What did you make of the FMV games of the 90s? And, can they be made in AGS?

[Noto]

The latter question's been on my mind for some time, especially after checking out the cult-classic point-and-click Noctropolis, which was really recently released on Steam. If you've not heard of the game before, it's essentially a product of the FMV-craze in the 90s. It attempts to utilize real actors as sprites as well as other elements like live action footage that's integrated into the core gameplay. It was definitely one of the more mysterious and interesting titles from that subgenre, so I was happy to check it out. And, in a lot of ways it was a huge disappointment, but visually and atmospherically it was absolutely amazing.

I've found this to be somewhat of a recurring theme in point-and-click FMV games I've played -- games like Bloodnet, Synnergist, Harvester, Ripper, Phantasmagoria, and of course all the older Tex Murphy games. I love these all to death, for various reasons, but for me the genre never quite reached its potential. While many games from the era were visually stunning and had a real out-of-this-world atmosphere, they failed on other fronts like storytelling and design. My love for that subgenre and its potential makes me think -- just how possible is it to make one of these games in AGS? Some would be easier than others (Harvester I think would be very easy to replicate), but something like Noctropolis and seems very difficult.

Thoughts?

[MiteWiseacreLives!]

I think, back then, we thought they were the way of the future... but they turned out to be pretty ugly (IMHO)... Wing Commander III + was pretty cool, but it was mostly just cutscenes and not an adventure game of course...

[Mandle]

The best lets plays I have seen of the genre:

CLICK HERE

[Azure]

Not  sure about AGS but for modern FMV games check out Her Story and Contradiction.

[m0ds]

There have been 1 or 2 AGS FMV style games. I can't remember the name of them or the creator but one was set in space/sci fi setting? As you might expect, the filesize was about 2gb. I also had a joke one in the works - I got somewhat fed up of all the video conversions so have it on hold for now. It's not incredibly hard to make one, but I have to disagree - I think FMV games never reached a pinnacle because there simply isn't a pinnacle to reach in that direction. How far can you push point & click mechanics with video footage? There's only so much you can do with design where you have to play video clips every so often or frequently. A bunch of TellTale games are pretty much FMV's with digital graphics instead? I personally found Noctropolis to be on the lighter side of FMV, compared to say - Under A Killing Moon or The X Files adventure. For a start it originally came on 1 CD, unlike most other FMV games that came on 5 or 6! And in my mind was more point & click than FMV. Most if not all adventure gamers are probably happy to play them, but no-one has made one for a decade, I think it goes to show their true popularity (let alone the resources required to make one). There may be life left in FMV yet and perhaps their true potential lies outside of the commercial realm, but I don't think it'd be sane/wise to think you can totally re-invent the wheel there... That said there is definitely technology around today that wasn't back when the last FMV came out which could certainly spruce things up, but it would seem that digitizing characters (ie Kevin Spacey in Call of Duty) is just the popular method now rather than video clips of them.

[Cassiebsg]

Actually, I hated it, and am glad it's "gone"...
For some reason, it just cut my immersion.

[Noto]

The best lets plays I have seen of the genre:

CLICK HERE

Love Retsupurae's riff on it too! They recently started a new one with Diabetus.

There have been 1 or 2 AGS FMV style games. I can't remember the name of them or the creator but one was set in space/sci fi setting? As you might expect, the filesize was about 2gb. I also had a joke one in the works - I got somewhat fed up of all the video conversions so have it on hold for now. It's not incredibly hard to make one, but I have to disagree - I think FMV games never reached a pinnacle because there simply isn't a pinnacle to reach in that direction. How far can you push point & click mechanics with video footage? There's only so much you can do with design where you have to play video clips every so often or frequently. A bunch of TellTale games are pretty much FMV's with digital graphics instead? I personally found Noctropolis to be on the lighter side of FMV, compared to say - Under A Killing Moon or The X Files adventure. For a start it originally came on 1 CD, unlike most other FMV games that came on 5 or 6! And in my mind was more point & click than FMV. Most if not all adventure gamers are probably happy to play them, but no-one has made one for a decade, I think it goes to show their true popularity (let alone the resources required to make one). There may be life left in FMV yet and perhaps their true potential lies outside of the commercial realm, but I don't think it'd be sane/wise to think you can totally re-invent the wheel there... That said there is definitely technology around today that wasn't back when the last FMV came out which could certainly spruce things up, but it would seem that digitizing characters (ie Kevin Spacey in Call of Duty) is just the popular method now rather than video clips of them.

Huh, interesting! I never thought of it that way. That could very well be the case, and it would explain why none have in fact been truly great games. I guess the reason I consider the potential in them is because point-and-clicks as a whole are so similar to movies. Both are centered around and driven by their narrative, plot, and characters. But I believe point-and-clicks can offer a new layer in the sense that they're interactive -- it being the player that guides the story along. Taking that into thought made me feel like they have a huge potential as a medium, and seeing as there's no more realistic way to convey emotion than acting and video, you put the two together and you can have something real amazing, right? That's what I've always thought. But I guess it would have to be done real effectively, because often it would alienate art critics, movie-lovers, and the gaming crowd alike.

Telltale's adventures are probably real close to the best FMV is going to get, minus the FMV itself. Actually, Heavy Rain and Beyond: Two Souls, as terrible as I found them, also fit into this category. Noctropolis was definitely moreso an adventure game first with FMV elements just added in, like you said. It has to be a good sort of balance depending on what you want to achieve because otherwise it just becomes a mess when it's a game like "Ripper".

I agree completely. They weren't too popular, and I think people have always found them a curiosity. It's been a long time since any big ones were made, and that's probably for a good reason, but I think they do have the potential to have new life breathed into them. I recently saw a game on Steam called "MISSING" which called back to the era, and it wasn't that good either, but it definitely stirred my inspiration and curiosity a bit more. And on the point of new technology, that's probably a key component to it all. People aren't making them because at the time that was the new and innovative thing. The modern FMV would definitely be something like Heavy Rain, or any game from Quantic Dream's library. There's no real reason to go back unless it's purely for style or nostalgia, sort of like how people make so many retro 2D platformers nowadays. Of course, those were always an inherently and objectively more effective genre, so it'd make sense why those made a comeback while FMVs stayed in the past.

[Adeel]

I also had a joke one in the works - I got somewhat fed up of all the video conversions so have it on hold for now.

Hahaha, the video cracked me up! You got to make this game someday, Mark!

[Mandle]

I also had a joke one in the works - I got somewhat fed up of all the video conversions so have it on hold for now.

Hahaha, the video cracked me up! You got to make this game someday, Mark!

+1

[Monsieur OUXX]

It's very simple really :

1) They often looked awful because of poor compression quality and space limitations
2) They were often poorly written and looked more like soap opera than actual cinematics
3) They were often used as a substitute for gameplay and didn't fit.

If you overcome all that, then why not.

[Mandle]

Oh my...I just realised that my incomplete September MAGS entry (Stephen King theme) that had to be put on hold because of some health issues my wife went through is actually an attempt at an FMV game!!!

This is one of the many projects I have lined up to work on over the winter break, and is near the top of the list, so I will update in here if progress goes well...

SPOILER:

Spoiler

It won't...

[close]

[m0ds]

Monsiuer Ex, ha certainly so, but it still doesn't overcome

Click something > Play a video file.
Click something else > Play a video file.
Repeat til end

May as well just watch a movie??

FMV could be described as "over-glorified pause button". Or maybe even "DVD menu's before DVD menu's existed, literally, a week before"

My extra view, thanks also for your comments Noto: Point & click mechanics are not exactly godlike gameplay mechanics, we know this. It is often the same mechanics repackaged, sometimes they come new and fresh in a way that revitalizes things. FMV's at best come with a stripped down version of them, that can barely be reproduced in any new or intuitive way, it always results in click something play movie file. And you get one of two directions, we didn't bother to film a video clip for that mouse click, or we did - but it's probably a dialogue puzzle. Over the years I think people started to really experience bouts of immersion. They may call them "graphics" or whatever, but it's just another way of describing immersion, something FMV's would drop you into and rip you out of at the click of a mouse. I'm not saying they can't be immersive, just - at least with a movie shit doesn't stop for you to click buttons. It's just an odd form of storytelling, if it's a game, make it a game, with 3d or 2d graphics. If it's a film, make it a film, with that 100 year advantage of people knowing how they work, flow and immerse. FMV's tried to invent a new area of point and clicks and well, not much to say other than it was a failed attempt, possibly completely motivated by corporate curiosity...or greed, whatnot. FMV are a product of an experiment. But then I still think 3D is the same - possibly unconcluded experiment but a clear conclusion for a lot of people. FMV's are like a manufactured entity, they never spawned from creativity or need really. Just my opinion...it's true that games like Her Story look intuitive and interesting. But maybe that's because there are no other FMV's being made whatsoever

ps thanks! yes will try to finish it or get it to demo stage at least

[SilverSpook]

On the one hand, I'd argue a lot of the modern point-n-clicks, especially the Wadjet Eye titles are made and broken on the "cinematic" angle of the games.  While the puzzles are good, they are not really the biggest selling point.  It's the story, the characters and the acting that sells the games.  Especially in the most recent games, like Technobabylon, the way most of the game plays out is like low-resolution still-image movie with high-resolution voice acting and quality acting.  You get a portrait, with some expression (essentially pared-down acting), and a solid voice over.  The narratives are spot-on, don't drag, and are always interesting, and I think that's why WE has done so well, more than anything else.  If there's something to say about the puzzle design, it's that modern puzzle design has "less THERE there", in that it does not get in the way of the story -- that's the real innovation. 

To put it more crassly, the modern puzzles are easier, but they're also less non-sensical, less unnecessarily overcomplicated (in the cat-mustache sort of way), so that you can quickly *get back* to the voice acting and storytelling, instead of being frustrated trying to pixel-hunt and tearing your hair out about what to do with the scotch tape and cat hair.

From that vantage point, a modern FMV game might theoretically just be Technobabylon except instead of just cinematic voice-over you also get cinematic video.  I don't think it's impossible to make a FMV game that doesn't suck, just unlikely, and, similar to the eye-rolling stigma baggage that point-n-click's of the 90's created, FMVs have the cheesy, sleazy, incompetence of 90's games.  It's fear of death-by-association, with all the crappy flops of yestermillenium, which is important to any project with some scope and more than an iota of funding thrown at it.  I just rewatched all the FMV cutscenes from Resident Evil and it was nostalgic, but also incredibly painful to see, being 32 in 2015 rather than 11 or whatever I was in the 90's, seeing a horror game for the first time. 

It's doable, in principle.

[Mouth for war]

Oh Harvester...how I loved that game

[Problem]

It depends on how far you stretch the definition of an FMV game. In my opinion, the best FMV games were the ones that were not pure FMV, but embedded FMV into the gameplay. Think Gabriel Knight 2 (Combining Traditional Point-and-Click with FMV), Tex Murphy (combining a realtime 3D gameplay with FMV) or some parts of the Myst series (puzzle/exploration game with FMV characters - Riven did a surprisingly good job for the time). With this in mind, I think FMV games can have a future, because today it's easier and cheaper than ever to produce FMV content. For some types of games, filming the characters would be more affordable than creating and animating realistic 3D models. It will be interesting to see how well this approach will work in Obduction.

But yeah, when it comes to pure FMV games in the sense of "interactive movies" that are nothing but a sequence of branching video clips... no thanks.

[Cassiebsg]

Uhm... don't know the Tex Murphy games, but KG2 I hated because of the FMV, and MYST I loved it... untill I meet the first FMV character, then it lost part of the charm I loved in the game. Still great puzzles and experience there. Can't remember Riven that much, so won't comment on that one.

[Kumpel]

I never got into that genre very much. I played the Myst Collection and loved it but wouldnt call that a real FMV. A real good one in my childhood days has been "Critical Path" for me. It was a lot like Dragon's Lair with quicktime events and lots of deaths and seemed trashy not in a cheap but in a uniquely original way. Anyone ever played that? I found a Rom of it but never got it running. EDIT: OMG it is fully playable on youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUamoP_H7eo EDIT2: Or not... It's not the real experience. I have to look for some other way to relive that one... But if you guys wanna see the cut- and death-scenes, give it a go

I think the genre is far from dead (especially because lots of nowaday games use the game techniques- quicktime, minutelong cutscenes and so on -, games like "Critical Path" used 20 Years ago). I would love to experience a new FMV game just to see, if there is potential for modern way of gaming. Thanks for the tip Noto, I will check out "Missing" asap.

[Uhfgood]

I think there's a mistake made when calling them games.

FMV "Games" are essentially video versions of the Choose your own Adventure.  The reason it doesn't work with video is because it's neither a game nor a movie.  You just have video playing and decision points.  Not very interesting interactively, and at the same time sort of breaks immersion when watching a movie.  Now if I'm watching a movie and need to use a bathroom I hit pause, go use the bathroom, come back and hit play again, and that's as much interactivity as you have in an FMV game, but the disadvantage is, with a straight movie I can get back into it mentally connecting what I was watching.  You don't really get that with an FMV game, because your choice affects what video part you watch next. 

The only one I think pulled it off, and that was for novelty, was Dragon's Lair.  It was the slickest looking thing in the arcades back in the 80's because of movie quality hand drawn cel animation.  It was the same way except you had the added bonus of reflex style decision making, so at least it would be a bit more challenging, but not by much.  And I love dragon's lair, but as far as a game it wasn't much.

I think point-and-click adventure games ARE interactive movies.  Think about the Curse of Monkey Island (MI 3), or Day of the Tentacle -- the cut scenes and sprites were like watching Saturday morning cartoons.  If you had something as compelling with real actors as sprites and real film/video for cut scenes, it wouldn't take away from the adventure game, but would be the closest thing to an FMV game, but it would have all the things you loved about movies and games.  Enough interaction to be a real game (a real point and click such any of the ones we love), and enough video/movie to feel like you're playing a movie.

[Ali]

Black Dahlia was the best traditional FMV I remember playing, with Ripper being the most entertainingly bad. There's nothing stopping you from making an FMV game in AGS, it's just hard to get good actors, directed well, nicely photographed in front of a well lit greenscreen.

[Frodo]

I loved the FMV adventures.  Especially the Tex Murphy games and Phantasmagoria and Gabriel Knight, and lots more of them.  The were so immersive. 

Hated things like Dragons Lair, which is basically nothing more than a memory test.