'm pretty sure Hitler's intentions were just to "liberate Europe."

Saddam = Bad
Bush Opposes Saddam therefore:
Bush = Good ?
No, no, no- that's silly.  One man may be evil but that does not make all of his enemies righteous. Bush may use counterarguments against discourse such as "Iraqi people, we bomb you because we love you" but somehow that just doesn't seem sincere enough for me.


Pro War argument #1:

We are liberating Iraqis from an evil power. They will be happy once he's gone and they will have democracy.  Assuming the majority of Iraqis wish for democracy- that sounds fine and dandy.   However, in order to give them this democracy- we are blowing up those people's lives: including the streets they go to work on everyday, their childhood memories, their relatives in the military, their national pride and security, their comfort (fucking BOMBS people, imagine!)  Has anyone bothered to ask one Iraqi citizen which lifestyle he prefers?  Whether he would rather have the choice of thirty named brand shoes, or to keep the life of his brother?  No one can argue we are improving the Iraqi lifestyle, that's non plausible.  

"but. .but ...but Saddam gassed his own people!!!!"
Ha, and the hundreds of death penalty victims Bush murdered weren't US citizens? Hypocrite.

[Dmitri]

site not found dude