Topic: Romance between game characters, can it be done?

[GarageGothic]

Maybe this has been discussed before in the forums, but I thought it was an interesting topic. For a long time, I've been thinking about how to implement a romance between the player character and an NPC in the game that I'm writing.

I've replayed some old games, and so far I haven't found a succesful example of it being done. There seems to be a number of approaches, most of them pretty stereotypical:

1) Player character in a relationship when game starts. Phantasmagoria 1 and 2 did that. Police Quest 2 and 3, and I suppose, a couple of the Larry games. Rise of the Dragon did it pretty well, as far as I recall. Often the love interest is used as a plot device (Damsel in Distress - if there is a girlfriend, she's bound to be kidnapped at some point) or just as a means of establishing the more emotional side of the toughguy detective. Steve Dorian in Dagger of Amon Ra, probably the most ridiculous love interest in any game (and not just because he's a guy), has a damsel in distress role as well - the trouble being that you hardly even know him and don't really care if he should step on a poisoned nail without his boot on .

2) The player character, for some weird reason (Love at first sight, destiny, magic) falls in love with some complete stranger, and pursues them either to the end of the game, or at least for a while. Sometimes the object of affection is the goal of the game (KQ2 and KQ6 come to mind), or a means of getting the player character further involved in the plot (Gabriel Knight). Monkey Island did this too with Elaine, but at least they tried to make her likeable.

3) Player character and love interest work together throughout the game, and - of course - have a love/hate relationship. Think Cybil Shepard and Bruce Willis in Moonlighting. Gk2 and 3 had plenty of sexual tension between Grace and Gabriel as did the Broken Sword series with George and Nico. Oh yeah, not to forget Indy 4 with Sophia.

As far as I know, very little has been written on the role of character interaction in graphic adventures as opposed to in IF (where dialog alternatives are much less obvious than in point and click. But I suppose it's related to different views on the player character: Is the character an avatar, a tool for the player to interact with the game world, or is he a role that the player is trying to act out, a character with a preset personality and emotions beyond the player's control.

Should any romance be written as a potential rather than a fact? Should the player be able to choose whether or not they would like to pursue the relationship? How much interactivity is needed for the relationship to seem plausible? I hated the way GK1 just assumed that I would understand Gabe's attraction to Malia. But I see how it would be extremely difficult to tell the story if the romance was optional.
Also, I would like to hear your thoughts on how romance and courtship should be "played out". Most games seem to deal with it as a simplified seduction, usually consisting of giving the right item to your object of affection - love as market economics. I don't even want to mention the Larry series, but even a lot of more serious games let you buy flowers or jewelry to convice the person of your feelings. Quest for Glory 5 was really bad in this respect.
But in what other ways could you imagine romance told through player interactions?

I think the most interesting romance in any game I've played was between Gabriel and von Glower in GK2, because it was an attraction between equals. And the NPC wasn't passive, quite the opposite, he was the one seducing Gabe. The only trouble was that this part of the story was only told in cutscenes. The player never had a choice. And I think that made it less powerful - because the theme of the game was very much one of choice, of following or repressing your animal nature.

The approach that I've currently chosen (but the game is still only in the design phase, so it could easily change, should anyone come up with something better), is - as in GK2 - for the NPC to be interested in the PC from their first meeting. This won't be a seduction subplot. The interaction will consist in the PC choosing, or not choosing, to open up to and let themselves get involved with the non player character. The player will have multiple choices - dialog options, actions (such as choosing to go or not to go to the NPCs party). But none of the available options will be out of character. The romance isn't part of the major plot, so it won't cause trouble with branching plot lines. It's used to reflect the state of mind and the growth - or lack of evolution -  of the player character.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.

[Bionic Bill]

Good topic here.

The two approaches to character you've chosen are spot-on. They're either the player's tool, or the set of thoughts/emotions/actions the player experiences the game through. I definitely prefer the latter, and that doesn't seem to prohibit interactivity, as you've shown.

I think the important thing to realize is that games do a crappy job with love because most are low-brow entertainment. I mean, when was the last time you saw a movie deal with love well?

Games try to quantify things just to make it more simple. Like the Sims has a satisfaction-meter, if I remember correctly. Anyone who's lived knows things don't work that way, just like the random fall-in-love-with-a-stranger used in video games and movies. It's just simple and we don't have to think about what the heck love actually is.

Anyways, I like the approach you're taking. It seems like realism could be heightened a lot if there were even just one peripheral relationship that could grow or not grow.

I have yet to play the Gabriel Knight series, but the only mildly decent portrayal of love I can think of off the top of my head is in Grim Fandango. We have Manny going after Meche with mostly selfish motives, but knowing she's a saint. She's angry at him and refuses him, but when he shows he actually cares, she reacts positively. It's not fantastically developed or even compelling, but at least it makes sense.

[Privateer Puddin']

Monkey Island 1/2 worked for me.  

I was around 5 when i played them and could feel the chemistry between them

[Sluggo]

I don't think any kind of media would deal well with what love acutally is, unless it was like the game you described, but that would be a lot of work for just a side-line interaction between two characters. The point is to be entertained, and people like the thrill of love at first sight, seduction, and lust, so that's what's used to entertain people. take a look at plays like Romeo and Juliet and countless ballets, operas, movies, and books. You wouldn't watch a movie to be anything but entertained, or would you?

[DragonRose]

An example of what NOT to do is the marriage subplots in Quest for Glory 5.  "If I give you flowers and trinkets, we will fall in love!"  Blaaaaaa....  It's possible to get all the girls to fall in love with you, but I'm not sure if you can give them all wedding rings. DO NOT DO THAT! The same thing happened in QG3, I think.  If you talk to the leopard girl whose name I can't remember about "Romance," she kisses you and it fades to black.

Oh.  The romanticness. :

I think that Romance CAN be done in a game, but you have to do it carefully.  In GK3, when Gabriel finally realizes that he has feelings for Grace, it makes sense.  There is chemistry there, they're equals, and it's all so lovey dovey.

But we have to remember it took three games to set it up.  They start off just working together, then they become partners, then they become more-than-partners.  Gradual evolution of feeling works well. But then again, by GK3 Grace and Gabe are both PC's, so that probably isn't the best example.

I guess what I'm saying is you have to be careful about making it a player choice for the character to fall in love or not.  If you can do it without having the it as a really simplistic choice: "Do you want to go out: yes/no?" or really mathematical like the presents thing in QG5, it could work really well.  I can't wait to see what you do, GG!

[Las Naranjas]

The main strength in GK3's romance subplot wasn't so much in the writing (great games, it's still pulpy), but in the fact that both characters were PC's. That led to far greater empathy with both sides, something I enjoyed.

Which adds no help in aiding you with a PC-NPC relationship.

[frobozz]

Hm, interesting thread.

I've been thinking along a similar train of thought as of late.  As much as I'd love to have a romantic interest in my current game, I know that the whole thing would fall flat on its face if it wasn't handled with a great amount of tact.

I mean, look at any flavour-of-the-month Final Fantasy style RPG.  Most of them  are just variations on a theme (eg. the love triangle between the hero, the summoner-caster, and the female warror).  

One game that handled romance fairly well that I can recall was Wing Commander 3.  Nope, not an adventure game (although you did walk around a battleship and converse with people inbetween missions). Near the end you had to choose between two characters.  You could even choose to reject both of them, and in the closing cinematic you're seen sitting in your ship with an empty seat.  What made all this work for me was that you got to know the characters throughout the course of the game (and in some cases, even the older games in the series like Hobbes and Maniac) and so there was an emotional connection between the characters on-screen and the player, so it became more to us than just a talking head.

I chose Flint, by the way.  

-Fro.

PS--I agree wholeheartedly about Gabriel / Von Glower.  

[golan trevize x]

Couldn't resist posting in this topic!

I think I agree that it's a difficult thing to do well. Speaking of Final Fantasies, I think no. 8 did a good job, but the romance was really the main theme for the two main characters. The whole story REVOLVED around the humbling relationship between these two.

Gabriel Knight 2 was done awesomely - I loved the realism and "maturity" of Gabe and Grace's relationship, but I think this effect was easier to achieve because the game used FMV and actors. (the Von Glower thing was powerful too - Jensen really picked up something profound about the male psyche). I really didn't "feel the love" in GK3.

I agree about Grim Fandango, nice romantic elements there.

The two biggest recent adventure titles I've played (TLJ and Syberia) focus on self-discovery rather than romance.

I see the solution to this problem as a choice between going for something mature and realistic, or something symbolic and "superficial". Computer games have traditionally gone with the latter, but it shouldn't be placed in a game with otherwise "mature" character development.

Nathan

Frobozz: Yeah, I had to go with flint too, she was just more real or something!

[DGMacphee]

GK3 has a great romance subplot -- and I especially like Mosley's advice to Gabriel after he and Grace do the nasty.

"Just pretend like it never happened."

You doofus, Mosley!

Aslo, I liked Grim Fandango's romance story -- particularly the way it ends.

However, I think the best romance plot (and a lot of people are going to see this coming a mile off) is Seasons of Sakura.

The romance is the focus of the game, and the NPCs are still well written without being subjected to anime "barbie doll" syndrome.

Alot of people don't like games like this though, because they're generally seen as "hentai" or perverted sex games -- however, there's very little sex throughout the game, and most of the erotic content is very toned-down.

My view is this: Compared to a lot of other "hentai" games out there, Seasons of Sakura couldn't really be called a hentai game -- the focus isn't as much the sexually content (like so many hentai games), but the general relationships between the main charatcer and the NPCs.

And that's the whole point of the games -- to develop relationships.

I can't say too much on this particular game, or else this post will be too big.

One day, I'll write a story and character tutorial and borrow examples from GK, Grim Fandango, Seasons of Sakura, and others.

[Andail]

I had a romance in my game. It was rather short, but I'm sure it was pretty intense.

[BerserkerTails]

Although it's been done cliche, Ias best as I can remember all the games I've played with romance, it has been done pretty good. One game that truly sticks out in my mind (Albeit not an adventure game per-se) would be Metal Gear Solid. The character developement in that game is amazing, and by the end, you feel for every character, making the outcome of decisions made earlier in the game even more profound.

*SIGH* I love that game  

Anyway, I'm trying to have a romantic sub-plot in my game. Hopefully I can build the characters enough to get the player to care for them.

[Cerulean]

I'm still trying to figure out what to do with Birch L. Zebra, which is still in the "all-in-my-head" stage.

Summary, without giving away too much: The main character will meet someone he saw in a dream, and the dream will turn out to have been an awakening of sorts to the true nature of the world he lives in. She will become sort of his mentor and guide, introducing him to the secrets of magic.

This woman would immediately appear to be the romantic interest, not only because she's the female lead, but because the main character realistically would become infatuated with her in this situation, and probably will. I think I could pull off a decent romantic arc with this.

However, I don't think I want them to get together. Firstly, their comparative status means they can't really relate to each other as equals. More importantly, certain indisposable aspects of the character will probably make an ex-girlfriend of mine think it's about her, when it's not really. She's married and a mother, and we have sort of a stable friendship, and I don't want to make her uncomfortable. Birch is very much me and there's no getting around that.

The way I would prefer the story to go is for the female lead to make clear that she is already spoken for, and our hero will be a good guy and back off like Jeff Goldblum in Jurassic Park. The problem is that I don't think this will satisfy the players of the game. Nothing frustrates an adventure gamer more than putting a big locked door in front of them that can't be opened; it's not an effective way of saying "really, you can't go here," because it looks like a challenge and they will keep trying. And some people will go through the whole game thinking that everything they're doing is toward the goal of seeing the happy couple hook up at the end, and feel ripped off when the game ends and they don't. I'm not sure how to address this.

[Vel]

One of the best love stories ever appeared in a game is definately Runaway's. The character falls in love with a woman, of who he knows nothing about. She tries to use him at first, but then she also falls in love with him. At the end of the game, Brian gave up his studies just to be with her.

[Las Naranjas]

We really have to talk about love stories as written taking into account the the differences of the medium.

as interesting as the tensions were in the first two GK games, there wasn't that much that couldn't have been achieved in film or text.

GK3 had more elements there, since much of the relationship could be divulged from comments made only on the impetus of the player (looking at things mainly)

and DG, on that note, are you one of the people who became absorbed in True Love. There too the impetus is on the relations rather than the hentai.

[Ghost]

i say legend of kyrandia 2, hand of fate. that's a nice approach: you  (playing  zanthia) meet a guy who is the typical handsome, clumsy boaster.first they don't like each other but then zanthia has to save him (marco) a couple of times. finally she admits that she somewhat likes him, and in the end, they fall for each other (and save the world of course)
the clever thing is that, even though  you cannot really chose if zanthia loves marco or not, they fit. both are magicians,both try to save the world, and there are several chapters where you can either save marco or leave him in a sticky situation (he'll somehow manage to break free by himself). it's not much interaction, okay, buti found it quite a nice touch.

[DGMacphee]

Narangas, I'd say True Love would have to be my second favourite anime adventure (which isn't saying much on a anime adventure scale -- most are hentai garbage).

I liked True Love a lot not only because the focus was on relationship, but also on personal development.

This bring me to another point -- True Love isn't just about getting the girl. It's about improving yourself to get the girl.

[GarageGothic]

Wow, great to see how many people responded to this topic. Obviously I'm not the only one thinking about this.

Cerulean, I don't know what genre/mood you want for your game - but if it's even remotely serious, why don't you just have the npc show that she isn't interested? Unless you're playing off the sexual tension (Mulder/Scully style) I don't see why the player shouldn't accept this, and I'm not sure why he would even consider the possibility unless you somehow insinuate it. After all, this isn't Larry and the player character surely has more important goals than to "bag the babe"?

Too many movies throw in a romance just to satisfy a certain segment of the audience - the worst example that comes to mind being From Hell - and I think it's pretty terrible that we assume that anything romantic or sexual will happen just because you put a male and a female character in the same movie. In other words - If it's not necessary for the story or the characters, keep romance out of it.

I haven't played much hentai (it seems to me that you just click through the options until you hit the right one - and when you do, something entirely different happens than what you anticipated) but I assume that most of the games are "quests" for some girl that ends when you finally get her? Am I right? Anyway, as an additional question for my first post: Do you think that the player character and the npc should only get together at the end of the game, or could this happen in the middle of the game (and I don't mean Larry-style: "sleep with her, then on to the next conquest")? How do you imagine that their relationship as a couple (as opposed to just dating) could be told in a game? And how could it be used in telling the story?

Also, how do you feel about sex scenes in games? There haven't been too many within mainstream gaming (had there been a single one in LucasArts' games?) and often they have been rather embarassing. Either trying too hard to be naughty (Larry) or ridiculously chaste (Codename: Iceman come to mind). Some of the FMV games came pretty close - GK2 had at least the prelude to an erotic scene, and the Phantasmagoria games both contained pretty explicit sexual sequences.
I thought Phantasmagoria 2 was based too much on sex - even though it was part of the plot - it just seemed like a bad exploitation movie. But the sex-turned-into-rape scene in Phantasmagoria 1 on the other hand was in my opinion very effective in a dramatic sense - it was the first time you really understood how Don's personality had changed. And it was handled in a pretty mature way, unlike the cheap S&M in P2.

One of the reasons I'm asking, is that the main character in my game is a lesbian, and her love interest is a woman (maybe we could start another topic on gay characters in games ). At one point in the game, there is a chance of them getting intimate, and I would like to show at least a bit more than just a kiss, but in a tasteful manner. I'd hate it, if people thought that I chose a lesbian character, just to be able to show two women in bed. But on the other hand, I don't want it too seem like I WON'T allow them to be physically intimate, just because they're gay. I don't even want the scene to seem erotic to the player - there are too many psychological levels in how they end up together for it to be titillating, but I suppose that some people might not be able to see beyond the nudity. Should I remove this scene entirely from the game?

Any thoughts or advice would be greatly appreciated

[n3tgraph]

ugh...

I was going to read all these posts... but I can't get myself to it
all these long posts

anyways making love scenes in games are always hard imo. You don't want your adventure to turn in to a barbie game or somethin'

There where the most of us want to create a rather funny OR a rather scary / violent game, real romantic is very hard to implement

[GarageGothic]

My game IS scary (not very violent or graphic, but quite unsettling in a David Lynch sort of way), and that's why I want to use romantic scenes as a counterpoint to the horror. Also, there is little to be scared about unless you actually care about the characters. As for funny - well, I don't do funny

[DGMacphee]

My point of view is this:

As long as your characters have depth and feel like actual people, rather than one-dimensional characters, people will forgive you for anything.

Even having two women in bed together.

Just make sure they have a sense of identity -- game players are smart enough to realise the intent of an author.

If you focus upon story and character, the player will sense that.

If you focus upon sex, the player will also sense that.

As for showing intimacy, you don't have to show it in a physical sense -- try and use subtlety, like using a symbol to represent their relationship.

Most importantly: if you feel comfortable with your game, then who's to say you're wrong?