Civilization critique and gaming

Started by Janos Biro, Tue 22/04/2014 07:05:45

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Janos Biro

This comes from this topic.

Sunny Penguin,

I sense a major cognitive dissonance happening here. First of all, I was not angry at all. Maybe you imagine me angry because you feel I'm attacking something you value. I don't follow conspiracy theories, ufology, mysticism or apocalyptic madness. I've read Carl Sagan's The Demon-Haunted World and I consider myself quite balanced between skepticism and wonder.

QuoteIf you really wanted to take the high ground what you should have done was answer my questions intelligently with arguments that empowered your views instead of brushing everything I said off as 'laughing at you' and not worth your time - I was being deadly serious and your attitude is insulting. If you are not going to answer this properly, then don't bother answering at all. I do not want to waste more of my time.

I think we are having a big misunderstanding, or maybe a language barrier, but I swear I was trying to answer you the best way I can. I tried to be funny just to avoid being too boring, but I was not joking. I understand that it may look like a joke to you. I may be challenging some very strong assumptions you have. But I never thought my attitude would be considered insulting, really! :(

I read about civilization critique since 1998, and I discuss it since 2002. It took me 4 years just to take it seriously. I had a lot of long discussions about it. Your reaction is absolutely normal, I've seem questions like yours many times. But I feel that we can talk about this for pages and pages, and still wont be enough to make you comfortable with that idea. Its just a VERY unusual and delicate subject that I would rather not discuss in here. If you are really curious about it we can open another topic. Don't take this as an insult, please.

I'm very much aware of paleoanthropology. Sure, I know it looks crazy to talk about 100.000 to 200.000 years if we usually mark 50.000 as the beginning of symbolic culture and 10.000 as the beginning of agriculture and sedentary settlements. It is very distant from what you expected (ten years, twenty years). But I said that to imply that I believe civilization is something that is within us since the beginning of the "modern man".

We usually think of human history in a very small scale. Suggesting that something went "wrong" right in the beginning of humanity sounds absurd. But it is exactly what the myth of the Fall of Adam tells us. This idea have been around for a long time.

The question is not what I would change. Yes, I'm only human. And we developed these amazing skills that allow us to be reasonable, even if in the end we may reason about reason itself and realize it was all vanity.

You cannot survive without money, IN THIS CULTURE. But people certainly can survive in another culture, if we don't kill them to take their resources, of course. The fact that you compare money to oxygen and water is a symptom that this way of life is as important to you as life itself. So maybe you will fight to death to defend it. But there is no money in bartering cultures. Its a HUGE jump from one thing to another. The idea that you can have a fixed exchange rate for things was not always obvious, it is very recent. Even bartering is very recent, because it demands surplus. The selling of entertainment services and full-time entertainers are even more recent. It all depends in the scale of time you use.

But that means nothing, since we are here and now. I only said that you can make games without having nothing to do with the game business. There is nothing WRONG with being paid for doing what you like. It's not a right and wrong question, it is just that you need enough people doing the hard work for you so it becomes possible to live as an artist or a philosopher... That's why civilization is based on slavery. Slaves can be substituted by machines, but it is not that simple. We are still trying to make it work.

I understand making a game is very hard and so you want to be paid for doing it. But you also have to understand that your game have to be worth of my time and my work too. How will you make sure it will sell if you are making a game YOU would like to play, but not sure if anyone is quite like YOU? To reduce the risk, your best option would be to follow popular trends. But that's very restricting, people would get bored soon, so let's do like other industries did in the past: let's diversify production by categorizing consumers in different sets of "individual tastes". Segmentation. The media made a good job convincing people they should all consume different things because they have different personalities. But the problem now is that the offer is growing much faster than the demand. Don't worry, we have a thing called consumerism. We make sure people will pay absurd prices for games just like they pay for clothing brands; they will buy games they will never play; they will buy disposable mass produced games, hate them, and then buy handcrafted indie games just to feel better; they will fund games; and they will spend money on game related events and merchandise. Now everybody is happy and gaming is growing fast and healthy, just like any business that is about to crack. But, don't think about it, enjoy while you can.

No, really, I know how it sounds, but the reason why we think so differently is that we have different visions about capitalism. I have nothing against you, I just looking at it from my own point of view, and something doesn't seem right.

QuoteYou seem to quote all the theories to arm yourself with more ammunition but do you honestly think that these figures would all agree with each other? You appear to have a mish-mashed view of the world. These are just theories - it's time to get your own opinions. AGS forum does not require essays at the level of a doctoral thesis, where you have to substantiate everything you say by quoting someone more established than you. It is staring to look quite  desperate the way you argue with people.

I see... Well, you think I'm fighting for superiority, but I'm just answering you calmly and patiently. I'm not desperate at all. I'm sorry if this is not the place, but I just don't know how else I could express my thoughts. My world view cannot be easily summarized. Sure it's just theories. I don't discuss opinions, I discuss reasons.

QuoteYou imply that ancient cultures are bad: "there is no "trial and error" and no "constant improvement".

No! You imply that "trial and error" and "constant improvement" is good, so the lack of it is bad. Not at all. Those are very modern values.

Let me rephrase: Civilization did a great job diminishing the problems itself created, as long as it can continue creating even worse problems.

QuoteThat's life and there is nothing we could change about it.

Sorry, are you saying civilization is hierarchically superior to other ways of life? Like an alpha culture? Or are you saying social inequalities are comparable to natural hierarchy? And what about using the concept of profit to talk about nature? What do you mean? ???

QuoteIf humans are not creative, then what is the point of literature, music, dance and games?

Really, what's the point? Ask different cultures, and you will get different answers. I was only showing the distance between our culture and those that would say that all those things are divine, they connect us with a higher level of existence, they are transcendent. So it doesn't really comes from us, we are just allowed to participate. Be thankful for that! :-D If this is a very hard concept to grasp, sorry about even mentioning it here... I did cause I wanted to show how big games can be.

Quotewhat is your perfect world?

I don't see the relevance of this question, but there is no perfect world. There are the things that will last enough to be part of this world, and the things that will fall before. Civilization, so far, in my view, has not earned a place in this world. All I know is that we can live in a very different way.
I'm willing to translate from English to Brazilian Portuguese.

Retro Wolf

I'm a big fan of Sid Meier's work.

Janos Biro

I always thought Sid Meier's Civilization to be very deterministic, like every human culture was destined to become like this culture. Like this culture is superior and more advanced than all others.
I'm willing to translate from English to Brazilian Portuguese.

Intense Degree

I think the Civ series mirrors real civilisation in that however much you like the previous iterations, once the new one is upon you you can't live with the old ones any more and if you try you will face deep disappointment.

I mean everyone knows that units being able to swim across rivers and the sea is cheating but now there is no going back! ;)

Retro Wolf


Cassiebsg

There really only 3 choices... assimilation, ignoring or annihilation...

If you are technologically superior to other cultures/civilizations/whatever, then you can choose to share your knowledge with others and help them come up to your level (assimilating that culture);  do nothing and let them alone (ignoring) or take advantage of your advantage and annihilate the,....

Don't think there are other choices there...
There are those who believe that life here began out there...

Scavenger

QuoteBut that means nothing, since we are here and now. I only said that you can make games without having nothing to do with the game business. There is nothing WRONG with being paid for doing what you like. It's not a right and wrong question, it is just that you need enough people doing the hard work for you so it becomes possible to live as an artist or a philosopher... That's why civilization is based on slavery. Slaves can be substituted by machines, but it is not that simple. We are still trying to make it work.

Everyone does something for everyone else. If the artist did not contribute anything of value, then there would be no artists. The people doing the "hard work", the farmers, the doctors, the builders, all find value in what the artist does. Being an artist is no easier than being any other job. It's just hard in other ways. Would you say the same for any other job?

You benefit from civilisation, have benefited, since birth. You are using a machine that required many thousands, millions, of hours of work (that could have been used gathering food), to deliver your ideas to others across the globe. Without the concerted effort of civilisation, culture would be relatively stagnant, people would devote more time to individually surviving and less to thriving. Would you want that?

Would you want to deny people access to boundless knowledge? In the age of the internet, I could learn pretty much anything I wanted to. In the age of nomads, I would be stuck with an infinitesimally smaller amount of knowledge. The knowledge of 100 people, tops.

Civilisation isn't perfect, but it sure beats the alternative.
(the alternative is that we spend more time and energy gathering food and less time on gathering knowledge)

Quote from: janosbiro on Tue 22/04/2014 07:05:45
Really, what's the point? Ask different cultures, and you will get different answers. I was only showing the distance between our culture and those that would say that all those things are divine, they connect us with a higher level of existence, they are transcendent. So it doesn't really comes from us, we are just allowed to participate. Be thankful for that! :-D If this is a very hard concept to grasp, sorry about even mentioning it here... I did cause I wanted to who how big games can be.

To be honest, I find this incredibly insulting, on an almost visceral level. It implies that humans are pointless, useless, completely devoid of any creative thought without some greater thing giving them it out of pity. It takes all of our achievements, personal or grand in scale, and takes them away from us, instead giving them to some invisible, ineffable non-entity. In externalising achievements, by taking away the agency of humans and praising the intangible, it stops curiosity, and development, and everything that makes us human, and reduces us to mere puppets of greater beings.

kaput

Thanks for the reply, Janos. While I don't agree with you I can still appreciate that everyone has their own opinion and you're certainly entitled to yours. And you're right, we could argue/debate/converse until we are blue in the face about this and it would probably go on for pages and pages, but we'll probably just run around in circles, so yeah, let's just leave it there. I'll admit that you came across as angry, patronising and arrogant to me, granted, but I know you're probably a decent guy anyway, even if I might think you are misguided and too sure of your own assumptions, blind to my own or anyone else. Maybe I am wrong about you, who can be sure. I've said my peace.

I'm not 'backing out', per se, and I'm certainly passionate about all this, but this really isn't going anywhere. You know it and I know it. ;)

Janos Biro

Cassiebsg,

This game reduces Civilization to a one-button game. Check it out!

But maybe there is another choice. Some say the Mayans gave up their cities and moved back to the forest... And there is Fight Club!


Scavenger,

I had no idea this subject could be so insulting to some people. To me, Humanism is just a philosophical position that spread from Europe to the rest of the world some centuries ago. Before that, people never thought much about themselves, except for popes, emperors, kings, pharaohs... Now the consumer is king. If this is insulting, I promise I won't touch it again here. :X

QuoteWithout the concerted effort of civilisation, culture would be relatively stagnant, people would devote more time to individually surviving and less to thriving. Would you want that?

It is not about what I WANT. I would ask you what is so wrong with what humans did for 90% of their existence, but you would think that I'm joking, right?

Yeah, civilization is great. Sorry for even questioning that...


Sunny Penguin,

I'm very glad with your reasonableness. I may be misguided, but I'm not sure of anything. I just discussed this subject so many times that nothing seems new... I agree this isn't going anywhere. There nothing wrong with admitting that. So, peace!
I'm willing to translate from English to Brazilian Portuguese.

Cassiebsg

Quote from: janosbiro on Tue 22/04/2014 20:21:43
This game reduces Civilization to a one-button game. Check it out!

Done, but no point instaling/runing it, can see what it is about by the screenshots, and seems pointless. If all options lead to victory, then there's really no point in playing it, you already won/finished the game... :/

Quote
But maybe there is another choice. Some say the Mayans gave up their cities and moved back to the forest... And there is Fight Club!

And some ppl also do that, some even take "followers" with them. We (our civilization" calls these "cults" and their're all over the globe. It's really up to you to decide what rules you want to follow. Serial killers, criminals, etc, they follow their own set of rules, and they work for them. It's the society in which they live that try to stop them, cause they don't follow the established rules... Is that so bad? Considering you have obviously decided to live in "our society"/civilization?

QuoteI would ask you what is so wrong with what humans did for 90% of their existence, but you would think that I'm joking, right?

Nothing wrong with survival.
However, if all your work is applied at the "simple" task of survival, then you have no time to develop, grown, enrich, etc. You'd be stuck in a stagnant civilization. And instead of using countless of hours writing essays and such here, you would be somewhere out there making your own clothes from animals you just killed to eat...  ;)
There are those who believe that life here began out there...

Ghost

#10
Quote from: Cassiebsg on Tue 22/04/2014 21:18:00
However, if all your work is applied at the "simple" task of survival, then you have no time to develop, grown, enrich, etc. You'd be stuck in a stagnant civilization.

I'd say that if I have to worry about survival only, I'd pour whatever time I have into improving my chances. We did come up with some clever things* over the past and many were born out of a) the need to get better at surviving and b) lucky chance. So at least for a while, a survivor's culture would be in dire need of NOT being stagnant.

__
Domestic animals, irrigation, metalworks, THE AQUEDUCT...

Lasca

QuoteHowever, if all your work is applied at the "simple" task of survival, then you have no time to develop, grown, enrich, etc. You'd be stuck in a stagnant civilization. And instead of using countless of hours writing essays and such here, you would be somewhere out there making your own clothes from animals you just killed to eat...  ;)

I guess this all comes down to what you want out of life, no? Enrichment, development, growt etc. is stimulating but where does it take you in the end, and what do you do with it all? I mean from an individual point of view. If the purpose and what you seek is just being content with life, yourself and what you are, then making clothes from the animal you just killed to eat perhaps isn't so bad. ;) Having more options and more knowledge perhaps isn't always better. Feeling "fulfilled" (in lack of better words) perhaps was easier before civilisation, when YOUR world was a smaller place. Lot's of inventions have created needs instead of satisfying them, no?
I don't know, I and appreciate most aspects of modern civlisation, but sometimes I ask myself where that love (and need) comes from.

Janos Biro

Cassiebsg,

QuoteDone, but no point instaling/runing it, can see what it is about by the screenshots, and seems pointless. If all options lead to victory, then there's really no point in playing it, you already won/finished the game... :/

Exactly! ;)

So, it's really up to you to decide what rules you want to follow, but if you don't follow civilization rules, civilized people will either assimilate you, kill you or ignore you. I personally find the third option very complicated to apply when people tend to sit in lands full of natural resources.

Anthropologist Marshall Sahlins said people had a lot of free time in hunter-gathering societies, and that this idea of having to struggle constantly just to survive is a misconception. I think he is right.
I'm willing to translate from English to Brazilian Portuguese.

miguel

Smart people learn how to cope with what they have. The trick is to go as far as rules go, bend them if we can and just try to be happy.
If I'm not being treated like shit, if I have a job to provide my family with enough comfort, if I have political and religious freedom and if I have time to create then why should I really be miserable and complain about society, famine and the rest?
Honestly, if I do complain then I'm just being an hypocrite. If I really care then I should just take a plane to Africa and help people in need.
Talk, talk, talk, talk. We are all the same. Sorry, Janos.
Working on a RON game!!!!!

ThreeOhFour

Quote from: janosbiro on Tue 22/04/2014 20:21:43
I had no idea this subject could be so insulting to some people.

This is a forum of creative, passionate people. Simply dismissing their creativity and passion with an analytical train of thought that shows a complete lack of empathy for the group you're hoping to engage is going to stir people up a bit, yeah.

Ghost

#15
Quote from: janosbiro on Tue 22/04/2014 20:21:43
I had no idea this subject could be so insulting to some people.
To pick up on that, it's not just your audience (I think ThreeOhFour is already spot on there) but the tone. You have knowledge, that much is clear, but you yourself seem to take cover behind the big names. To quote yourself from the other thread:
Quote from: janosbiro on Tue 22/04/2014 19:16:34
Well, if what theorists say doesn't matter... I'm sorry. I thought it was relevant.
See, they are theorists. Phrasing aside ("If you think what [intelligent people ]say doesn't matter" can be read as extremely arrogant, really) they form theories. You are here at a hobbyist game-making forum. Not a professional one, and not everyone here is a studied man. But we make games and we play games. We're living the theory without knowing about it, you could say.

Basically, what you did is entering a hall full of greasy mechanics who tinker on this heap of scrap metal and told them they should rather go and read the fine works of X. Or learn reading in the first place.

I used to think that if I could just find out what kind of ink and brush and paper Jeff Smith used I could draw stuff just like his very, very great BONE comic series. Silly, or course; tools don't make the art.
Then I thought no, I should just check out what he studied and used as reference material, because then I would understand the rules of how he made his stuff and could just be as great. Not quite as silly but stil futile.
Then I started to draw really, really many many pages full of stuff, and realised what powered ME, and got to grips with my creative sources. That made me*.

It's nice having theories to fall back on. Some are universal and some change so quickly that you can drink a healthy coffee in the morning and read how a morning coffee kills you in the evening. You need to do something with those cool theories. If only prove them wrong. And it's possible to power a fun game purely on tropes and fun without ever knowing about the finer points of human recreation. Games can be wine and caviar and exclusive candlelight. But they can also be egg and a fried slice.

And I'll leave it at that. But both all your threads have been interesting and challenging, so well played.

__
Not "made me anything". It just made me.

qptain Nemo

Quote from: janosbiro on Tue 22/04/2014 07:05:45
it is just that you need enough people doing the hard work for you so it becomes possible to live as an artist or a philosopher... That's why civilization is based on slavery. Slaves can be substituted by machines, but it is not that simple.
Yeah, because there is, like,  no way people can help each other out or divide their duties without slavery, right. Absolutely impossible. When I need my friends / associates to do something for me I always enslave them first and vice-versa.

Also I love how you imply that artistic work is the EASIER kind of work. That's so hilariously telling about your grasp of what you're talking about.

Just one example of just how bollocks your reasoning is.

Janos Biro

QuoteBasically, what you did is entering a hall full of greasy mechanics who tinker on this heap of scrap metal and told them they should rather go and read the fine works of X. Or learn reading in the first place.

Ghost, I had no idea! I take the blame. What can I do to apologize?

I have an idea: let's play a different game. A cooperative game, instead of a competitive one. Let's cooperate to understand and conciliate ideas instead of looking for contradictions and conflicting ideas. Let's try to get the best of what the other people have to say, and forgive the bad reasoning for a while. Instead of focusing in correcting each other and on what we disagree, we could focus on what we agree and what could help the other. What do you say? I know I did a lot of corrections and counterpoints, and now some of you are angry at me. But let's at least try this.

For example, instead of reading "I had no idea this subject could be so insulting to some people" as "I am so smart I insult people with my intelligence", you could read as something like "I am sorry, I had no intention". Instead of reading "If what theorists say doesn't matter" as "If you think what [intelligent people] say doesn't matter", I am sure you could have read in a much more friendly way, like: "I didn't knew bringing this subject here would be such a bad idea".

Believe me, I was trying to be nice.


Ben,

I never dismissed creativity! Creativity is great! I was talking about how SOME cultures see it, because I thought it would be nice to have a different perspective. Come on, let's not make such a big deal about it!


Miguel,

"If you are living comfortably in this society, it would be hypocrisy to criticize it". I came across that fallacy many times. If it were true, we would not have the right to self-criticism.


qptain Nemo,

PLEASE don't be offended by this, just think about it:

Spoiler
Which of your Congolese friends goes down the mines under them aim of a gun to collect coltan for your phone? Which of your Chinese friends assemble the phones in terrible work conditions?
[close]

When I said "hard work" I meant work that generates no satisfaction. Let's be honest, being an artist is hard, but it's not a living hell. It was it's advantages. Not every work has.
I'm willing to translate from English to Brazilian Portuguese.

ThreeOhFour

I've not been offended by anything you said - just pointing out the reasons why I believe your approach is going to offend people.

I could write forever about the place of video games in culture and humanity's development as a species. I don't see the point, though, and I wouldn't be telling you things you didn't know. I don't know what your point is at all - can you sum your thoughts up in a single sentence, for the sake of clarity?

Ghost

Quote from: janosbiro on Wed 23/04/2014 15:17:50
Ghost, I had no idea! I take the blame. What can I do to apologize?
Believe me, I was trying to be nice.

And I do not doubt that. Personally, I tend to read the friendler interpretation anyways and this IS the internet, after all.  I just wanted to point out how it CAN be read- that's why I added your threads being both challenging (in that they offer a controversical view) and entertaining (in that you see them through and have the words to do that).

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