Author Topic: Trumpmageddon  (Read 33063 times)

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #220 on: 17 Nov 2016, 16:24 »
Darth, for somebody calling people out for disrespecting other opinions, you sure show a lot of disrespect for other people's opinions. Practice what you preach.

Darth Mandarb

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #221 on: 17 Nov 2016, 16:28 »
And I've never stated otherwise. My dear Sith Lord, I have a lot of respect for you, and until these last few posts this was a very interesting discussion. I don't want to be angry with anyone, but your "propaganda" post, and this last question really bother me. Are you sure you're not confusing me with someone else? I've expressed my worries, I've tried to explain why I tend to hold people responsible for their vote, and I explained why I oppose certain attitudes. But could you please quote a passage where I indicated that everybody has to share my opinion?

No worries Problem. I really wasn't trying to bother or offend you, I promise!

You never said people had to share your opinion. That wasn't what I was saying (or implying).

I feel fairly confident saying that pretty much everybody who's contributed to this topic feels Trump is a "bad" person.

Could his presidency be disastrous for the world? Yes, it could.

Could it be not so bad? I think it's possible (and I'm hoping for it).

I'm not judging you for your feelings about Trump supporters, just expressing that I don't fully agree with you.

I, personally, do not feel comfortable labeling people "bad" (who I know to be good people) just because they voted for Trump.

There's just too many factors involved in backing a candidate for me to feel justified in making assumptions about a person's character based on which candidate they chose.

Especially when they only have 2 [real] candidates to choose from.

Maybe you disagree and, to you, there was a clear-cut "better" candidate so anybody who wouldn't back her is wrong.

I can accept that.

I just disagree :D

for somebody calling people out for disrespecting other opinions, you sure show a lot of disrespect for other people's opinions

I respect your opinion.

Could you please quote something I said that you interpreted as disrespect for somebody else's opinion?

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #222 on: 17 Nov 2016, 17:07 »
I, personally, do not feel comfortable labeling people "bad" (who I know to be good people) just because they voted for Trump.

There's just too many factors involved in backing a candidate for me to feel justified in making assumptions about a person's character based on which candidate they chose.

Especially when they only have 2 [real] candidates to choose from.

Maybe you disagree and, to you, there was a clear-cut "better" candidate so anybody who wouldn't back her is wrong.

I can accept that.

I just disagree :D


No, I actually agree with you. I would not call anybody "bad" for how they voted. But my main concern is that some people are too careless with their votes. I mean, come on, if someone votes for Trump he or she should at least partially agree with him. And for me it's easier to understand (rationally, not ethically) that someone votes for Trump because he or she actually agrees with him and thinks his plans are great. Like it or not, but there is a logic behind such a vote.
But there are clearly people who are not racist, bigoted, homophobic or sexist, people who don't care about his policy at all. People who voted for Trump just to shake up the establishment for example (generously ignoring that Trump has always been part of the establishment, but that's a different topic). And while the intentions may be good, this can be very dangerous if you do it just for the heck of it, not taking into account what this candidate stands for.
Add to that that I'm German and that we have some experience with what can happen if too many people vote with their guts instead of their brains(*), and you know the reason why I'm arguing so passionately against a "doesn't matter" or "nothing will change anyway" attitude. Because things can change radically, and voting is not just there to annoy the people. It can make a difference, for the better or for the worse.

(*) before somebody gets this wrong: no, Trump is not Hitler.
« Last Edit: 17 Nov 2016, 17:15 by Problem »

Darth Mandarb

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #223 on: 17 Nov 2016, 18:50 »
No, I actually agree with you. I would not call anybody "bad" for how they voted. But my main concern is that some people are too careless with their votes. I mean, come on, if someone votes for Trump he or she should at least partially agree with him. And for me it's easier to understand (rationally, not ethically) that someone votes for Trump because he or she actually agrees with him and thinks his plans are great. Like it or not, but there is a logic behind such a vote.

You have nailed most of my problems with our election system in that small paragraph!

Add to that that I'm German and that we have some experience with what can happen if too many people vote with their guts instead of their brains(*), and you know the reason why I'm arguing so passionately against a "doesn't matter" or "nothing will change anyway" attitude. Because things can change radically, and voting is not just there to annoy the people. It can make a difference, for the better or for the worse.

I made a joke the other day about how the voting booths should have a test you have to take after you cast your ballot so only those voting with their brains would have a valid vote.

Like there's 100 questions for each candidate (each question has 10 variations on how it's asked) and their policies/beliefs/agenda.

The booth's test would select 20 random questions/variants from the pool.

The voter selects their answer to each question. The system doesn't tell them if they got it right or wrong and doesn't tell them if they pass or fail.

If you pass the test, your vote counts. Don't pass the test, your vote isn't counted.

Then we could see:

Total Votes for Trump: 61,270,312
Valid Votes for Trump: 17

(laugh)

Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #224 on: 18 Nov 2016, 02:45 »
[Trump] sounds, as usual, like he has no real idea what he's talking about [..]
He has my vote! (roll)

Anyway you keep speaking of how Hillary was more evil than Trump, care to elaborate without the "9mm vs Star Wars pistol" analogies? Was it just a gut feeling, that sinister smirk of hers? It can't be about money or hunger for power - because that's also Trump. For instance, if  I recall correctly, the drone strikes are so far the only evil thing you've denounced. Yet Trump openly saying he'll kill the families of terrorists, or his potential use of nukes, is (for some reason) a more acceptable strategy. With Trump you were never left to guess what kind of person he was or what he opposed, as he couldn't keep his thoughts to himself, regardless of how sinister and barbaric or completely false they were, he openly expressed it. Anyway I believe I'm through initial shock of this "Trumpageddon" and so the anger has subsided, now instead of directing hatred towards Trump supporters, it's now pity.

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #225 on: 18 Nov 2016, 11:04 »
Nice to see things finally calming down in here. :-D
I was starting to get worried.

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #226 on: 18 Nov 2016, 11:06 »
Nice to see things finally calming down in here. :-D
I was starting to get worried.

If by "calming down" you mean that one side has successfully hounded the other away from participating, then yes.

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #227 on: 18 Nov 2016, 12:08 »
I made a joke the other day about how the voting booths should have a test you have to take after you cast your ballot so only those voting with their brains would have a valid vote.

Like there's 100 questions for each candidate (each question has 10 variations on how it's asked) and their policies/beliefs/agenda.

The booth's test would select 20 random questions/variants from the pool.

The voter selects their answer to each question. The system doesn't tell them if they got it right or wrong and doesn't tell them if they pass or fail.

If you pass the test, your vote counts. Don't pass the test, your vote isn't counted.

Then we could see:

Total Votes for Trump: 61,270,312
Valid Votes for Trump: 17

(laugh)

The question is why so many people aren't informed or simply don't care about the candidates' agendas. One thing is probably education. Democracy doesn't work if people have no clue what they are voting for or against, it depends on citiźens that have at least a basic knowledge about how things work in their country and in the world. And that is difficult to achieve in times that become more and more complex. Being overwhelmed, people tend to look for simple answers, but there are none.

Another thing is the election campaign, and this is where the candidates and political parties are directly responsible. The more emotional a political campaign gets, the less likely people are to vote rationally. And I think we agree that this campaign was full of emotions - mostly negative.
It's also something inherent in two party systems or systems where the parties are divided into two big camps. My impression (judging from outside, so correct me if I'm wrong) was that during Obama's time in office, most Republicans were not interested in what is good for the people, they were mostly interested in "winning", opposing Obama just for the sake of opposing him. This attitude solves no problems and pushes the policies into the background, and for some Republicans who were against Trump, it might have backfired, because Trump is the next logical step on this way.


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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #228 on: 18 Nov 2016, 12:12 »
(I did NOT read through the whole thread, so feel free to ignore this post if you feel it lacks context in some way. This is mostly just my two cents in reply to the first post of the thread.)

Despite being European (Finnish to be precise) I watched the pre-election and the election with a lot of interest and tried to do some reading up on both primary candidates and their campaign messages. While neither of the two are especially good candidates, I do feel that Trump was by far the lesser of two evils, especially from the European point of view.

Clinton drove, as part of her past career and her bid for presidency, a tougher attitude towards Russia, a country already floundering and starting to get desperate due to economic sanctions and rapidly growing inflation due to US and EU actions, as well as America taking a more aggressive role in Syria through establishing and enforcing a no-fly zone that would ground Russian and Syrian aircraft in Syria, an act that many, myself included, feared would lead to an open armed conflict between US and Russia (as the idea that Syria and Russia would just allow the US to set the rules in Syria is, in my opinion, laughable).

Trump, instead, has talked of warming up the US / Russia relations, lowering economic barriers and sanctions and reducing hostility in how the two nations interact directly and indirectly. Additionally Trump's view on the EU and NATO have been far more realistic and, while admittedly self-centered (America First, Make America Great Again), practical in wishing to reduce the US's role as the aggressive world police and the dominant military power in Europe, instead expecting European nations to care for European defense interests. It is no wonder that Putin has had a far warmer response to Trump throughout the campaign, as of the two candidates, Trump was not the one openly aggressive and hostile towards him.

As for matters that do not as directly affect Europe and me, such as America's relations with China and Mexico, I can easily see why Trump's campaign message was far better received than Clinton's. His views are selfish and self-centered, but as he represents the United States, he is by extension interested in advancing their national agenda, even at the cost of international popularity. If he can do what he says he wants to do: create jobs and reinforce the US economy into a more effective and competitive entity, I believe that will also be a long-term positive to Europe as well.

The upcoming 4 years will be interesting, and I will be curious to see which parts of Trump's campaign translate into actual acts and changes. All in all I feel the US elected a president that well represents the public image of their nation. I hope he does well and that the unrest and violence in the schools and streets of the US calm down soon.
« Last Edit: 18 Nov 2016, 13:08 by WHAM »
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Darth Mandarb

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #229 on: 18 Nov 2016, 12:42 »
Anyway you keep speaking of how Hillary was more evil than Trump

I do?

Nice to see things finally calming down in here. :-D
I was starting to get worried.

I find that when common-sense and reasoning are used properly, things can remain civil.

Some just can't see that though.

The question is why so many people aren't informed or simply don't care about the candidates' agendas. One thing is probably education. Democracy doesn't work if people have no clue what they are voting for or against, it depends on citiźens that have at least a basic knowledge about how things work in their country and in the world. And that is difficult to achieve in times that become more and more complex. Being overwhelmed, people tend to look for simple answers, but there are none.

Education is the key. I said it a bit earlier; the problem, as I see it, is that there's too much information/disinformation that's so easily accessible.

Sure some are lazy and don't bother to look.

Others look, study, and get exhausted trying to sort through the data to find what's real and what's fake and just give up.

Others look and just believe the first thing they read and don't research it (this is the biggest problem I think).

Then there are some (I would suspect in a minority here) that sort through it all and have an informed opinion.

This is another one of those "I have no idea how to fix it" problems because the Pandora's box of the information world is opened and can't (shouldn't) be closed.

Another thing is the election campaign, and this is where the candidates and political parties are directly responsible. The more emotional a political campaign gets, the less likely people are to vote rationally. And I think we agree that this campaign was full of emotions - mostly negative.

Sickeningly so!

It's also something inherent in two party systems or systems where the parties are divided into two big camps. My impression (judging from outside, so correct me if I'm wrong) was that during Obama's time in office, most Republicans were not interested in what is good for the people, they were mostly interested in "winning", opposing Obama just for the sake of opposing him. This attitude solves no problems and pushes the policies into the background, and for some Republicans who were against Trump, it might have backfired, because Trump is the next logical step on this way.

Total agreement. 

It's less about what is good for the people/country and more about not letting the other side get what they want.

Want to get a motion put forth? The other side won't allow it, no matter how good it is, unless you allow them to piggy-back something of theirs on top of it.

It's like young children throwing tantrums on the playground because they didn't get the toy they wanted.

It prevents real progress, in my opinion.

I hope he does well and that the unrest and violence in the schools and streets of the US calm down soon.

Here's hoping!

As for the rest of what you wrote that may well be the first time (is in this thread at the very least) I have heard somebody offer up an informed opinion on Trump that was positive and/or optimistic.

I'm curious to see the responses...

« Last Edit: 18 Nov 2016, 13:02 by Darth Mandarb »

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #230 on: 18 Nov 2016, 17:33 »
More Washington's Blog below. They are so far the only publication I've seen that have not taken a side in this election. In fact, they warned people to be very weary of the evil empire trump inherited.

But this, at least to me, is good news. I hope he takes the job.

Great News On Trump Appointment

PS: Apparently hillary can still become president if trump dies before 19 Dec (electoral college vote). If that happens, and it's not unlikely, it will be the end of the united states.
« Last Edit: 18 Nov 2016, 17:40 by Jack »

Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #231 on: 18 Nov 2016, 19:38 »
PS: Apparently hillary can still become president if trump dies before 19 Dec (electoral college vote). If that happens, and it's not unlikely, it will be the end of the united states.

That's hyperbole.  The same could be said about Trump living to become president.  And I'm not even sure if he needs to die.  From what I have been led to believe, there are enough electoral college votes that are not bound by a winner-take-all rule to prevent Trump from becoming president as it is.  Maybe I'm wrong on that, though, but I can still hope.

Anyways, I can understand that some people think Trump would be better for the economy.  I don't agree, but at least I can understand this as a reason for voting in support of Trump.  But the economic issues in this election pale in comparison to the social issues.  And when you compare their positions on social issues, that's when the real separation comes into play.  While I can see economic positions as opposing but well-intentioned, I cannot see the same in social issues.  The only good intentions in hatred are completely misguided and largely irrelevant.

So in my opinion, if one was to say that they support Trump on economic issues, but disagree with his social positions, one would be ignoring the more prominent and damaging factor in favor of the lesser.  To have a campaign run so much on the hatred, racism, misogyny, and xenophobia as Trump's campaign, I feel you would have to take these things into consideration.  Otherwise, you're doing yourself and your country a disservice, as these issues have the potential to bring a bigger impact to America.

So, while you can say you voted for Trump over Hillary because of economic issues (or any other issues that may be a factor), you are either ignoring the greater social threat to the point of possibly damaging the nation, or you are welcoming of these threats.  I'm not sure how one could see it differently, and I'd like to hear more from someone who does.

The same argument can be made about voting for Trump because he's ostensibly an outsider.  Basically, what I'm saying is that there are no issues that can outweigh racism, sexism, and xenophobia.

All in all I feel the US elected a president that well represents the public image of their nation.

This is true, and it's one of the saddest things about a Trump presidency.  If Trump is a reflection of the nation, the nation is in trouble.

Aside from that, I must admire your view as an outsider.  It's interesting to see the view that Hillary may be more damaging to the world outside the United States.  I'm not sure I agree, as Trump has actually advocated the use of nuclear weapons, and called for invasions of other nations in the past (among other things).  But I can respect the concept that a Hillary presidency might be more problematic for Europe.  So perhaps it's a bit self-centered for Americans to want Hillary instead of Trump (a majority of voters did, anyways).  We feel that she would be better domestically (if not also internationally) by working to end systemic racism, misogyny, and xenophobia, whereas Trump would work to exacerbate it (and campaigned with a rhetoric of doing just that).

One of the things I'm most worried about is how a Trump presidency could impact the Supreme Court.  In my opinion, it will only have a negative impact.  I really hope I'm wrong on this, as it could be one of the lasting legacies of the election, and one of the more damaging.
« Last Edit: 18 Nov 2016, 19:48 by dactylopus »

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #232 on: 18 Nov 2016, 19:51 »
Quote
From what I have been led to believe, there are enough electoral college votes that are not bound by a winner-take-all rule to prevent Trump from becoming president as it is.  Maybe I'm wrong on that, though, but I can still hope.
Yes, this is true. Very unlikely, but it's possible that the electoral college votes for Clinton. However, I'm not sure that one should hope for that. As much as I dislike Trump... if Clinton becomes president like this, there will be riots. And the current protests will pale in comparison.

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #233 on: 18 Nov 2016, 21:14 »
But the economic issues in this election pale in comparison to the social issues.

We've really run over both sides of this too many times in this thread, but I would say this is a matter of opinion and perspective. I feel that the racism and sexism aspects have been overblown by the media, in their well documented and desperate attempts to have hillary elected. Most of it is stuff from years ago, and all of that was used by the hillary campaign rather than by his own. The impression that I got personally is that he's crass and he says stupid shit, and that they latched on to these things, and their repeated coverage of this made it seem like this is the entirety of his campaign. I mean, it's no stretch to say that the mainstream media was completely biased during this election, and showed no restraint and complete disrespect for the unwritten contract with the public. They are, in my opinion, largely to blame for him being elected.

Secondly, I very much doubt that he will be allowed to get away with any nazi-like policies. Some outlets want to conflate his expulsion of illegal immigrants with hitler's treatment of the jews (in their continuing desperate biased fashion), but it's just not the same thing. He's going to be the most closely-watched president in history, if he makes it that far, and to the public that will be invaluable. Considering that hillary's plans for syria would most likely have resulted in war with russia, I personally think that any social issues have to be pretty severe to be more important than that. At the moment pretty much all of the social issues ascribed to him are conjecture, things he might do rather than things he promised to do.

I mean, to take some of the politically incorrect things he's said about jews as an example (which I quoted days back), I think it's critical to note that he said these things to jews, and not to neo-nazis. I would personally far prefer a leader who is openly an asshole, over one who is an asshole and hides it.

BTW Darth Mandarb mentioned a page or two back that he went looking for the nuclear quote and couldn't find it. It appears to be another overblown quotation taken out of context, and repeated ad nauseum. He did say something to the effect of "all cards are on the table", which, sadly is said far too often these days.

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #234 on: 18 Nov 2016, 21:53 »
Two links from my twitter echo chamber. More will follow I guess.

Trump's new CIA director Pompeo wants the NSA to carry out even more mass surveillance
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/national/national-security/article56869248.html

Jeff Sessions was deemed too racist to be a judge. He might become Trump's attorney general.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-attorney-general-jeff-sessions-racist-remarks_us_582cd73ae4b099512f80c0c2
(autoplay video!)


Edit:
Breaking news:


« Last Edit: 18 Nov 2016, 21:58 by Khris »

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #235 on: 18 Nov 2016, 22:29 »
Quote
At the moment pretty much all of the social issues ascribed to him are conjecture, things he might do rather than things he promised to do.
You can't say that all this is conjecture and at the same time write that Clinton's election would have led to a war with Russia. This is highly speculative.

But granted, looking at statements from before his campaign, Trump appears much more moderate than during his campaign (sometimes he says the exact opposite). One could argue that this means he will change again, now that the campaign is over. And clearly, many of his supporters are much more racist or homophobic than he is. But so are people in his staff, and that makes me less optimistic. Mike Pence is a homophobe, there's no talking around that. Khris just gave two more examples. And then there's Trump's new chief strategist, probably the worst of all.
« Last Edit: 18 Nov 2016, 23:11 by Problem »

Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #236 on: 19 Nov 2016, 04:19 »
Some outlets want to conflate his expulsion of illegal immigrants with hitler's treatment of the jews (in their continuing desperate biased fashion), but it's just not the same thing.

It is not the same thing, but it's bad enough.  It's tremendously xenphobic at best, and most definitely racist.  And this is an actual policy, an actual plan he has, not just charged rhetoric.

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #237 on: 19 Nov 2016, 04:32 »
Some outlets want to conflate his expulsion of illegal immigrants with hitler's treatment of the jews (in their continuing desperate biased fashion), but it's just not the same thing.

It is not the same thing, but it's bad enough.  It's tremendously xenphobic at best, and most definitely racist.  And this is an actual policy, an actual plan he has, not just charged rhetoric.

Yeah, it's not as if Hitler started by deporting religious minorities whom they blamed for a war before trying to exterminate them.

And even if it hadn't been done before, it's a tremendously monstrous thing to do to people. And it was even set out in his campaign plan, and he still wants to do it.


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« Last Edit: 19 Nov 2016, 05:36 by Scavenger »

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #238 on: 19 Nov 2016, 09:10 »
You can't say that all this is conjecture and at the same time write that Clinton's election would have led to a war with Russia. This is highly speculative.

Not all of it, but some of the things that people assume he will do. Deporting illegals is as concrete a promise as her no-fly zone. It's likely to happen. Most of the stuff people imagine he will do is pure conjecture though.

It is not the same thing, but it's bad enough.  It's tremendously xenphobic at best, and most definitely racist.  And this is an actual policy, an actual plan he has, not just charged rhetoric.

I disagree. By law they are not supposed to be there, and they are taking jobs that real citizens could do. It has nothing to do with xenophobia or racism. It has everything to do with enforcing the law and reclaiming jobs. As long as there are legal ways to become a citizen, I don't see a problem with deporting illegals.

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #239 on: 19 Nov 2016, 10:08 »
I lived as an immigrant in UK for 12 years. When border control asked me for a passport I did not think it was just like nazi Germany. When I had to fill out paperwork in order to get a job permit, I did not accuse the lady at the job centre of being Hitler. When I found myself at one point without home and only a tenner in my pocket, I did not accuse anyone of discrimination and did not demand that they give me anything - I had to do it all myself. I understand there are rules and procedures, and everyone has to follow them. Why would we make exceptions to some people but not other?...

Talking about controlling ILLEGAL immigration isn't anything new or horrible. It's how things always worked.