Author Topic: Trumpmageddon  (Read 32530 times)

Darth Mandarb

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #180 on: 16 Nov 2016, 00:08 »
Ughhhhhh. Ughhhhhh. Come on, don't get all sanctimonious on me. I've explained about five times already exactly what I meant, and getting all holier than thou "But you're being bigoted against Trump voters" is... Kind of insulting.

Its not that I don't understand their reasoning behind voting. But what they have done is incredibly harmful, and harmful things must be stopped. I'm sorry you don't think the rights of minority groups are more important than the rights of people to vote in really terrible candidates. But you're reaaaaaaaaaaaally implying that Trump hasn't actively campaigned for hatred and that the voters for him aren't complicit in enabling that hatred,thus have done something wrong that needs to be fixed.

The ultimate effect of their vote is:
- A lot of politicians who hate minorities are in high positions of power.
- Active bigotry has been validated, leading to an increase in  hate crime.
- even if Trump does none of the things set out in his campaign, there will still be a scary left by empowered bigots, who will lash out at minorities.

I do not hate Trump voters for who they are. If they fixed their mistake, if they showed active compassion towards my people instead of at best, willing indifference, I would cease hating them. My hatred is not bigotry, but more, resentment for an action. If someone stole from me, if someone attacked me, I would hate them for their crime until they atoned.

This is not a hatred for an opinion. This is seeing an injustice done and wanting it fixed.

And you gotta understand that. I don't hate them for who they are. I hate their willing enabling of oppression. As soon as they show that they're not enabling oppression but fighting back, that ends my disagreement with them.

This may come as a shock to you Scavenger but the world doesn't revolve around you and "your people" (as you called them, just so you don't wrongly accuse me of discrimination again).

That's not discrimination, it's not sanctimony, it's not hatred, it's not bigotry, and it's not harmful. It's reality.

You think voting Trump was harmful. Is it too hard to conceive that maybe they think voting Clinton was harmful, and that harmful things must be stopped?

Let's say Clinton had a policy that would directly affect your parents (brother/sister/whatever) in a very negative way, and it scared you terribly for their future.
Would you still vote for her to prevent what Trump might do if he wins?

Let's say a Trump supporter was to tell you that he sees Clinton's policy of "ABC" (whatever) as a direct threat to his family's future and that's why he's voting for Trump.
Would you call him a hateful bigot because he wants to protect his family? More succinctly, would you insist he's not voting Trump for the reasons he claims, but rather the reasons you claim? Do you actually think you know his reasons better than he does?

People can back a candidate on countless factors that have nothing to do with you (or those like you).

If you are unwilling to accept this fact then you are, in my opinion, just being obstinately and intolerantly devoted to your own opinions and prejudices and we should just agree to disagree and move on.

I will still be a big fan of your artwork (nod)

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #181 on: 16 Nov 2016, 00:21 »
Let's say a Trump supporter was to tell you that he sees Clinton's policy of "ABC" (whatever) as a direct threat to his family's future and that's why he's voting for Trump.

No, not "ABC" (whatever), we're discussing real threats to women and minorities. Things that actually might happen. You can't draw a parallel between homophobia and a detail-free hypothetical.

What is the compelling fear that motivated this Trump voter? Can you argue that it's just as rational and substantial as the fear Scavenger is expressing?

You need to engage with the issues and do that if you're going to argue that the two candidates were as bad as each other.

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #182 on: 16 Nov 2016, 00:41 »
Hillary's support of the TPP would have handed the nation's sovereignty over to corporations under ISDS, allowing them to do whatever they felt most profitable, leaving the people with no legal recourse to change this, for one thing.

If trump's voters are responsible for his policies, then when are the people who voted for obama being charged for all his collateral drone kills? Would hillary's voters have been responsible for the civilian deaths resulting from her no-fly zone over syria, and the war with russia which follows?

Darth Mandarb

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #183 on: 16 Nov 2016, 00:46 »
No, not "ABC" (whatever), we're discussing real threats to women and minorities. Things that actually might happen. You can't draw a parallel between homophobia and a detail-free hypothetical.

Oh please, that's absolute nonsense.

Scavenger can answer hypothetical questions. It's not hard.

Scavenger

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #184 on: 16 Nov 2016, 00:55 »
This may come as a shock to you Scavenger but the world doesn't revolve around you and "your people" (as you called them, just so you don't wrongly accuse me of discrimination again).

Okay, so if gay and trans people don't get to fear for their lives because it's legal in 49/50 states to murder them "in a panic" and we've just elected someone who chose a vice president who is in support of torturing them until they cry that they're straight to make it stop and has repeatedly tried to defund HIV prevention in order to fund that, what about:
  • Black people, whom Trump has repeatedly wanted to "law and order" over, and reintroduce stop and frisk, and for whom beating them up is normal and good?
  • Latinx people, whom Trump called rapists and drug pushers, and called for the mass deportation of?
  • Muslims, whom Trump wants to have labelled and banned from entering America?
  • The disabled, whom Trump openly mocked and wants to remove the healthcare for?
  • Women, whom Trump thinks is totally normal and good to grope and assault?
  • Jewish people, whom Trump's lead strategist has lead a propaganda campaign against in his newspaper non stop since his inception?

By saying, the world doesn't revolve around the people I care about, which is, by the way, all minorities, since we're all in this together, not just the intersections I myself belong to, who are you saying it does revolve around? White people?

And yeah, I'd like an actual thing Clinton has proposed that's on the level of all of these, please. The life of real people is not to be debated with devil's advocate hypotheticals.

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #185 on: 16 Nov 2016, 00:57 »
Jack has said something I sort of agree with. Had she won, Clinton supporters would absolutely have had to accept that they supported the USA's appalling use of drones in Pakistan and elsewhere. If a Pakistani American told me they couldn't support Obama or Clinton because of this, I would disagree but understand. If they told me that's why they voted for Trump, I would disagree and not understand. I would argue, as others have extensively in this thread, that there's no reason to imagine that Trump's foreign policy will be any less bloody than Clinton's would have been. An allegiance with Putin's repressive regime may not prove to be as delightful as some Trump supporters imagine. Trump said he wanted to attack ISIS with nuclear weapons and that US soldiers should target the families of terrorists (a war crime).

Darth - as Scavenger says, you're asking us to weigh a substantial threat to the equality of gay people against a generalised feeling that something Clinton was going to do would have been bad. You must see how the specifics matter.

EDIT: Darth, on that one you're  gent.
« Last Edit: 16 Nov 2016, 01:22 by Ali »

Darth Mandarb

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #186 on: 16 Nov 2016, 01:19 »
Okay, so if gay and trans people don't get to fear for their lives because it's legal in 49/50 states to murder them "in a panic" and we've just elected someone who chose a vice president who is By saying, the world doesn't revolve around the people I care about, which is, by the way, all minorities, since we're all in this together, not just the intersections I myself belong to, who are you saying it does revolve around? White people?

Once again you completely missed the point and, instead, try to accuse me of something I didn't even remotely hint at. Please stop doing that.

And yeah, I'd like an actual thing Clinton has proposed that's on the level of all of these, please. The life of real people is not to be debated with devil's advocate hypotheticals.

Darth - as Scavenger says, you're asking us to weigh a substantial threat to the equality of gay people against a generalised feeling that something Clinton was going to do would have been bad. You must see how the specifics matter.

Absolutely! I can totally see how there might be factors to how Scavenger would answer that I hadn't considered before.

I withdraw the questions.
« Last Edit: 16 Nov 2016, 01:33 by Darth Mandarb »

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #187 on: 16 Nov 2016, 01:32 »
Once again you completely missed the point and, instead, try to accuse me of something I didn't even remotely hint at. Please stop doing that.

Honestly I've spent most of my life with people saying "The world doesn't revolve around gay people" when I'm trying to ask for basic rights and protections. It's kind of a sore point if you use that kind of language. It's just the way the language was being used which was really reminiscient.

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #188 on: 16 Nov 2016, 06:03 »
Snarky - I consider you a friend. Truly. But you have a frustrating habit of telling people what they are thinking/saying.

I really don't wish to keep repeating myself, or being called a moron for expressing my opinions.

We disagree. Let's just leave it at that and move on.

I truly hope the anger and intolerance that is permeating in this thread doesn't spread to the rest of the forums.

Be well.

If you find my posts frustratingly aggressive, rest assured that your passive-aggressive, above-it-all attitude is equally provocative to me.

In going back to discussions from previous elections I came across things you said back then, and I was using that context as well. For example, while I don't think this time around you've explicitly made an argument against voting, you did use the same points to make that argument in the past, and say it doesn't matter who is elected (and one that the Electoral College just chooses a winner regardless of how people vote). So I'm at a loss on how I can have distorted your position.

You say you don't want to repeat yourself, but the only thing I've actually asked of you is something I don't think I've ever seen in twelve years on this forum: A constructive explanation of how you would like the American political system to change, why you think the changes would make a meaningful difference, and a rationale for why, failing this, politics don't matter. For example, if you're going to argue, explicitly or implicitly, that George W. Bush and Barack H. Obama were "the same" as presidents, I'd like to hear what you think would be a good alternative, and what kind of political system might produce it.

Darth Mandarb

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #189 on: 16 Nov 2016, 12:59 »
Honestly I've spent most of my life with people saying "The world doesn't revolve around gay people" when I'm trying to ask for basic rights and protections. It's kind of a sore point if you use that kind of language. It's just the way the language was being used which was really reminiscient.

I can understand that (that language has power).

I was not saying (or even implying) that you have no basic rights and protections.

What I was saying was that you, to me, do not have more (or less) rights than a black woman, or a white man, or a straight person, or a child.

The world doesn't revolve around any of them.

The world revolves around the sun 93,000,000 miles away.

I do not like to talk online about the "things" I do in my personal life but I will say, for whatever it's worth, you and your people have an ally in me. I don't see that changing anytime soon (no matter how angry you get at me!).

If you find my posts frustratingly aggressive, rest assured that your passive-aggressive, above-it-all attitude is equally provocative to me.

I didn't say aggressive.

I am saddened that you find my attitude to be passive-aggressive or provocative. Passive I intend. Aggressive not so much. I will try to work on that.

It's hard for me to imagine why pushing for understanding and tolerance would be provocative to somebody but I admit, that's just my feelings about my own opinions.

I respect that it bothers you.

I can assure you I am not trying to irritate/annoy anybody.

I just don't want our community to devolve the way it was in the Bush era.

In going back to discussions from previous elections I came across things you said back then, and I was using that context as well. For example, while I don't think this time around you've explicitly made an argument against voting, you did use the same points to make that argument in the past, and say it doesn't matter who is elected (and one that the Electoral College just chooses a winner regardless of how people vote). So I'm at a loss on how I can have distorted your position.

People change. Opinions alter. Time moves on.

You say you don't want to repeat yourself, but the only thing I've actually asked of you is something I don't think I've ever seen in twelve years on this forum: A constructive explanation of how you would like the American political system to change, why you think the changes would make a meaningful difference, and a rationale for why, failing this, politics don't matter. For example, if you're going to argue, explicitly or implicitly, that George W. Bush and Barack H. Obama were "the same" as presidents, I'd like to hear what you think would be a good alternative, and what kind of political system might produce it.

Sure I have some ideas about how to "fix" the system but I really have no desire to go into that here.

I don't feel like my sentiment that our system is "broken" is invalidated simply because I am not putting forth my thoughts on a solution.

I consider myself a reasonably intelligent person but I'm willing to concede that while I feel I'm smart enough to know there is a problem; I don't feel qualified (smart enough) to solve it.

I own that.

I'm not a politician or an expert on constitutional law.

I might know I need to have my gallbladder removed, doesn't mean I know how to remove it. I'd leave that to a surgeon.
« Last Edit: 16 Nov 2016, 13:31 by Darth Mandarb »

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #190 on: 16 Nov 2016, 13:45 »

I'm not a politician or an expert on constitutional law.


Neither is Donald Trump :P

Darth Mandarb

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #191 on: 16 Nov 2016, 13:46 »
Neither is Donald Trump :P

You'll get no argument from me on that!

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #192 on: 16 Nov 2016, 17:39 »
Had she won, Clinton supporters would absolutely have had to accept that they supported the USA's appalling use of drones in Pakistan and elsewhere.

Would it be fair to say though that someone who voted for hillary for any reason at all, fully supports drone murder? That their intention is to kill syrians? That we should hate them for this?

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #193 on: 16 Nov 2016, 18:12 »
Would it be fair to say though that someone who voted for hillary for any reason at all, fully supports drone murder? That their intention is to kill syrians? That we should hate them for this?

Well, Trump was in favor of nuking them, so, if we're looking at doing the least harm, Hillary still comes out on top as the choice most likely to hurt the least Syrians,  based on their campaigns.

And yeah, it's shitty that there wasn't a viable third option (voting third party in the US election system is, as previously discussed, pointless), but Trump is pretty much more violent, xenophobic, corrupt, and bigoted than Hillary. There's pretty much nothing you can say about her that isn't on display much worse in Trump.

Jack

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #194 on: 16 Nov 2016, 18:25 »
That's not what I asked.

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #195 on: 16 Nov 2016, 18:55 »
That's not what I asked.

OK, but you can't ask stuff like that without the full context in which the thing was asked - directly comparing stuff like this to score points against people is really petty and disingenuous. I'd say the question itself was wrong, and asked in bad faith.

If, for instance, there was a viable alternative candidate who did not support drone strikes or attacks at all, yes, you would have to take voters for her to task on that issue, as there would have been a choice involved in that issue. However, that is not the situation voters found themselves in. The context in which the choice was made would have to have  been completely different for what you're driving at to be a valid point.

So no, it is not fair to say that voters for her hate Syrians, as they were not given a choice to not have a leader who was against it.

However. If they do not at least attempt to contact their representative to try to stop the drone strikes, then they are pretty much just letting it happen. The vote itself here isn't just what matters but the actions they take afterward as well.

In the same vein if someone voted for Trump, that's super bad, but that's not the whole story. If they voted for him and immediately campaigned to stop his bigotry, that's them holding themselves accountable and doing the least harm. Though in this case doing the least harm to minorities is voting for Hillary since she isn't actively campaigning to label and deport them. But hey, we can all make terrible mistakes and work to fix them later.

You can't boil down shit like this into easy gotchas. I've said repeatedly that I would not resent a Trump voter if they actually stood up and fought for the people that his administration was attacking. I'd hold a hillary voter just as accountable - they gotta fight back against drone strikes and stuff.

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #196 on: 16 Nov 2016, 19:09 »
They shouldn't "oust" hillary before she takes office?

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #197 on: 16 Nov 2016, 19:17 »
She didn't run on a platform of drone strikes, dude. She didn't even mention them as far as I know. They're a problem with every president we've had since drones were invented. They're something we have to campaign against no matter who's in office.

Trump is so fundamentally evil in pretty much every one of his policies, and openly campaigned for evil, that he is really unfit to be president. His appointing pretty much only bigots is only the start of all the awful almost irreversable things he could do that could hurt a lot of real people, and not hypothetical people like you're obsessed with.

Stop trying to do gotchas, you're really bad at them.

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #198 on: 16 Nov 2016, 19:38 »
No, this was one of the key pieces in her campaign.

That's large numbers of civilian casualties at least, and a likely war with russia at worst. That's not to mention all the other things stated already.

Trump is so fundamentally evil in pretty much every one of his policies, and openly campaigned for evil, that he is really unfit to be president.

A lot of people feel the same about hillary. Should they hate people who voted for her, because they haven't opposed things she hasn't done yet?

Darth Mandarb

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #199 on: 16 Nov 2016, 19:39 »
It's still her policy.

[Hillary] Clinton supports the use of targeted drone strikes, and says they were one of the most effective counter-terrorism strategies during her time in the Obama administration. [source]

"We will always maintain our right to use force against groups such as al-Qaeda that have attacked us and still threaten us with imminent attack,"
- Secretary of State Hillary Clinton

She even potentially admitted to war-crimes carried out by drone-strikes while she was in the Obama administration. [source]

Whether or not Trump has similar (or worse) policies dealing with the same subject you made it very clear that, no matter what your reasoning might be, if you voted for Trump you support bigotry/hatred.

Given that, I'd say it's fair to say that you support the continued use of drones to commit targeted killings if you support Clinton.

You have also said:
Quote
However. If they do not at least attempt to contact their representative to try to stop the drone strikes, then they are pretty much just letting it happen. The vote itself here isn't just what matters but the actions they take afterward as well.

So it almost sounds like you're saying it's possible to support a candidate while not simultaneously supporting all their policies?