Naomi picture

[Mats Berglinn]

For my next game Hawaiian Treasure I have created a hawaiian singer who will play an important role.



The pic isn't finished yet. There are things that I'm still unsure of so I have posted it for your critics. What do you guys think?

[BOYD1981]

the thing that i noticed right away is that her arms are a tad too big and they're also a lot longer than her legs...

[Flippy_D]

Her skin is like red-raw, try a more ochre shade. Also, the trainers... outline them in dark grey for starters and then try to change the shape a bit more, look at your own pair (or, if you don't have your own pair, which is possible if you live somewhere hot, look on the net). The shoulders are unnaturally straight, shorten the arms, sculpt the midriff to a more feminine shape, modify her 'howhos' a bit, have a V-neck instead of the straight across there is at the minute, and maybe curve the face a little more.

Okay, that was as harsh as I get...sorry. I do like the hands.

[OneThinkingGal and ._.]

Women are made of curves not angles. Replace every line and angle with a curve.

Put curves in the hairstyle, it should slow downwards. Same with the shoulders, slim them down and slope them down. The breasts need work since they look like they're painted on. Make them larger, its okay for them to overlap the arms a bit. Then slim down the waist by tapering it then widening again(Think hourglass) Same for the legs, more curves.

Its a lot of crit, but most men have trouble drawing women, and vice versa. You should see some of the male chars I draw.  

[Mats Berglinn]

Replace every line and angle with a curve.

Put curves in the hairstyle, it should slow downwards. Same with the shoulders, slim them down and slope them down. Same for the legs, more curves.  

Could you explain more about curves? There some things I don't really understand about these things. It would be more easier to change if you could make your explainings much more easier. I knew from the beginning that Naomi should have been slimer and that the "melons" were a bit small (but I didn't make them lager because I don't want you guys think I'm a pervo or something). I'll post a new version when I'm done with the changing. Thanks for the advices so far.

And yeah, I have problems with drawing women, both on computer or by hand.

[Flippy_D]

Clicky.

It's a manga page but manga is mostly in the hair and facial features (and muscle on men is toned down), this is a good template.

[Mats Berglinn]

Here is another change. I didn't know what was wrong with her hair (sorry, Onethinkinggal, but if you showed me an example of how the hair would be, it would be much easier for me to change) but I have changed her neck, gave her a feminal shape, highened her dress, made her legs longer and shorten her arms. Apart from the things that you guys have told so far... what have I missed which I haven't mentioned?

[Mats Berglinn]

Sorry, something went wrong with the pic.

[scotch]

well... are you going to fix it?

[Flippy_D]

[SSH]

It's Mrs. "StrongArm" McGurk, my old P.E. teacher!

I would say:

Good improvement on the shoulders and her breasts actually being in front of her arms instead of tucked underneath, but..

1) skirt too short unless she's a tennis player
2) lips too black
3) arms too thick (unless she's actually a transvestite)
4) shins too thick (they get thinner before the ankles)
5) breasts too big
6) neckline too straight... try a more round neckline?
7) don't feel you really have to get five distinct fingers in to the hand... shrink a real hand picture down

[Mats Berglinn]

To Flippy: Thanks!

Superscottishhero: No, that's Naomi McCallister, a hawaiian singer. Okay, I will make her skirt longer. Lips? I was going for a normal mouth but okay, I'll color it red then. I will change the arms and the shins but I really don't want to shrink her boobs down (what's wrong with that I like big-breasted women? It's the same as chicks likes strong guys or nice guys, so don't try to convince me). I'll change the neck but not the hands, even if I draw cartoony it doesn't mean I follow that "four-fingers-on-the-hand" cliché. So I don't going to change that. Anything else?

[Flippy_D]

Concerning the breasts (hmm), it's not the size, it's how you presented them... they're much curvier in real life, and you probably wouldn't notice them like that. Instead of drawing them, why not try shading to define it?

[OneThinkingGal and ._.]

Without changing the original TOO much:



The main problem with this is its not a woman's stance basically. Women don't stand with thier feet planted that far apart, nor do their arms stay that far away from thier body straight out.

I drew these a while back and they're dollz not sprites but you might get an idea of what I mean: http://yadayada.fateback.com/dollz.html

[SSH]

I'll change the neck but not the hands, even if I draw cartoony it doesn't mean I follow that "four-fingers-on-the-hand" cliché.

Well, of course, it's just my opinion, anyway   Compare it with my own drawings and you'll see that those who can't do, criticize...

But what I meant with the hands is not to have 4-finger hands, but rather that if you look at someone standing up facing you, they won't have all 5 digits facing you: more likely, their thumb and index finger are visible, but their other 3 fingers are only partly visible behind them.

EDIT:

: Oh, OTG has done exactly what I meant. If I could draw I would have shown you, honest guv  

OTG- If women don't stand with their legs like that, why does your avatar?    Seriously, though, great pics OTG! I did quite like Mats' "big hair" tho...

[OneThinkingGal and ._.]

OTG- If women don't stand with their legs like that, why does your avatar?    Seriously, though, great pics OTG! I did quite like Mats' "big hair" tho...

LOL I never even noticed. Oh well ^_^ there's a time and a place for every stance, and that one seems to suit the mood.  

[Mats Berglinn]

Now I have made some more changes to Naomi and shaded her a bit after OneThinkingGal's example. I didn't know how to make the boobs rounder so I just shaded them. It's quite tricky to make things round without making them to big in Adobe Photoshop. How is it now.

[Jimi]

I think the skin colour is a little too dark. Try the colour I use:

Hue:15
Sat:240
Lum:198

I'm using it for Rodney McNab.

[Vel]

A critique expert opinion: STOP DRAWING IN PAINT.

[Jimi]

...It's quite tricky to make things round without making them to big in Adobe Photoshop....

He's not using paint!

[OneThinkingGal and ._.]

Photoshop isnt very good for small sprites IMO. Try PSP or neopaint. They let you work better at the pixel level.

[scotch]

I like photoshop best for small sprites (or anything really) :p

But in truth at this level all you're using is a 1 px brush at 100% opacity.  Doesn't really matter.

Did you mean to IM me btw Mats_Berglinn?  it seemed a bit random.

Also is your game 256 or high colour?  high colour sprites should be shaded imo, or at least antialised in the interior.

[Mats Berglinn]

But I don't have any of those programs.

[OneThinkingGal and ._.]

Links are in the tutorial thread.

[Mats Berglinn]

Uh... I wasn't sure I could find those. Could you put the links here, please?

[Flippy_D]

They're in the critics lounge, in a sticky thread at the top.

[Mats Berglinn]

No, they're NOT. I have checked at those adresses and there are only tuts for PSP and none of the adresses mentions Neopaint at all. Where is the adresses for downloading those programs? Tell me before I go nuts!!!

[OneThinkingGal and ._.]

Well you COULD have just googled the addresses. You can get PSP at www.jasc.com and Ultimate paint at http://www.ultimatepaint.com/ neopaint at http://www.neosoftware.com/npw.html

Not that the tools will make the technique, if you draw like that in photoshop, you'll draw the same in any program, just that I think they let you look at pixels better. You don't need to download them, you can just continue with PS if you prefer.

[Mats Berglinn]

So if I want to make Naomi more rounder and less squary should I download the programs or what? It's quite tricky to make small pixel characters round. I mean how did you make your avatar so perfectly round (not pixel like squares like my Crocis avatar)? It would be thankfull if you could give me some tips and hints. Oh and by the way thanks for the links.

[OneThinkingGal and ._.]

The avatar was in flash, which is more of a vector tool than a pixeller.

As for how to get them rounder, well shading helps, you don't have to draw round lines.

[Mats Berglinn]

Ok, thanks OTG. Here is another version of Naomi that have been altered after opinions of Jimi and Belphegor. With Paint I made up a human-skin like color to make it more realistic (Jimi's opinion) and I have put her legs together because Belphegor thought they were to seperated.



Myself I'm starting to get satisfied with Naomi but just in case I will see if you like it better too. Here's your last chance for options on how to change or make it even better.

[DragonRose]

I'm lazy and don't really feel like drawing, so here is Dragonrose's wonderful ASCII woman and man (both drawings only go to the hips)
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Pretty crappy, eh? She's wearing a skirt.  Anyway, the idea of having breasts can be shown pretty well if you do a good hourglass shape, then a line under the pectorals.  Men are more triangle shaped, though they can also be drawn with just straight lines.

I'm begging, don't use the loopy W shaped breasts. Ordinarily, there just isn't that much definition between one breast and the other when a woman is fully clothed.

Hope that helps!

[DragonRose]

I'm lazy and don't really feel like drawing, so here is Dragonrose's wonderful ASCII woman and man (both drawings only go to the hips)
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Pretty crappy, eh? Anyway, the idea of having breasts can be shown pretty well if you do a good hourglass shape, then a line under the pectorals.  Men are more triangle shaped, though they can also be drawn with just straight lines.

I'm begging, don't use the loopy W shaped breasts. Ordinarily, there just isn't that much definition between one breast and the other when a woman is fully clothed.

[Mats Berglinn]

Hey, Dragonrose. You double-replied. What do you mean with that you said about the breasts? I mean when you draw a character foward you can actually see them (or rather should see them) and when they are fully clothed they don't look so much difference to each other and also Naomi's melons both have them same size (even if it's quite uncommon, if you see what I mean). Anything else?

[Jimi]

I think it is good. But take into account how old Naomi is. If she is 19 or something, (like you Mats) I doubt she would have breasts that big!

[DragonRose]

Sorry about the double post.  Anyway, I did a little 20 second edit in paint.  You already had a nice hourglass shape, so I didn't need to change that.  I just erased the loopy breasts, and drew a line underneath where they would be, then I shaded it.  It doesn't look like she's going to fall over anymore.

[Mats Berglinn]

Hey! Now you have ruined it!

I won't accept that! It looks like she has a wide chest but with no boobs which is just horrible.

Jimi: She is around 19 but I like big breasts so what? Who said that young slim woman don't have big breasts? It's the same with fat women, some don't have big boobs. And before any of you guys ask, no they're not siliconed, they're real (if you would call it real since she's not for real).

[Flippy_D]

That's not ruined it, that's made it look a hundred times better, it's exactly what I was talking about, using shading to show shape. Anyway, presumably this is going to have a side on view, correct? well then, her breasts are not going to chage size depending on which way she's facing, so make it obvious on the side view.

You kids and your Lara Crofts.

[Mats Berglinn]

She isn't based on Lara Croft, trust me! Besides I have seen even bigger boobs than LC's (no kidding), so knock it off Flip!

I have by the way decided that my latest version will be the final version because I'm 100 % satisfied with it. That will be Naomi McCallister in the game Hawaiian Treasure. No more changes now. Maybe I'll post other sides of Naomi profile and from behind.

[OneThinkingGal and ._.]

Hey! Now you have ruined it!

I won't accept that! It looks like she has a wide chest but with no boobs which is just horrible.

Jimi: She is around 19 but I like big breasts so what? Who said that young slim woman don't have big breasts? It's the same with fat women, some don't have big boobs. And before any of you guys ask, no they're not siliconed, they're real (if you would call it real since she's not for real).

Well, that was rather rude. Actually no, it was very rude. You asked for help, she tried to help and you yelled at her.

If you didn't like the changes she made to it, you could have thanked her and told her that that wasn't the look you were going for.

She took time out to edit the pic to show you what she meant and got this in return. I don't think you'll find many people helping you if you keep this attitude.

[Archy in Germany]

Also, Dragon's change makes the woman (girl?) look far more attractive, which I suppose is the look you're trying for. Instead of big, your picture looks more... saggy?

Anyway, that's my advice, take it or leave it.

[Mats Berglinn]

Yeah, ok, ok, I'm sorry! I'm very very very sorry, Dragonrose! I have quite short-temper and there some things I can't tolerate. I hope you can forgive me but I didn't like the way you changed it.

Well, I guess that AIG have right. But still want (please stop picking at me for this, please ) her breasts to be vinisble. Could you guys make it better without having to make the melons disappair or something? I'm very sorry for being mean, so please don't ignore me :'(.  

[Flippy_D]

But they're still there, you wouldn't have shading there for no reason! And like I said, the side view would make it as obvious as you want!

/exasperated.

[Dave Gilbert]

Flippy is right.  From the front you want to show breasts by subtle shading.  From the side you can draw them as big as you like.

[SSH]

I suggest that next time you see a woman with the correct proportions, you ask her if you can take some photos to help you draw the shadows right... it may not help your drawin but at least you'd have some nice photos  

[Mats Berglinn]

Okay, thanks for all your suggestions.   Until I have seen a pic of a woman foward so I know how to shade, I have altered Naomi's breats a bit. But will try hard to find a way to shade her chest as you requested but if I can't well you know...



I have also made her in profile which I did in some minutes (manybe eight minutes total time, I dunno). I'm not sure about her hair and arm, so tell me if there's something wrong with them. Well, I will welcome other critics and if there's something I don't like I just tell it in a nice way, so don't worry, I won't get angry again.



And by the way, I have missed her ear, sorry.

[n3tgraph]

try looking to dragon's pic... The shirt doesn't take the exact form of the breasts.

And the sideview - hm.. again those breasts, they look like a lump or a zits.

take a look:


See what I mean
The front is improved a lot, but I still like dragonrose's way

[Mats Berglinn]

try looking to dragon's pic... The shirt doesn't take the exact form of the breasts.

I see you point but still... don't you actually see that on picture. But I don't know. Maybe it's just me.

And the sideview  - hm.. again those breasts, they look like a lump or a zits.

take a look:


See what I mean

Yeah, maybe you're right. Naomi's boobs are suppoused to be natural, not siliconed or altered by plastic surgery. I'll see what I can do about it. By the way aren't your example a bit... hangy?   I mean no offense, maybe I'm wrong but it seems like a bit of older women's breasts (like granny or so).

The front is improved a lot, but I still like dragonrose's way

Thanks for that you thought it was an improvement but like I said, I will try to find a way to shade those.

[Flippy_D]

Actually, I reckon that's pretty accurate insofar as shape goes from the side. The new front view is much improved, well done.

[Mats Berglinn]

Flippy: I didn't really get what you mean by the first line. Do you mean that the pic is more precisly how draw 'em?

NT3Grath: When I look at your example and mine of Naomi in profile, I saw that the breast is like a zit. At least I think so. I'm not judging too much at details so it maybe my judgement that misses out those things. I wonder if it really are like your exampe, or is it? I don't know. My mind is kinda split, so I don't know what is right or wrong at the moment.

Any more oppinions?

[MrColossal]

ok don't click this unless you want to see a naked femal model http://fineart.sk/photo77.jpg

see her breasts? those are pretty large in comparison to the average sized breast, see her from the front, you can barely see them

but that's real life, not cartoon

what you're doing is cartoon so no one can really tell you that you are wrong if that is the style you are going for, but since you asked for a crit here it is

a breast from the side sags, all breasts that have mass sag and you don't have to be 80 to have a sagging breast see http://fineart.sk/photo76.jpg it just depends on the firmness of the breast http://fineart.sk/posture48.jpg

this is just the human body

this woman also has breasts like what i think you are trying to achieve http://fineart.sk/posture52.jpg  her too http://fineart.sk/posture50.jpg

you're character is probably wearing a bra, but no bra would really hoist the breasts up that high and hold them there, unless that's the cartoon look you want, but everyone will think fake plastic breasts

also notice the arms and legs, they go straight down and stop at just above mid thigh

the legs you have drawn come together right at the bottom of the skirt, try seperating the thighs a little so it looks like the legs go up under the skirt and continue to the pelvis

eric

[Mats Berglinn]

I see what you mean. But honestly, the first pic, do you call those "big" (now, please don't get uproared, gals and guys, it's just a personal opinion)? So the legs are weird? Well, let's see what I can do about it. If I don't do it tomorrow, maybe I will fix them when I come back from Spain(I go there tomorrow night). I'm trying to keep the lenght so it won't get shorter or taller than the front pic of Naomi. By the way, you didn't mentioned what was wrong with the arms. Were they to long or "wrong" placed or something?

Ok, so the looks are cartoony but the actions and events are more of realistic things than cartoon (maybe apart from the Voodoo-magic). You can't tell it but of course Naomi wears a bra.   She is not that kind of a type thats a beauty with no brain (by the way I hate that cliché) but she is a beauty with a brain. I just you want to know it, it's not importaint for the story or how the characters are drawn. But one thing's for sure, Naomi isn't the only female character in Hawaiian Treasure but one of very few (maybe I should discuss about male and female characters in General forum).

Anything else?

[MrColossal]

look at the picture of the women and then look at the sprite you made, can you see any differences you want to change? that's the best advice i can give you without walking you through step by step as you draw the sprite

do the arms look different to you? do you care if they don't look natural? it's all up to you and what you're willing to put into the image i'm not going to break your sprite down any more when the best information has already been said and is contained in the images i posted...

and i don't want to get into a debate about breast size... but you do know that the average breast size isn't double L right? that it varies from region to region and is usually C... so yes, those breasts are larger than average

[Rincewind]

Really nice sprite, Mats, but as others have said, it could use some improvements. I'm not going in to the debate about how womens breasts look, but I have made a little modofication of Naomi myself...

Just some small things, such as double-pixels and some proportions.
I haven't touched her face, since that was incredible as it was.
Her feet looked a bit akward standing out like that, so I put them pointing forwards instead.



Hope you approve of it.

[n3tgraph]

wow rince, that's a great improvement,

though I have some comments on your pic....
Assuming this is an attractive woman, either her shoulders are too wide or her hips are tho thin, or a combination of them...


but the legs are a lot better

[Jimi]

I like this pic, but I think you could make the shoulders thinner. They are too big, and make her look very "big", but when you look at the hips, she seems thin. I still think it is good though.

[n3tgraph]

I like this pic, but I think you could make the shoulders thinner. They are too big, and make her look very "big", but when you look at the hips, she seems thin. I still think it is good though.

didn't I just say that?

[Jimi]

yes, but I wanted to second your comment.  

[Rincewind]

N3TGraph & Jimi:
Yep, you are both correct...
I might change it, but  it was mainly the arms and feet I was amining at.
As I said, I hope Mats won't be offended by me changing it around a bit...

[Jimi]

I doubt it. It looks MUCH better than the original as the legs and arms are no longer giant, and the boobs no longer make her look like a model for an "adult site"  

[n3tgraph]

hey no offence jimi, it doesn't matter

as for the picture, I don't know he was pretty offended when dragon rose made it quite better too

* N3TGraph puts a helm on Rince

But the arms and legs sure improved

[Rincewind]

N3TGraph:
Yeah, I know... That's why I'm being a bit careful... Thanks for the helm, I always wanted one...  



Just a touch up this, with thinner shoulders and other things...

[n3tgraph]

looks better everytime I start wondering what mats will think of it

But now she looks a bit too young, maybe the hips should be a bit wider - she shouldn't look down and she should smile a bit more

[remixor]

Wow, good job Mats and assorted helpers  :o
I hope I get this much feedback when I start submitting concepts of the game I'm working on  

[Rincewind]

Ok, this is where I stop... Hehe... I was just toying around a bit for my own sake, and I'll wait for Mats comments before I start changing her face or hips...
Thanks anyway!

Remixor:
I'm sure you will, man!

[n3tgraph]

Hey, I'll help anyone (if I can)
And if your name isn't remixor

just kidding

[remixor]

N3TGraph:  


BTW, I now DO have something posted in the Critics Lounge; I'd really appreciate you guys checking it out!  

[Mats Berglinn]

Rincewind, thanks for updating the front for Naomi, she looks more better this way, and thanks for drawing the shoes foward. It's quite hard for me to draw shoes or feet in front like that on both male and female characters.

I have come back from Spain and I'll try to fix the Naomi side veiw and also make her from behind.

But now she looks a bit too young, maybe the hips should be a bit wider - she shouldn't look down and she should smile a bit more

Is she really too young? I didn't noticed. Naomi is suppoused to be almost as old as I am (I have become 20 about yesterday). But wider hips? To be logical (I think) you really can't she those because she wears a shirt but maybe you're right. I don't really know if she should smile. In the game she is keeps getting tracked down two men who want her because she have a secret about a treasure which she needs to find and in which I (yes, I'm the main-character in the game Hawaiian Treasure) have to find. If you compair with early adventure games like Monkey Island and Day of the Tentacle, most characters dont have smiles on their faces so I didn't mind about that Naomi doesn't smile but if you guys thinks it's necessary then I'll fix it.

[n3tgraph]

ummm well

Lemme say this, if it weren't for the tits and long hair I'd say she's 12
and I think she shouldn't look down

but maybe that's just me

[AlphaMole]

*edit; erm.. nevermind*

[Rincewind]

You're welcome, Mats!
I usually have problems drawing shoes from the front too, but this time it went really good.
And as for her age, I had no idea she was supposed to be in her 20's, so I sort of though of her as an teenager... Oops. :  

[Mats Berglinn]

That's okay. I'm very satisfied with the final version. I don't really think she looks like teen. Maybe I could widen her skirt a bit. But I wait with that until I have done her other veiws and the other things for the game, Hawaiian Treasure.

[Rincewind]

Okely-dokely-doo. I'll be waiting patiently for the release!