The power of the weakness

[Ghost]

a) My initial post was neither funny nor wise; it derailed a thread and I am sorry about that. My fault really.

b) After a lengthy and verbose discussion about how there are too many games, how consumerism is bad, how people should better try to have less than more, now defending the purchase of a new computer with the Statement that it isn't luxury as long as it just plays LA Noir DOES sound hypocrite as hell.

[Gribbler]

you can't possible compare the act of buying a better computer with buying a "muscle-car from the 70's". Consoles are much worse.

Yep. My 6-year old PS3 required so much coal it was getting tiresome. Not to mention smog in the apartment. I sold it and bought PS4 - now I feed it plutonium and it's so much safer and cleaner!

[Ghost]

Yep. My 6-year old PS3 required so much coal it was getting tiresome.

Kiiiids these days. I'm still using a PS2 and it is glorious! They work by herding electric eels.

[Gribbler]

Kiiiids these days. I'm still using a PS2 and it is glorious! They work by herding electric eels.

Hey! I still keep my PS1 and use it as a training bike occasionally!

[CaptainD]

Wish I still had my hand-cranked Atari ST

[Ghost]

Hey! I still keep my PS1 and use it as a training bike occasionally!

If you now tell me you have a copy of DARKSTALKERS I may have to visit one day! I'll bring snacks! Seriously. You name them, I bring them.

[Janos Biro]

I'm really sorry for staying off topic, but I'm being accused of hypocrisy and I have the right to defend myself.

miguel and Ghost,

I don't think I'm smarter than anyone here, that's why I'm sure you all can understand what I'm saying. It WOULD be hypocrisy if I stated anywhere that people SHOULD stop buying things. I never said that, and I gave you my reasons for believing that stop buying has nothing to do with the problem I addressed. Your tendency to misinterpret me makes me think you feel guilty about buying stuff made by people working in terrible conditions, and you are trying to deal with this guilt by mocking those who bring this fact to your attention. It's not "gaming industry evil plots". People are being explored because of historical conditions, and this will keep happening either you buy things or you don't, because consuming "too much" is not the cause of capitalism. The production system is the cause of poverty, and there's nothing you can do about it as a consumer. Only politically aware citizens can do something about it. Your insistence in the idea that I should stop consuming computers because I know they are a product of exploration is illogical. Poor people wont get better jobs just because I refrain from having computers. Think about it before you say something like that. My main point in that old topic was not about what I DEFEND, was about a FACT. You can't deny that fact by pointing to contradictions in my personal attitude. Blaming consumers for poverty in India and Africa is like blaming old catholic ladies for the Inquisition and the Holy Wars.

What is happening here sounds to me as the reaction of people who want to deny reality by mocking people who point at this reality. My attitude towards this problem goes way beyond a consumer choice. I feel bad about people being explored too, but I deal with it by doing more than useless "simple living". I do it by political activism. If you don't want to do the same, fine. But don't come trying to mock me just so you can feel less guilty about it. If you believe that stop buying is the best you can do, then do it. I don't think it is the best I can do, so I do something else instead. But don't matter what you do, the fact that some things are made by people working in terrible conditions remains true, even if we don't give a shit about it. What bothers me is that your comment seem to try to deny that, like saying: Janos says computers are made of minerals extracted by war prisoners in Congo, by he buys computers too, therefore he is full of bullshit, therefore the game industry have nothing to do with what's going on in Congo, therefore I can use my computer in peace...

[Ghost]

if I stated anywhere that people SHOULD stop buying things. I never said that

But you made multiple threads that were all about people who said things you said you agreed with, and you continued all of these threads multiple pages, bringing in more quotes to strengthen the quotes you have already made. If you never were never in any agreement with what you quoted, why quoting it in the first place? Because usually when someone remains passionate about a point and goes to some lengths to defend it, he or she stands "behind the issue" at least a bit.
[edit]
And that was all my initial post was indeed poking fun at: That after using an argument to strengthen your position, now doing an action that makes it so easy to repeat the argument against your position. In your case it was someone asking a musician if his music was worth it that someone has to dig up the metal for his guitar under terms of child labour, and that was somehow a valid point against consumerism and art and civilisation.

Your tendency to misinterpret me makes me think you feel guilty about buying stuff made by people working in terrible conditions, and you are trying to deal with this guilty by mocking those who bring this fact to your attention.

This is cold reading at ist best. You feel misinterpreted. I think my view on your argumentation is justified. But like you already did, and are now again doing, stop complaining about assumptions being made and in the same sentence making assumptions.

[Janos Biro]

Ghost,

Sigh... NOTHING of what I said or quoted implies in the idea that buying computers is wrong. You keep arguing like that was the case. How can I understand that you did not misinterpreted me? The issue was NEVER about buying or not buying. If you read it like that... What can I say, besides that you were reading it wrong?

So I can understand you don't feel guilty about buying things made by people working in terrible conditions? What do you feel about it?

[Ghost]

NOTHING of what I said or quoted implies in the idea that buying computers is wrong.

That's good, because it would make a terrible argument.

You keep arguing like that was the case.

I'm not. Right now I am saying that you spent many words on a linear discussion. This discussion lead from games being too Long to there being too many games to civilisation being flawed. This made me and several others think that you somehow supported that view. If that is not the case, then consider much of what I said null and void.
Currently you seem to be stating that you aren't really believing in that argument. Just in the facts behind the argument.
So I admit I am confused.

Still, since this seems not to trigger a lock I'm interested in seeing it through

[Janos Biro]

...

I think I get it. When you read what someone writes, you aim at understanding what that person believes, rather than looking at the reality that person is pointing to. Is that right?

If you were not arguing like my argument is that buying computers is wrong, why you said it was hypocrisy to point to how computers are made and to buy a new computer? Where is the hypocrisy, if you understood I never said buying computers is wrong?

I know, my discussion back there was pretty radical, pretty boring, pretty strange and pretty useless. I'm sorry, okay? Will you ever forgive me? What bothers you, Ghost? Why you kept that in your mind until now? I totally support the view I presented, but this view never had anything to do with buying or not buying computers.

What I said in this topic was simply that what I personally think about it doesn't matter, and not that I do not believe in what I said, you see? You keep thinking in terms of what I believe or not. What is the relevance of this? Does it change the fact?

[Ghost]

I think I get it. When you read what someone writes, you aim at understanding what that person believes, rather than looking at the reality that person is pointing to. Is that right?

I think we've got it now, yes. I never wanted to say that you buying a new computer is a wrong, and I never wanted to make you appear a "bad person" just because you did buy a new computer.

If you were not arguing like my argument is that buying computers is wrong, why you said it was hypocrisy to point to how computers are made and buying a new computer? Where is the hypocrisy, if you understood I never said buying computers is wrong?

The contradition in my eye was that you first used the "child slaves dig up ore and that is terrible, and a musician should question that!" argument. I understand it was not YOU saying that line, so I don't pull any punches here: It's a silly, tearful and pretentious argument.
Then, however, you act like 99% of the world and just accept the bad things and get a new computer anyway. Thus my "what about the slave kids" mockery. But also kudos for you You're just like us

I feel relieved we could clear that up

[Gribbler]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

[Janos Biro]

Ghost,

Child slaves DO dig up ore for our computers parts, and this IS really terrible, and we SHOULD do something about it. But this situation comes long before computers being invented and will remain the same even if people magically cease to use computers right now. It has nothing to do with individual consumption practices. Even if you and I could stop using computers, our society can't. Banks need it, hospitals need it, schools need it, every little shop need it. The fact that we need something doesn't nullifies the fact that is made by "slaves". Only better working conditions can change that. You can achieve that by organizing political actions against those who use "slaves", by bringing them to justice. See? It's really simple. I hope we can be friends now.

[Ghost]

See? It's really simple.

Wow, that makes perfect sense now and I am grateful to have it all spelled out to me. Much wow

[tanito0]

Dudes, I think that what we are discussing here is computer GAMING, not computer use in general. Obviously, without computers, a crysis would explode in the World as things are up to 2014.

[Ghost]

Dudes, I think that what we are discussing here is computer GAMING, not computer use in general. Obviously, without computers, a crysis would explode in the World as things are up to 2014.

Yes, that little tete-a-tete here was a bit of a fallout from a couple other threads. I think I started it. Sorry.


I'm serious about the PS2 though. That thing is unkillable. In the time I own it a friend blasted through three XBoxes. Power to the weak indeed. And SSX Tricky is glorious

[Gribbler]

I'm serious about the PS2 though. That thing is unkillable. In the time I own it a friend blasted through three XBoxes. Power to the weak indeed. And SSX Tricky is glorious.

"It's tricky! It's tri-tri-tri-tricky!"

[Khris]

Your tendency to misinterpret me makes me think you feel guilty about buying stuff made by people working in terrible conditions, and you are trying to deal with this guilty by mocking those who bring this fact to your attention.

Wow. I hope I don't have to read something as vomit inducing as this on here again, ever.

[Janos Biro]

Sorry about that, Khris.