Should the AGS community hire a paid full time coder?

[Atavismus]

Yesterday, after this, I made a poll here:

http://goo.gl/s1MtKc

I don't want to bring revolution, discord or anything negative.
I just think the "hire a paid coder" question has to be asked.
It's not about not having trust in the current dev team, huge work has been done.
But so much hard work remains, it means so much time, issues, tough choices, hair pulling, etc. that imo it's not a shame to talk about money.
Also, if that coder work fulltime, it means it should take less time and time is against us imo.
So we could quickly turn AGS into a modern engine (so people don't need to switch to boring Unity or any other engine).

Of course, first, we should create a list of what needs to be done, so we can get an idea of a time frame and cost.
Then we could make, for example, a new AGS Bake Sale.

I guess it's better to sell games to people instead of just asking for money.
Btw, Mark and me could give some Dustbowl steam keys.
I know KodiakBehr would agree to too.
And I'm sure some other people who released commercial games could be too.
Some games could unlock when a certain amount is paid, etc.
Well, it's not the time to discuss how that Bake Sale would work: it's only to point that we can raise money without "begging" people.

I hope you'll see my post as something constructive and not a lese majesty.

[Crimson Wizard]

My opinion is to forget about updating old code and choose an existing modern engine/framework, which should be modified to emulate AGS behavior.
This could be easier and faster.
Not all of the features are critical, some AGS features are used very rarely and may be added only if really necessary.
You keep writing games in AGS Editor, if you like, but run them on better engine.

[Peder 🚀]

Forgetting about updating old code could be a good move imo, I feel it's time to start thinking new, and pick whatever choices are best for AGS to go forward and become not just an engine/editor to make old school adventure games, but to make more modern up to date adventure games.

My biggest personal reason for not thinking of using AGS for any future projects atm is the lack of a multiplatform editor.

[Atavismus]

My opinion is to forget about updating old code and choose an existing modern engine/framework, which should be modified to emulate AGS behavior.
This could be easier and faster.
Not all of the features are critical, some AGS features are used very rarely and may be added only if really necessary.
You keep writing games in AGS Editor, if you like, but run them on better engine.

That's an interesting way indeed. But maybe with such solution, the risk to lose AGS "identity" is high?

Also, whatever the tech side of AGS future, I don't think it's incompatible with paying someone to do it.

I wanted to add (if some people wonder):
- I'm a coder (that's my job but I don't want at all to be hire for AGS)
- I tried many engines/frameworks (including Unity)
- I really love AGS above all since many years.
That's why I would like the best for AGS.

[Crimson Wizard]

That's an interesting way indeed. But maybe with such solution, the risk to lose AGS "identity" is high?

That depends on what "identity" means. Is it bugs and technical limitation; or having authentic line of code circa year 2000 inside the engine?
I specifically pointed out that the idea is to keep using AGS Editor to create game data. This would mean that game creator will use same tools and design concepts. They will just be run in different enviroment.

[Atavismus]

That depends on what "identity" means. Is it bugs and technical limitation; or having authentic line of code circa year 2000 inside the engine?
I specifically pointed out that the idea is to keep using AGS Editor to create game data. This would mean that game creator will use same tools and design concepts. They will just be run in different enviroment.

hehe
Well, indeed, if we keep the editor / concepts, I personally don't really care about what is running behind.
Still, I guess it would ask a lot of time?
Do you have an engine/framework in mind?
Maybe we should open a new topic to discuss about it and keep this one for the funding side?

[Crimson Wizard]

Do you have an engine/framework in mind?

No, I do not, I am merely saying my opinion now. Finding such framework would be a subtask of its own.


E: To be honest, I feel deja vu now, because I was saying very similar things about a year or two ago...

[Adeel]

E: To be honest, I feel deja vu now, because I was saying very similar things about a year or two ago...

LOL! Finally you realized that!

[Atavismus]

Just to let you know, there are 19 votes for now.

Yes    : 74% (14)
Depends: 11% (2)
No     : 16% (3)

But it can't be considered as representative for the moment.
I guess we need around 100 votes.

[Jack]

I would be nice to send CW several sacks of money for the work he's already done, but like he said he never expected compensation for this.

This all depends on whether Crimson Wizard wants to be the paid programmer (if there is one), but in case of not, it would be a good idea to raise a bunch of cash to fund the writing of a technical document on the functioning of AGS. I'm talking about stuff like which script gets executed first, the format of all the files used, etc. Basically a detailed description to make it a whole lot easier for anyone who wants to rebuild either part of AGS (the editor or the engine). We'll send these liberated sacks of bank money to CW if he wants the job.

My particular interest is in the editor, because ever since using it I've had a dream to redesign it one day when I have the time.

[Atavismus]

So we have 30 votes.

Yes: 63% (19)
Depends: 23% (7)   
No: 13% (4)

Even if the result is clear, I guess it's not enough to be relevant.

Well, I keep my money. ^^

Let's hope we won't be - more or less - at the same point in one year.

[Dave Gilbert]

We (meaning Wadjet Eye) have offered money to folks in this community to work on updating AGS in the past. The answer has always been no. It's a hobby for most people here, and accepting money for it implies a commitment that not many are willing to make.

To really make it work, we'd probably need to hire a pro from outside the community entirely. Someone to crack open the engine, see how it works, and then begin the arduous task of updating it. It's *not* easy, and could easily run into $50,000+ range if we wanted someone professional and fast.

I was toying with moving to Unity last year, but after a few months of playing around with it I decided that I was trading one set of problems for another. So I'm sticking with AGS right now. But I'd be lying if I said that the lack of forward momentum on keeping it updated and modern doesn't worry me.

[shaun9991]

I would definitely throw some money at this. Even if it meant reframing AGS into a Unity module or some such thing.

Adventure Creator for Unity seems to be the closest thing we have so far to a modern AGS... but some features that take seconds in AGS take forever in Unity... meaning I will stick with AGS for the time being!

[Atavismus]

We (meaning Wadjet Eye) have offered money to folks in this community to work on updating AGS in the past. The answer has always been no. It's a hobby for most people here, and accepting money for it implies a commitment that not many are willing to make.

I can understand them and I respect them, but it's not about stealing money to a community. Imo, it won't be a shame at all to be paid for a hard fulltime job.

To really make it work, we'd probably need to hire a pro from outside the community entirely.

That was what I meant.
But ofc, if someone of the community want the job, better give it to him.

Someone to crack open the engine, see how it works, and then begin the arduous task of updating it. It's *not* easy, and could easily run into $50,000+ range if we wanted someone professional and fast.

For sure it's not easy.
50 000: I thought about less, but I guess you know better than me.

I was toying with moving to Unity last year, but after a few months of playing around with it I decided that I was trading one set of problems for another. So I'm sticking with AGS right now.

Same here.
But I can't stop loving AGS... ^^

But I'd be lying if I said that the lack of forward momentum on keeping it updated and modern doesn't worry me.

Again, same here.
And, I mean, it's not only about my games: I could just move my ass and switch to Unity (even if it bores me).
I fear AGS won't attract new people if we don't reach a kind of "modernity".
To me, it's not only a commercial games issue, if you know what I mean.

[Crimson Wizard]

Someone to crack open the engine, see how it works, and then begin the arduous task of updating it.

I want to say again that I think this is a mistake. Updating outdated engine step-by-step is a mistake. This only makes sense if you want to add limited amount of improvements.

Taking an existing engine, or even writing a clear new one based on contemporary technology, then simulating at least common AGS behavior with it, might be much easier and will require less time and effort (and money).

I do not think you have to copy everything from AGS. AGS has a lot of redundant things, and bad entangled code that should be rewritten anyway. Just emulate the basics, and then continue "restoring" things only by user request.


E:
The good example of what I am talking about was XAGE engine. It was completely new thing written on XNA framework, which simulated AGS behavior. It was successfully tested with few AGS games.
You may find references on forums by searching for "XAGE".
E.g.
http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=42856.msg568691#msg568691
http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=51083

One may argue about the choice of framework, but it is a working example, and BTW made without any payment, as far as I know.

[Jack]

But I'd be lying if I said that the lack of forward momentum on keeping it updated and modern doesn't worry me.

I wouldn't be worried about no-one continuing development, if that's what you mean. This community has probably never been bigger. Someone will find the time.

I think bringing money/commitment into it depends on the situation. Thinking about it, I would be thrilled to have the job of rewriting AGS, but I wouldn't want to enforce any one company's vision on it, even if that company is WadjetEye.

[morganw]

Just emulate the basics, and then continue "restoring" things only by user request.

I like this approach, particularly if the initial design is generic and well documented. It would be nice if extra functionality was modular and games would check feature flags when they run to see if the engine implements the required features.

i.e. anyone could port the core to the documented spec ("just emulate the basics") to run on other system without worrying about incorporating advanced functions - any games that just used core features would run.

I would like to think that with so many people interested in game design you may get a lot of ports of the core engine for educational purposes, as well as for fun.

[Ali]

I think there's the scope for a crowdfunding campaign to create a next-generation version of AGS. As CW says, the great things about AGS is all conceptual. It's about how easy AGS makes it to design adventure games that just work like adventure games should work. The actual code could do with being replaced wholesale.

I would definitely contribute to a modern, open-source, user-friendly 2-D adventure game engine. And I'd be up for helping put together a Kickstarter campaign for it. But for this to work we'd need to find the right coder first, and find the money second.

[Atavismus]

I wouldn't want to enforce any one company's vision on it

That's not the idea at all.
The dev team and the community will decide what to do.

Btw, I guess the first step would be to create a list of what needs to be done (so we could figure out how much it would cost)

The tech side is opened to discussion (CW's idea and example are interesting. I guess some people have other points, let's discuss).

Whatever is decided, imo, it has to be collegiate and clear.

1) What do we all want? (features list)
2) How to do it, so the cost? (tech side)
3) Who for the job?
4) Raise money (Bake sale, Kickstarter, something else, whatever)

Could be a good way to plan stuffs maybe?

[Jack]

What we need (IMO):

Besides the code being cleaned up by a complete rewrite, starting with the core features as CW said, the thing I think AGS needs most is being able to run in the user's native desktop resolution. That means that the game should scale up the game's resolution to fit the full size of the desktop res, add letterboxing where the AR doesn't match, and translate the mouse input back to the game's res. Sometimes this will cause pixel doubling, so the game should also be able to run in its own native res, allowing the hardware to handle the resampling. Ideally the user should be able to change the resolution from within the engine while it's running, as with modern games.

As for who, we should find out whether CW would be interested in doing the refactor, as he's probably the person most familiar with the AGS code right now.