Star wars VII, the force awakens

Started by Andail, Sun 31/01/2016 20:18:23

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Andail

Surprised to see there wasn't a thread about this already, because I felt I saw this after everyone else in the whole world did.

I have to say I wasn't completely blown away, which I kind of expected to be, considering all the positive reviews and write-ups I've read.

My pros:
I think the scenography was mostly awesome, with great attention to detail and an overall "real" feeling to it, as opposed to the prequels where everything felt computer modelled and plastic. Great settings and cool locations.

Good acting generally, and fun, interesting characters. Adam Driver as the bad guy was excellent - he was creepy already in Girls, so with the premise of some kind of conflicted Sith apprentice, it was a recipe for greatness.

The cons:
The script/plot. The reason I was underwhelmed here is that it didn't feel like anybody - Abrams, more specifically - had put any kind of original thought in it. It felt like they had a script meeting, and everybody was like "just make it star wars-y" with all the plot elements of the first movie (ep. IV) recycled but much bigger. Seriously - another death star, only much bigger? And they squeezed in the destruction of the entire republican system in a fifteen second segment that was as understated as an establishing shot of someone tying their shoelaces.

I just wish they could have thought a bit outside the "blow up a giant super weapon by attacking its weak spot" box, because this instalment has enough fan-serving nods as it is, what with all the famous characters re-appearing. When the resistance stab planned their attack against the whatever-oscillator, they must have had the deja-vu of their lives. The bad guys of Star Wars design their bases like Gillette design their razors; keep making the same stuff, only larger.

Another thing that always strikes me when I watch Star Wars is that every weapon blows up just as much as is necessary for the plot. When a Tie Fighter shoots at e.g. the Millenium Falcon, there's seldom more than an insignificant dent, but when they steal a Tie Fighter in the beginning of the Force Awakens, they can pretty much demolish the interior of that flight base. An X-wing has a wing span of some meters, but when it starts blasting inside the oscillator tunnel, it's as if some kind of WMD just went off.

It's like everything that flies has much better shields than stationary things, which seems odd. Why not put shields on all the vital parts of your base, especially the key parts of your super weapon. You have the power to attract a sun's rays, but take fire from tiny fighters and your whole damn planet blows up?

Another thing that disturbs me - and this has been brought up by others - is that despite the vastness of all the systems and planets and space bases in the Star Wars universe, all the vital characters keep bumping into each other all the time. Moreover, in this instalment the main characters couldn't travel anywhere without stormtroopers and Kylo Ren showing up seconds later to blow everything up. It's like in Larry II, where you wish you could just be given time to explore and play around for a while when you've reached a new location, but the bad guys keep showing up and you're forced to escape and it gets really repetitious and exhausting.

When the final scene came, where the girl - good character btw - finds Luke after a surprisingly uneventful journey, I wish the movie could have been more about just that; a long quest to find Luke, a lonesome girl traversing the strange and diverse worlds of the galaxy, maybe a touch of existentialism and also a more deep inward exploration of the Force, instead of how she just kind of stumbled over it.

Stupot

I pretty much agree with everything you said.
I'm also surprised there isn't a thread on it by now, though some of us shared a few qualms over on the What Grinds Your Gears thread (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=52709.msg636528764#msg636528764).

Mandle

Yeah, I felt the new Death Star was unneeded as well, but it was probably there as a big billboard saying "Star Wars is BACK!!!" after the horribleness of the prequels. A kind of fan-boy safety blanket.

I think the main characters always running into each other is explainable though: Their destinies are tied together by The Force. It's always happened this way in the original series so no great sin there I felt. The one a lot of people complained about was Han and Chewy just "happening" to pick up the Millenium Falcon in the vastness of space (with space being really big and all, the chances of being picked up within that time are 22,079,460,347 to one against. Which, by a staggering coincidence, was also the telephone number of an Islington flat where...etc.). But I think these people might have missed the part where Han says they have been scanning for the Falcon's signal for years...Of course, the fact that Rei and Fin just happen to stumble upon the Falcon in the first place: yeah...ummm...THE FORCE!!!

I did enjoy the movie a lot though and, as long as Ep8 is not about Rei leaving her training unfinished to go confront the big-bad before fully prepared, and Ep9 is not about attacking another Death Star only to discover IT'S A TRAP!, I think everything will be fine...I hope...

Cassiebsg

Damn you Mandle!
You just gave the plot for episode 8 and 9 away! (laugh)
There are those who believe that life here began out there...

Baron

Put some spoiler tags around that Mandle! :P

I thought the inanely named STARKILLER BASE was hugely laughable.  Why did they feel a need to excavate a trench a thousand miles across and a thousand miles deep right around the equator?  That would have taken, like, forever!  And where did they put the debris from the excavation?  Unless there's one terrifically vast mound hidden discretely on the dark side of the planet (er, cone), I'm left to suppose that was meticulously shipped abroad at even greater expense.  And wouldn't such a deep trench encounter problems like a liquid planetary mantle?  And what purpose does this vast trench serve?  All the key components (like the oscillator whatchamajigger) were out in the forest anyway!  And then the shooting: how does it target multiple targets at once out of one apparent blast barrel?  And how were the blasts able to reach all those other planets so quickly?  Presumably, since they were essentially solar energy, they would fly at the speed of light.  Were all the target planets in the same system?  If they were, wouldn't just destroying the sun suffice to kill everyone off in a couple days?  So confused.... (roll)

I thought the rest of the movie was pretty good, though.  I've seen it three times now, once to preview to see if the kids could handle it, once this immensely crummy pirated version online, and once with the kids; and every time I see it I think I like it better.  With expectations so high I didn't dare to hope, but I'd say it's at least in the same league as the originals (if not quite as ground-breaking).  Considering how terrible the prequels turned out to be, I think we can all breathe a collective sigh of relief that the reboot was as good as it was.

Nikolas

I went to see it with my kids.

It wasn't bad, but because it was following on what the original Star Wars were, it was painfully obviously how much bullshit the whole series is! ;D

I know you guys have grown with this and you love it, and I'm also in love with Star wars, but we need to admit that it's rubbish, generally speaking, despite the hype. And VII was even more hyped than anything else and it's even more rubbish because of that.

The one thing that really bothered me was that the whole movie was geared to the audience cheering for old characters showing up. I mean, I swear, I think Ford waited a little bit, before delivering his first lines, so that the cheering would shut up. If R2-D2 had a human inside, they would do the same. Like the old BS comedies in the US, with canned "live" laughter.

Jack

It was designed to appeal to a new audience, a larger audience, not only Star Wars fans. This meant it became an action film.

No Star Wars film was ever simply an action film. Even the prequels with all their showing off were deep political dramas with a strong message. But who among the lowest common denominator (the cash cow of mediocre products) wants to be reminded of how utterly moronic they are by watching a film that goes over their heads? How many times have you heard people who never had any interest in Star Wars saying they liked the new film?

If you pay attention to the writing in this blockbuster fanfic you will notice that, by an overwhelming margin, everything good about it was nostalgia generated by the previous films.

The worst part is that someone competent never got the opportunity to work with the old cast.

Like Star Trek, Star Wars has turned to the dark side. Profit and accessibility at the cost of quality, these are its ways now.

Snarky

Haha, yeah, let's be all intellectually superior over and decry the commercialization of fucking STAR WARS! (laugh)(roll)

Jack

Quote from: Snarky on Mon 01/02/2016 18:39:26
Haha, yeah, let's be all intellectually superior over and decry the commercialization of fucking STAR WARS! (laugh)(roll)
If being able to understand the non-action film parts of all previous Star Wars films makes me intellectually superior, then yeah, I'm intellectually superior.

And everyone who doesn't get it should have ruined a different series.

MiteWiseacreLives!

The only thing other than another Death Star that bugged me was the way Finn somehow could just pick up a light-saber and hold his own against a Sith in a duel ??? What the heck? Do storm troopers get fencing lessons? or did Kylo just never any ???
Enjoyed how gritty and, like said earlier, non-plasticy the feel of it was.. that was probably the can't put my finger on it missing element from the pre-quels (that btw I didn't hate to death, just a little sad at times with disappointment)

Snarky

#10
Quote from: Jack Lucy on Mon 01/02/2016 19:04:06
If being able to understand the non-action film parts of all previous Star Wars films makes me intellectually superior, then yeah, I'm intellectually superior.

And everyone who doesn't get it should have ruined a different series.

The Star Wars movies are not exactly challenging material. Your assumption that hoi polloi are too stupid to grasp their intricate complexity and great profundity, or that any subjective flaws in the new movie is because the filmmakers couldn't grasp the originals is... well, let's just say entirely consistent with your attitude on any subject.

Andail

I too feel sceptical about the idea that the original trilogy owned a depth that the newer movies lack. If anything, wasn't it the carefree, laidback atmosphere in Lucas' first movies that attracted people? It was just plain escapism without politics and crap.

I do agree about Star Trek suffering from exactly this, even though I'm not a trekkie enough to say firsthand what the various Star Treks series were about, but I know as much that they were about peaceful exploration and learning about different civilisations etc, while the recent movies are basically just adrenaline-soaked action.

The only thing that struck me as particularly unintelligent (apart from the glaring plot holes) in ep VII was that most of the nostalgia-inducing nods were so utterly in-your-face. Like Nikolas said, it's like every old character making an appearance had to stare blankly for a few seconds for the audience to calm down before delivering their lines. That along with some other really over-explicit dialogue made it seem much dumber than it had to be - so Han Solo shoots with Chewie's crossbow-blaster and has to comment twice how good it is! What the hell? He must have fought alongside Chewbacca for at least 25 years or so, and he never got to try it before? Why not just give it an appreciative nod and move on? Who writes dialogue like that? Second example - Finn fights stormtroopers on the ground while Poe flies his X-wing in the background, succesfully shooting down TIE-fighters in a long and very well-executed shot, and I was like "please just let the audience undertand that Poe is a great pilot from that display" but damn me if Finn doesn't have to stop and explicitly, like directly to the viewer, exclaim "DAMN THAT'S A GOOD PILOT". JESUS CHRIST.

Jack

Quote from: Andail on Mon 01/02/2016 19:50:29
I too feel sceptical about the idea that the original trilogy owned a depth that the newer movies lack. If anything, wasn't it the carefree, laidback atmosphere in Lucas' first movies that attracted people? It was just plain escapism without politics and crap.

It was the originality of Star Wars that blew people away at the time. Even while Lucas was making it nobody got it. Shame. He could have just showed them the opening titles and they would have been on board.

Quote from: Snarky on Mon 01/02/2016 19:27:56
The Star Wars movies are not exactly challenging material. You assumption that hoi polloi are too stupid to grasp their intricate complexity and great profundity, or that any subjective flaws in the new movie is because the filmmakers couldn't grasp the originals is... well, let's just say entirely consistent with your attitude on any subject.

The plainly observable facts are that Star Wars was made into an action film, and somehow this has become a discussion about me? I guess we're both exhibiting consistent behaviour.

Stupot

Quote from: Jack Lucy on Mon 01/02/2016 18:25:17
But who among the lowest common denominator [...] wants to be reminded of how utterly moronic they are by watching a film that goes over their heads? How many times have you heard people who never had any interest in Star Wars saying they liked the new film?
I liked it.

I haven't seen the original trilogy since I was a child. I barely remember them. I certainly don't remember any deep complex socio-philosophy. I just vaguely remember that I liked it.  Then the prequels, which everyone is supposed to hate. Not me. I enjoyed them at the time and the Phantom Menace Pod racing scene is one of my most memorable cinema experiences... Sorry. And is Jar Jar Binks really that bad?

Episode VII comes along. Absolutely everyone loves it. But weirdly they love it mostly because it's just like the originals and not like the prequels. I dunno, I can barely remember the originals and I think most people can't even explain why they hate the prequels... Something about too much groundbreaking computer graphics or something. It seems like hating the prequels is some kind of rite of passage for nerdculturedom. I don't really give a shit. I liked the new one a lot. I didn't mind the prequels, and I vaguely remember liking the originals. But I'm just a lowest common denominator moron so I can't remember the ins and outs.

Who's side is Boba Fett on again?

Baron

Quote from: Stupot+ on Tue 02/02/2016 00:38:33
And is Jar Jar Binks really that bad?




Me'sa shakin' my head-head at Massa Stupot. (wrong)

Darth Mandarb

I rather liked it. 

Sure it was a clone of Episode IV (see what I did there?) but I understand why this was done.

Whether or not they deserve it (they do) peoples' negative reactions toward the prequels tarnished Star Wars' image. The biggest complaints usually revolved around them just not feeling like Star Wars. I don't think anybody can think EpVII didn't feel like a Star Wars movie. It brought us old-school fans, skeptical after the prequels, back into the fold more easily.

I agree with Stupot+ that a lot of the hate for the prequels was "bandwagon" nonsense (this is unavoidable in the internet era).  My distaste for them, which took YEARS for me to admit because I am a proud Star Wars fanboy, was based on the horrible writing (story yes, but most notably the dialogue), sub-par directing (causing good actors to act badly), and the over-reliance on CG (I love CG, but I don't want Star Wars Toy Story).

AHOY MATEY, THERE BE SPOILERS AHEAD (read on at your peril)

...

pros:

I loved Adam Driver's performance as Kylo Ren/Ben. His conflict and emotional torment was what I wanted to see from Anakin in the prequels (but never got to see due to the aforementioned shit writing/directing/acting). "I feel the good in you... the conflict". You could practically hear Luke's words echoing through Kylo's head as he stared his father down...

When he was fighting with Rey and Finn in the forest (after being shot by Chewie) he kept pounding on the wound.  Feeding off the pain/anger to make him stronger.  Such a small detail but so powerful.

Rey was amazing!  I find it silly, however, that people are saying how great it is to have such a strong women in a leading role.  Princess Leia stared down Darth Vader with little fear, led the alliance from the front lines and was a hero of the original Star Wars movies.  Not sure why Rey is getting so much press for "breaking ground" when Leia did it 40 years ago. I digress.

I liked the idea of the Star Killer base (Luke's last name, in the original story of Star Wars, was Luke Starkiller so it was a nod to die-hard SW fans I think).  I think it's exactly what the "bad guys" would do. The first Death Star failed? We'll build a second (bigger) Death Star.  The second (bigger) Death Star failed? We'll now build an even bigger weapon.  Hubris is a hallmark of bad guys it seems.

cons:

I have to say I didn't like seeing Han Solo killed off.  From a literary standpoint I agree totally with remarks Harrison Ford has made in the past (that Han's story arc was over when he was frozen in the carbonite) and he shouldn't have been brought back in Jedi.  I don't blame George for disagreeing and keeping Han around (for fan service, not to mention merchandising which, I believe by Jedi, was GL's main focus).  Having said that, and having Han around as my all-time favorite film character for almost 40 years, I think they killed him off in the ONLY way that it could be done.  Any other way would have felt cheap (getting shot by a storm trooper?  the falcon being destroyed? nah)

The final battle felt rushed and the pacing was just... off.  I expected a tad more from Abrams here. 

I think it would have been better had Han not been killed when he was.  Then Han, Chewie, Rey would have taken the Falcon to find Luke (while Leia spearheaded the battle against Star Killer Base with Finn's helpful janitorial advice).  Kylo would have followed the Falcon.  On that planet Han and Chewie would have gone off looking for Luke and there'd have been a similar showdown with Ren/Rey but Ren would defeat Rey (rather easily).  As he was about to strike Rey down a green lightsaber blade would have blocked the blow and that's how Luke would have made his [re]entrance to the Star Wars universe.  Realizing he cannot defeat Skywalker, Ren would have retreated as Han would have come back to the area ... Han would tell Luke, "good to see you again kid... let me handle this" and confronts his son.  Then the rest would play out similarly... I felt cheated not getting to see Han and Luke reunited after all these years even if only briefly.

...

Do I think they could have tried for a little more originality while still making it feel like Star Wars? 

Sure... but this is Hollywood. 

They don't care about what is good.

They care about what will sell.

Radiant

I give the film a solid "MEH".

I found Rey to be a great character, but Finn is rather unbelievable, and Kylo is so utterly ridiculous that he feels like Dark Helmet. BB8 is cute but effectively a direct copy of R2D2. Basically, Leia and especially Han Solo steal the show and overshadow everything the new triad does. The film is enjoyable and has some solid action scenes, but in terms of plot it's going absolutely nowhere.

Quote from: Stupot+ on Tue 02/02/2016 00:38:33
Then the prequels, which everyone is supposed to hate. Not me. I enjoyed them at the time and the Phantom Menace Pod racing scene is one of my most memorable cinema experiences... Sorry. And is Jar Jar Binks really that bad?
Ah, the internet is too good at dissecting movies these days. That said, I think their biggest failing is that the second film focuses way too much time on the (poorly written and acted) romance subplot instead of on the main conflict between Obi-Wan and Jango Fett. While I understand that many people are bothered by "child appeal" characters like Kid Anakin and Jarjar, those don't particularly bother me.

Mandle

Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Tue 02/02/2016 14:23:52
Having said that, and having Han around as my all-time favorite film character for almost 40 years, I think they killed him off in the ONLY way that it could be done.  Any other way would have felt cheap (getting shot by a storm trooper?  the falcon being destroyed? nah)

While Han going down with his ship would have been a legendary death...I felt that the way he died was actually the perfect ending for his character arc:

The only-looking-out-for-himself rogue that we are introduced to in the original movie finds more and more things besides his own well-being to stand for during Empire and Jedi...and finally the guy who only cared about how much riches he could imagine dies selflessly trying to save the only thing that really mattered to him in the end: his son...

This was a true hero's journey and I much prefer it to any Han-went-out-fighting ending...

I do agree as well that I wished Han and Luke had met again one last time and would loved to have seen that...But such it is when writing tragedy: It's all the things that might have been that provide the best impact when killing off a central character...And the fact that the audience must live with that forever, as we live with it in real life forever, that makes the tragedy story unforgettable when done right...

Monsieur OUXX

I would like someone to explain to me why Hollywood doesn't pay an action team of 5 serious screenwriters, who would be in charge of reading all the scripts just before they go into filming. They'd each be given a big red permanent marker, with mission to strike through everything that's just plain stupid, like we keep seeing in big (well funded) movies for the last 15 years.

I'm not talking about "subjective" stupid. I'm talking about obvious inconsistencies and trampling of the suspension of disbelief.

These guys would be paid to say things like "No, J.J. Abrahams. Sorry, but that's stupid. You heard me, I said STUPID. Aren't you ashamed of spending 1 million dollars on that one scene that is stupid and blatantly contradicts the rest of the movie? and there are several such scenes in your movie! Sorry, you can whine, but I'm taking out the red pen. Red pen, red pen. Go back home and come back when you've written something that makes sense. Chop chop."
 

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