The left click - right click dilemma

[Mr Underhill]

Hey everyone! I'm new around here, so, hey everyone!

There's this thing that's been on my mind, and I figured the best place to ask was this forum where everyone is into, well, adventure games - it's about object/character interaction in a 2d point and click adventure.
Me and my small crew of other 2 are working on such a game (not in AGS,though), and I've always been interested, with each new adventure game played, on how they'd implement the look at / use stuff. Verb coin seemed at the time of CMI to be THE way to go, but then I think the height of streamlining (and not over-simplification) was the one click look, one click use. But therein lies the question: which is best suited for which?

I'll explain in more detail. In our game, there are lots and lots of observation that the character you're playing is making on the stuff he examins (usually 2, but up to 4). The game's a lucas-y spoof of Lovecraftian horror stuff, so yes, all the feedback you're getting from your character examining stuff goes towards "the funnies". Now, in most games left click is asigned to using, right click to examining. But when you do that - and the example that comes to mind is Primordia - I think 9 times out of 10 the player won't bother to right click, and will go straight to left clicking, since it's apparent that the look at mechanic is mostly optional (even though in that particular game, too, it's essential here and there).

So I'm pretty hellbent on going the other way around: left click examine, right click use. Except I haven't seen that implemented yet, and that's what I'm here to ask you guys: what do you think? Are there other games doing this? Is it completely retarded and forcing the player to look at stuff? (well, examining is essential in our game). It kind of makes sense to me, since examining will tell the player whether it's worth bothering to right click, rather than just going ahead and 'using' everything and seeing what works and what doesn't. Then again, I don't remember seeing this in other games (granted, I haven't played everything out there...).I'm real curious to see what people with experience in point and clicks think, whether it's from a player or a developer point of view, or both. Thanks in advance!

[CaptainD]

We've had this discussion before and opinion seems to be pretty polarised.  I prefer LMB=Interact, RMB=Look, but everyone has their own favourite method.  I have verb-coins but have enjoyed games using them (CoMI being a great example!), so I think if you can decide what you as a dev team want to use, just stick with it.  You're never going to get a unanimous opinion from the AG community, we all just have different preferences!

[Mr Underhill]

Well, that's a good thing to hear about the polarization, and sorry if this thread's subject has already been covered.

What I'm saying is I'm glad there's not a unanimity one way or the other, that way I guess we'll just take the risk and that's that. Well, people will download the demo and hopefully let us know, that'll be an interesting experiment.

[CaptainD]

Well, that's a good thing to hear about the polarization, and sorry if this thread's subject has already been covered.

I only really remember because I was the one that asked the question last time!   (& I very much doubt I was the first to do so.)

[Radiant]

Bear in mind that you should not take the interface that most people love, but the interface that least people hate. Because nobody is going to play your game specifically for its interface, but people who hate your interface will immediately stop playing your game.

Now while not everybody prefers the left-use right-look interface, nobody seems to have a problem with it either. Conversely, while many people really like verbcoins, many other people hate them with a passion. We could get into details as to why, but the bottom line is simply that verbcoins are polarizing whereas the two-button interface is not. For example, Ali posted that common feedback on Nelly Cootalot is that numerous players don't understand its verbcoin interface.

So the big picture is that using a verbcoin will cost you a fair amount of players.

[selmiak]

So I'm pretty hellbent on going the other way around: left click examine, right click use. Except I haven't seen that implemented yet, ...

Beneath a Steel Sky uses the 2 button controls exactly like this. And since most modern adventures with 2 button interface do it the other way around I prefer the switched BASS interface. So the actual game BASS is confusing to get into, but once you did the switch in your head you get used to it and like it.

So do what you like (btw, I hate verbcoins), you can't force the player to play a specific way. I mean, what is stopping the player from always rightclicking to only interact without looking instead of always leftclicking?

[Snarky]

I'm one of the people who hates right-click-interact/left-click-look (it's contrary to the basic, standard semantics of the two mouse buttons in practically every application), so I'd strongly urge you not to go that way. Also, I don't buy that people skip looking in Primordia because it's on the right-click (personally I always look at everything, unless the game is particularly, pointlessly verbose; I imagine it's more a matter of individual differences in play-style), and I don't think switching the buttons around is going to make much difference to people's look-inclination: for myself it might even make me less likely to look, since if the UI annoys me I'd like to minimize the number of interactions.

Anyway, it's pretty easy to make it configurable, so if you're convinced it's a good idea I think you should at least give players the option to switch from your default, terrible mapping to the standard one.

[Mr Underhill]

Thanks for the replies, everybody!

@Radiant: good point about not hate rather than love, I'll definitely keep that in mind or write it down or something.
@Selmiak: see, now, there are few ways of telling one's getting old. One of them is not remembering the very mouse scheme one claims hasn't seen implemented is in one of his favorite game (which one hasn't played for 10+ years, but that's no excuse). Just one more reason/excuse to track down BASS and play it again!
@Snarky: I get what you're saying, I only wish I knew how many of you guys are out there

[Crimson Wizard]

+1 to what Radiant sais, when it comes to questions of design it is more important to choose least hated variant, than aim for vague perfection.

And, in such a lucky case when the dilemma is between two mouse buttons, then just let users decide for themselves by adding a switch in game setup. You won't loose much time doing this, and get more people who love you


EDIT: There perhaps could be other ways to hint players to look around more than putting Look command on most used button?

[Mr Underhill]

Is there? I guess it ultimately boils down to what kind of player you are - I'm not really a completionist, e.g.  I left-clicked my way through most of Primordia and ACCIDENTALLY discovered the right click actually did something after quite some time, but I may a) be quite a dimwit, b) not be very representative of adventure gamers. One way of "forcing it" is having the player have to look at something before discussing / using it, even though he did left-click (use) it before. It's really, really oldschool but I like the idea of such throwbacks to more non-streamlined gameplay. Speaking of Primordia, it did that too, only wasn't very evident about it, so I guess most people had to resort to a walkthrough to figure that out (I know I did...).

Anywho, I'm sure glad I've discovered these forums and like-minded gamers and developers, looking forward to discussing everything adventure-related!

[Snarky]

I think most experienced adventure gamers will be familiar enough with left-click-interact/right-click-look that they're unlikely not to realize it's available. For newbies, you could add a tutorial (some of the Blackwell games do this), and perhaps make one of the first puzzles depend on looking. (The most obvious way, and in my opinion one of the best, to do this is to only make a certain hotspot available after examination. For example, you examine a desk and find a hidden button. In this case you should probably give a clue if the player simply tries to interact with it.)

[CaptainD]

I actually managed to design a game that could be completed without using the Look function at all.  It wasn't intentional!  (I added in a couple of things after that:grin:)

Then it turned out that one of the team members for Troll Song had been play-testing it for ages without ever realising that right-click was Look!  (At least with that there was an excuse, since the game uses a verb interface, but still... it was pretty embarrassing to realise you could go through the whole thing without looking.)

One interesting technique that was used in The Book of Unwritten Tales was the the first Interact command was Look, so you couldn't interact with something without having looked at it first.  You could still right-click to look again afterwards if you wanted.

[Calin Leafshade]

Eternally Us go a lot of play outside the hardcore adventure gamer community and many people just didn't understand that you could look at things with a right click(Which is required for a puzzle).
So some kind of tutorial is probably needed for the adventurally challenged in the population.

[Fitz]

So some kind of tutorial is probably needed for the adventurally challenged in the population.

Yeah, you can make your game manuals as in-depth as humanly possible -- but most people won't read them, anyway, and use their index fingers to scratch their heads, instead I've devised a slightly more complex GUI for my current game -- with left-click for interactions and right-click for switching between Walk, Look and Interact (all of which are crucial for the gameplay mechanics). So, to avoid having to explain it outside the game -- and the very real possibility that most people wouldn't have a clue how to play it for reasons mentioned above -- I made a short introduction to the GUI in the guise of the main character's simple workout routine.

And speaking of clunky GUI's -- anyone remember different modes in Little Big Adventure? Replayed it just last week -- and it took a while to get used to the running mode being triggered by F2, sneaking with F4 and the very basic ability to punch someone being available only in Aggressive mode under F3. And then, just when I got perfectly used to it, in LBA 2 (which I replayed right afterwards) they switched the hotkeys for said modes from F1 through F4 to F5 through F8

[Radiant]

It won't cost you anything to add a display or message box in the first room pointing out that "right button = look, people!" As this thread proves, not everybody finds this intuitive.

[Mr Underhill]

Duly noted. Letting people know about which is which as unobtrusively as possible and letting them do the old switcheroo if they feel like it is definitely the way to go, it seems.

[Cassiebsg]

Personally I still prefer a sierra/verb coin system, rather than left/right click, for some reason the left/right click games always feel like "easy" to me... Guess I just enjoy the redundancy that makes talking to a person different than using a person.
But on the mouse clicks, I rather have the left for walking/interact and right for look. This thus comes to the point that CaptainD discovered; the possibility of going through the game without even looking at things. Or clicking in a hotspot by mistake because all you wanted to do was walk there and not pickup something up... I "solved" that problem of accidental picking/interacting by adding a check to make sure the player had looked at the hotspot prior to interact with it.

Giving the possibility to switch is a good one, since I also get annoyed if the mouse buttons are working "the wrong way"... try switching your Windows mouse buttons, and see if you like it.

[MiteWiseacreLives!]

Make sure the Icon at least changes when you hover over a 'Pick-Up' hotspot as apposed to a 'Walking' area! I feel so cheated, probably like Cassiebsg, when I go to walk somewhere and miraculously solve a puzzle I didn't know existed
But the suggestion of having a simple puzzle right at the start that requires you to 'Look' will likely train the user for the rest of the game, IMHO.

[RickJ]

Hehe, well the first thing the player picks up could be some sort of bomb or other equally hazardous device.  If you look first you learn what it is and what is required to safely interact with the device.  Otherwise you eventually meet with misfortune.   It only need be done once; the player will learn quickly!

[Stupot]

Having a 'look' button is a bit of a trap. The player thinks they don't need to use it because it just gives funny but pointless descriptions, and the designer thinks they just need to provide funny but pointless descriptions. Some games refer to it as 'examine' which is much healthier for all concerned. We should get into this habit. Players will want to use it as it is part of the exploration/investigation process, and designers will think more about how to justify having that button in the first place.