I give up

Started by Crimson Wizard, Mon 01/02/2016 07:23:47

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Crimson Wizard

.

AnasAbdin

First of all, You haven't wasted your time. The amount of respect I personally have for you is unimaginable.

If you want to stop developing the engine, you have all the right to do so. If you wanna take a break you surely earned it.
But saying you wasted your time, NO.
Who really cares what platform we make AGS games with? Commercial devs? If you want something very bad and you can't do it, then hire someone to do it.
I know I might sound harsh, but I am direct and honest. This is to all AGSers here: If you expect someone is working hard day and night developing AGS engine so you can release your little one room mags game into all different platforms so 3 people can enjoy it then shame on you. If you are going commercially and expecting someone to work as much on the engine so you can get it for free and make loads of money out of it then shame on you.

Whether it's you CW or anyone else, if we want AGS to develop or if we want any special release that fulfills any specific purpose, the dev MUST be paid as a full time programmer.
End of discussion.

Problem

You did a good job, CW. The features you have added to AGS are a great improvement. I can only imagine how frustrating it must be trying to maintain and update such an old engine without breaking it, and you have my biggest respect for what you have achieved. Without your work, our last game probably wouldn't even exist.
But if you feel that you can't work on AGS anymore, then by all means stop. You owe nothing to anybody, and if you don't like to do it, if it becomes a chore for you, then there's no point. Thanks for all the hard work, we really appreciate it.

Dualnames

Lies. You can ask anyone around here, and I guarantee that nobody will say "pff that cw, what a useless bastard". These past few years the engine has evolved in many ways. I never thought someone would replace CJ in any way, but you've achieved that in a lot of ways. I really want to persuade you otherwise, but i feel that is also selfish. If this is your final decision, I cannot personally thank you enough for the fixes you've done. If this is you feeling down, then I'd like to say, that giving up won't accomplish anything, everyone in this community, I feel, believes in you, we don't care if things could be better and all that.
Worked on Strangeland, Primordia, Hob's Barrow, The Cat Lady, Mage's Initiation, Until I Have You, Downfall, Hunie Pop, and every game in the Wadjet Eye Games catalogue (porting)

Retro Wolf

You don't owe us anything, we owe you our thanks for the time in your life you chose to sacrifice for our community.

As far as how the AGS community feels about you, from the top of your profile: "Crimson Wizard won a Best Innovation Award in 2013, for spearheading the AGS 3.3.0 project."

With whatever you decide to do, I wish you well.

Crimson Wizard

Sorry, I had a very bad day. I keep snapping like this lately.
It does not really matter what I said here, so I deleted my post.
The truth is however, that the planned versions will probably be the last ones I do.
It does not really mean that there is no sense in fixing AGS further. But I cannot do that anymore. The thoughts that I am stuck and do something wrong drive me mad.

Atavismus

CW, I just told you all the good I think about your dedication to AGS, so I won't add more, I agree with others.

Also, I agree with AnasAbdin: imo, we need a paid full time dev (I already proposed it in the past here and there).

I just made a poll here: http://goo.gl/s1MtKc.


Retro Wolf

I'd be more than happy to pay a yearly subscription/donation for AGS! I'm not saying donors should get any special treatment, but I would like my forum name to be GOLDEN 8-)

Crimson Wizard

You bring everything to payment. I find this terribly annoying. This never had anything to do with payment.
It could have if I knew that I was doing things right. But I didn't. So this is not an issue.

Peder 🚀


Retro Wolf

It's blue on my screen Peder, or are you messing with my head? :-D

Atavismus

I know - and I'm sure we all know - that it's not about money.

But that's so much hard work, it means so much time, issues, tough choices, hair pulling, etc. that imo it's not a shame to talk about money.

Also, fulltime means it should take less time and time is against us imo.

Sslaxx

If development of AGS is impacting on your mental health, Crimson, then take a break. Please. Your health is more important than whatever features AGS has. Burning yourself out over this any more isn't going to help you.

If we need to appeal to more developers outside of the AGS community, what can we do (beside just money) to attract them?
Stuart "Sslaxx" Moore.

kconan

  Thanks for your hard work on keeping AGS going!  I agree with the above post, take a well-earned break if it helps prevent burn out.

Mandle

Dear Crimson Wizard,

I understand very much so at this point in my own life what it feels like to be totally burnt-out with something that has been a large part of your life for a very long time...

What keeps me personally from just giving up on the whole deal and walking away is looking at the positive things my work has accomplished and just taking a moment to "smell the roses" and take pride in what others have achieved through my work...

My advice is to take some time to look over all the amazing game projects that could have only happened due to your hard work on AGS. You have helped to hand an accessible tool for game creation to a lot of people who only ever dreamed of making their own game(s) (myself included) and transformed them from dreamer to developer.

I thank you personally from the bottom of my own heart for what AGS has given me: the ability to potentially achieve a dream I've pursued on and off since I was a child programming games from scratch in BASIC on my TRS-80, a dream that I thought had grown impossible as I lost touch with computer programming and now engines such as AGS have brought that back full-circle into the realms of possibility.

Thank you, mate. Whatever you decide to do about your future with AGS is your own descision: But please NEVER feel that what you have already done for the engine is in vain: There are so many games out there that would never have existed otherwise.

Cheers for everything and take some time to smell the Rosangelas if need be...

Crimson Wizard

#15
Quote from: Mandle on Mon 01/02/2016 14:35:56
My advice is to take some time to look over all the amazing game projects that could have only happened due to your hard work on AGS. You have helped to hand an accessible tool for game creation to a lot of people who only ever dreamed of making their own game(s) (myself included) and transformed them from dreamer to developer.

You are definitely confusing me with Chris Jones, which is more than embarassing. I just did few minor things on top of what existed in AGS before me.

AGS was not a big thing in my life for a long time. It was just a project I tried to continue, but failed to do properly. As well as some other projects before that.

I did not achieve any of the tasks that were standing when we started, except maybe custom resolutions, which still do not work very well because graphics renderer is still too weak for high-res.

What I was saying in the post I deleted, is that I was continuously chose wrong solutions to existing problems. I wasted my time, and I wasted the time of those who expected results.

Many people said I do "hard work" but it was hard work beating a wall with my head, while I should have made a door.

I am so disturbed by my incapability, that I feel uncertain to start any more projects now. I am literally afraid to write code.

Cassiebsg

I know it's now a cliché, but "failure is always an option!"
Take a break.
Use what you consider the "wrong path" and learn from it. It's only wasted time if you don't learn anything and just give up. Take a step back and a depth breath.

More important than adding new features, is patching bugs and making sure the engine runs. I haven't been here long, but appreciate all the work you have put into AGS. Would AGS still be a running engine if not for you maintaining and improving on it?
There are those who believe that life here began out there...

MiteWiseacreLives!

AGS is a very special thing. It has opened the door for so many arm-chair programmers and artist to express themselves and create all sorts of great things. We know Chris Jones started this, but look how the level of quality has rose the last few years, it's outstanding! I don't think for a minute that all the activity in the recent years would have been if the engine was not being supported and developed. So hats off to all those involved in the success of the AGS community!
I can only imagine how tricky it would be to build on and clean up the existing code, so your analogy of trying to make a door with your head is probably spot on  (laugh) but no one can fault you for trial and error along the way. Take a break, play some games as Mandle suggested, take pride in what you've done and pass the baton if like.

Snarky

Quote from: Crimson Wizard on Mon 01/02/2016 14:53:57
What I was saying in the post I deleted, is that I was continuously chose wrong solutions to existing problems. I wasted my time, and I wasted the time of those who expected results.

Many people said I do "hard work" but it was hard work beating a wall with my head, while I should have made a door.

I am so disturbed by my incapability, that I feel uncertain to start any more projects now. I am literally afraid to write code.

I know I've told you this before, but making mistakes is an inevitable consequence of challenging yourself and trying something. It doesn't make you a failure, or the effort meaningless. If you haven't been able to "fix" AGS, eh, it'll be be all right, and we certainly appreciate the attempt.

jwalt

I always get depressed when Crimson Wizard gets depressed. He does seem to be a major force around here for engine/editor development. I don't know if this helps, but R. Steven Glanville, creator of Anim8or may be sharing some feelings with The Wizard:

http://www.anim8or.com/smf/index.php/topic,5087.msg39762.html#msg39762

He's been trying to implement a Topo-tool in Anim8or, and the existing mirror mode is causing him trouble. His comment:

              Mirror mode has a lot of issues - I think it was neglected by it's mother when it was little.  I'm slowly cleaning them up.
              I have to admit that if I'd known how difficult it was going to be to add, I probably wouldn't have done it.

In the case of Anim8or, almost all of the code in the program is Steve's code.

The next response was:

http://www.anim8or.com/smf/index.php/topic,5087.msg39763.html#msg39763

              I always use mirror after I complete one side of the model, but I notice it must be aligned on a particular plane.... Even as a broken tool it is still
              super valuable.


Jack

Being locked to 4:3 AR was the single biggest thing holding AGS back. If you fixed only that you deserve all the praise of a job well done.

As a programmer, might I ask what caused you to feel like you always used the wrong solutions? Would I be correct if I guessed that github comments had a lot to do with it?

A correct solution is one that works.

Radiant

CW, you've always set very high standards for yourself. That is an admirable trait, if frustrating for yourself.

Bear in mind that even though you're not always meeting your own standards, you're still doing an excellent job in the eyes of the community.

NickyNyce

I give up is something that I've been doing lately. Sometimes you just need to take 2 steps backward and regroup, or pass the torch. It's human nature, take a break and do something different.

Mandle

Quote from: Crimson Wizard on Mon 01/02/2016 14:53:57
You are definitely confusing me with Chris Jones, which is more than embarassing. I just did few minor things on top of what existed in AGS before me.

Naw mate, I know who Chris Jones is, though I was not around when he still was.

I was mainly going off stuff I've heard here and there in the forums. One thing I have especially noticed is that your deeper knowledge of the code has allowed you to rescue many, many people in the Beginner and Advanced help threads and bring their games closer to completion. How many of those people would have just given up if not for that help I wonder? How much of that help would you have been able to give if not for your knowledge of the engine's inner-workings? Even if you feel your work on changing the engine has not gone as hoped then there is always that.

I've also seen your name listed in the credits of many games saying: "And the invaluable help from Crimson Wizard..." and the like...

Also comments such as:

Quote from: Problem on Mon 01/02/2016 08:45:54
Without your work, our last game probably wouldn't even exist.

So yeah, I'm not confusing you with Chris Jones: You're one of the folks who took it upon themself (out of a labour of love) to attempt to bring 17 year old code (?), written by someone else no-less, up to speed with modern times.
 
Much respect for that alone!

Cheers!

Stupot

I'm not going to say 'don't give up' but I do think one man shouldn't be expected to put in all the hard graft that you have, Crim. You've got above and beyond. I wish I could do something to help out, but my programming skills are nil. There does need to be more man(and woman)power behind the project though.

SilverSpook

Just my 2 cents: if you did implement custom resolutions, I have to thank you CW, because I might not have chosen to produce neofeud, or at least not in AGS without the ability to set higher resolutions.

So the renderer isn't the highest quality.  At least it exists!

Atavismus

I hope I won't sound insisting but I just wrote a topic titled "Should the AGS community hire a paid full time coder?":

http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=53196.0

I'll be glad to hear your opinion, discuss and find what is the best for our community. :)


Peder 🚀

Quote from: Retro Wolf on Mon 01/02/2016 12:17:02
It's blue on my screen Peder, or are you messing with my head? :-D

Yes sorry :P

Intense Degree

CW, do what you need to do and never worry about expressing your feelings here, even if you might not mean some of it in the longer term. It's fine to vent.

However, please do not think of anything you have done as failure. You have succeeded in so many ways and even if you haven't "saved the world" (an impossible task) that is not failure. You are much more appreciated in this community that you know.


Wyz

CW, please know that the load that currently rests on your shoulders is not there for one person to carry. We all know this but because of circumstances it has been. You took on the job, pulled it forward and I'm so very glad you did because the minute the cart stops it becomes dead-weight. The minute a project stops making progress--the ever so tiniest bit of progress is enough--it becomes exceptionally hard to restart it. You have prevented this from happening in the beginning; you had some help along the way sure but you kept it going. I know how frustrating it can be if you can't seem to move as quickly or in the direction you want but just keeping moving it forward how slowly it seems is so very important and we all owe you big time for that.

Now I wish I could help you out; try to take some strain but I don't know how. I'm also pulling slow moving carts myself. :( But hey, you can take it even slower if you want see because it does not matter how fast you pull it as long as it keeps moving. Personally I take consolation from this thought because the load does not feel as heavy and still because there is movement it will get there at some point.

When CJ left the project he knew what he left; I'm sure his planning was filled with features that could only ever be implemented in a neat way with complete engine rewrites; without breaking compatibility a humongous task and also a bit depressing to see that much of a work load. For an outsider new to the code-base and also unknown to whatever vision the original author had this task is inconceivable. Yet you gave it a shot and got it to move again which is impressive. The fact that you spent time (I wouldn't say wasted) on features that did not work out as planned is normal; this is how you get the job done because if you theorize about things for months you will be left with well not very much. The fact that CJ got as far as he did is for the same reasons and I can only imagine he learned a lot form it in the process making him a better programmer.

I feel you and I respect you; here is something I've been willing to tell for a while:
As author of a project you have your own vision, something you wish it to be. Sure this can be influenced by other people but yet there is only one person that truly understands this vision and that is the author. Now when a project is passed on to the next generation this becomes a thing. Everyone wants the project to stay true to this vision yet no one really knows what it is so everyone presses his own version on. Filling the shoes of the previous author can feel like a burden; you never know if you're doing it right. Instead have your own vision, make it what you want it to be. Then it becomes more enjoyably and it feels like the sky is the limit. :)
Life is like an adventure without the pixel hunts.

Ponch

   :sad:      :sad:      :sad:      :sad:      :sad:      :sad:      :sad:      :sad:      :sad:      :sad:      :sad:
[embed=425,349]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bxjNZYR64g[/embed]
  :(     :(    :(    :(    :(    :(    :(    :(    :(    :(    :(

Crimson Wizard

I do not think I can continue, I am getting terribly stressed out every time I touch this program; there is something wrong in what and how I am doing.
I hoped I can finish the last versions of it, but it takes so much time that I lost hope. I feel completely uninterested in this. If anyone wants to take a lead on this project, I do not want it anymore.

AnasAbdin

You have done to AGS more than we could have ever wished. Kick back and relax. Just let us enjoy your company in the forums :)

Ryan Timothy B

Download Unity and make some games already! ;-D 

(And if making games isn't your thing, quite a bit of people are making comfortable money with the Unity Asset Store)

[delete}

#34
“When things go wrong, don't go with them.”
†• Elvis Presley

miguel

In Portugal we go to a T - Spa when we feel depressed.
Working on a RON game!!!!!

Cassiebsg

CW, I just wish to thank you for all the cool stuff you have added to AGS!
Thanks for all your hard work! (nod)
There are those who believe that life here began out there...

Retro Wolf


Crimson Wizard

#38
Quote from: Amy on Mon 07/03/2016 14:20:21
stopping right now, in this very moment, is the only and absolut right decision.
This is a worst time to stop, just one step away from releasing this version, but weeks pass and I cannot finish it.

I guess I just annoy people with my posts. Don't know why I did that, it achieves nothing anyway.

This project has become a nightmare, it stuck in my head and does not let me go.

arj0n

Can't the release be postponed a little bit, creating some extra time you can use to take some time off?
I mean, are there projects really depending on the next release?

Crimson Wizard

#40
Quote from: arj0n on Mon 07/03/2016 19:32:50
Can't the release be postponed a little bit, creating some extra time you can use to take some time off?
The are postponed all the time, this is what I am saying... taking time off does not help, because I cannot do anything without keep thinking that I did not finish the task. And I do not WANT to come back again. I want to quit, finally.

Danvzare

Quote from: Crimson Wizard on Mon 07/03/2016 19:10:34
I guess I just annoy people with my posts.

Trust me, you're not annoying anyone.
If you want to quit, then quit!
No one will mind. The development of AGS isn't worth all the stress it's giving you.

I'm sure someone will pick up and finish the release.

cat

Is there any way we can help you?

selmiak

#43
Well, it's just a whole community, a whole pixely worldview depending on you, trusting you, waiting for these new features and bugfixes. We are all headless and aimless without your direction on the engine after you quit so yeah, just go ahead and throw in the towel.
Or maybe concentrate, get your shit together and finish that damned version that is so close to release and quit then. inhale, exhale. get your head free!

or what cat said + a friendly kick in the butt?!

Actually I'm really thankful for all you did up to now and totally accept your decision if you quit now (and respect it even more if you quit after finishing that damned new version so close to release with all the bugfixes and stuff you want to get in) and I just wanted to give an antipole to all the sugarcoated don't overdo yourself posts (which you really shouldn't, there is no deadline or so, remember) ;)

Sslaxx

Something needs to be done. I think whoever takes this on going forward needs to look into replacing the runtime as a matter of urgency.
Stuart "Sslaxx" Moore.

LimpingFish

Personally, I think finishing the current version would be a very positive act of catharsis. With that finality, that last obstruction torn down, you will feel much better about handing the project over to somebody else.

But if you simply can't face the prospect of continuing to code AGS, then I say do what's best for you. :)
Steam: LimpingFish
PSN: LFishRoller
XB: TheActualLimpingFish
Spotify: LimpingFish

Snarky

Failure is always an option! :) If it's become a nightmare, then by all means stop.

If you do quit, would you mind documenting the last few things you think need to be done to finish 3.3.5?

Is this the last build? http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=52925.0
Is it just the mouse stuff left?

sonneveld

Quote from: Snarky on Tue 08/03/2016 06:58:20
Is this the last build? http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=52925.0
Is it just the mouse stuff left?
I'm not entirely sure what's left but I know there's the mouse defects in Linux and a small addition I wanted to get in to help with packaging.
Nick.

Radiant

Quote from: Crimson Wizard on Mon 07/03/2016 19:44:15
The are postponed all the time, this is what I am saying... taking time off does not help, because I cannot do anything without keep thinking that I did not finish the task. And I do not WANT to come back again. I want to quit, finally.

So do. CW, you've done a great job on the engine, and if working on it is no longer enjoyable to you then don't feel guilty to pass the torch. We're happy with what you've done for us, now go do something that makes you happy and you have our full support for that.

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