Thoughts about this Gateway upgrade?

Started by HandsFree, Sun 27/07/2014 20:03:30

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HandsFree

Since we're not allowed to discuss it in the gips forum: are there any opinions about Legend's game 'Gateway'?
I started a remake a few years ago but concluded that the original actually didn't need an update. Still every now and then I load it up though...

Here's a playable demo of what I have so far (well I'm a bit furhter then that), it contains the gameplay in Gateway station until you are allowed to go on your first flight.
Try the demo here

So far it has been mentioned that a map of Gateway would be handy. Apart from the fact that I can't draw, I suppose it would be possible to show a map (consisting of pipes and hyphens) on the dataman. But then I run into a continuity problem: if you already need a map on gateway, you'll need one much more on the unknown planets you'll visit and it doesn't make sense that you'll have a map there...

Any thoughts on this or the game mechanics of the original game vs the remake?
See also the gips thread

Ghost

Absolutely personal opinion: Legend's games were my literal gateway from interactive fiction to point and click. I played Gateway and a few other titles and was fascinated by the graphics complimenting the familiar text based interface. While I never finished Gateway I still remember that sense of wonder it caused in a younger me, the feeling to have a vast world to explore, and many many actions at my disposal. So with retro glasses firmly in place I'd say any remake that remains faithful to the original is a good thing.

I do admit though that I've come to prefer the more dynamic and "cinematic" vibe of graphical point and click. At their best, they are like playing a movie and I do enjoy seeing something others made "just for me to enjoy". From that perspective I daresay that no matter how great and cool your remake, the interface alone will probably make younger gamers (who haven't earned their retro glasses yet) hesitant to even try it out.

Since that's rarely a valid argument on a forum dedicated to already "old, niche, and utterly dead (only not really)" games... I say go for it full speed :D

Babar

I don't think simply upscaling the BGs is a good idea. The blurry look doesn't fit well. Still, if you're doing a one-to-one remake, including the same graphics, I'd recommend at least improving where you can: the GUI. You've already improved it partly, maybe remove the borders entirely? They don't really seem necessary. You could have the inventory as a pop-down thing from the top, and simplify the examine/use thing with the mouse?
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mkennedy

#3
For the maps simple diagrams of boxes for the rooms connected by lines to show pathways should be fine, You don't need to be terribly artistic. Though I understand your point about not mapping planets you haven't explored yet. It'd be great if somebody came up with an automap module, but I imagine that would be quite difficult to code in AGS. Perhaps put the maps for the rest of the planets in a separate folder, for those who really need them. Are the areas at least laid out in a fairly logical manner that would make mapping by the player reasonably easy?

Cassiebsg

#4
I don't know Gateway, maybe I should give it a try one of these days. :)

Since a map doesn't appear to have been something that the original had, adding one would be called an extra feature. ;)

You have two or three options here, as far as I can see.
1) Give the maps to all areas to the player at request. (though this would be kind of a cheat sheet).
2) Give the map to the Station (and assume that the player in real situation, should know where to go) but leave the rest out.
3) Like mkennedy suggested, creating a module script to "automap". You could have either the entire map drawn in a GUI/room with only the start room visible, and then make visible/unblock the next room, once the player has moved to it. This would be, for me, the best way to include a map. It would sorta be equal to the player drawing it by hand on a piece of paper, like we used to do in the old days. ;)

PS - My skills in coding are quite lacking, but really, I can't see how it could be much more complicated than a type of check "has player been to room 1"? if true, show map_room1. And so on... and "if player is in room 3" then show "you are here" in map_room3... But I do have a tendency to think "this should be easy and basic" and then find out that it's not as strait forward as I thought... ;)
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Alberth

Depends on how much information you want to give away. If you draw rooms at fixed places, the coding shouldn't be too hard, but why is there such a large space between these rooms???
Maybe I should explore a little bit more there :p

HandsFree

Quote from: Ghost on Mon 28/07/2014 01:24:58
I daresay that no matter how great and cool your remake, the interface alone will probably make younger gamers (who haven't earned their retro glasses yet) hesitant to even try it out.
Quote from: Babar on Mon 28/07/2014 03:05:56
The blurry look doesn't fit well. Still, if you're doing a one-to-one remake, including the same graphics, I'd recommend at least improving where you can: the GUI. You've already improved it partly, maybe remove the borders entirely?
That's actually why I'm on the fence about whether a remake of Gateway can add anything useful.
Personally I like the graphics enlarged this far, but enlarging them any further doesn't look good to my eyes. That's why I need those borders.
Of course I could keep the borders but not use them as gui and do the regular 2-action gameplay (look/act).

But on the other hand I like the old school vibe it gives with its room descriptions and 'look under', 'stand on' actions. But true, you can just play the original game for that.

As for maps: I mentioned the original doesn't have them because that means there are no graphics for that, and I can't draw. Still it should be possible to 'write' them with pipes and hyphens, but turning those on and off will be very complex. I could write them and then make a screenshot and use pictures I suppose, but still, with many different areas in the game it will be complex but not undoable.
But the thing is, there are also sections in the game where there should be no map. Like when you have to move through series of portals. And for those who know the game: virtual reality also plays a role. So at this point I'm thinking a map will cause more problems than it solves, but I'll keep it in mind.
(just a map for the Gateway station would be possible of course, but is that really needed?)

Quote from: Alberth on Tue 29/07/2014 10:29:30
but why is there such a large space between these rooms???
Maybe I should explore a little bit more there :p
What do you mean? Are there too many corridors? In most cases there's one corridor between rooms of interest. Or do you mean something else?

Alberth

Quote from: HandsFree on Tue 29/07/2014 11:28:59
Quote from: Alberth on Tue 29/07/2014 10:29:30
but why is there such a large space between these rooms???
Maybe I should explore a little bit more there :p
What do you mean? Are there too many corridors? In most cases there's one corridor between rooms of interest. Or do you mean something else?
Suppose the program normally draws new rooms with a little space between the rooms (say 1 cm or 1/2 inch or so). So as you explore, the program nicely draws an area filled with rectangular-ish rooms connected with each other, and a little space around every room.

Now you go 'south' from one room, and the program draws the new room 10 cm (or 5 inch or so) below the room you left instead of the usual 1 cm (1/2 inch). From the new room, if you go 'east' or 'west', it's again the normal small amount of space. In other words, there is a lot of empty space between two rows of rooms. What does this tell you?

1. Between rooms with only a little space, there is nothing in between any more (likely).
2. Between rooms with large amount of space.... well who knows, there might be something there????

In other words, just the position where a program draws rooms (if you draw each room at a fixed location at the screen) already gives clues to the player. If you make a map by hand, this will not happen.

mkennedy

Actually, given the text based nature of the original you may be better off using a parser based engine like Adrift or Quest. Plus they both have support for automap, though their graphics abilities may not be as robust as AGS.

HandsFree

Back on this one!
As mentioned above (long ago) there was a request for maps, so the dataman now has the main levels of Gateway.
I also redid the first day so it's not so linear as the demo was. You can do most things at any time now.




Part 1 (of 3) is done.

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