MAGS Discussion - How to get more participation

[MAGS Host]

Apologies if this is in the wrong place as it's not in itself a competition thread. I envisage it being stickied at the top of the board but if mods think it belongs in gen-gen, that's fine.

Basically. MAGS needs more participants. I know everyone's busy, myself included but I'm getting increasingly disheartened by the lack of entries.

However, instead of blaming people for having lives outside AGS I want to think of ways we can increase levels of participation, in the form of suggestions and advice.

Here are a few ideas. Feel free to discuss these and add some ideas of your own:

More teams - If you have an idea but think you'll be busy, make a team. Team games are always welcome and the games borne from teams and parnerships are always really good. The thread itself is a great place to offer and ask for help. Also try IRC, Discord, Twitter. Some folks who don't often check the thread might be willing to partner up if you approach them outside the forum.

More general themes - I used to say this in the PMs I sent to winners about choosing a topic. More simple themes/topics almost always produce more participation and more finished games. Clever concepts with extra rules always look great on paper and always garner a lot of early interest, but these are also the ones which ultimately produce fewer entries.

Go small. No. Smaller than that. No no. Like you've only got 30 days. The number of MAGS games which don't see the light of day because they were too ambitious is quite shocking. I try to be lenient with extensions but I can't always honor them and to be frank, if you're still making the first draft of your game on the last day, you're doing it wrong. Give yourself a pre-deadline, like a week before the main one. Spend the last few days making sure the game is bug free and pretty.

Let's MMAGSGA (make MAGS great again)

[Gurok]

Hmmm... I'm thinking if we can't raise paricipation levels for every month, perhaps raising them for a single month would be a good start. Could we hype up December or January (months close to holidays) as "MAGS-a-palooza" or "MAGS-stock"? Get people to pre-register and publicise it months in advance.

It's a bit radical, but what if we only judged games once a year (Maggies)? A bit like the IF Comp, but still with monthly deadlines. It would give every game a chance to compete against a reasonably-sized pool of games. TBH, I'm not a big fan as this doesn't really grow MAGS but manages its decline.

You could enforce shortness via the theme. One Room, One Week could be applied to MAGS as a rule for a few months -- one room, one month.

Prizes are good, but nobody wants to fund MAGS prizes, obviously. Maybe we could award a gold star in someone's username area each time they win a MAGS. Of course, if some generous patron wants to donate prize money, that would work too.

[Slasher]

I totally agree that the lack of MAG entrants is concerning if we are to keep it going.

Some people are either too busy at the time, can't think of a game for the topic, think their games are not any good, try to get above their heads and realise they don't have the knowledge to do the game and so back down.

MAGS and the suchlike is all about having fun...  It's like: 'Let's see what I can make in a month'.....

We of course have our regulars which helps,

Naturally, people with good scripting skills who have the ability to produce quick results helps, whist people with not much experience struggle to get anything done..

Some people can't even make a game in a year that alone a month.... These people need help and reassurance...

Of course it would be good if old hands offered help to newbies and offered a hand with advice etc etc if they needed it or work as a team...

A game-making workshop would be great....a place to hone their skills and learn from experienced people...

I will naturally try to help get more participants.

I will mention this in Slashers Corner...

Let's save MAG

and Stu

[selmiak]

people are busy, themes are interesting to gamemakers or not. participation happens or not. Last june or july was great and had a lot of great games come out of mags, maybe this summer mags is back at its glorious height. I wanted to join but all the themes this year just didn't catch me, sorry theme makers.

Also update the december mags link in the IRC greeting message. Announcing the current mags theme in a forum banner sure gets some attention to it, still if the theme is not interesting or people are just busy you will get only that many entries.

[WHAM]

I think that people (including myself) crash and burn with their MAGS projects simply because of greed. We want to make great games, we want to make the best we can, and when the 30 day deadline comes crashing down on you, it can get disheartening. Organizing a team to work on a game can be even more work than working solo on something smaller, so I don't really see teaming up as a solid solution here, either.
There isn't really anything concrete that can be done, apart from promoting MAGS more so people are aware of it, and making it clear that the games are not expected to be of top-notch quality or have ten hours of story and gameplay to them. If you can get people to grasp that a small, crude and not-entirely-finished project is a perfectly okay thing to release for MAGS, it might help people be more willing to experiment and put in the effort.

Personally I've looked at participating several times over the past couple years. A couple times I've been put off by the theme (I find themes that are too open to put me off, and personally prefer more restrictive rulesets), other times I have started something and then seen the project die due to simply not having the time and energy to put together a functioning game, which has been exasperated by a personal tendency towards feature creep in development.

I love MAGS, though, as it has helped me focus on some small projects that have taught me a ton about game development, scheduling and planning withing the scope of a project / deadline, so I'd love to see the competition go on and shine in the future. I just hope I can find a way to be a part of that, myself.

-W

[jwalt]

A passing thought that allowing RoN assets in any Monthly Mags competition might increase participation, as well as make more folks aware of the RoN assets. I've always thought/felt that, unless it was specifically a RoN anniversary game, using RoN assets violated the MAGS rules.

[Danvzare]

The reason why I've only participated in one MAGS so far, is because it's a month long commitment.
You need to mentally prepare yourself ahead of time, that you will be working on this game almost every day for a month. And then you either wait for a theme that you like, or just choose a month and try your best to work within whatever theme gets chosen for that month.

Not only that, but a lot of people can take a month coming up with the design of a game, but with a MAGS, you've got one day to design the majority of the game, with changes needing to be made as you make the game.

It's fun participating in MAGS, but it can be stressful.

Unfortunately, everything I just wrote is just about my experiences, and has nothing to do with improving MAGS participation. I honestly don't know how to improve participation, other than trying to enforce it as a teaching tool for newbies, and trying to get people from outside the AGS community to participate. Neither of which I think is possible.

More teams - If you have an idea but think you'll be busy, make a team. Team games are always welcome and the games borne from teams and parnerships are always really good. The thread itself is a great place to offer and ask for help. Also try IRC, Discord, Twitter. Some folks who don't often check the thread might be willing to partner up if you approach them outside the forum.

Maybe I should try participating in a MAGS again, but try and form a team. How easy is it to do that?

[VampireWombat]

I know from my own experience when trying to make games for MAGs which didn't get finished, part of the issue was just trying to figure out an art style and getting graphics done.
What if there were some MAGS starter packs? They could include templates for rooms, sprites, and a simple GUI.

[Slasher]

Danvzare:

Time management is the key along with enthusiasum, weather it be MAGS or other.

With MAG, as you say time is shorter...

Myself: I generally 'See' a good idea or two where I know what I want to do within minutes...

Then write the basics down.... that's about 20 minutes...

So far all within a day...

Then make/gather most of the assets.... usually within a day or two.

Start piecing them together as per notes made..

This usually takes from 3 to 5 days...

Start scripting my ideas and adding the elements, which may change a little over time...

This may take me up to 12 days allowing for extras stuff to include.

Then another day or so doing the gui's and more scripting.

By the time i get to day 15 i am generally running tests and tweaking.

This could take up until the end of the month, depending.

I find a month more than enough time....if you only do one or two rooms i'd say within two weeks.

A month is generally long enough though I have found it a bit tight on some instances.

Not saying my games would win awards but they are complete and playable.

All the more reasons for people to get down and dirty and start creating.

Long live MAG

From VampireWombat:

What if there were some MAGS starter packs?

That is a possibility, it would certainly cut the time down..

[Retro Wolf]

Permanently extend the deadline by another month/2 weeks? More time for people who have little, emphasis that the game doesn't have to be longer/better because of the extra time.

I'm pretty sure RotN assets are allowed to be used every month, perhaps we could create some more all in one graphics packs with different art styles that people can use. EDIT: (VampireWombat got there before me!)

[DarkWater]

To be honest the one sided rules have kept me from competing in MAGS. According to the rules…

• You are not allowed to use any material created before the competition. Your game must be completely new! An exception is music and sound; you can use any audio that is freely available to the public.
• Any modules and templates featured in this board are also allowed.

So one can use any audio/music freely available on the web, plus any modules/templates here on the forum for coding, but is forced to create graphics from scratch. I can understand not being allowed to enter a game you've already been working on that happens to be close to the theme, but having to make all the character animations and backgrounds can be a bit daunting for a lot of people.

This also sounds like RotN assets normally aren't allowed in MAGS. The only acceptation was the RotN anniversary contest that I entered last year. Were there other themes that caught my attention, which I would have liked to have joined in on? Definitely, if I had the option to use RotN assets or even those graphics available freely on sites like OpenGameArt.

As far as the time constraints, one month seems like plenty of time to draft a simple story plot, peppered with a few clever mini-games.

As far as promoting MAGS goes, mayhaps creating an AGS specific jam on GameJolt to get it out to the general public who may not have even heard of AGS yet?

[cat]

For me, it is a time issue. At the moment, it can be even difficult to find time to write forum posts or do moderation stuff (the awards also required lots of time). I hope one day I can enter MAGS again, but I doubt this will be soon.

I agree with others about the assets. Maybe it would be a good idea to allow existing graphics and animations just like music and sound. I would not restrict it to RON but allow any material that is publicly available. This means you cannot use stuff you made before and had lying on your disk, so everyone has the same conditions for making a game.

[Funkpanzer]

This may seem like a petty suggestion but, as votes are no longer visible, I think it would be a nice courtesy from future voters to hold back on saying who they voted for, especially including a justification for why another game was a better choice. Giving and receiving critique is essential in MAGS but there is a bit of a propensity to compare and reinforce the obvious.

No shade to anyone from March's thread, I have definitely done this in the past, just wanted to share in case others have felt this way.

Regarding opening up graphic assets - saying one can't use things they've made in the past but something from an asset library is fine? If you're going to change the rule it shouldn't have exceptions. Personally I don't think this rule should change.

[HandsFree]

I usually read the mags-threads but never join for the simple reason that I can't make a game on my own. So for me, teaming up could help.
But in my view the initiative for projects, mags and non-mags, lies with the artists. Requests from scripters or designers for artists never lead anywhere that I can see. Requests from artists for scripting or music are instantly succesful however; that's my impression at least.

Another reason for fear of joining is indeed the fact that so many mags-projects don't get finished. I have spent some time on games that never got released. That is not really encouraging...
Maybe a longer period (2 months?) could help increasing the chance a project gets finished?

[Slasher]

HandsFree

You could keep a game small (maybe 4 or less rooms) and concentrate on quality of puzzles and game play.

It would surely make hitting the deadline easier.

[Cassiebsg]

I love MAGS and wish I had more free time to join more often, however it's hard to make a game in a month. Stuff happens and sometimes you end up having less time than you thought or you just can't get passed writers block, or you end up taking more than you can chew.

I do think the forbids of the use existing previous material might keep a lot of ppl out it. It's very time consuming to create new assets every single month. One of reason I choose to go 3D (besides that fact that I love it and don't have the patience to do proper pixel art) is cause I can re-use the characters and items... just for MAGS.
For instance this month topic would have been a great month to alow to use art from your previous game. After all we're not really judging how artistic the game was, but how much fun we had playing each entry.

I would suggest to allow "previously created art and any & all publicly available assets"... even if only as a test for a month or two. To see if that would help some ppl that are better coders and game designers out of their shell and incentive more games. Or at least the "any publicly available asset"... With a clause that one had to give credit and link to the page(s) where the assets come from...

But that's just be. I like creating my own art as it's fun and keeps me busy... even if it results in unfinished games. I don't think I would like MAGS to be come a 2 month long thing though. Just the thought of "having" to dedicate that much to a game would be daunting (I mean a game I'm not long term committed to do, that is). I like the deadlines, as it gives me a finish line, focus and dedication to use as much free time possible.

[Stupot]

I'm definitley up for relaxing the rules on 'original content only' (although I do think it should be encouraged). Allowing RON assets is a good idea.

We can definitely have a look at some of the rules and perhaps do a poll on some policy changes. That said, I think a lot can be done in terms of raising awareness and motivation. I'd love to also get more people to just play the games and vote. That in turn should encourage people to make more games.

Thanks for all the ideas so far. I want to leave the discussion open a while. Lots of food for thought.

[Mandle]

I think a lot can be done in terms of raising awareness and motivation. I'd love to also get more people to just play the games and vote. That in turn should encourage people to make more games.

Very true. It is sometimes a bit disheartening to put so much effort into a game and then see a final poll where only 10 or so people voted, and 2-3 of those are people who have entered games.

I currently don't visit or belong to any other game dev sites but perhaps people who do could spread the word a little outside the AGS community...

Also, perhaps the banner announcement at the top of the forums could be used briefly to remind people about MAGS voting at the beginning of each month, with a clickable link to the list of games?

[tzachs]

I also think that any public domain asset should be allowed, though not sure how I feel about previously created assets (unless you make it public domain) -> and all assets should get the same treatment whether it's graphics, sound or code.

Now, for a little more radical idea, and I'm not even sure if I'm for it, but I thought it might be worth bringing it up for a discussion: what do people feel about allowing other game engines to participate?
It will bring more participants which equal more cool games, and might lure outsiders to join the community, and maybe try AGS one day.
On the downside, there's a sense of homey feeling here that's hard to describe, and it would be shame to see it disappear.

[Gilbert]

Yeah. I think it's time to allow usage of pre-existing graphics, especially since we have the RON library and Eric's photos ready for grab (I know a number of people already used his music tracks, but the images probably not as popular, which is a pity, if we let these lovingly captured photos get to waste. As long as you properly credit the author you may just alter the images in any way you want, such as tracing over them or using some filters.

[cat]

This may seem like a petty suggestion but, as votes are no longer visible, I think it would be a nice courtesy from future voters to hold back on saying who they voted for, especially including a justification for why another game was a better choice. Giving and receiving critique is essential in MAGS but there is a bit of a propensity to compare and reinforce the obvious.

Oh really? When I participated in MAGS I was very eager to know what people thought about my (and other) games and why or why not they voted for it. Of course, it might be good to only state which game you have voted for when the results are revealed to avoid influencing other voters.

[Danvzare]

Here's an idea, what if we promote making MAGS games open source, so that future MAGS games can use assets from previous MAGS games?
Or is that a terrible idea?

[TheBitPriest]

On the one hand, MAGS has some issues:

• The allotted time can be a problem (only one month)
• Timing can be a problem (being ready to start at the beginning of the month)
• The challenge of creating all assets from scratch can be tough if you lack skill in either backgrounds or animation.

On the other hand, these issues have some benefits:

• The need to do a game in a month requires the developer to narrow the focus.
• The start times are very predicable.
• Gathering assets outside of your skill set fosters teamwork.
• Requiring original assets results in original games.

But still... a few ideas to pick from... I wouldn't imagine implementing all four of those changes.  Just continuing the discussion...

• Add categories to the voting system, instead of finding one winner (best original art, best animation, best game, etc.)


• Allow RON or other freely available assets, but categorize the game as such (best gameplay, best original art, and so forth), or let the "market" decide (if it's the best game ever made with Sam and Max since Sam and Max, then fine, otherwise mega-down-vote for making another Sam and Max game).
• Announce the topic one month earlier allowing one month for design and one month for implementation.   
  OR...
• Allow all of the winners between the months of X and Y - 1 to plan the 11 game topics from Y + 1 to X' for the next year.  Announce all of the topics in month Y, giving people the freedom to pick a month that they want to join and plan for it (take a week off, gather a team, sketch a few thumbnails, practice a new skill ... but no actual game code or assets). With this idea we should keep the "all original" restriction.
  

[CaptainD]

Here's an idea, what if we promote making MAGS games open source, so that future MAGS games can use assets from previous MAGS games?
Or is that a terrible idea?

I think highlighting the option of doing this would be a good idea.

• Add categories to the voting system, instead of finding one winner (best original art, best animation, best game, etc.)


• Allow RON or other freely available assets, but categorize the game as such (best gameplay, best original art, and so forth), or let the "market" decide (if it's the best game ever made with Sam and Max since Sam and Max, then fine, otherwise mega-down-vote for making another Sam and Max game).
• Announce the topic one month earlier allowing one month for design and one month for implementation.   
  OR...
• Allow all of the winners between the months of X and Y - 1 to plan the 11 game topics from Y + 1 to X' for the next year.  Announce all of the topics in month Y, giving people the freedom to pick a month that they want to join and plan for it (take a week off, gather a team, sketch a few thumbnails, practice a new skill ... but no actual game code or assets). With this idea we should keep the "all original" restriction.
  

I definitely add my vote to the allowing RON assets to be used.  OR as an alternative to that, perhaps make every 3rd month a RON themed game (wich existing RON assets available to use in those months)?  Would be nice to see more RON games being made.  Would have to be rather loose on new games sticking to the existing canon though.

I think announcing more than one month in advance could be a good idea, allowing people to pick and choose which ones they want to enter and maybe even planning some holiday around it.  It could however lead to allegations of people using far more than the single month to actually make the game.  (Not that the prestige of winning a MAGS would really be enough to make people want to cheat surely?!?)


For myself I would actually like to propose a rather more radical option - and I know most aren't going to like it.  (Apologies in advance if someone has already suggested this, I haven't read every post.)  But hear me out.

What if MAGS morphed into not a game in a month, but a game in 2 (or even 3) months?  I know it goes against the original idea of MAGS but it would be so much easier for people to find enough time to make something (especially if, as previously suggested by several people, RON / public domain assets can be used - perhaps also InstaGame - is that still a thing?).  Anyway I expect most people not not like this idea, but I thought I'd put it out there anyway.

[Mandle]

What if MAGS morphed into not a game in a month, but a game in 2 (or even 3) months?  I know it goes against the original idea of MAGS but it would be so much easier for people to find enough time to make something

I suspect this may result in little or no change to the current volume of games being finished for a few main reasons:

* It could make procrastination a more attractive option. When I've been really passionate about getting a MAGS entry finished in time I have spent pretty much every available free moment on it. I have turned down outings with my wife (I have even asked her to go out for the day and financed it when I needed deep concentration) and bailed on nights out with mates. If I knew I had 2-3 months then I probably wouldn't do so and my total number of work-hours on the game wouldn't increase by much.

* It gives a longer time to grow disinterested in your own game. Even over the space of a month it seems many starters grow bored of their original game concept and drop out. We've all read comments like "I haven't found the urge to work on it for the last two weeks so I doubt I'll finish it."

* People would probably start off with a 2-3 times grander scope for their game and still run up against the problem of having bitten off more than they could chew.

* Overall interest in MAGS within the community may wane even more with a 2 to 3 month gap between each batch of new games coming out. It's a long time between payoffs for the community members who like to suddenly get a batch of new games all at once to play, consider, and vote on.

Just my two-cents of course.

[Hobo]

If you want to reach new people and raise awereness, you need marketing. Starting with getting MAGS on the front page of AGS and updating its own homepage (no updates in 2018). Create social media accounts or maybe make a deal with some youtube/twitch channels and gaming blogs for coverage. Also, tie-ins with other game jams. For example, AdventureJam 2018 is coming in May and all AGS participants should consider double dipping. All this takes lots of time and effort of course, which you probably don't have, unless someone wants to share hosting responsibilites.

I agree with the general notion that the biggest issue is time, but I'm a bit hesitant about increasing the monthly time restriction. Most game jams are shorter, some only few days or hours, and many still manage to attract a decent amount of participants and produce quality games (though it should be noted that very few jams take place 12 times a year and nonstop). But my point is that good games can be made in very short time (look at Slasher, for example) and even the most simple projects can eventually lead to something bigger or spark an interest in AGS. So, yes, I agree with go small. Also, good points from Mandle. I'd probably leave this as a last resort when other options fail to draw in more people.

However, I do like the idea of allowing more pre-made assets. This could mean simple, but functional templates for different point-and-click interfaces, text games, visual novels etc., so that people could easily quick start their projects. I know that everything in the Modules & Plugins sections is allowed, but I would appreciate a good organized list of those and some probably need fixing and updating. How up to date is this place? I'm also all in for allowing RON assets, Eric's resources and stuff from released MAGS games (optional for creators). I guess we could start from creating a library of assets and see where it goes. Or if people want all public domain and free stuff to be available, then I feel that there should still be some rules, like providing the links to the assets beforehand or maybe a time limit. For example, it has to have been free for at least a year before the competition starts, so that people wouldn't simply create resources and then release those or some of their old stuff right before a suitable jam.

This is a good initiative, I'm excited to see where it leads and hopefully it will breathe some new life into MAGS.

[Stupot]

I pretty much agree with everything Mandle (and hobo) just said about why increasing the time limit won't make any difference to the number of participants, and could even have a detrimental effect.

Also, I personally don't like the idea of setting the topics too far in advance. I really think the solution is to just have much more general themes like 'house' or 'winter' rather than elaborate concepts.

Instead of changing the structure of the contest to give people more thinking time, I think it would help if we changed our own approach a month-long game-making contest. The month should include thinking time and tweaking time. The actual game-making time is sandwiched somewhere in between. So plan as if you only have 20 days to make the game, then any extra time can be spent making it pretty.

Allowing RON assets is definitely an option. I'd be wary about marrying RON and MAGS too closely together though. The RON universe is quite intimidating for newbies and even oldbies. Some might be put off making a game if it was expected to slot into the RON-verse.

(After hobo posted)

Starting with getting MAGS on the front page of AGS and updating its own homepage (no updates in 2018).

The website has been broken a little while and I can't update stuff. I don't have the whatjamacallit to go fixing code myself. Only host access. But I'll see if Peder can have a fiddle around and get it working again.

(On a side note, Peder and I have talked about how the MAGS site needs updating. It would be nice to have a dedicated MAGS portal as part of this website rather than a seperate one. That way a lot of stuff could be automated using our regular forum accounts. I'm not really the man to go about that but it would be something to think about.)

[Baron]

From personal experience, waning MAGS participation is a life-stage thing.  People at the bottom of the totem pole at work or with really young kids just don't have the spare hours to participate in a time intensive competition like MAGS.  If it was socially acceptable to submit joke games that you could throw together in several hours I might be tempted, but I always thought that was frowned upon.

I like TheBitPriest's idea of voting in categories, as it shares the glory a bit.  We switched to category voting down in the Fortnightly Writing Competition years ago and I find it much more rewarding as a writer to get more detailed feedback than just a win-lose vote.  I don't know if it is incentive for more participation, though.  The number of participants entering since the change is roughly on par with before hand.  Anecdotally, there's definitely more participation in the FWC when the rules imply that a short entry is socially acceptable....

[Slasher]

Baron,

People at the bottom of the totem pole at work just don't have the spare hours to participate in a time intensive competition like MAGS

So, the high flyers have time then?

Anecdotally, there's definitely more participation in the FWC when the rules imply that a short entry is socially acceptable....

Size is not everything but quality is, so I am told

If we reset all the boundaries I think it would take away the edge of the whole purpose of Mag... after all, you could not very well ask the sporting committee to shorten the 100m hurdles race to 80m or take away the hurdles just to suit yourself....but you could train more, get better running shoes and learn the track better etc etc

It's a competition, simple as that.... and it's to show us what you can do...

What's more, any game does not need to be long and complicated:  as long as it's playable and fun

Anyone could win, anyone

[CaptainD]

Okay so the arguments against making it longer by Mandle are good ones, and Hobo's point about marketing is very valid.  Perhaps it only feels like "if I'd had more time I would have been able to do it" when this is not really the case.  "Marketing" in this sense is clearly something for mainly within the AGS community and therefore the forum, though social media also has its uses there.  I think the thing about other game jams is that they although shorter they tend to be extremely focused, have quite good (or better) social media exposure and are often annual events.  MAGS is a kind of hybrid game jam - in principle it's the same idea but by virtue of being every single month, it's hard to get the same level of enthusiasm and motivation to finish a new project for it every time (unless you're Slasher! )

It seems that a certain level of consensus has been reached about allowing some pre-made graphics.  I think that would be rather helpful, especially to artistically challenged people like myself!

I also like TheBitPriest's idea of category voting, which is in line with how voting works for both the writing and art competitions on the forum.

[Mandle]

It seems that a certain level of consensus has been reached about allowing some pre-made graphics.  I think that would be rather helpful, especially to artistically challenged people like myself!

I'd also shuffle in red-faced and sideways at this point and mention that I myself (and Slasher) have been using graphics garnered from google for many a MAGS and nobody has said anything as far as I know...

I feel that adapting a pre-made graphic to a game is an art in itself. It saves on the drawing time for sure but it also offers its own challenges: You must find the exact thing you need, then you must adapt it to fit within the game so that it is playable, and also you will probably be doing some work on it in GIMP to put it through some further changes etc.

And plugging the ripped art into your game can be done well or badly or anywhere in between depending on your skill at doing so.

You could have a bunch of clashing graphics in completely different styles dragging the player out of the experience or you could polish them to the point where they all fit, which takes time and effort.

At the end of the day the voters will take into consideration if the ripped art worked for them within the total experience of the game.

[Hobo]

Some might be put off making a game if it was expected to slot into the RON-verse.

This probably shouldn't be a requirement or expectation, most RON assets are fairly simple and generic, which means they can be easily repurposed or modified to suit your needs and create new content. Also, I don't think RON is defined or limited by any visual style or the current collection of free assets. You can use whatever graphics you want to make a RON game, these standard sprites and backgrounds are simply there to make creating games easier and faster. So what if your main character looks like Mika Huy? That sprite alone doesn't really define what Mika is and there have already been multiple different looks and versions for her in various games. Or maybe we could launch alternative universes or timelines of RON that run parallel to the main one and allow complete freedom and all manner of changes.

[HanaIndiana]

First off, thank you for starting this thread!
+1 for not extending it to 2-3 months, for reasons already stated.
+1 to marketing better on the forums.
I can go either way with category voting.
+1 for using pre-made graphics.

Personally I would participate more if I didn't have to create MAGS art from scratch. It eats up all of my time, and I don't particularly enjoy it.
Having RON assets available would be great, but does that mean you have to make a RON game? I don't know the universe, and I wouldn't want newbies to feel like they couldn't participate either for that reason.

[Creamy]

I pretty much agree with everything Mandle (and hobo) just said about why increasing the time limit won't make any difference to the number of participants, and could even have a detrimental effect.

Me too.
I'm not so adamant about the frequency of the competitions though. One MAGS competition every 2 months could be enough.

The challenge of creating all assets from scratch can be tough if you lack skill in either backgrounds or animation.

I also find it hard to make a consistent game with satisfying visuals on my own in one month. It promotes teamwork but can deter some people from entering.

Allow RON or other freely available assets

+1
Would it be possible to allow the use of assets produced during other contests too? Background Blitz, Sprite contest...

[Tycho Magnetic Anomaly]

Hi folks,


I also noted some time ago that MAGS had suffered a bit of a slow down in terms of participants for each months contest. I remember posting a few suggestions in some or other MAGS thread about this last year. My suggestion was simply to have MAGS run every 2 months however at the time I think people frowned upon the idea somewhat for various reasons of which I can understand.

However much as a radical change it is, I would like to mention it again since I just spotted this thread now and thought to give my thoughts on it.

I think there are a number of benefits to running the MAGS every other month, on the surface of the suggestion you might automatically think well, its only 6 mags a year compared to 12 and how could that possibly result in more participants per year?



Well here is the theory, shaky as it may be


1. I honestly feel that you might find more people enter who have already entered into a previous contest because there is a chance that directly after a MAGS participants will be tired, perhaps stressed, lost a bit of enthusiasm, in particular since its a jam we are talking about after all so there is that all hands on deck, full steam ahead activity which in my opinion takes time to recharge when its all over with.
Getting people to enter into another MAGS directly after is a lot to ask especially if they have worked to the bone on any previous contest. Said person/teams might be more likely to enter after a good few weeks have passed.

2. Having the MAGS run every two months gives the opportunity to add an extra week (or perhaps more) onto the time period so development can run over 5 weeks rather then 4. this extra week can come out of the month that a MAGS isn't being run.


3. Running every two months also gives the opportunity to add an extra week (or more) to the period where people get to play the games then vote, which may lead to more people getting time to play more games and squeezing out as many votes as possible with a slightly longer voting time.


4. Running it every 2 months with extra time added on may also result in better quality of games with more time for individuals or teams to polish out last Min bugs. (an extra week or more makes all the difference with contests like theses)


5. MAGS every 2 months give more time to promote the next mags before the theme is actually announced. Any extra time to get the word around is a good thing and will catch more peoples attention.


6. MAGS every 2 months might give people that regularly enter into the MAGS more time in between each MAGS to enter into one of the other smaller contests the forum runs, so this suggestion might end up benefiting participant numbers with smaller contests too.


I think at worst running this every 2 months could result in the same number of over all yearly participants as current projections are (based on the slow down).... at best you might end up getting more bumper MAGS (such as the one last June (i think?) where many people entered... So basically getting on average 8 people or so to enter every 2 months might end up being better then having 12 individual months of MAGS where only 1 or 2 or 3 enter.
OK now the "8" is wild guess, and I will admit doing this every 2 months idea might indeed make things worse, but I think if promoted right it could work.

And the only other bad aspect to this that I can see (apart from the potential to make the bad situation worse) is you would have to call the contest something else.

So in short I think you may end up getting more activity and also more people playing the entries and more people voting.

Oh also come MAGGIES people I feel might be more likely to play 6 games rather then 12 to make a fairer determination on who to vote for which may mean you might get more people voting on the whole in MAGGIES.






Asides from the suggestion to run it every 2 months here are some other thoughts.


I am not so sure about the suggestion some are making about making it OK to use assets previously made, which for me sort of defeats one of the main challenges for a game JAM. I think Jams in general are ideal for people to think outside the box and improvise and innovate with limited time or ability. However my thoughts on this might be somewhat biased in the sense my main thing is Graphics so I do have to also recognize that other participants might not have the same experience with Graphics so struggle to produce a certain quality in a certain amount of time, but I think every or individual has advantages and disadvantage compared to other participants and the great thing about game JAMS is the resulting variety of styles, ideas, mechanics.. etc that all ultimately pivot around the challenge of working around limitations / strengths and weaknesses that each participant has, and I think letting people use pre-made assets is diminishing the challenge and perhaps fun of the whole experience. But sure someone's fun is another's hell and vise versa so I dunno, there is my thoughts on it anyhoo.


This might sound a bit spammy, but have you thought of setting up a script on the forum to PM or Email every user on the forum with periodic announcements of which anyone can opt out of receiving. This is one way MAGS could be brought to the attention of people who have otherwise got their eyes off the forum and might have actually liked to try entering if they had known about it.
I think a certain MAGS theme might instantly appeal to a potential participant if they just knew about it before hand. A few mentioned about having a forum banner change to reflect up-coming MAGS this is a good idea. Anything to promote within the community is a good think because thinking about promoting MAGS outside of the community is going to be tough for a variety of reasons.

Perhaps rather then automatically offer the next theme suggestion to the winner of each MAGS, have the winner, + 2nd and 3rd place participants suggest theme, and have the community vote on the next theme via a forum poll this will raise the chance that more people will enter into next MAGS because its a theme they actually think they can work with.

Offer trophies or some sort of mark of achievement to winners or and perhaps runner-ups, the same way other contests do. OK sure there is a limited space in the signature area, but still a little badge, or icon, something for participants to aspire to. Perhaps like little star icons in the area to the side of the forum post.. er not sure what that area is called, the area where people's name/avatar are, just under there. I dunno... anyhoo .. I know its such a minor profile cosmetic, but well you know what the net is like, people like to collect achievements and show them off, and rightly so, with the work put in on each project.

Might I suggest an actual Prize for the outright winner of MAGGIES, now this is a bit of a wild suggestion because who is going to fund a prize and then why are no prizes offered for other categories during the AGS Awards, but I just though to mention this anyway, even if its just a small price like oh I dunno a book token or perhaps even a AGS T-shirt.. something.. you know.. something other then the win to aspire to might end up tempting more folks to enter.

There are a bunch of other ideas that could be done to help Mags and some have already suggested some sound ideas here also, I just hope things start to pick up eventually and I wish it the very best of luck.

I myself am striving to try enter into a MAGS this year at some point so you can hopefully count me in for at least one MAGS.

[cat]

From what I read in this thread, I suggest the following changes:

• All previously existing assets are allowed...
• ...if they were publicly available before the MAGS topic was announced
• The voting is done in three categories
  
  • Best interpretation of the theme
  • Best original assets (graphics, music, animation,...)
  • Most enjoyable game

I personally don't like RON assets, because with all their story and canon I find it rather intimidating (even if it is not required that you follow it).

[TheBitPriest]

Many good ideas...

What if we did something like this: Intentionally vague, broad topics on even months and specific gameplay/story challenges on odd months.

Broad topics would restricted to newly created art assets, while gameplay/story challenges would allow preexisting backgrounds and animations.

For example, in December the theme may be "Any game about winter or holiday," while in January it would be "A game with multiple player characters that have different strengths who work together to solve a mystery."

If you tend to like stories or interesting gameplay challenges, you know that every other month, MAGS is your place to shine.  If you prefer more freedom in game design, but like to paint and animate, you know when to set aside some time for a MAGS.

So, it would still be *M*AGS (occurring monthly), people would be able to anticipate the scope of the project based on the month, and game makers with different strengths would know when to participate.

For some people, it would be an every-other-month event. Others may still like to participate in them all.

Plus, we could try it then reevaluate... It doesn't really change the contest very much.

What do you think?

[Stupot]

@TheBitPriest - I like your thinking. Saying that, if we were going to have a mix of broad themes and specific challenges, why don't we let the topic setter be the one to decide each week whether or not (or how strictly) to have a ‘original art only' rule?

[Mandle]

@TheBitPriest - I like your thinking. Saying that, if we were going to have a mix of broad themes and specific challenges, why don't we let the topic setter be the one to decide each week month whether or not (or how strictly) to have a ‘original art only' rule?

I know you're still new at this MAGS gig, Stu. It's all good.

[Privateer Puddin']

MAGS where you make one game a month but the topic changes each week?

[Stupot]

I was quarter of the way to being right :-/

[Danvzare]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like everyone is an agreement with allowing the use of RON assets. So maybe we should include a link to them on every MAGS thread.
Also, Maniac Mansion Mania is basically a German version of RON, with a set of characters that most people on this forum know about, which in turn could maybe make it a more appealing option (I know that I'm usually turned off from using any RON assets because I don't know the characters or locations, regardless of how many people say that it's ok). So maybe include a link to the MMM resources as well.

What if we did something like this: Intentionally vague, broad topics on even months and specific gameplay/story challenges on odd months.

I like that idea. It will give you a bit of a heads up before hand, whether or not you should be preparing yourself for a month of game making.

Also, I think that MAGS should stay at once a month. If you increase it I'll think we'll end up getting the rebound effect, which is basically that the more we increase the amount of time available, the more lazy everyone will become (and the larger their scope will be). Think of it like studying for your exam one day before the exam, regardless of how much time you had to study, or leaving your lights on more because you now have an energy efficient light bulb.

[VampireWombat]

With all the talk of RoN and the additional mention of Maniac Mansion Mania, I have an idea.
What if we started something similar specifically for MAGS? Each month those who participate could choose to have their assets added.
I'm thinking maybe 2 or 3 series could be started. Modern, scifi, and maybe fantasy or such.
Or divide each series into different graphics style.
Maybe one month could be specifically for starting each series.

[Blondbraid]

Now, these are just my personal reasons and may not apply to others, but the two main reasons I don't participate in MAGS as much as I'd want to are:

1. Too often the topics feel a bit too specific, and if I manage to come up with something, it usually so late into the month that there's no time left to make anything resembling a worthwhile game. More broad and general topics that can be interpreted in different ways would make it easier to come up with a fun game concept.

2. The rule about not being allowed to use pre-existing graphical assets. For me, that's probably what takes me the longest to finish when I work on a game, and reusing GUI elements and inventory sprites of generic items would save me a lot of time. It also feels pretty limiting to not be able to re-use character sprites, since I have toyed with the idea of revisiting or expanding upon characters I made for previous MAGS entries, but I just don't have the energy to redo every single sprite for a character I've already worked on, not because I have any good ideas on how to improve the sprites, but just because of a rule in a competition.

I understand the reasoning behind this rule, but I don't think it's necessary. While it could give members who already made games and sprites an advantage over those who hasn't, there's always RON assets or they can ask other members for permission to use their sprites and backgrounds. Now, while there is a possibility that some might try to make entries made entirely out of re-used assets, I still think most will only use it for the things they don't have time to draw and animate before the deadline and still try to make as much original content as possible. The alternative doesn't necessarily mean that all contestants will make good original graphics, I've seen several entries where they ended up using ugly placeholders due to time constraints.

[DBoyWheeler]

Also, my own two bits on this topic...

For those who do enter, if you're needing help in some aspects, don't be shy to team up with someone, or ask for some teammates.

The person might not be planning a MAGS entry himself/herself, but he/she might be willing to contribute in some ways (like maybe a few backgrounds, or even a music track or two.  Even if it might be a bit of proofreading or testing the game, don't be afraid to ask for help).

[selmiak]

reusing GUI elements and inventory sprites of generic items would save me a lot of time.

somebody please use this:
https://github.com/caesarcub/AGS-SCI-Template

maybe we can add some generic inv items to the template, like rope, lighter, flashlight without batteries, gun, flamethrower...

[Danvzare]

maybe we can add some generic inv items to the template, like rope, lighter, flashlight without batteries, gun, flamethrower...

tin opener, bucket, pole, hook, pole with hook. You know, the items that appear on almost every adventure game. I think I actually compiled a list of about fifty items which appear in multiple games... for some reason.

[TheBitPriest]

@TheBitPriest - I like your thinking. Saying that, if we were going to have a mix of broad themes and specific challenges, why don't we let the topic setter be the one to decide each week whether or not (or how strictly) to have a ‘original art only' rule?

I think that could work. However, the reason I suggested alternating between broad themes and specific challenges was:

1. Participants could anticipate the scope of the contest ("June is here in a week... I can expect a broad theme. I'm in!")
2. The contest wouldn't be weighted too heavily in one direction or the other.

[Slasher]

1. Participants could anticipate the scope of the contest ("June is here in a week... I can expect a broad theme. I'm in!")
2. The contest wouldn't be weighted too heavily in one direction or the other.

Spoiler

As it's my topic for May I will be going for a broader topic with scope to interpret as you so wish with no asset use restrictions.

[close]

I have several topics for May in which I am deciding which one to pick...

[tsa]

Maybe it's just me, but I think maybe the invisibility of the MAGS competitions on the web and on this site in particular is one of the reasons it's not attended well. I can't find a MAGS thread or MAGS pages on this site, and the 'official' MAGS website http://www.mags-competition.info/?page=current seems to not have been updated since January 2018. Why not make some easily visible links on the home page of the AGS website and udate the 'official' MAGS site?

[Kastchey]

On the subject of theme choice... Not sure if it will help anyone or not but here's a brief summary of themes and turnout for the last 30 competitions:

Spoiler

* Mar 18 | make three playable characters and differentiate the gameplay between them | 2 entries
* Feb 18 | pick genre, setting and location from predefined lists and include a pet with an extraordinary gift | 4 entries
* Jan 18 | hidden and misinterpreted true motives | 3 entries
* Dec 17 | invisibility | 1 entry
* Nov 17 | contest/competition | 4 entries
* Oct 17 | fears/phobia, + 1 room requirement | 5 entries
* Sept 17 | past and future mixed up | 3 entries
* Aug 17 | the Bible | 3 entries
* Jul 17 | same place frequented by character 3 times as key element of the plot | 3 entries
* Jun 17 | rescue | 8 entries
* May 17 | fate | 2 entries
* Apr 17 | misinterpretation/mistaken identity | 1 entry
* Mar 17 | difference in size | 2 entries
* Feb 17 | same location at multiple time periods | 2 entries
* Jan 17 | transformation/metamorphosis | 3 entries
* Dec 16 | pickpocketing | 2 entries
* Nov 16 | afterlife | 3 entries
* Oct 16 | remake an existing game into a different genre | 2 entries
* Sept 16 | pure evil | 5 entries
* Aug 16 | must include monkeys, poor quality vehicle, giant banana | 5 entries
* July 16 | extinction | 4 entries
* Jun 16 | non-cliche historical setting + real personnas (optional) | 3 entries
* May 16 | must include gas, "It's all right now" quote, someone named Jack + Jack jumps and toothless bearded hag (optional) | 4 entries
* Apr 16 | natural disaster | 2 entries
* Mar 16 | changing seasons | 1 entry
* Feb 16 | RoN | 2 entries
* Jan 16 | Black Death | 6 entries
* Dec 15 | depleted/running out | 3 entries
* Nov 15 | monsters + must include rhyming | 6 entries
* Sept 15 | Stephen King, must include 2 rooms and 2 characters exactly | 2 entries

[close]

What I feel the most popular themes have in common is that they are flexible and not too ambitious, in a good way. Basically, when I think say "monsters" or "contest" or "rescue", a bunch of simple short game scenarios immediately springs to mind and whilst none of these games would probably be very original or imaginative, they could be quickly and effortlessly planned out. Coming up with a working MAGS game plan shouldn't really take any of the precious little time we have to actually create the game.

Also, not all themes that scored 4+ entries are vaguely defined - some in fact use detailed requirements, see the monkey theme from Aug 16 or Jack theme from May 16 for example. Personally I'm not a big fan of these "include x, y, z and your game must be f" subjects because (admittedly more as a player than a creator - I rarely participate) I feel the competition is more captivating when the entries are themed rather than connected by randomly chosen elements. But it does seem to stir creativity if the combination turns out to be flexible enough.

As for the use of pre-existing open source graphical assets, it feels like something that could improve the turnout but I'm not convinced if using RON resources for this purpose is a very good idea unless the MAGS entry is an actual RON game. It is a free to use library, but a library dedicated to a specific series so using it for random MAGS games *kind of* defeats the purpose to me. But then again I'm hardly an expert on RON policy, someone better versed in the subject might want to comment should this option ever be seriously considered.

[jwalt]

As for the use of pre-existing open source graphical assets, it feels like something that could improve the turnout but I'm not convinced if using RON resources for this purpose is a very good idea unless the MAGS entry is an actual RON game. It is a free to use library, but a library dedicated to a specific series so using it for random MAGS games *kind of* defeats the purpose to me. But then again I'm hardly an expert on RON policy, someone better versed in the subject might want to comment should this option ever be seriously considered.

I'm not a RoN expert, either, but at some point in time, before the establishment of a RoN Canon, folks began offering up characters and backgrounds for public use. I can't help but feel those folks would be sad that the canon was preventing the assets from being used to tell any story, be it one for the RoNiverse, or one for the more general worlds of MAGS. If the MAGS entry doesn't lend itself to a Zombie Mayor, or Death and an Alien building sandcastles, they can be left out. It may be up to the denizen lurkers within the RoNiverse to decide whether it's a RoN game, or not. Just don't kill off any existing character, unless you made it.  And even then, someone may just resurrect him, or her, or it.

[Cassiebsg]

Well, the way I see it, even if they are RON assets, they are free for use. So nothing to stop one from making a game with them and just adding a note "Not a RON game" or "This is a parallel universe to the RON universe" or something. That way you can do whatever you want with the characters and don't need any previous knowledge of them or the universe they live in.

[Kitty Trouble]

I agree that public domain assets should be allowed for use.

[Slasher]

I had a thought.... There are some members that are great at drawing, animating etc that to a newbie might be a bit daunting and put them off entering when they look at their own work.

To stop this from happening what if members could only show images/videos/Completed game link in the last week of the contest before voting starts?

I myself am guilty of this...

What do you lot think?

[Kitty Trouble]

I'm not sure but I will say that I'm more likely to complete a mags if I don't have to do every graphic from scratch. That being said there are pros and cons.

[Retro Wolf]

I've been working on a little project where AGSers combine all their unwanted and old artwork. Could be useful for MAGS if allowed.
Just look at Ocean Spirit Dennis, in his world they allow people to use freely available art in their game projects, look how happy he is. Click him, go on!

[Nr. 2698]

Hi there,

for me its great to do teams.
Well there are two sides of the medal, to do teams can be difficult to handle and there can be some issues in imagination,
but for me doing all by my person blocks a lot of my mind. While doing graphics i thinking bout the story, while that about the puzzles and the other direction.

On the other hand im really bad in programming, creating puzzles and write good dialogues.
Cant be good in everything.

Doing teams can be take a lot of responsibility if everybody has his own realm.

I havent much time, because having a stressy job an family, but i want to make a mags game.
So i like to build a team where i create the graphics in my own monochrome pixelart style.
A game which is totally reduced but full of fun.

Searching for AGS progammer and somebody who can do good puzzles and dialogues.
I just doing the graphics efforts.

If there is anybody, who has already experience and wants to join please write me.

Greetings from Bavaria,
Christian

[Jack]

I don't think there's a problem with MAGS in itself, it's probably more that people don't have us much time as we used to, or when we do it's not at the right time.

More teams is a good idea. One possibility is to remove the theme constraint. I'm not much of a fan of the change to allow old content, it feels like it goes against the spirit of a game jam, but it could be a time saver. Public domain assets are a different matter in my opinion. Perhaps that distinction should be made, between a game someone has been working on for x months, vs a game someone made within a month using whatever they could find or make.

The best thing would be to grow the community. But how could we do that?

[dactylopus]

I support the use of public domain assets of all kinds.

I had an interesting thought about participation as it relates to teams.  There are many reasons someone might not want to initiate a team, so what about a draft?  What I mean is that people can sign up for MAGS as an artist, programmer, musician, writer, or whatever, and then teams can be assembled taking one from each category.  Of course some categories may not get participants, so there's that to consider, but I still think it's an idea that could work.  And the team assembly can be done before the start of the competition.

So maybe this isn't for every MAGS, but maybe drafted teams could be an option for a MAGS rule in some future competition.

[Danvzare]

I support the use of public domain assets of all kinds.

Do you mean The AGS Trove?
I just wanted to point that out, because it almost seems as though everyone forgot about it as soon as it started. And I still think it's a great idea.

[VampireWombat]

There are several other places to get public domain game assets. If not for the Open Pixel Project, I wouldn't have gotten anything close to playable for last month's game.
I haven't forgotten The AGS Trove myself. I was using to use assets from The Visitor portion in the game I failed to finish for the 102 Adventure Jam thing last month. I've also meant to contribute to it several times.
So, yeah. I'm all for using premade assets in a MAGS game. But I'm also in favor of doing something different with it somehow. Of course I wouldn't complain if someone made a game using assets purely from RoN or Maniac Mansion Mania either...

[dactylopus]

I support the use of public domain assets of all kinds.

Do you mean The AGS Trove?
I just wanted to point that out, because it almost seems as though everyone forgot about it as soon as it started. And I still think it's a great idea.

Yes, among other sources.

[Radiant]

I would probaly join MAGS more often if it were allowed to use public domain graphic resources. Then again I don't have a lot of time for MAGS in general, so I'm not really representative here...

[Cassiebsg]

The last couple months it has been allowed to use any pre-made graphics...

[Retro Wolf]

The Trove isn't dead, it's just sleeping!

I'm still open for admissions, I only update when I have a reasonable amount of extra content to add.
I stopped posting about it because like Danzvare said interest seemed to die down, and I didn't want to get on people's nerves by making multiple posts begging for content.

Click the signature.

[Jim Reed]

Making computer games is a job that needs multiple fields of knowledge, from graphics, sound, story, puzzle, design, coding, etc. Rarely a single person is gifted in all of the skills needed, which in turn leads to games having very weak presentation in some form or another. Teaming up is an option, but the communication between team members gives an overhead of work that needs to be managed along with everything else, and 30 days is not a lot of time. Stressful as it might be due to the time crunch, mags is a great way to build up useful game making skills, from planing to executing your ideas to building up a finished game. Allowing pre-made, publicly available assets is one way of easing the strain on the game developers.

Aside from that, there is a limited user base here on the forums, and you cannot expect that there will be 10 entries every month. Every mags that has at least one game finished is a good mags imo, but sometimes the theme is attractive to a larger number of people, and circumstances leave them with enough time and energy to give it a go. Quantity and quality are both positive here, and if you want more quantity, growing the AGS user base would logically mean the attendance would expand. As for quality; the skills of the developers are the main factor, and helping them increase them through tutorials, twitch streams, videos, demo games, open source projects and the like is the way to go. If you are active in the community and contribute, the activity level rises, which in turn makes other people more active, which in turn makes you more active and so on and so forth. Start from yourself, contribute what you can, the effort might be small or large (which is relative anyway) but it all adds up.

Also a shout out to Slasher who has been extremely active in mags competitions, there is not much I want to say, just a hearty applause.

[Blondbraid]

I agree, I'd much rather see a MAGS with two good, complete entries than ten entries where about eight are little more than a title screen and a two minute demo.
One of the reasons I don't participate in MAGS more is that if I'm going to make an entry, I want to make a concept I like and believe in and I want to have time to
make something that's playable from start to finish and has real graphics rather than placeholders. It just doesn't feel worth it to spend time and energy on something
I know I won't be able to finish and no one would vote for just for just for the sake of it.

[VampireWombat]

And I'm kind of the opposite of Blondbraid. I'm doing MAGS to push myself and gain experience with actually finishing something, even if it's not great. With each game I learn at least one new thing.
Of course since I plan to participate in MAGS every month I can, I might not be a great target for this thread...

[Stupot]

I guess we've found the answer. Unleash a deadly virus, forcing worldwide lockdowns and giving people plenty of spare time and no excuses.

6 games for April and 7 for March. Let's keep up this momentum!

[Racoon]

I guess we've found the answer. Unleash a deadly virus, forcing worldwide lockdowns and giving people plenty of spare time and no excuses.

6 games for April and 7 for March. Let's keep up this momentum!

Aah, so you´re the one behind corona to get more people to participate in MAGS! Does Trump know?  *puts on tin foil hat*

[4KbShort]

I know that reviving a zombie thread isn't the most proper online etiquette. However, I didn't want to post a new thread since this one wasn't locked and is on topic for what I wanted to post. Also, the charter/rules didn't say anything negative about it so I'm taking a chance.    

I heard of MAGS from OneShortEye on YouTube talking about Owl's Quest which was an old MAGS entry. I think a few other people may have heard about it from there as well. Along with that I see a few people stumble in from the internet every now and again and get excited about the idea even if they don't have the time to participate.

I love Game Jams as they give me the best option of "finishing" a game even if it's just intro->credits with a lot of jank between and I tend to gravitate towards Ludum Dare like so many others, but when I don't have time to get into that I often want to find a new jam to work on in order to make a game under crunch and to do that I go to Itch.io which has a Jams section right at the top of the page.

I took a look today and didn't see MAGS on there. I also don't see MAGS or Adventure Games Studio as a "commonly used suggested" tag when I post my games which suggests a lot of AGS/MAGS games don't end up on Itch.io. There are a ton of people on Itch.io and one of the important things on getting your name out there is to put it where people can see it and though MAGS is great for the AGS community it seems if you'd like more participation or at least knowledge of its existence, getting the name on a game distribution site meant primarily for self-published games of any genre or completion with and without monetary compensation would be a good little boost.

And to respond to some VERY old concerns about pre-made assets there's a ton of those for paid and for free on Itch.io as well which can be used to make a quick adventure game without falling into the "everything looks the same" problem that might occur from a single source.

Since Stupot is the main mod for the jams I would assume it would be up to them to host the jam, but it is an option to increase the number of entries or at least to get people to look at them a bit more.

[Kastchey]

It would require all participants to have an itch.io account and submit their entries to itch instead of here, I guess? Or is there an option to advertise only, without using the platform for entry submission and/or voting?

Other than that, it's an interesting suggestion. People tend to prefer aggregated community hubs for finding stuff like competitions, and itch looks like a decent host with their user friendly reasonable rules, voting and promotion systems.

[cat]

But Itch has terrible privacy rules. When you buy a game there, the author will get all your data including e-mail address and even postal address(?).

[CaptainD]

Cat - I'm pretty certain devs have never had access to mailing address, at least I've never seen any (using Itch since 2017). They need your address for tax purposes but I have never seen an address of a buyer, perhaps someone else who uses Itch has?

Email address is slightly trickier - it doesn't appear in the game reporting dashboard anymore, but (and I only know because I've just specifically checked) you do seem to be able to access this data if you download a sales report in csv format.

In terms of gamejams neither of the above would apply as you only get data on actual sales, not on every download. What I'm not certain of is whether data is logged if people make a donation for a game offered without charge - I've had people add an extra payment onto a sale a couple of times, but never actually had a donation on a game I've not charged for on Itch, so not sure how that works.

[Stupot]

I like this idea and look into it as an option.

I'd prefer to keep the contest fourum-based overall. I don't want to force every participant to submit through Itch. Basically anyone can host their game anywhere but must post about it in the relevant thread. I don't think that will change.

But if it's possible to run an Itch jam alongside it as a way of drumming up participation (even just occasionally, rather than every month) then I'm all for it.

[Stupot]

So, as an experiment, I have created a parallel jam in itch.io and invited users there to sign up and submit their games in the thread.

https://itch.io/jam/mags-august-2023

I'm not super familiar with how Jams work there, so if anyone has any suggestions for edits or changes to the Jam page, please let me know.

Thanks @4KbShort for the suggestion.

[Falsely]

[...]In terms of gamejams neither of the above would apply as you only get data on actual sales, not on every download. What I'm not certain of is whether data is logged if people make a donation for a game offered without charge - I've had people add an extra payment onto a sale a couple of times, but never actually had a donation on a game I've not charged for on Itch, so not sure how that works.

I can confirm it works the same way for the "pay what you want" model; it logs email, IP, country of residence, payment service, and (if the buyer is using Stripe) full name in the .csv. Also the domain of whatever website referred the buyer/donator to the game's store page, if any. (e.g., if you bought a game after clicking a link on these forums, it adds a note reading "from: adventuregamestudio.co.uk".)

None of this applies if your game is deliberately un-monetized, or if the user opts out of paying by clicking "no thanks, just take me to the downloads".

[4KbShort]

So, as an experiment, I have created a parallel jam in itch.io and invited users there to sign up and submit their games in the thread.

https://itch.io/jam/mags-august-2023

I'm not super familiar with how Jams work there, so if anyone has any suggestions for edits or changes to the Jam page, please let me know.

Thanks @4KbShort for the suggestion.

Awesome! Here's hoping this brings more folks into the wonderful world of AGS!

[Kitty Trouble]

I noticed that MAGS don't mention this anymore, but was it decided that public/outside graphics are allowed now?

[Stupot]

I noticed that MAGS don't mention this anymore, but was it decided that public/outside graphics are allowed now?

Yes that is correct. The used to be a rule that no pre-made assets were allowed but we loosened that rule to try to lower the barrier for entry. So yes you can use existing graphics etc, if used sensibly And aim to give credit where it's due.

[Stupot]

I realised today that we haven't had more than two entries at all this year.

Between January and October we've had an average of 1.8 entries. August's experiment of hosting the jam concurrently on Itch.io failed to increase numbers.

What is keeping people away?
I understand finding time is hard for a lot of people but there must be something else at play.

Are people not seeing/checking the theme at the beginning of each month?

Are the themes themselves not exciting enough? Too specific, too generic?

I'm interested to know if anyone has any thoughts as to what puts them off and what might entice them to have a go.

Cheers.

[eri0o]

I have no knowledge about other people so I can only speak for myself. I have made a few entries that I didn't manage to bring them to completion, and at the same time I don't think it's fair to import my half- finished code to a next mags opportunity, so I end up starting over in the other month. But I am feeling a bit overwhelmed with things at my work so when I have free time I find it I don't want to spend it at the computer - my work is mostly in managing people and projects these days and it can easily empty my social batteries.

Other than this the themes have felt interesting, so haven't had a problem with that.

Now, to switch and not talk specifics about me. Other game engines are more like a product, and they have a company or entity behind that cares about evangelism or there is some worry about getting people from outside in. I play Magic The Gathering and I see the people that work there in R&D talking about how to get new people to start playing, how to do retention, and how to get people that have stopped to come back.

AGS is not a product and there isn't any sort of behavior of evangelism on the community - most people feels more pragmatic about best tool to the job or whatever other behavior, but in general does not reach to other people outside the community to talk about the engine. A counter example is Edmundito's talk this year at narrascope, which was specifically talking about AGS to people not from the community.

This topic and the awards topic feels like community dwindling - or at least forum presence dwindling. This doesn't mean reduced numbers of users necessarily, as there's a quite few numbers of developers that use AGS that simply never use the Forums. I see a lot of AGS games on itch Io that don't mark the games as made in adventure game studio and some jams specifically disencourage using it - GMTK jam is the one I think here.

These are a bit of unfiltered thoughts on topic of community growing/retention in my way to work, mostly because I am curious about what other people think about this.

[heltenjon]

Do you think a link to the current month's MAGS contest on the front page would help?

Or posting next month's rules early, giving a bit more time?

[glurex]

(...) and some jams specifically disencourage using it - GMTK jam is the one I think here.

Yes, I have noted that too. I never understood this prejudice since, although AGS is mainly used for adventure/point & click, it is somewhat versatile. While the game is 2D* and goes up to 1080 (I don't know how the engine works with various 4K animations), till now I haven't found anything in it that I can't do in, for example, Unity or Godot.

*Yeah, I know there are modules for a kind of 3D, but clearly, it's not the engine's strength. And that isn't a problem for me.

I don't believe in good or bad game engines... there are engines optimal for the game you want to develop. And AGS seems very competent to me.

[Cassiebsg]

For me is mainly time. I just don't have the same time I had to dedicate as I used to. And I also want to finish my unfinished previous entries...

Or posting next month's rules early, giving a bit more time?

This would not help, for me anyway, because that's not the kind of time I'm lacking. I know I can make a game in a month (done it before], because I know I can also make a game in 24H (also done it before). The kind of time I'm in lack is the one where I can sit at the computer and not feel guilty that I should be doing something else in RL that needs to be prioritized (because if I don't do it, nobody else will).

[Kastchey]

For me, announcing the theme earlier would help. I only get so much free time a month (not unlike nearly everyone else here, I bet) and there's a constant battle of priorities, in between work, parenting and other random (but important) stuff. I may get 15 hours to work on a game a month, or I may get zero. Having some extra days would increase the chance I squeeze out those several hours I need to finish a small game.

The themes are good and I almost always remember to check them on day 1. More often than not, they spark an idea that I like and I feel I could use a distraction from the long term projects (not just games... I have an unhealthy amount of hobbies and the shiny bauble syndrome). So in my view at least, there is nothing wrong with the competition itself. It's just me and my lack of time. And sometimes focus.

[RootBound]

Hey all,

While discussing next month's MAGS theme with @Stupot I proposed the option of bringing back the "finish a previous unfinished MAGS entry" option which has been done in the past, but not for several years. I like the rules for it that are formulated here.

Ultimately, for December I went with a different theme (still to be announced), but it seemed worthwhile to post the "finish an old unfinished entry" idea here and see if it's something people would like to see again in the future, perhaps once a year.

Any interest? Would that make people more likely to finish old entries and create more participation in the competition? I think the rules linked above are pretty good.

[Kastchey]

Yes please! These should happen more often.

[Ponch]

For me, it comes down to time. I used to have quite a bit of free time. Now I don't have a lot of that. A side effect of getting older and having a job that demands more of me than previous jobs did in my younger, more carefree years. Goodness, real life is so inconvenient! I suspect that's true for a lot of the users here, at least judging from the ages I see at the bottom of the page, in the users birthdays area (mine included).

I really like the notion of "Finish Your MAGS" returning as a theme. Heck, if anything, I'd have a hard time choosing which unfinished project to finish!  Why, it should be an annual thing! Once a year, we could all look forward to a great deluge of hastily assembled games given a second chance at life!

Also, I had no idea some places discouraged the use of AGS.    GMTK jam, shame on you! 

[Kastchey]

Why, it should be an annual thing! Once a year, we could all look forward to a great deluge of hastily assembled games given a second chance at life!

I shied away from suggesting this myself, but I had similar thoughts. "Finish your MAGS entry" every December!

[CaptainD]

Goodness, real life is so inconvenient!

       It's soooooooo true!!

The days seem to go by so quickly that I can't keep up, but I have often wondered if - at least sometimes - the time for making a game shouldn't be extended to 2 months. (Yes I know that goes against the ethos and even the name of MAGS...) Again, perhaps this is something that could be considered for once a year. I know that for one month the chances of me being able to think I have time to work on something are tiny, but 2 months just maybe... anyway just thinking out loud, I appreciate that probably won't be a popular idea.

[Stupot]

I like the idea of an annual "finish your MAGS" round, but I'm torn.

The two options would be:
(1) to have it as that month's theme, in which case it isn't fair to November's winner, who might want to choose their own theme. It also excludes potential first-timers.
(2) to have it running alongside the chosen theme. But with entry numbers already so low, it doesn't seem wise to split the pack.

Of the two, I'm personally leaning towards (2). It seems there is genuine interest in the idea of a "finish your MAGS" round. But I wouldn't want the main theme to suffer.

The good news is I've already set up a thread for MAGS December for RootBound's original theme Forbidden.


If we were to have a concurrent "Finish you MAGS" event running, I would want to make it a separate thread and have voting separately on each thread so that the regular MAGS and the Finish your MAGS entries aren't competing against each other. One benefit of this is you get a cheeky extra shot at getting a slot in the MAGGIES shortlist.

Shall I go ahead and set this up?

[heltenjon]

I like this idea, too. There is the small problem that these games will have more time, but I am in favour of everything that can get us more games.  Such a thread could in theory run all year.

[RootBound]

@Stupot With regard to the previous winner not picking a theme, it could simply be that the "finish your entry" winner doesn't pick anything, and the winner the month before the finish-old-things theme picks the theme for the month after it. Just one possibility, of course.

[Ponch]

it could simply be that the "finish your entry" winner doesn't pick anything, and the winner the month before the finish-old-things theme picks the theme for the month after it.

I like this idea.

[Kastchey]

Same. Makes perfect sense to me.

[cat]

In Scrum there is a saying: If you can't finish your sprint in time, make it shorter.
The reasoning is, a shorter time frame is easier to plan, track and execute. I think making MAGS two month long could have the effect of dragging on and being more demanding. I'd rather go the other way round and make a MAGS theme where you have only two weeks to finish your game and the rest is reserved for testing and improving.
Or, we could have another OROW.

[eri0o]

I too prefer shorter sprints as the scope is smaller they are easier to execute - planing is hard either way I think.

[heltenjon]

I think a great motivator would be if many of us played the games and provided feedback. To hear what people think about your creation, praise, friendly advice for improvement, basically just other ags-ers taking an interest in what you do. Making games in a vacuum is a lonely business, and encouragement is crucial.

[Kastchey]

In Scrum there is a saying: If you can't finish your sprint in time, make it shorter.
The reasoning is, a shorter time frame is easier to plan, track and execute. I think making MAGS two month long could have the effect of dragging on and being more demanding. I'd rather go the other way round and make a MAGS theme where you have only two weeks to finish your game and the rest is reserved for testing and improving.
Or, we could have another OROW.

Scrum typically means something related to your day job, so you get your regular 8h of paid time per weekday to plan stuff out For me at least, it works a bit differently when it comes to hobbies. It's more like the wider time frame, the higher the chance I will squeeze out the few days I need to release something playable. A day here, another day two weeks later, a couple near the end of the month. Just different schedules and lifestyle, I guess.

This said, it's just me. If someone is up for kicking off OROW and people feel excited to participate, why not

[Cassiebsg]

Yes, yes and yes.

Maybe the "finish the old MAGS theme" could just get a little trophy or some thing to the likes. But we should probably find a month where "nothing special" happens... Like December many time brings x-mas themes, and October is Halloween. Just so those special event months are available, if the winner wants to pick a related month event.