mountain scene

[Monsieur OUXX]

Is there anything that shocks you in there, drawing-wise? When you look at it, is your eye drawn onto some unpleasant detail?

[imgzoom]http://68.media.tumblr.com/2069db18575d5ea1759bfb07ab412a8d/tumblr_okpot61idB1tsfksfo1_540.png[/imgzoom]

Since I know you guys and I know that there's always a rogue paintover happening at some stage, here's the PSD file (photoshop) : https://www.dropbox.com/s/giche63309kmcwe/02_agsforums.psd?dl=0

[Kumpel]

Each layer on itself looks good but the whole thing is just too much for me. Especially the background landscape really draws my attention way too much. Maybe bring the contrast down and the brightness up to give it a distant feeling and to connect it more to the fog layer in the middleground?
The Foreground looks also a bit boring. But that layer is not finished yet, right?

[Hazel]

The whole landscape looks nice but I agree with Kumpel.
It would be better if you make the mountains fade away in the distance, give the background some depth.

[cat]

For me it's the other way round - those rocks in the foreground, pointing to the left edge of the picture, draw all my attention. What is the main focus point of the image supposed to be? That golden structure? You could try to flip the left part of the foreground rocks to make them point towards that golden thing.

[Monsieur OUXX]

I accept the critics about the "main focus point" but that background will not be an ordinary background where the character walks around. It will be a credits screen where the character slides down on a sledge, starting from the rocks in the foreground, zigging and zagging left and right all the way down (while the sprite gets smaller and smaller). It will probbaly leave tracks in the snow. So unless someone has a brilliant idea, I will probably leave the set like this.

However regarding the contrast, yes, I can (must) boost the depth by playing with the contrast.

[Snarky]

Oh, that's a downhill slope away from the camera? Yeah, that's not at all apparent in the composition. Given the horizon, it seems a lot more like a flat, perhaps even slightly uphill surface.

[Danvzare]

Is there anything that shocks you in there, drawing-wise? When you look at it, is your eye drawn onto some unpleasant detail?

With the way you wrote that, you had me looking around for a hidden dick somewhere on the picture.

Oh, that's a downhill slope away from the camera? Yeah, that's not at all apparent in the composition. Given the horizon, it seems a lot more like a flat, perhaps even slightly uphill surface.

Agreed, I honestly thought it was just a flat landscape, not a downhill slope.

[Crimson Wizard]

As Snarky mentioned, it is not clear what angle I am looking at, given the horizon and what looks like mountain village (??) on the distance.

The strip of the sky stands out too much, and its too narrow, in my opinion. At first I realized I did not even notice there is one, it somehow completely fell out of my senses range.

[Monsieur OUXX]

it seems a lot more like a flat, perhaps even slightly uphill surface.

Damn.


OK here's an update that doesn't take that last input in account

[imgzoom]http://68.media.tumblr.com/c40b72c4d7b45177330243376c2d431a/tumblr_okqygfN2dm1tsfksfo1_540.png[/imgzoom]

[Mandle]

The new orange of the sky seems way too bright to me and looks like it was copy/pasted in without changing the lighting of the rest of the scene. You have also faded the mountains in the distance a bit to go for the misty effect but with the new bold sky colours this actually destroys the illusion of fading into the distance for me.

I feel the sky needs to be more washed out than the mountains... And probably just going for a very, very light blue would be good. The whole sunset look of the sky does not match the midday lighting I see in the rest of the scene for me. Snow is an amazingly reflective substance akin to a bicycle reflector and any slight change in the sky's lighting would be reflected on its surface greatly.

Also: I always got that the scene was a lookdown from a higher place, but the foreground rocks make me wonder if I was just lowered down into the scene on the hand of the Iron Giant...

[Kumpel]

In my third (or fourth) look at this I noticed the perspective of the bottle like structure. Just then (before you told us) it clicked, that I am suppose to look downward . But as the others said, the horizon is somehow not right. Maybe add some mountains that cut the orange sky"line" and extend the valley, which  atm looks like a small odd place, surrounded by dark structures (cliffs, woods, what?). Also increasing the sctructure on the right and/or somehow make it more like a thing to focus on, could help understanding the camera angle much better.

[Monsieur OUXX]

[imgzoom]https://68.media.tumblr.com/caea26782b6c09b135d17e57388b1ef2/tumblr_oksw6ifZK31tsfksfo1_540.gif[/imgzoom]


EDIT: Found it! I had simply forgotten to bend my horizon (that's just a prototype I'll draw it sharper)
[imgzoom]https://68.media.tumblr.com/5c8e3763a2f3a7c72c6db6b9317884f2/tumblr_oksz0qK0af1tsfksfo1_540.png[/imgzoom]

[Mandle]

Ooohhh...I love the animations on the Tibetan flag strings to call attention to the temple...but I feel they might be a bit over the top... The animations play up and down just a tad too much to look realistic to me... Maybe tone that down into a more compact waveform?

Also: The sky against the mountains still isn't convincing for me...Does it need to be an orange sunset sky as a vital part of the story? Does Indy need to arrive exactly at sunset?

If not then maybe go with a washed-out extremely light-blue sky to complete the illusion of the mountains fading off into the mist of the distance?

[Monsieur OUXX]

I feel they might be a bit over the top

Me too but I'm bad at animation..........
the link is here. (inside subfolder "stupa")
PS: I'm really happy that you managed to identify what it is. So far, all the people to whom I showed it couldn't tell what it is.

Also: The sky against the mountains still isn't convincing for me...Does it need to be an orange sunset sky as a vital part of the story?

It doesn't need to (even though it'd be more thrilling in a way), but GOD DAMMIT how hard can it be to successfully shade goddamn WHITE SNOW?
I shall look for more inspiration in references. Here and here and here

[cat]

I think it's much better now with the adjusted colors and the moved foreground rocks. Not much a fan of the curved horizon - do you really want to have a fish-eye look here?

Btw, what is this black joystick on the rock in the middle supposed to do?

[Monsieur OUXX]

Not much a fan of the curved horizon - do you really want to have a fish-eye look here?

Well I don't have to but that's what looks natural with this kind of top-down one-point perspective. Doesn' it?

Btw, what is this black joystick on the rock in the middle supposed to do?

It's the only lousy trick I found to enforce the perspective in the foreground It's a cairn.

[cat]

Hm, the slope doesn't look steep enough for this to work perspective-wise. It looks like it is somewhat hanging with a rather vertical edge at the end. I think it's the immediate transition between the slope and the clouds. I'd make the lower end of the slope a bit foggy already to indicate a smooth transition down. If the lower part is far away, also aerial perspective will start to show.

[Mandle]

but GOD DAMMIT how hard can it be to successfully shade goddamn WHITE SNOW?

That was one of my points from above:

If the sky if showing an orange sunset then the natural reflectiveness of the snow should also show the orange tones.

Snow reflects light amazingly, much like the reflector on a bicycle does. The ice crystals refract a huge percentage of the light back outwards.

So you could either put the orange tones into the snow or change the sky to a much more regular daytime look (I think the latter option would require much less work but might not be as dramatic)

Also: The horizon bend is working for me to create the downlooking perspective but like cat said it is just a tad too fish-eyed...Reduce the bend to a medium level between the original image and this latest one and it would look more convincing to my eye I feel...

[Snarky]

In order to have the camera angled down and still see the horizon, it needs to be a very wide-angle lens, so I think the fisheye effect is quite appropriate.

I do think the stupa suggests a steeper angle than is really feasible with the perspective, though. Also, I would add some rim highlights to the closer rocks, because if they are higher up they can't really be in shadow.

[Monsieur OUXX]

I would add some rim highlights to the closer rocks, because if they are higher up they can't really be in shadow.

unless they're in the shadows of some higher rocks
Seriously though I don't know what's a rim highlight. Off to google images!

[selmiak]

also we have some moving fog...
[imgzoom]http://i.imgur.com/TAlKZtk.gif[/imgzoom]

[Monsieur OUXX]

also we have some moving fog...

Yep. That's going to kick ass.



Now for the new iteration :

I think I included most critics. there's a significant enhancement since first version.

[NickyNyce]

Wow...that moving fog looks freaking awesome! Add a little more fog on the rest of the mountains near the top of the BG and I feel like I'm there.

I'm getting a much better sense of looking downward now. The new BG looks great.

[Mandle]

The new BG looks great.

It does look awesome! But why is this screenie so huge?! I can't view the whole thing without having to scroll so hard to say what the overall effect is.

[Monsieur OUXX]

why is this screenie so huge?!

Because despite the existence of the "imgzoom" tag, 50% of the people use an incompatible browser that makes the image appear blurry. And as a pixel art artist, I don't like blur. I don't trust you and I don't trust your browser. (this was meant as a joke but poorly phrased)

[Danvzare]

Because despite the existence of the "imgzoom" tag, 50% of the people use an incompatible browser that makes the image appear blurry. And as a pixel art artist, I don't like blur. I don't trust you and I don't trust your browser.

I know what you mean, but did you need to make it that big?
A simple 2x nearest neighbour stretch would be enough to see it in it's fully glory, without making it so big that everyone else can't see it at all.

Plus, when you stretch it by 2x nearest neighbour, the blur of the imgzoom is barely noticeable.

[Mandle]

I don't trust you and I don't trust your browser.

Okay, this comment begs a few obvious questions:

(1) Why then did you use "imgzoom" for every image up until this one?
(2) If you don't trust us then why are you asking us for our opinions?
(3) Or...did you mean that you just don't trust me in particular?
(4) Was this comment meant as a joke? Because it doesn't read that way to me. It reads like a slap in the face to the people (or maybe just me depending on the answer to question 4) who spent their time trying to help you when you asked for it. And if not a joke then:
(5) WTF dude?

[Monsieur OUXX]

Hey I thought the phrasing "I don't trust you and I don't trust your browser" (with a distrustful smiley) was brutal enough for you to understand that it was a joke. An "over the top" statement for someting as trivial as blur.  I apologize if that sentence made you confused and/or offended. Of course I trust all of you awesome people with your judgement, otherwise I wouldn't have included your suggestions along the way.

[cat]

Then please make it smaller so people with lower resolution (like me) still can see it and can compare it easily with the previous versions (which is also smaller).

[Monsieur OUXX]

aThere you go.
Unless there's a major flaw in this one, I'll keep it.

[imgzoom]https://68.media.tumblr.com/d26f24bf0cd6b0712c7facc7b38598a7/tumblr_okyva74Vur1tsfksfo1_1280.png[/imgzoom]

PS: I realized that one of the issues in sizing is that my image hosting website actually embeds the image's width in the file name - so when I copy&paste the url from the bad place, I get a random result. The site actually downsizes the image depending on the url. Please forgive me if this is still too big. I'm trying to figure out how the damn thing works. too fancy for its own good.

[[delete}]

Chilly and spectacular as always - a real Monsieur_OUXX backdrop. 

Will Indy have a fist fight with a Yeti here? Hopefully such wild mountain ape is drawing inspiration from my favorite BD Tintin in Tibet.

[cat]

Great work!

[Monsieur OUXX]

Will Indy have a fist fight with a Yeti here? Hopefully such wild mountain ape is drawing inspiration from my favorite BD Tintin in Tibet.

Hey you know what, just yesterday I was daydreaming about the Yeti discretely appearing in a corner and watching Indy slide away during the credits. That would be so fun but I won't do it for two reasons: that would break the suspension of disbelief, and that would confuse the player and distract him from the sense of closure that he's supposed to get from this scene.

[Mandle]

Hey I thought the phrasing "I don't trust you and I don't trust your browser" (with a distrustful smiley) was brutal enough for you to understand that it was a joke. An "over the top" statement for someting as trivial as blur.  I apologize if that sentence made you confused and/or offended. Of course I trust all of you awesome people with your judgement, otherwise I wouldn't have included your suggestions along the way.

Haha, okay now I feel all silly, but cheers for the explanation. Yeah, usually I would probably have gotten that it was all a hoax, but I guess last weekend I got rubbed the wrong way several times by people in RL concerning trust/reliability issues and so I had blinders on when I read your comment. I try not to let such things affect my online life but I guess this time I felt into such a trap.

No need for apologies mate, but gratefully accepted anyway!

[Matti]

The new version looks quite nice and is a GREAT improvement over the first one, good work!

Some parts seem unusually sharp and could need some AA imo:

PS: I'm really happy that you managed to identify what it is. So far, all the people to whom I showed it couldn't tell what it is.

I could identify it clearly too, and I think it looks quite nice.

[selmiak]

the ice on the bottom left looks cool (as ice is supposed to be), but what is that other dark blue area on the bottom right? I can't tell for sure if it's more ice (but not so nice as the ice on the left) or a shadow (but from what?)

[Monsieur OUXX]

@Matti thanks for pointing those out, I have actualy corrected them already (won't post the last version, too lazy).
@selmiak: I don't know. I can't shade. Leave me alone

Also this: http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=40184.msg636552850#msg636552850

[Kumpel]

I recognized (a) snowbank/s and I think it's very properly shaded! Your cairn is a good idea to help visualizing the perspective you are trying to achieve, but maybe you should make it more stand out to the left from the rock it's placed on. Atm it looks more like funny spots on the rock surface. And I still don't get the dark areas left and right from the village in the valley. This breaks the illusion for me. Or maybe I still don't get what I am looking at...

[Mandle]

I recognized (a) snowbank/s and I think it's very properly shaded!

+1

[Monsieur OUXX]

maybe you should make the cairn stand out more to the left from the rock it's placed on.

Well it was originally like that (watch previous verisons) but apparenlty it was too much.

I still don't get the dark areas left and right from the village in the valley.

What dark areas?

[Kumpel]

Maybe this helps you understanding my point.



I don't quiet get, what I am looking at. Is the centre the ground where some village is located? If yes, why is it surrounded by mountain sides and why are all these paths you've drawn leading to the peak in the upper middle? The way you designed this mountainside and how these geological plys of these mountains imho seem to be directed, I am thinking that I am looking into one ply, creating a typical streamlike valley. But instead you are showing me this triangle shaped area and the mountains(?) around it leading in the same direction instead of away from/into the valley (like a slope).

Or isn't this centre a valley but the end of that icey slide (like a ski jump landing area) you told us about? Then also the mountains left and right should point away.

And the cairn could be higher to help creating that illusion of a looking down perspective.

So here is what I would suggest (sorry for the over the top smearing):

[Snarky]

Kumpel, I'm pretty sure all those things you've marked "valley?" are actually mountain sides, and that the white thing in the center is just the snowy slope of a mountain. The lowest point in the image is then the bit that is covered up by clouds, further down that slope. I'm not sure whether there is actually a village on the slope or whether the dots are merely boulders or something. But it's probably a little unfortunate that it's so centered and symmetrically triangular, so it can be tempting to read it as continuing the perspective of the slope down. And why is it covered by snow to a lower altitude than any of the surrounding mountains? And doesn't that stream on the right jump from one peak to another?

What I would suggest to make the perspective clearer is to show a glimpse of the bottom of the valley, with some green of vegetation to make it clear that it is a lower altitude, perhaps a stream running along it. I think the lowest line of peaks on this side of the valley (i.e. right below the left area marked "valley?") could be removed, and instead offer a line of sight down to the bottom (if there's a gap in the clouds).

[Monsieur OUXX]

Kumpel, I'm pretty sure all those things you've marked "valley?" are actually mountain sides, and that the white thing in the center is just the snowy slope of a mountain. The lowest point in the image is then the bit that is covered up by clouds, further down that slope. I'm not sure whether there is actually a village on the slope or whether the dots are merely boulders or something. But it's probably a little unfortunate that it's so centered and symmetrically triangular, so it can be tempting to read it as continuing the perspective of the slope down. And why is it covered by snow to a lower altitude than any of the surrounding mountains? And doesn't that stream on the right jump from one peak to another?

What I would suggest to make the perspective clearer is to show a glimpse of the bottom of the valley, with some green of vegetation to make it clear that it is a lower altitude, perhaps a stream running along it. I think the lowest line of peaks on this side of the valley (i.e. right below the left area marked "valley?") could be removed, and instead offer a line of sight down to the bottom (if there's a gap in the clouds).

Snarky got it. the dark patches on the sides are dark, well... just because they're not snowy but instead grassy.
Yes, the triangle shape and symmery are infortunate. I'll see what I can do. Your suggestins might be an issue, snarky.

[Monsieur OUXX]

To thank you all for your help, here is something that I wanted to keep secret, but it's going to please all the Indy lovers who are impatiently waiting 

[imgzoom]https://68.media.tumblr.com/d59ddbbfcf816b506b395780d6336646/tumblr_ol2nmaULGi1tsfksfo1_540.gif[/imgzoom]

[Cassiebsg]

Who's looking at mountains when you got Indy in the picture?

Really love the snow trail... Though I has imagined he was going doooownnn....

[NickyNyce]

The snow trail looks great. I don't really have an issue with any of what I'm seeing. If I remember correctly, Monsieur OUXX mentioned this is the end of the game, or credits/ cut scene. I think we are reading way too much into this. Indy should be the center of attention. Nothing in nature is perfect. Nature creates all kinds of illusions, odd patterns. This is just a guess, but I have a feeling Indy might come back onto the screen and slide down a bit further.  

[Monsieur OUXX]

this is the end of the game

Nope
the end of the game will BLOW. YOUR. MIND. Guaranteed! 

[Mandle]

Love the sled trail in the snow also: One thing that I think could sell it even more is a 4-5 frame animated impact spray of snow where he first lands, ending in a bit more scattered snow chunks lying around that area, but not vital...