help with bg values + composition + anything else

[Lasca]

So, I'm currently working on a high res movie intro for my next game, and could really use some input on a bg.


This is sthill a sketch, but what I'm working on and would like some input on is first of all, the composition. Are there to many empty spaces? Is the right side of the image too crowded? Would you want a cloud on that sky? etc?
Secondly, I'd love some opinions on the values (the final image will be in colour, doing it in b&w is just my way of working out the values).
Also, if theres anything else, please let me know. I'm having a hard time deciding on the amount of detail to put on the "grass". On one hand, I kind of really like having the big, even surfaces, on the other hand I like the amount of detail on the house, and maybe that clashes with having no detail on the ground. And what about the forest in the background?
Anyways, like I said, still a sketch, but really appreciate any input.
Thanks!
/Lasca

[Giraffadon]

Hey.

I'm liking the half and half cartoon/realism look.
It's a tricky thing to do.

I like the composition, maybe a pond or tree could be added on the left
but the sparsity really adds to the house's lonesomeness.

If there's one thing i'm unsure of, it's the positioning of the shadows relative
to the moon. The shadows would also curve down the hill.

Anyway very nice piece.

[Lasca]

but the sparsity really adds to the house's lonesomeness.

Good point!

If there's one thing i'm unsure of, it's the positioning of the shadows relative
to the moon. The shadows would also curve down the hill.

Yeah, I found the shadows a bit tricky, but I think you right. And the curve! Of course! How could I miss it! I'll play around with the shadows some more.

Thanks for taking your time, and thanks for the compliments!

/Lasca

[UnLady]

Wow! So lovely! It's such a beautiful drawing, hard to find fault with it. But I suppose you want nitpicking so here it goes:

There's something about the road coming straight at the viewer that's a bit off. I think it's because it's on the same direction before the small valley that hides it as it is in the foreground.

Also the curve of the fence (which is very nicely done) is almost but not quite the same as the curve of the foreground "ground" (poor English, crying in it's sleep). And I think the image would gain by having them a bit more.. I dunno, different. Leaning fence,  right sloping ground, something like that. Maybe the post box would sit better on the left, balancing the busier right upper half? Unless, of course, there's a reason it's where it is.

One more tiny thing: there's something in front of the house, left of the path. A boulder? A mound? It's tangent to the shadow now. If the shadow either cuts across it or engulfs by by a wider margin, it would be better. I think.

I'm afraid I'm not up to sketch anything right now and my writing is not feeling very well either so hopefully the above is, after all, helpful.

Thus being said: I'd play the heck out of a game looking like this, even BW. And I'd love to be able to draw like that. Oh my. Great work.

[Lasca]

Thanks UnLady for all your kind words!
I was really impressed by the bg you made posted in the other thread, so the feelings are mutual!
Your points was very helpful and valid, and I'll try making some changes and post it here. Thanks!!

[CaptainD]

I'm no artist so I can't offer anything much constructive, but I do feel moved to say that this is beautifully atmospheric.  Love the starkness of the moon behind the tower.

[Lasca]

Thanks CaptainD!

[Lasca]

Made a quick changeover with a couple of your suggestions.



I'm not really sure. I'm having problem getting the shadow right. The boulders next to the road... I don't know, maybe I should just remove them?
And the "hill-line" behind the left fence, and the road... I really don't know. Maybe it was right to change them, but maybe in a different way than I did?
Decisions, decisions!

[Giraffadon]

I still think it's great but there is a big problem, one which will cast doubt into your mind.
It's the moon. Didn't really wanna point that out with it being a focal point of the shot.
The position you have the moon and it's size are disproportionate to the shadows being cast down onto
the hill. Think of the moon as a torch in a dark room. Any edge that the light hits will cast the darkness in
line. so looking at your left most house edge it ideally needs to move to the left more, or an easier
solution would be to reposition the moon. As i said, with it being the focal point it may not work to move it
and really it's a nice piece so if you can live with it, i'm sure many players will not even notice.

Good work and good luck with the game!

[Ryan Timothy B]

With that low of a moon the shadows should look a little more like this, quick edit:


(I added a gradient, I couldn't help it.. I'm all kinds of evil )

[Lasca]

Giraffadon: Thanks for the feedback and the luck wishing! I agree with you that the shadow still isn't right, but I'm not sure if I really understand what you mean...
However, if Ryan Timoothy's paintover illustrates your point, then I think I get it!
Thanks Ryan for the paintover, I believe your shadows looks better, and probably more realistic. I'll try something in that direction. Thanks!
(and yes, gradients ARE evil!)

[Tramponline]

Call me names, but in a setting like this eff realism, I say!

Of all versions, the first one is still the one with the most 'character', curving shadows or not.

The first one is incredibly strong mood-wise!

You could try (play around) stretching those shadows just a little further, but in any case I'd keep them as narrow & slender as you did (maybe even more so, perhaps?).
It complements the scenery. In both of the other versions the house itself loses a lot of it's charm due to the shadow being too prominent.

The straight shadows against the nice curvy hill makes for some great contrast - a stylistic device - realism seems to interfere with that...
Also, I rather enjoy "the lack of detail" you mentioned (no clouds etc.).
The focus is on the house/moon area. It feels empty (i.e. serves the overall atmosphere), but not too empty. Nice!

I'd definitely love to see a trailer in this exact style! (a bit of a shame b&w is preliminary)

edit: Especially, the direction/ dynamic of your shadow in the original post is great! (You could push the angle even further to the right, if you wanted.)
      I suppose, bottom line of what I suggest is (if I get it me-self , that is), break geometric patterns.

      For example, the tree is very orderly & straight. Parallel to the house and pic's frame. You could make it crooked/slant.
      While playing around with your pic I tilted the tree (almost to the angle of the hill's curve).
      Or placed it on the other side, close to the entrance or 'slightly behind the house' and it all looked interesting.
   
      You could also try to push the tower's shadow somewhat further into the overall shadow
      of the house, just in order to break that fairly straight line it forms now (left side of your shadow).       

[Andail]

Shadows are always really hard to render correctly, especially when there's a sun or moon involved, since they cast shadows in unexpected ways sometimes.

There are actually only a few things that strike me as odd, in any of the versions above.

First, the base of the house is drawn so that it appears to rest on the top of the hill, but still there's a strip of hill (the slightly brighter area) continuing behind it. That doesn't make any sense.

Second - and this becomes even more apparent in Ryan's version - the base of the hill, just like all surfaces facing away from the light source, has to be much darker. This is the tricky thing with a back-lit scene like this; few things are actually hit by light.

Third - faaaar too flat. I'm going to violate the first rule of digital painting here and apply some gradient filters here, because this picture really needs something to happen with all those vast gray surfaces.

I also straightened up the right hand wall, because if you're going to go for some exaggerated, whacky perspective, you'd have to do this equally everywhere, or it'll just look weird.

[Monsieur OUXX]

Ryan Thimothy's suggestions should also apply to the cast shadows of the chimneys and of the tower. I think they should be pointing much more to the left, and much less visible because the roof should be darker.

[Fruitroller]

Hey, i realy like your piece and the cartoony feel of the house.
You already got allot of great advice on the shadowing, so here is my opinion of it.

You should try experiment some more on the values, maybe tone everything down a bit to create some more contrast. I feel that it's way to bright atm for being a night scene.

Light bounces, even on nature. So you can try add some suddle value changes on the house even thou it is supposed to be dark.

The tree has more highlights and just as bright ones, as your metallic surfaces on the roof. That will also make the tree steal allot of the focus away from the house.

The door feels very small compared to some windows. (Especially compared to the window on the left.) Might have to do with some perspective issues. Even if you go for a certain look, it is always good to have some solid guidelines.

Lastly i would probably crop the picture to get rid of some empty space. (dosent feel like the background trees are that important, more like a filler.)

Here is my quick paintover:
[imgzoom]http://s27.postimg.org/6c1u0ec0z/House.png[/imgzoom]

[Frikker]

Not really a criticism of any sort but i would just like to say i love the picture , and that it intrigues me.... Especially the interesting large pipe to the right hand side of the house going into the ground and also the very large scale electrical equipment. Its the sort of image that would entice me into wanting to play this game just to find out whats going on . Well done  

[Andail]

Great paintover, Fruitroller!

[Cassiebsg]

I'm thinking that sometimes realism should be put a bit on the side. The paint overs with the more realistic shadowing/darker, makes the pic too dark in my opinion, and losses some of the impact and strength of the picture. Thus I prefer the lighter picture.

The boulders on the grass plane, have a problem in my opinion. They make the grass plane look "empty". Not that I have a problem that there's just grass, but is there a reason for those rocks there? They just look out of place to me. Maybe you want some decoration along the path? Or you just want a grass plane, easy to maintain? Just food for the brain...
Lovely BG and yes, I want to play this game too!

[Lasca]

Hey everyone!
Thanks for all the criticism! I've been away for a couple of days, so I haven't really had the time to respond. you've all given me alot to work with and think about.
Just some short responses.

@ Tramponlie & Cassiebsg: I'm starting to agree with you about the realism. Trying to make it look "real" is starting to make it look "bad", so I'll probably just go back to trying to do the shadows in a way that interests me. I'll definitly try moving the big shadow both more to the left and to the right! And play around with the tree.
The boulders, I don't really know why put them there. I think they were part of my insecurity regarding details or not details on the plains. Anyways, thank you both for your kind words and your critisism!

@ Andail & Fruitroller:
Thank you for your paintovers and the time put in to make them! Both very good! However, they are also both to dark for me. You do have a point that both the sky and the plains could use some gradients, but I wanted to put them in contrast to the house, thus the flatness. Maybe it looks flat, maybe it contributes to the composition, maybe neither or both, but either way I'll definitly play around with your suggestions. Fruitroller, you might be right that it's too bright for a night scene, but I'm planning of working with some nice blues, and I hope that will do the job. But i do see a real point in making the house darker and adding some more contrasts. And the darker sky might be a good idea. And I really like the cross on the tower window. Should have thought of that myself!
Regarding the windows and doors, you're right. The door does look small! I'll see what I can do about it. The scene will however only be visible for a couple of seconds, so perhaps I'll get away with it!
Your cropping looks really nice, but I want the bigger image to point out the isolation of the house. I agree that your cropping makes for a better composed picture, but there's also a story to tell!
Andail: I'm going to see if I can pull it of without the shadowing of the hill, even though it's faaaaar to flat But the idea in my head wants me to give it a shot.
You're right about the rightmost wall though! I'm not really sure what I was thinking.

Frikker: Well hopefully you'll get a chance to discover it for yourself! In a couple of years at best, with my workpace

Thanks again everyone for all the interest and opinions regarding the image. I'm really happy to be part of this community! I'll post again as soon as I've done som more work on the image!
/Lasca

[Monsieur OUXX]

Still, the person who made the most important remark was Ryan Timothy