AGS Awards - categories discussion [results!]

[Snarky]

stuff

Basically +1 to (almost) everything Ilyich said. Beyond that:

• I don't see any reason to change the voting process unless there's some actual evidence of "unserious" voting. The award patterns we've been seeing seem quite explicable to me even if all (or at least most) voters are perfectly informed and consider each category on its own merits
• I think genre awards would be a nice way to recognize a few more different games.
• Personally I see Background Art and Character Art as very different (with Character Art basically referring to the sprites). Character Art and Animation could probably be merged, though.
• Best Story and Best Dialog don't seem very much alike to me at all. Oftentimes the games with the best dialog have pretty weak stories, and vice versa. But since the most memorable dialog is often (though not always) in comedy games and the best stories in dramas, genre awards might be an alternative.
• Gameplay/Puzzles: This was one of the first years I found this distinction useful, since several of the gameplay nominees (notably HQ and TAOD) didn't have totally puzzle-based gameplay. But I agree 100% that it's something there seems to be a lot of confusion around. I'm not entirely sure that "Game Design" would be a less ambiguous term, but I guess it's worth a shot.
• Instead of "Best Puzzles", how about "Best Puzzle"? It would have to be a write-in, like Best NPC.
• I'd be sorry to lose "Best Sound", since I think it's a really important and often overlooked aspect of game design, but the problem is that when it's done well you don't notice that it's even there. If you played one of the nominated games six months ago, do you really remember if the sound was good?
• That said, I think it makes more sense to merge Best Sound with Best Music than with Voice Acting, since music/sounds is more part of the background experience and sense of the environment, while voice acting is foreground (and very noticeable). There are also a fair number of voiced games now, so even if only two managed to reach the nomination threshold last time around, there should be enough to sustain a category.

[miguel]

Ilyich, how can you be so calm and reasonable all the time? I envy you.
Apologies here for Snarky for my tone (unintentional).

Anyway, maybe more specific genre categories would reward a broader variety of titles. This seems to be the way.

[Andail]

+1 for genre awards.

Sound effects is probably a redundant and quite tricky category as most designers, even professionals, use libraries, either bought or creative commons.

Best puzzle (as in a specific puzzle) is an interesting idea, but it might be a bit unfair in the sense that it favors a game with one outstanding puzzle (but a dozen other lousy ones) over a game with twenty really good puzzles.

And to reiterate what some people have already wisely said about a game being commercial - it doesn't mean the designer magically got a huge team and could work full time on the project. In my case I still work on my own and have a day job - I just wanted to be able to pay my voice actors and (hopefully) get that money back.

[bicilotti]

Thanks everyone for your inputs.
There haven't been new posts in the last few days, so I guess we could start voting.

Given the questions, I guess an Instant-runoff will do (nothing scary, simply write in ranked preferences).
To provide a template, mines would be:


Question 1:     IV, III, I, II
Question 2-I:   a, c, b, d
Question 2-II:  a, b
Question 2-III: a, c, b, d
Question 2-IV:  a, b, c, d
Question 2-V:   b, a, c
Question 3:     none


Rationale

For question 1, see what Ilyich and Snarky wrote. In particular, if were to introduce 'Best Commercial', not every game would be able to compete Best Game made with AGS, which wouldn't do the awards any good in my opinion. I find Best Freeware to be more palatable but still unnecessary; a good game is a good game, who cares whether it's freeware or else.

Question 2: I am all for dropping many categories. The way I see it the Awards are (i) a moment for the community to choose their favourite games and a (ii) great way of showcasing excellence-in-AGS-gamemaking for the newcomer-player. In light of this, the plethora of categories we have now is not that useful; less is more.

Question 3: there have been some nice suggestions but let's face it, do we have the needed games to fill-up those categories? E.g.: Best SciFi, how many games would have competed this year? And again, there's a definite risk of watering stuff down, diminishing the importance of the Awards.


edit: of course if you find the list of voting options to be incomplete (or have any other remark to make), voice your opinions now!

[miguel]

What I do think is that we should have 2 separate awards.

The first one to take place (let's say in February and call it The Golden Blue-Cup) would award games from Demos to Short Games, also Non-Adventure games and everything made with AGS that doesn't rate as a full-lenght game. Here we could have all sort of categories that make different games unique.

The second one would be the AGS Awards, and would feature ONLY full-lenght games. A game, to be nominated for the AGS Awards would have to be:
- fully voiced;
- fully tested and bug-free;
- more than X playable rooms;

this awards could then have much less categories and really be the showcase of AGS games.
This way we would only have top, polished games into a "final round".

This is a different route I would like to be discussed by everybody really, and it's obviously just a rough idea. What do you think?

[Radiant]

Question one: III, I, IV, II.
Rationale: 2 is just messy. I think there are enough commercial games to warrant some kind of split though.

2.I. b, c, d, a
Rationale: I'm not sure if it's useful to separate sound and music, as both are complements to the game's auditory experience; although voice acting should remain separate.

2.II. a, b
Rationale: Writing and dialog are two sides of the same coin.

2.III. c, b, d, a
Rationale: It seems there is disagreement over what "character art" means: some people feel it's mostly about portraits (which is closer to background art), and other people feel it's more about character sprites (which is basically what the animation award is for). I think that's a good reason for removing character art as a separate category.  It doesn't really matter where "character art" gets merged into, since there is disagreement over what that term means.

2.IV. c, b, d, a
Rationale: It doesn't seem clear what "best gameplay" means. To some people, it's synonymous to "best game"; others consider it similar to "best puzzles", or to "best writing". Again, I'm not sure if best gameplay should be left as a separate award. However, "best programming" is clearly distinct from all of these. So my preference is to eliminate "best gameplay" (since it is not clearly defined what that means), and leave "best puzzles" intact.

2.V. b, c, a
Rationale: I find having two character awards somewhat redundant.

About question three, though: There has not been enough discussion about this topic, and the top post doesn't currently list the suggestions people had. Most importantly, I believe that the outcome of questions one and two will influence what people want for question three, so I suggest that we postpone question 3 until voting on the other two is complete.

[bicilotti]

About question three, though: There has not been enough discussion about this topic, and the top post doesn't currently list the suggestions people had. Most importantly, I believe that the outcome of questions one and two will influence what people want for question three, so I suggest that we postpone question 3 until voting on the other two is complete.

I have added the suggestions in OP!
As for delaying the vote on question 3, we are burning out (check the number of posts in this awards thread compared to this); I don't think more debate will help. Having said that, I expect casting ballots will take some time (due to non-triviality of deciding preferences), proposals can still be submitted.

[kaput]

Baron pretty much hit the nail on the head. So, you can go ahead and pretend I said it all too.

[Snarky]

Question 1:     III ("Best Freeware Game"), IV (no change), II (parallel awards for each category)
Rationale: I'm relatively indifferent between III and IV, which I think are both good solutions. Parallel awards (except, I assume, one joint "Best Game" award) would be cumbersome. Alternative I, to exclude commercial titles from all categories except for "Best Commercial Game", would in my opinion be catastrophic.

Question 2-I:   b (Music+SFX combined), d (no change)
Rationale: As argued above, SFX may be a hard category to evaluate, and SFX+Music are often aspects of the same experience. Voice acting is clearly its own thing.

Question 2-II:  b (no change)
Rationale: "Best Story" and "Best Dialogue" seem to me to address distinctly different parts of the game design. If voters do not clearly distinguish them, perhaps clarification is needed instead of merging.

Question 2-III: c (merge Character Art+Animation), d (no change)
Rationale: Sprite Art and Background Art are relatively easily distinguishable graphical elements, and fairly often even done by different artists. They should not be merged. OTOH, Sprite Art and Animation are tightly intertwined.

Question 2-IV:  b (merge Gameplay+Puzzles as "Game Design")
Rationale: I don't understand the suggestion of merging "Best Programming" here, it seems completely unrelated to me. (Best Programming, as I see it, essentially means "the most impressive-that-you-managed-to-get-AGS-to-do-this game we saw this year".) I strongly object to the idea of dropping any consideration/mention of gameplay apart from puzzles. "Best Puzzles" is an ambiguous category that I suspect different people think about in different ways (most balanced puzzles? most creative puzzles? most difficult puzzles? most memorable puzzles?), and Best Gameplay is probably even more confusing. "Game Design" could work, but I think what's really missing here is a good explanation of what the category or categories mean.

Question 2-V:   c (no change)
Rationale: I don't see a problem with the Best Character awards.

Other comments:
As I believe I mentioned but maybe forgot, I think it would be useful to have a short description of each category to define what it means, so that hopefully all voters understand it more or less the same way.

How about an award for best user interface?

[Ghost]

How about an award for best user interface?

Excellent idea; +1 from me!

[Radiant]

How about an award for best user interface?

That depends; do you mean the easiest to use interface? The prettiest looking interface? The most innovative interface? The most versatile interface, in that it also works on one-button mice or touchscreens?

[Snarky]

Well, I would propose something along the lines of:

Best User Interface: "The means of interacting with the game, including mouse cursor, keyboard controls, menus and other interface widgets, and how these respond to user input. Awarded to a game which stands out by reason of visual appeal, elegance and simplicity, innovation, or ease of use. Multi-modal support (e.g. keyboard shortcuts), usability on different hardware platforms, and accessibility for players with physical impairments should be considered."

It might be best as a juried award?

This also serves as an example of the kind of description I think might help clarify some of the other categories.

Edit: Oh, should probably specifically mention inventories as well (since inventories are, at least IMHO, the weakest UI point of many AGS games).

[Radiant]

It might be best as a juried award?

Probably. The issue is that three of the aspects you mention (visual appeal, simplicity, and innovation) tend to be mutually contradictory. For example, the best visual appeal is probably a Sierra or Lucas-styled interface with good graphics (but that's not really simple, and clearly not innovative). The best simple interface is arguably a one-click interface, or left-to-look,right-to-use (but there's no visual appeal here, and it's not innovative either). Innovative interfaces are things like Infinite Monkeys (which is neither simple nor visually appealing). I don't think that adding another ambiguous award is the way to go.

Thinking about it, it's probably better to see "visual appeal of interface" as part of "best sprite art", and to see "ease of use of interface" as part of "best gameplay"; and we already have an award for best innovation.

[Snarky]

To me the different aspects are not mutually exclusive. For example, IMO a simple two-button UI with a well-designed cursor, a pretty effect for when hovering over hotspots, good feedback on actions, and with tasteful menus (e.g. at game start) has plenty of visual appeal, certainly just as much as the Sierra/LEC UIs. (I would probably penalize it if it used LEFT to look and RIGHT to act rather than the other way around, though. )

I don't see it as a huge problem to use several different criteria in one category, as long as it's explicit so that voters know that all of those things matter. For example, UI innovation should be awarded, but only if the novelty is actually competently executed and appealing. Yes, it'll be a matter of weighing these different factors against each other, and deciding which ones are more important in any particular case. But isn't that the case for many of the categories?

We all know that "UI visual appeal" will be almost completely ignored in a "Best Sprite Art" category, and I'd prefer to keep a gameplay/game design category focused on... the gameplay, or the game mechanics if you prefer, i.e. "what it is like playing the game" independent of the specific UI or graphics etc. Innovation is probably the category that comes closest (in that it has been awarded in the past apparently on the basis of innovative UI elements), but then we're losing all the other dimensions of "good UI design".

I guess the question is whether we think UI design is an important and distinct enough element of making AGS games that it deserves its own award. It might not be. (I tend to think it is, but that's just in my own judgment.)

One other possible argument against the idea is that it's yet another category that awards "polish". Making a good UI is 90% about tweaking code and graphics so it looks nice and behaves smoothly in every case (e.g. stuff like changing the graphic to show that a button is pressed), and the most professional games, whether commercial or freeware, are most likely going to dominate.

[Ghost]

I'd like to see that "Best UI" award simply for the implication that there's more than BASS (which has become a standard and is boring as hell) and that the way you interact with a game can shape the game- that is SO OBVIOUS that I wince at mentioning it. To name a recent example, Resonance has been lauded for its interface. It was NOT completely novel (even the memory thing has been done before) but it just made sense within the way you played the game, and it was a huge achievement, code-wise. It came with a lot of visual overhead since everything slid in and out and occasionally you'd have to make a few extra clicks, but that did not ruin the concept.
Any clever idea to make an adventure go beyond look/use(on) should be worth an award.

[dactylopus]

Stating my opinions here:

Should we separate commercial games from freeware games? If so, how?

    Yes, have a "Best Freeware" reserved to freeware games.

I feel that Commercial Games should be eligible to compete in every category, although I feel that an award specifically designed to recognize freeware games would be nice to see as it has been the core of the AGS experience for many years.

Should we trim the awards categories? We could... (non-exclusive)

    ...merge ________ into Best Music&Sound:
        Music/SFX into Best Music&Sound (leave Voice-Acting alone).

Voice Acting is really a different category, although Music and Sound Effects could be combined.

    ...merge Original Story/Dialogue into Best Writing.
        Yes.

I see the benefits of keeping them separate, and would not be troubled if they were kept that way, although I feel that Story and Dialogue are part of the same category and could easily be combined.

    ...merge ________ into Best Artwork:
        replace BGs/CA/Ani with Best Sprite Art plus Best Artwork.

Sprite Art could include all Sprites in the game, not just Characters, and their respective Animations.  Background Art could include not only Background Art, but also the related Background Animations.

    ...merge ________ into Best Game Design:
        Leave things as they are.

To me, Programming is about behind the scenes code work.  For example, one reason I nominated Heroine's Quest was for the Programming of the combat engine, which I saw as a very worthy contribution.  I also nominated The Art of Dying, as the entire game made use of very complex coding to achieve an engaging platforming engine.  Puzzles, while related to coding, are a completely separate category, and are a big part of what makes Adventure Games unique.  Gameplay, in my mind, is about the ease of use of the game.  A winner should be like a car, it is a smooth ride, handles well, and driving is intuitive.

    ...drop best Player Character/Non-Player Character:
        merge them in Best Character (whether Player controlled or else)
        Leave things as they are.

Either of these options appeal to me.  I find a Character Award to be fun.  Often times, that Character is not the Player.  I'm not sure we need to have two awards, but I'd rather both than none.

Should we add more categories?
    For this question, just input 0 or more categories. The ones which will reach >50% of the ballots will pass.
    To date, suggestions have been:
        Best Horror
        Best Comedy
        Best Drama
        Best Science Fiction
        Best Setting/Gameworld/Atmosphere
        Best Newcomer
        Best User Interface

I would be on board with any of the categories listed above.  Newcomer should be more defined (is it being awarded to someone new to the Community that year, or anyone who is new to the Community within 5 years?  Or is it awarded to anyone on their first game, or on their first full-length game?  Is this going to be a Category like Lifetime Achievement, or is it a Voting Category?).  I'm not sure about User Interface, since that can be covered by Sprite Art, Programming, and Gameplay, but it might be nice to recognize the best example each year.

Anyways, just a few opinions on the questions at hand.  I'd like to voice my agreement that there could be more explanation into what each award is about, like a short description.

I appreciate the opportunity to aid in the further development of these awards.  I'd also like to thank everyone involved in the awards and the related ceremony for all of their hard work on this continuing endeavor.

[Baron]

1. Should we separate commercial games from freeware games? If so, how?
III, IV.  I agree with Andail that just because a game is commercial doesn't mean the developer necessarily has a large team or vast resources to throw at it, but at the same time it does imply that the developer at least put more time into the project than a freeware developer would be able to justify.  With an increasing list of commercial titles each year I think a "Best Freeware" category is valid, but should only be awarded if the "Best Game" is not freeware (i.e. the freeware runner up, so we'd still just be voting on best game but those votes might result in two awards instead of one).  This means that sometimes the nominations might have to be tweaked to ensure that there are two slots reserved for freeware games (not an issue now, but it could be down the road).   I don't see limiting commercial games to one category or separate commercial/freeware awards for all categories as viable.


2-I Should we trim the awards categories? We could... (non-exclusive)
c,b,d,a  -Although, reflecting on this further, could we maybe consider a "Best Voice Actor" category?


2-II ...merge Original Story/Dialogue into Best Writing.
b} Leave things as they are.

2-III ...merge ________ into Best Artwork:
d) Leave things as they are.

2-IV ...merge ________ into Best Game Design:
a, d, b, c

2-V ...drop best Player Character/Non-Player Character:
c) Leave things as they are.  Adventure games are so character driven that I think both awards have merit and should be retained.

3. Should we add more categories? -I'm big on this, in most cases:
        Best Horror +1   
        Best Comedy +1
        Best Drama   +1                       
        Best Science Fiction +1
        Best Setting/Gameworld -I like this idea!                             
        Best Atmosphere -I think this could be merged with the above topic
        Best Experimental Game +1                             
        Best Resource +1
        Best Newcomer Almost impossible to define fairly                                     
        Best Puzzle (single Puzzle) -I like this, as it makes voters think about specifically what they liked about a game
        Best Game in Communal Series -as opposed to a proprietary series (Barn Runner, Blackwell, etc.), +1               
        Most Daring Interface +1
        Most Thought Provoking Experience +1 
        Best User Interface I agree with Radiant on this one, it would be so hard to define what "best" meant
        Best Voice Actor -(+)rewards acting, instead of the designer who merely solicited the lines; (-) might not be community member....

[abstauber]

Question 1: IV, III, I, II
Rationale: There aren't that many commercial games and if the apocalyptic forecast of "how AGS is too limited for modern times" comes true, the number of commercial titles will even more decrease.

Question 2-I: d, b,c,a
Rationale: Totally selfish reason - I don't know if I ever have a voiced game

Question 2-II: a,b
Rationale: I can't see how a great story can be transported without having great dialogs

Question 2-III: c, d,b,a
Rationale: as Q2: great sprites usually don't go along too well with blocky animations

Question 2-IV: b,d,c,a
Rationale: With gameplay and puzzles merged, also a non adventure game has a chance to stand in Game-design

Question 2-V: c,b,a
Rationale: I like strong NPCs, so I also like to see an award for them.

Question 3: 0
Rationale: It sure would be nice to see those categories filled, but I can imagine that nominations and voting get pretty complicated.

[miguel]

I considered not voting or voting blank if I could but because I can't change the way things are, consider Baron's votes mine as well. Please.

[Ogon]

As a composer, I think merging SFX and music makes no sense at all. I don't see why a composer should be barred from getting recognised for their work just because the sound effects guy wasn't doing a good job. It's just a different thing.

Similarly, I think merging SFX and voice acting makes no sense either.

Edit: adding a note because bici poked me about it: I don't have an opinion on the other things. So my formal vote is 2.I: d