Should the AGS community hire a paid full time coder?

Started by Atavismus, Tue 02/02/2016 10:43:32

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Crimson Wizard

#20
Quote from: Jack Lucy on Wed 10/02/2016 10:38:31
Besides the code being cleaned up by a complete rewrite, starting with the core features as CW said, the thing I think AGS needs most is being able to run in the user's native desktop resolution. That means that the game should scale up the game's resolution to fit the full size of the desktop res, add letterboxing where the AR doesn't match, and translate the mouse input back to the game's res.

No offense, but are you serious? AGS can already do that...

I mean, come on, even speaking on features, this is something that does not even need a mention IMO.
When I was suggesting a new engine, I assumed that it can do everything a decent contemporary engine should be able to do: run on multitude of common platforms - desktop or mobile - freely, run in any display resolution, support common control devices (keyboards, mouse, gamepads), have a proper hardware accelerated render, etc; I just thought that is too obvious to mention in an informal thread like this.

Atavismus

Quote from: Crimson Wizard on Wed 10/02/2016 11:00:11
I mean, come on, even speaking on features, this is something that does not even need a mention IMO.
When I was suggesting a new engine, I assumed that it can do everything a decent contemporary engine should be able to do: run on multitude of common platforms - desktop or mobile - freely, run in any display resolution, support common control devices (keyboards, mouse, gamepads), etc; I just thought that is too obvious to mention in the informal thread like this.

Obvious indeed, but not for everyone.
We have to talk to the whole community.
If we want to ask money to people, the project has to be clear.
People has to know what they fund.
(But indeed, it could/should be in another thread)

Billbis

If we remade AGS, should it from a new 2D game engine, or simply an point&click plugin of an already existing 2D game engine? Love2D was quite popular here, but there are many other free 2D engines one could use.
Could Calin Leafshade share his experience about remaking an AGS-like engine (ADORE)?

Ali

Quote from: Crimson Wizard on Wed 10/02/2016 11:00:11
No offense, but are you serious? AGS can already do that...

While I think crowdfunding for AGS is a very good idea, this demonstrates the limits of crowdsourcing. It's all too easy for us to bat around contradictory opinions and ideas which might not even be relevant to the current state AGS. Without formal project leaders who feel empowered to make decisive choices it's going to be hard to select ideas and make progress.

EDIT: I thought I should add something positive to this! In the interest of progress, I'd volunteer to work on any crowdfunding campaign for AGS.

Snarky

Yeah, this has been my position all along. I'm not against paying someone to work on AGS in principle â€" I'd be happy to chip in if there was a credible plan/arrangement set up â€" but lack of money has not been the limiting factor holding AGS development back. Lack of motivated, knowledgeable developers, organization and decisiveness has been. This list:

Quote from: Atavismus on Wed 10/02/2016 09:44:46
1) What do we all want? (features list)
2) How to do it, so the cost? (tech side)
3) Who for the job?

... is essentially the same sticking points we have talked about since at least 2012. Further discussion, opinions and ideas are not getting us anywhere. For anything to happen, someone has to step up and just do it (whatever it is).

miguel

Hello everybody, I know I'm more known for bad jokes than contributing to AGS and that I will probably never make another game but still love this project.

I agree with the crowdfunding initiative and will support AGS monetarily.
To me is very clear who should "lead" the process of turning AGS more modern. It is also easy to accept that our beloved editor and simplicity to make games should continue to be so, but now on top of a solid, multi-platform engine.
It's fair to say that everybody agrees with this approach as it makes it easier and less costly to emulate AGS plus add some cool modern stuff rather than rebuild the existing code.
Couldn't you lead, Snarky, together with CW and all of the people (khris,monkey,gurok),that have been contributing to AGS? I will not continue naming people because I'll be unfair and forget some as I'm sure I already did.
Ali's offer is very generous and I think people should think seriously about it.
Working on a RON game!!!!!

Atavismus

Indeed, it won't be easy to find a consensus.
But it's not because it's hard that we should not try.

Indeed (bis), I guess the dev team are the more relevant people to lead the project.
If there are several projects/ways we can vote.
With a clear statement for each project/way, anyone who want to vote should be able to vote.

We should not fear discussions nor votes imo. :)

Quote from: Snarky on Wed 10/02/2016 13:10:13
we have talked about since at least 2012.
Indeed (ter). So, maybe now we are ready. :)

Crimson Wizard

#27
^
Posts like that make me want to laugh and cry at the same time.

Quote from: Atavismus on Wed 10/02/2016 13:50:48
Indeed, it won't be easy to find a consensus.
What this consensus is about, and consensus between who and who exactly?

What are you discussing here? My head is going to burst.

You started this thread asking people to vote about hiring the "full time coder" without having a clear understanding what that magical coder will do... I wonder what all those people who voted were voting for?

Adeel

Quote from: Crimson Wizard on Wed 10/02/2016 14:49:41
I wonder what all those people who voted were voting for?
Isn't this the case with every election/voting, CW? :-D

Atavismus

Mate, please, laugh but do not cry. :)
I didn't mean to hurt.

Quote from: Crimson Wizard on Wed 10/02/2016 14:49:41
What this consensus is about, and consensus between who and who exactly?
Well, I already read discussions here about what should be the future of AGS, I know that all people aren't agree on the "way", but they are all agree on the modernity point.
I'm not competent on the tech side, so I won't discuss it.
I know we can always find a consensus in everything.
That's why I made this post: to make people think/share/talk eachother.

Quote from: Crimson Wizard on Wed 10/02/2016 14:49:41
You started this thread asking people to vote about hiring the "full time coder" without having a clear understanding what that magical coder will do... I wonder what all those people who voted were voting for?
Talk about the funding side is - imo - a way to approch the problem and it could simplify it a bit.

Whatever, we have to start somewhere, I "put my foot in it" so let's progress.

If people are agree with the crowdfunding point (not sure they are), let's jump on the project definition.

Crimson Wizard

#30
Quote from: Atavismus on Wed 10/02/2016 15:22:11
Talk about the funding side is - imo - a way to approch the problem and it could simplify it a bit.

Well, you see, I disagree with this.
You do not vote "shall we gather money to buy food", you first think, do you need food right now, and if yes then how much. Maybe you still have some in the fridge?


Same with any project, first you decide on what you want to get, and then you find out what you need to get it: do you need to hire someone, etc.

Of course, you may pay money to some person for making all the decisions for yourself. But it does not look like the case.


Quote from: Adeel on Wed 10/02/2016 15:17:53
Quote from: Crimson Wizard on Wed 10/02/2016 14:49:41
I wonder what all those people who voted were voting for?
Isn't this the case with every election/voting, CW? :-D
I must admit, I do see parallels.

Atavismus

Quote from: Crimson Wizard on Wed 10/02/2016 15:40:37
you first think, do you need food right now, and if yes then how much.
To me, it's a fact:
We "need food right now"/ a modern engine.
But I don't know exactly "how much" / what kind of new AGS.

Quote from: Crimson Wizard on Wed 10/02/2016 15:40:37
Maybe you still have some in the fridge?
We have some, but I'll quote Snarky:
Quote from: Snarky on Wed 10/02/2016 13:10:13
Lack of motivated, knowledgeable developers, organization and decisiveness
That's why I fear nothing will come in time, then it will be too late and AGS won't be attractive anymore.

Quote from: Crimson Wizard on Wed 10/02/2016 15:40:37
Same with any project, first you decide on what you want to get, and then you find out what you need to get it: do you need to hire someone, etc.
Personally, before wondering what car I want to buy, I check if I can afford one.
So I check funds.
Then indeed, I can choose.

Whatever, I don't want to argue like this.

The work on AGS is huge.
It's even too much for a small team with "issues" mentioned by Snarky.
We need a fulltime dev.
Who can do that?
No one*.
Except if he is paid.

*(We all have bills to pay.)

Ali

CW is right about many things, and this is one of them. We're not asking how much money we have (at the moment, it's just all of us throwing in our 2 cents - geddit!). We're asking how much money we could raise.

You can't raise money for a fuzzy cause. You can't raise money to see if we could maybe find someone to look at possibly updating or maybe rewriting...or ...

If the AGS community were going to raise some money, and I think we could, we'd need a very clear set of goals. We'd also need the enthusiastic support of people like CW and Dave Gilbert who have done such good work on and with the engine. But we couldn't start raising money and then wait for a project leader to materialise.

Cassiebsg

I think this voting is more for: who is willing to support AGS monetarily, if the need arises. And not voting for feature x or y.
I'll admit I haven't voted, not because I wouldn't wish to support, but am unsure how to do it without paypal or IBAN... But it would probably not be much more than a measly 20â,¬...
There are those who believe that life here began out there...

Radiant

Well, the main question is whether this paid developer is to improve the current engine based on the bug backlog (because a lot of the commonly requested features are already in the latest beta, or are quick wins when there is more developer capacity), or adapt another engine that's in active development (e.g. ScummVM, because they share a lot of features that we need), or write an independent new engine from scratch (at the risk of splitting the community in half). Last time we checked, there was absolutely no consensus on this question, and I do think it would help to have one to answer questions of what we're fundraising for.

Mehrdad

I think so port to ScummVM is easiest way for get cross platform and AGS haven't any another main problem . Of course I don't know mobile port in ScummVM is optimized for accept Appstore or Google play or not.Is anyone know it?
My official site: http://www.pershaland.com/

miguel

Well put Radiant.
I have no problem at all in putting my trust on the decisions made by CW and the rest of the active engine and editor devs, plus the knowledge of modern needs of Dave Gilbert. Again, someone with the clear mind set of Snarky could "lead" the process.

I am all for democracy but some issues must be dealt by people who know how difficult it is to take such a task.
Working on a RON game!!!!!

Snarky

Just for the record, real-world concerns concerns make it impossible for me to take on any such heavy responsibility, even if I thought I'd be a good person for the job (which I don't). I'm actually trying to step down my AGS involvement, and have asked the other mods to keep an eye on the boards I moderate, as I may not always be around.

IMO, anyone who wants to lead the direction of AGS development would need to be involved hands-on in that development.

miguel

That's a shame but honest. But yes, it must be someone with availability and a global knowledge of the engine and real possibilities for a new project.
Working on a RON game!!!!!

Atavismus

CW don't want to lead anymore.
Sonneveld maybe?

If you want to see contributors' activity, here is a link:
https://github.com/adventuregamestudio/ags/graphs/contributors

(Mind, it seems we have the same debat than in politics: do we need a leader first or a programme first...)

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