New demo game for AGS?

[Crimson Wizard]

This was brought to attention in the past year that current Demo Game, which is distributed with AGS, is very much outdated, incomplete, not much suitable as demo due its complexity, and also, frankly, not the best quality (like, graphics). I keep adding it to the installer following tradition, but seriously, do many people actually play it, or use it as an example for their first game?

With the good quality games being released regularly, and many members of the forum participating in competitions of various kinds, would anyone like to make a new demo game for AGS? or suggest an existing ones? (It obviously must be open-source game)

On the other hand, maybe we should just stop including demo game with AGS? I would actually like to stop using DemoGame regardless, because of the reasons I mentioned above. I fear it rather puzzles than helps.

For those that like an idea of creating a new game, I believe it should possess following qualities:

1) It should be suitable for showcasing, thus:

• Not too short/primitive, but not too long; players should be able to complete it in one go;
• No hard puzzles, this game is for show, not puzzling players;
• Good visuals and audio, does not matter if low-res though;
• Should include most notable features of AGS and adventure game;

2) It should be suitable to refer to as "good practice", thus:

• Well-written script;
• Using up-to-date script API (no obsolete commands);
• Thoroughly documented: comments in code, optionally a document with further explanation.

[Mandle]

There's a demo game?!

[Crimson Wizard]

There's a demo game?!

...it comes with literally every installer of AGS Editor.

We have it in the repository here:
https://github.com/adventuregamestudio/ags-demo-quest

But, as I said, it is not very good, IMO, and probably many users simply ignored its presence.

[Radiant]

I suggest that there is no great need for a demo game, because even years ago when it wasn't outdated yet and there weren't quite so many great AGS games, I don't recall anyone talking about using it. But anyway it is good to include some basic material with AGS. So how about picking one of the Oceanspirit Dennis games, at least one that is an adventure game (which most, I think, are not)? They are all open source and some have quite decent graphics, and they fit with the forum community.

[Crimson Wizard]

I was thinking about Draculator 2 maybe? The one that was created in swarm project.

[abstauber]

Good idea. But it is fully voiced, so as an included game it might be a bit heavy.
I also have an early unreleased Ben304 game on my disk, which nobody might ever heard about. We could take a chapter from it, in case Ben agrees

Does the demo game need to utilize the (dated) sierra GUI?

[Crimson Wizard]

Does the demo game need to utilize the (dated) sierra GUI?

There is no restriction on that account, except, I guess, it is preferred to have something simple and modern.

I have a negative personal opinion about sierra GUI, if that matters .

[Cassiebsg]

Well, I remember I tried the Demo when I got my first version of AGS, but must admit I didn't quite get it, never finished it (if it can be finished) as I never even open the door on the street.  More than using it to see how to code, I just used it to see "what it could do"... I then moved to the video tutorials and manual, and never looked at the demo again. 
Think that more than just a demo, that it maybe could be more interesting as a demo/tutorial kind of game, and serve as a place to complement the manual... Maybe making the "game" playable as small chapters that can be selected at start, with sort of a window "This chapter includes how to use...x, y and z features"....

Let's say that each chapter was a room, and each member could write contribute that way with a small piece of code/room. (Or maybe I'm just complicating..  )

Speaking of Sierra... is there a reason the "Sierra template" is called "default"? I feel this tends to any first timer starting their game with the "default" template, not because that's what they want to use, but just because "it's the default, and I have no idea what the others are" type of thought.

[Crimson Wizard]

Speaking of Sierra... is there a reason the "Sierra template" is called "default"? I feel this tends to any first timer starting their game with the "default" template, not because that's what they want to use, but just because "it's the default, and I have no idea what the others are" type of thought.

As far as I know, Sierra was default, because first versions of AGS could have only Sierra interface. This is also why there are Sierra cursor modes built into game.

Since we are at this, it may be an opportunity to substitute Sierra template with simplier default template (two click module maybe?), and rename old Default to "Sierra Classic" template, or something like that.

[Cassiebsg]

Oh, well, my point was we should not call any template "default"... 
Just "Sierra Classic", "LucasArts classic/9verb", "Two clicks", "One click", "Blank"... something most ppl can relate to and make their 2nd most important decision about their game, which interface they want to use. 

[CaesarCub]

I think it would be neat to have a demo game or even several tutorial like ones to help newcomers.

My free time varies a lot, but I would be up to helping with it (specially UI stuff, icons, cursors, inventory, fonts...).

Oh, well, my point was we should not call any template "default"... 
Just "Sierra Classic", "LucasArts classic/9verb", "Two clicks", "One click", "Blank"... something most ppl can relate to and make their 2nd most important decision about their game, which interface they want to use. 

I like this idea 

[dactylopus]

I like the idea of having a Demo Game as well, though I agree that the current Demo is outdated to the point of near uselessness.  I did use it when starting out, mostly looking over the scripts to learn how to use different commands.  It was good to see them in context rather than simply reading about them in a Wiki article.

It would be interesting to see a Demo Game that included "How To" tutorial sections.  I think it would also be good if that game went through the different templates to show the variety of control possibilities, but I agree that there should be no "Default" template.  Breaking it down into several small lessons or tutorials could work, but I feel it could become cumbersome if not linked together in a single framing game.

Then again, simply using an existing game could work as well, if only because it gives interested parties a good example.  In that sense, I wouldn't call it a Demo Game as much as I would call it an Example Game (and hopefully any such game could be well documented to facilitate this).

I believe that a solid Demo, Example, or Tutorial Game could help the beginner to become more acclimated and comfortable in the AGS environment.

[Babar]

The reason that we would not hear many would not talk about the demo game is because those who play through it and run it would be new people who probably wouldn't talk about it much anyhow.

Rather than finding an existing game to include as a demo game, it might be a good idea to have it created from scratch. Maybe as a MAGS?
I'd say an important part of the demo game would be tutorialness or explanation of how stuff is done WITHIN the game itself (even though, yes, you can't copy-paste text from within the game), which precludes already existing games.

[Radiant]

Maybe as a MAGS?

Actually I rather like that idea.

[cat]

No matter what game it is going to be, the code should be of excellent quality, following some basic coding guidelines and having proper indentation.

Maybe we should do another SWARM project, this time focusing on showing AGS features?

[dactylopus]

Maybe we should do another SWARM project, this time focusing on showing AGS features?

Not a bad idea at all.  Perhaps a focus on things that should be taught through tutorials in each submission would help.  Just need someone to spearhead and organize it.

[Snarky]

I like the idea of having a Demo Game as well, though I agree that the current Demo is outdated to the point of near uselessness.  I did use it when starting out, mostly looking over the scripts to learn how to use different commands.  It was good to see them in context rather than simply reading about them in a Wiki article.

It would be interesting to see a Demo Game that included "How To" tutorial sections.  I think it would also be good if that game went through the different templates to show the variety of control possibilities, but I agree that there should be no "Default" template.  Breaking it down into several small lessons or tutorials could work, but I feel it could become cumbersome if not linked together in a single framing game.

The drawback to this is that if you make the Demo Game as extensive as that (particularly with different control modes), the code becomes quite big/complex, and it will be difficult for newbies to grasp how it all fits together under the hood. So for the more advanced features, as well as for the different control modes, I think it's better to have standalone demos.

I would also suggest linking the demo game to the tutorial in the manual, so that by completing the tutorial, users will have created e.g. the first couple of rooms of the demo game.

[dactylopus]

The drawback to this is that if you make the Demo Game as extensive as that (particularly with different control modes), the code becomes quite big/complex, and it will be difficult for newbies to grasp how it all fits together under the hood. So for the more advanced features, as well as for the different control modes, I think it's better to have standalone demos.

Fair enough.  I can see how this is true.  But I still think that the framing mechanism could help.  Could they be standalone, but connected through a base framing game?  Or should there be multiple standalone demos?

[Crimson Wizard]

My suggestion is still about a small, simple demo game distributed along with the AGS Editor, which purpose is not to tutor, but to showcase basic capabilities.
Also, in my opinion, it is better to have an actual playable game, which user may enjoy playing, rather than a fourth-wall breaking game which describes AGS features in tutorial manner.

Of course, nothing prevents anyone to create tutorial or other demo games separately from that.
If people are up to this, I guess you could even do a set of tutorials with the game sources, and publish them on the website.

The reason I am insisting on a simple demo is that then the installer won't have anything too excessive in it. Meanwhile a small but well-made game would be enough to create user's interest in game creation, and rise their confidence that they can do something good with AGS.
After they played it, they may go to website again and download other tutorial games.

Another reason is a more pragmatic one: simple game is easier to maintain. The package maintainer will have to be responsible for the quality of all the included games. If you put too much, that will become a chore.

[abstauber]

Also, in my opinion, it is better to have an actual playable game, rather than a fourth-wall breaking game which describes AGS features in tutorial manner.

How about an "official open source showcase shelf" for which people could apply? Instead of hiding these games in the forums, they should appear as an additional download below the 'main' AGS download.
We would just need to setup a few rules, like comments and very basic coding guidelines.

[dactylopus]

My suggestion is still about a small, simple demo game distributed along with the AGS Editor, which purpose is not to tutor, but to showcase basic capabilities.
Also, in my opinion, it is better to have an actual playable game, which user may enjoy playing, rather than a fourth-wall breaking game which describes AGS features in tutorial manner.

Of course, nothing prevents anyone to create tutorial or other demo games separately from that.
If people are up to this, I guess you could even do a set of tutorials with the game sources, and publish them on the website.

The reason I am insisting on a simple demo is that then the installer won't have anything too excessive in it. Meanwhile a small but well-made game would be enough to create user's interest in game creation, and rise their confidence that they can do something good with AGS.
After they played it, they may go to website again and download other tutorial games.

Another reason is a more pragmatic one: simple game is easier to maintain. The package maintainer will have to be responsible for the quality of all the included games. If you put too much, that will become a chore.

I hadn't thought of it from that perspective, and I think you're right.  A short "Example" game might be better than extensive tutorial games for a variety of reasons.

[Radiant]

Yeah, KISS principle definitely applies here. As tempting as it is to overwhelm new users, that just can't be the goal

[Danvzare]

I have a negative personal opinion about sierra GUI, if that matters .

Same here. But considering the Sierra GUI is currently the "default" GUI with a bunch of hardcoded functions to support it, it only makes sense to use it for the demo game.
If that changes though, then obviously there will be a long debate as to which interface would be best suited for the job.

I hadn't thought of it from that perspective, and I think you're right.  A short "Example" game might be better than extensive tutorial games for a variety of reasons.

I remember after going through the tutorials, I learnt most of the basics of AGS from a one room example in an old SCUMM interface template (not related to the current one we all use).
Back then I had no idea the demo game existed. And when I finally did learn about the demo game, I already knew a lot. It still taught me a few things though.

I definitely agree that the demo game is outdated. And personally, I think it needs to be replaced with something smaller and simpler.
It doesn't need a framing device saying that in this room you will learn how to use inventory items or whatever, at least not ingame.
But in the name of the rooms, and the comments of the code, it could be clearly apparent what each room is teaching you. While ingame, it could just seem like a playable short simple game.

What I'm trying to say is. In the game, have it appear to be a normal game. In the editor though, make is obvious that it's a tutorial using the game as a framing device. This might make some rooms seem rather bare or simple ingame, but it should still be playable.
At least that's my two cents on the subject.

[Crimson Wizard]

I have a negative personal opinion about sierra GUI, if that matters .

Same here. But considering the Sierra GUI is currently the "default" GUI with a bunch of hardcoded functions to support it, it only makes sense to use it for the demo game.

But that's precisely the reason why I don't think it has to be in the game: that will emphasize that you are not limited to these ancient sierra-style controls.
I actually wonder how many newcomers have used Sierra interface in their first games only because it was in Default template.

[Darth Mandarb]

This is actually something I have given a lot of thought to over the years...

What I eventually settled on (and I think it's what Abstauber was meaning?) was that the AGS download contains only AGS and no demo games.

Then we have, in the same download section as the engine, multiple demo games to showcase different aspects of AGS but are VERY targeted to that aspect. One for the sierra type interface, one for Lucasarts style, etc. I was thinking they'd be organized is a community decided "curriculum" if you will. So it would be like... the order you should learn AGS programming. Start with the first demo and work your way through to the last to get a solid grasp of the fundamentals of AGS!

The demo game(s) should be useful to learn, without being overwhelming. Like Snarky (and others) said if we have one demo game that tries to cram EVERY aspect in there it would be overly complicated and hard to learn from. Multiple short and small packages that showcase 1-3 aspects would much more useful in my opinion.

Then maybe there's one final, larger, demo game that sort of ties everything you've learned into one game.

I was also thinking, if somebody were willing, would be to create an AGS official YouTube channel. It'd be really great to tie each of the demo games into a youTube video (where the demo game referenced in that video is linked to in the description) and we put some ads on the account and generate some revenue for AGS (could be used to pay some of the fine folks doing the good work on the engine, server bills, etc).

Just my $0.02 (€0.02)

[cat]

@Darth

I think this is an excellent idea. The games could even use a common resource pack (RON? OSD?) so people can really focus on the programming.

[Darth Mandarb]

The games could even use a common resource pack (RON? OSD?) so people can really focus on the programming.

I had the exact same thought! Each of the "demos" is actually set in the same game/world.

One of my original ideas was each demo (if done in order) would then actually build a larger game as you go through them (each adding on to the previous) so by the end you've combined all the demos into one large/completed game. This would require a tremendous commitment on several developer's parts to implement properly though.

Another idea I batted around was the the demos could actually incorporate teaching into the demos (not just in looking at the code which, of course, you could still do) but breaking the 4th wall where the character in the game would say something like, "okay... if you wanted to script me to do XYZ how would that work?" and then a code dialog box pops up and you could actually enter code (sort of like a very interactive quiz/test to teach scripting, etc).  This, again, would require a large effort to make work properly.

[selmiak]

Another idea I batted around was the the demos could actually incorporate teaching into the demos (not just in looking at the code which, of course, you could still do) but breaking the 4th wall where the character in the game would say something like, "okay... if you wanted to script me to do XYZ how would that work?" and then a code dialog box pops up and you could actually enter code (sort of like a very interactive quiz/test to teach scripting, etc).  This, again, would require a large effort to make work properly.

This is a really cool idea and should do wonders when it works, but getting it to work is hard work.



this thread made me think of this:
http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=54703.0
(new thread to not distract discussion in this theead, but please read!)

[Hobo]

My suggestion is still about a small, simple demo game distributed along with the AGS Editor, which purpose is not to tutor, but to showcase basic capabilities.

I like the idea of a flagship title for the AGS engine, something that would showcase the fact that you can use AGS to create quality games with modern(ish) features and game design principles. I guess it would probably work best as a high(er)-res game and if it would look something like The Journey of Iesir, it would be amazing. Also, I think we should go all out with the release of such a demo, make an official announcement, contact some gaming websites, youtubers etc. Let people know!

These comprehensive tutorial games and learning demos are probably pretty hard to pull off, but these could be the next things on the list if some feels like they're up to the challenge.

I don't know much about scripting, so I can't really with that, but I can lend a hand if anyone needs some help with pixel art, writing or game design.

[Alan v.Drake]

Forgive me for partially hijacking this thread, but since AGS source code is undergoing some significant changes, we could really use a feature demo game.

Might have one feature each room so it would help both us with testing, and AGS users by providing a reliable reference on how to use all the features.

God knows how it would have helped me back when I was learning AGS. It would help even know, I never remember how half the stuff is supposed to be used.

Since we're pretty busy enough with the source, it would be nice if the community could rise up and help compose this testing behemot. Many people could pick up a feature and prepare the room, which will later be compiled into one big demo game.

This is moderately urgent, if you want to discuss come to AGS discord. Thanks.


- Alan

[CaesarCub]

Forgive me for partially hijacking this thread, but since AGS source code is undergoing some significant changes, we could really use a feature demo game.
Might have one feature each room so it would help both us with testing, and AGS users by providing a reliable reference on how to use all the features.

I think this is good, because it gives us a direction for the demo.
It would be good to have a list of the features that need to be tested.

I mean, we can always do later a more story-driven new-user friendly demo, but starting with focusing on the stuff that is needed for further engine development seems like a good idea, and something that the team working on the engine actually needs.