New demo game for AGS?

Started by Crimson Wizard, Wed 12/04/2017 15:18:53

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Crimson Wizard

This was brought to attention in the past year that current Demo Game, which is distributed with AGS, is very much outdated, incomplete, not much suitable as demo due its complexity, and also, frankly, not the best quality (like, graphics). I keep adding it to the installer following tradition, but seriously, do many people actually play it, or use it as an example for their first game?

With the good quality games being released regularly, and many members of the forum participating in competitions of various kinds, would anyone like to make a new demo game for AGS? or suggest an existing ones? (It obviously must be open-source game)

On the other hand, maybe we should just stop including demo game with AGS? I would actually like to stop using DemoGame regardless, because of the reasons I mentioned above. I fear it rather puzzles than helps.

For those that like an idea of creating a new game, I believe it should possess following qualities:

1) It should be suitable for showcasing, thus:

  • Not too short/primitive, but not too long; players should be able to complete it in one go;
  • No hard puzzles, this game is for show, not puzzling players;
  • Good visuals and audio, does not matter if low-res though;
  • Should include most notable features of AGS and adventure game;

2) It should be suitable to refer to as "good practice", thus:

  • Well-written script;
  • Using up-to-date script API (no obsolete commands);
  • Thoroughly documented: comments in code, optionally a document with further explanation.

Mandle


Crimson Wizard

#2
Quote from: Mandle on Wed 12/04/2017 15:21:32
There's a demo game?!
...it comes with literally every installer of AGS Editor.

We have it in the repository here:
https://github.com/adventuregamestudio/ags-demo-quest

But, as I said, it is not very good, IMO, and probably many users simply ignored its presence.

Radiant

I suggest that there is no great need for a demo game, because even years ago when it wasn't outdated yet and there weren't quite so many great AGS games, I don't recall anyone talking about using it. But anyway it is good to include some basic material with AGS. So how about picking one of the Oceanspirit Dennis games, at least one that is an adventure game (which most, I think, are not)? They are all open source and some have quite decent graphics, and they fit with the forum community.

Crimson Wizard

I was thinking about Draculator 2 maybe? The one that was created in swarm project.

abstauber

Good idea. But it is fully voiced, so as an included game it might be a bit heavy.
I also have an early unreleased Ben304 game on my disk, which nobody might ever heard about. We could take a chapter from it, in case Ben agrees

Does the demo game need to utilize the (dated) sierra GUI?


Crimson Wizard

Quote from: abstauber on Wed 12/04/2017 21:52:29
Does the demo game need to utilize the (dated) sierra GUI?

There is no restriction on that account, except, I guess, it is preferred to have something simple and modern.

I have a negative personal opinion about sierra GUI, if that matters :).

Cassiebsg

Well, I remember I tried the Demo when I got my first version of AGS, but must admit I didn't quite get it, never finished it (if it can be finished) as I never even open the door on the street.  (roll) More than using it to see how to code, I just used it to see "what it could do"... I then moved to the video tutorials and manual, and never looked at the demo again.  (roll)
Think that more than just a demo, that it maybe could be more interesting as a demo/tutorial kind of game, and serve as a place to complement the manual... Maybe making the "game" playable as small chapters that can be selected at start, with sort of a window "This chapter includes how to use...x, y and z features"....

Let's say that each chapter was a room, and each member could write contribute that way with a small piece of code/room. (Or maybe I'm just complicating..  (roll) )

Speaking of Sierra... is there a reason the "Sierra template" is called "default"? I feel this tends to any first timer starting their game with the "default" template, not because that's what they want to use, but just because "it's the default, and I have no idea what the others are" type of thought.
There are those who believe that life here began out there...

Crimson Wizard

Quote from: Cassiebsg on Wed 12/04/2017 23:14:22
Speaking of Sierra... is there a reason the "Sierra template" is called "default"? I feel this tends to any first timer starting their game with the "default" template, not because that's what they want to use, but just because "it's the default, and I have no idea what the others are" type of thought.

As far as I know, Sierra was default, because first versions of AGS could have only Sierra interface. This is also why there are Sierra cursor modes built into game.

Since we are at this, it may be an opportunity to substitute Sierra template with simplier default template (two click module maybe?), and rename old Default to "Sierra Classic" template, or something like that.

Cassiebsg

Oh, well, my point was we should not call any template "default"...  ;)
Just "Sierra Classic", "LucasArts classic/9verb", "Two clicks", "One click", "Blank"... something most ppl can relate to and make their 2nd most important decision about their game, which interface they want to use.  (nod)
There are those who believe that life here began out there...

CaesarCub

I think it would be neat to have a demo game or even several tutorial like ones to help newcomers.

My free time varies a lot, but I would be up to helping with it (specially UI stuff, icons, cursors, inventory, fonts...).

Quote from: Cassiebsg on Wed 12/04/2017 23:24:23
Oh, well, my point was we should not call any template "default"...  ;)
Just "Sierra Classic", "LucasArts classic/9verb", "Two clicks", "One click", "Blank"... something most ppl can relate to and make their 2nd most important decision about their game, which interface they want to use.  (nod)

I like this idea  ;-D

dactylopus

I like the idea of having a Demo Game as well, though I agree that the current Demo is outdated to the point of near uselessness.  I did use it when starting out, mostly looking over the scripts to learn how to use different commands.  It was good to see them in context rather than simply reading about them in a Wiki article.

It would be interesting to see a Demo Game that included "How To" tutorial sections.  I think it would also be good if that game went through the different templates to show the variety of control possibilities, but I agree that there should be no "Default" template.  Breaking it down into several small lessons or tutorials could work, but I feel it could become cumbersome if not linked together in a single framing game.

Then again, simply using an existing game could work as well, if only because it gives interested parties a good example.  In that sense, I wouldn't call it a Demo Game as much as I would call it an Example Game (and hopefully any such game could be well documented to facilitate this).

I believe that a solid Demo, Example, or Tutorial Game could help the beginner to become more acclimated and comfortable in the AGS environment.

Babar

The reason that we would not hear many would not talk about the demo game is because those who play through it and run it would be new people who probably wouldn't talk about it much anyhow.

Rather than finding an existing game to include as a demo game, it might be a good idea to have it created from scratch. Maybe as a MAGS? :D
I'd say an important part of the demo game would be tutorialness or explanation of how stuff is done WITHIN the game itself (even though, yes, you can't copy-paste text from within the game), which precludes already existing games.
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Radiant


cat

No matter what game it is going to be, the code should be of excellent quality, following some basic coding guidelines and having proper indentation.

Maybe we should do another SWARM project, this time focusing on showing AGS features?

dactylopus

Quote from: cat on Thu 13/04/2017 08:12:09
Maybe we should do another SWARM project, this time focusing on showing AGS features?

Not a bad idea at all.  Perhaps a focus on things that should be taught through tutorials in each submission would help.  Just need someone to spearhead and organize it.

Snarky

Quote from: dactylopus on Thu 13/04/2017 03:17:34
I like the idea of having a Demo Game as well, though I agree that the current Demo is outdated to the point of near uselessness.  I did use it when starting out, mostly looking over the scripts to learn how to use different commands.  It was good to see them in context rather than simply reading about them in a Wiki article.

It would be interesting to see a Demo Game that included "How To" tutorial sections.  I think it would also be good if that game went through the different templates to show the variety of control possibilities, but I agree that there should be no "Default" template.  Breaking it down into several small lessons or tutorials could work, but I feel it could become cumbersome if not linked together in a single framing game.

The drawback to this is that if you make the Demo Game as extensive as that (particularly with different control modes), the code becomes quite big/complex, and it will be difficult for newbies to grasp how it all fits together under the hood. So for the more advanced features, as well as for the different control modes, I think it's better to have standalone demos.

I would also suggest linking the demo game to the tutorial in the manual, so that by completing the tutorial, users will have created e.g. the first couple of rooms of the demo game.

dactylopus

Quote from: Snarky on Thu 13/04/2017 08:33:17
The drawback to this is that if you make the Demo Game as extensive as that (particularly with different control modes), the code becomes quite big/complex, and it will be difficult for newbies to grasp how it all fits together under the hood. So for the more advanced features, as well as for the different control modes, I think it's better to have standalone demos.

Fair enough.  I can see how this is true.  But I still think that the framing mechanism could help.  Could they be standalone, but connected through a base framing game?  Or should there be multiple standalone demos?

Crimson Wizard

#18
My suggestion is still about a small, simple demo game distributed along with the AGS Editor, which purpose is not to tutor, but to showcase basic capabilities.
Also, in my opinion, it is better to have an actual playable game, which user may enjoy playing, rather than a fourth-wall breaking game which describes AGS features in tutorial manner.

Of course, nothing prevents anyone to create tutorial or other demo games separately from that.
If people are up to this, I guess you could even do a set of tutorials with the game sources, and publish them on the website.

The reason I am insisting on a simple demo is that then the installer won't have anything too excessive in it. Meanwhile a small but well-made game would be enough to create user's interest in game creation, and rise their confidence that they can do something good with AGS.
After they played it, they may go to website again and download other tutorial games.

Another reason is a more pragmatic one: simple game is easier to maintain. The package maintainer will have to be responsible for the quality of all the included games. If you put too much, that will become a chore.

abstauber

QuoteAlso, in my opinion, it is better to have an actual playable game, rather than a fourth-wall breaking game which describes AGS features in tutorial manner.

How about an "official open source showcase shelf" for which people could apply? Instead of hiding these games in the forums, they should appear as an additional download below the 'main' AGS download.
We would just need to setup a few rules, like comments and very basic coding guidelines.

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