Romance between game characters, can it be done?

[GarageGothic]

Maybe this has been discussed before in the forums, but I thought it was an interesting topic. For a long time, I've been thinking about how to implement a romance between the player character and an NPC in the game that I'm writing.

I've replayed some old games, and so far I haven't found a succesful example of it being done. There seems to be a number of approaches, most of them pretty stereotypical:

1) Player character in a relationship when game starts. Phantasmagoria 1 and 2 did that. Police Quest 2 and 3, and I suppose, a couple of the Larry games. Rise of the Dragon did it pretty well, as far as I recall. Often the love interest is used as a plot device (Damsel in Distress - if there is a girlfriend, she's bound to be kidnapped at some point) or just as a means of establishing the more emotional side of the toughguy detective. Steve Dorian in Dagger of Amon Ra, probably the most ridiculous love interest in any game (and not just because he's a guy), has a damsel in distress role as well - the trouble being that you hardly even know him and don't really care if he should step on a poisoned nail without his boot on .

2) The player character, for some weird reason (Love at first sight, destiny, magic) falls in love with some complete stranger, and pursues them either to the end of the game, or at least for a while. Sometimes the object of affection is the goal of the game (KQ2 and KQ6 come to mind), or a means of getting the player character further involved in the plot (Gabriel Knight). Monkey Island did this too with Elaine, but at least they tried to make her likeable.

3) Player character and love interest work together throughout the game, and - of course - have a love/hate relationship. Think Cybil Shepard and Bruce Willis in Moonlighting. Gk2 and 3 had plenty of sexual tension between Grace and Gabriel as did the Broken Sword series with George and Nico. Oh yeah, not to forget Indy 4 with Sophia.

As far as I know, very little has been written on the role of character interaction in graphic adventures as opposed to in IF (where dialog alternatives are much less obvious than in point and click. But I suppose it's related to different views on the player character: Is the character an avatar, a tool for the player to interact with the game world, or is he a role that the player is trying to act out, a character with a preset personality and emotions beyond the player's control.

Should any romance be written as a potential rather than a fact? Should the player be able to choose whether or not they would like to pursue the relationship? How much interactivity is needed for the relationship to seem plausible? I hated the way GK1 just assumed that I would understand Gabe's attraction to Malia. But I see how it would be extremely difficult to tell the story if the romance was optional.
Also, I would like to hear your thoughts on how romance and courtship should be "played out". Most games seem to deal with it as a simplified seduction, usually consisting of giving the right item to your object of affection - love as market economics. I don't even want to mention the Larry series, but even a lot of more serious games let you buy flowers or jewelry to convice the person of your feelings. Quest for Glory 5 was really bad in this respect.
But in what other ways could you imagine romance told through player interactions?

I think the most interesting romance in any game I've played was between Gabriel and von Glower in GK2, because it was an attraction between equals. And the NPC wasn't passive, quite the opposite, he was the one seducing Gabe. The only trouble was that this part of the story was only told in cutscenes. The player never had a choice. And I think that made it less powerful - because the theme of the game was very much one of choice, of following or repressing your animal nature.

The approach that I've currently chosen (but the game is still only in the design phase, so it could easily change, should anyone come up with something better), is - as in GK2 - for the NPC to be interested in the PC from their first meeting. This won't be a seduction subplot. The interaction will consist in the PC choosing, or not choosing, to open up to and let themselves get involved with the non player character. The player will have multiple choices - dialog options, actions (such as choosing to go or not to go to the NPCs party). But none of the available options will be out of character. The romance isn't part of the major plot, so it won't cause trouble with branching plot lines. It's used to reflect the state of mind and the growth - or lack of evolution -  of the player character.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.

[Bionic Bill]

Good topic here.

The two approaches to character you've chosen are spot-on. They're either the player's tool, or the set of thoughts/emotions/actions the player experiences the game through. I definitely prefer the latter, and that doesn't seem to prohibit interactivity, as you've shown.

I think the important thing to realize is that games do a crappy job with love because most are low-brow entertainment. I mean, when was the last time you saw a movie deal with love well?

Games try to quantify things just to make it more simple. Like the Sims has a satisfaction-meter, if I remember correctly. Anyone who's lived knows things don't work that way, just like the random fall-in-love-with-a-stranger used in video games and movies. It's just simple and we don't have to think about what the heck love actually is.

Anyways, I like the approach you're taking. It seems like realism could be heightened a lot if there were even just one peripheral relationship that could grow or not grow.

I have yet to play the Gabriel Knight series, but the only mildly decent portrayal of love I can think of off the top of my head is in Grim Fandango. We have Manny going after Meche with mostly selfish motives, but knowing she's a saint. She's angry at him and refuses him, but when he shows he actually cares, she reacts positively. It's not fantastically developed or even compelling, but at least it makes sense.

[Privateer Puddin']

Monkey Island 1/2 worked for me.  

I was around 5 when i played them and could feel the chemistry between them

[Sluggo]

I don't think any kind of media would deal well with what love acutally is, unless it was like the game you described, but that would be a lot of work for just a side-line interaction between two characters. The point is to be entertained, and people like the thrill of love at first sight, seduction, and lust, so that's what's used to entertain people. take a look at plays like Romeo and Juliet and countless ballets, operas, movies, and books. You wouldn't watch a movie to be anything but entertained, or would you?

[DragonRose]

An example of what NOT to do is the marriage subplots in Quest for Glory 5.  "If I give you flowers and trinkets, we will fall in love!"  Blaaaaaa....  It's possible to get all the girls to fall in love with you, but I'm not sure if you can give them all wedding rings. DO NOT DO THAT! The same thing happened in QG3, I think.  If you talk to the leopard girl whose name I can't remember about "Romance," she kisses you and it fades to black.

Oh.  The romanticness. :

I think that Romance CAN be done in a game, but you have to do it carefully.  In GK3, when Gabriel finally realizes that he has feelings for Grace, it makes sense.  There is chemistry there, they're equals, and it's all so lovey dovey.

But we have to remember it took three games to set it up.  They start off just working together, then they become partners, then they become more-than-partners.  Gradual evolution of feeling works well. But then again, by GK3 Grace and Gabe are both PC's, so that probably isn't the best example.

I guess what I'm saying is you have to be careful about making it a player choice for the character to fall in love or not.  If you can do it without having the it as a really simplistic choice: "Do you want to go out: yes/no?" or really mathematical like the presents thing in QG5, it could work really well.  I can't wait to see what you do, GG!

[Las Naranjas]

The main strength in GK3's romance subplot wasn't so much in the writing (great games, it's still pulpy), but in the fact that both characters were PC's. That led to far greater empathy with both sides, something I enjoyed.

Which adds no help in aiding you with a PC-NPC relationship.

[frobozz]

Hm, interesting thread.

I've been thinking along a similar train of thought as of late.  As much as I'd love to have a romantic interest in my current game, I know that the whole thing would fall flat on its face if it wasn't handled with a great amount of tact.

I mean, look at any flavour-of-the-month Final Fantasy style RPG.  Most of them  are just variations on a theme (eg. the love triangle between the hero, the summoner-caster, and the female warror).  

One game that handled romance fairly well that I can recall was Wing Commander 3.  Nope, not an adventure game (although you did walk around a battleship and converse with people inbetween missions). Near the end you had to choose between two characters.  You could even choose to reject both of them, and in the closing cinematic you're seen sitting in your ship with an empty seat.  What made all this work for me was that you got to know the characters throughout the course of the game (and in some cases, even the older games in the series like Hobbes and Maniac) and so there was an emotional connection between the characters on-screen and the player, so it became more to us than just a talking head.

I chose Flint, by the way.  

-Fro.

PS--I agree wholeheartedly about Gabriel / Von Glower.  

[golan trevize x]

Couldn't resist posting in this topic!

I think I agree that it's a difficult thing to do well. Speaking of Final Fantasies, I think no. 8 did a good job, but the romance was really the main theme for the two main characters. The whole story REVOLVED around the humbling relationship between these two.

Gabriel Knight 2 was done awesomely - I loved the realism and "maturity" of Gabe and Grace's relationship, but I think this effect was easier to achieve because the game used FMV and actors. (the Von Glower thing was powerful too - Jensen really picked up something profound about the male psyche). I really didn't "feel the love" in GK3.

I agree about Grim Fandango, nice romantic elements there.

The two biggest recent adventure titles I've played (TLJ and Syberia) focus on self-discovery rather than romance.

I see the solution to this problem as a choice between going for something mature and realistic, or something symbolic and "superficial". Computer games have traditionally gone with the latter, but it shouldn't be placed in a game with otherwise "mature" character development.

Nathan

Frobozz: Yeah, I had to go with flint too, she was just more real or something!

[DGMacphee]

GK3 has a great romance subplot -- and I especially like Mosley's advice to Gabriel after he and Grace do the nasty.

"Just pretend like it never happened."

You doofus, Mosley!

Aslo, I liked Grim Fandango's romance story -- particularly the way it ends.

However, I think the best romance plot (and a lot of people are going to see this coming a mile off) is Seasons of Sakura.

The romance is the focus of the game, and the NPCs are still well written without being subjected to anime "barbie doll" syndrome.

Alot of people don't like games like this though, because they're generally seen as "hentai" or perverted sex games -- however, there's very little sex throughout the game, and most of the erotic content is very toned-down.

My view is this: Compared to a lot of other "hentai" games out there, Seasons of Sakura couldn't really be called a hentai game -- the focus isn't as much the sexually content (like so many hentai games), but the general relationships between the main charatcer and the NPCs.

And that's the whole point of the games -- to develop relationships.

I can't say too much on this particular game, or else this post will be too big.

One day, I'll write a story and character tutorial and borrow examples from GK, Grim Fandango, Seasons of Sakura, and others.

[Andail]

I had a romance in my game. It was rather short, but I'm sure it was pretty intense.

[BerserkerTails]

Although it's been done cliche, Ias best as I can remember all the games I've played with romance, it has been done pretty good. One game that truly sticks out in my mind (Albeit not an adventure game per-se) would be Metal Gear Solid. The character developement in that game is amazing, and by the end, you feel for every character, making the outcome of decisions made earlier in the game even more profound.

*SIGH* I love that game  

Anyway, I'm trying to have a romantic sub-plot in my game. Hopefully I can build the characters enough to get the player to care for them.

[Cerulean]

I'm still trying to figure out what to do with Birch L. Zebra, which is still in the "all-in-my-head" stage.

Summary, without giving away too much: The main character will meet someone he saw in a dream, and the dream will turn out to have been an awakening of sorts to the true nature of the world he lives in. She will become sort of his mentor and guide, introducing him to the secrets of magic.

This woman would immediately appear to be the romantic interest, not only because she's the female lead, but because the main character realistically would become infatuated with her in this situation, and probably will. I think I could pull off a decent romantic arc with this.

However, I don't think I want them to get together. Firstly, their comparative status means they can't really relate to each other as equals. More importantly, certain indisposable aspects of the character will probably make an ex-girlfriend of mine think it's about her, when it's not really. She's married and a mother, and we have sort of a stable friendship, and I don't want to make her uncomfortable. Birch is very much me and there's no getting around that.

The way I would prefer the story to go is for the female lead to make clear that she is already spoken for, and our hero will be a good guy and back off like Jeff Goldblum in Jurassic Park. The problem is that I don't think this will satisfy the players of the game. Nothing frustrates an adventure gamer more than putting a big locked door in front of them that can't be opened; it's not an effective way of saying "really, you can't go here," because it looks like a challenge and they will keep trying. And some people will go through the whole game thinking that everything they're doing is toward the goal of seeing the happy couple hook up at the end, and feel ripped off when the game ends and they don't. I'm not sure how to address this.

[Vel]

One of the best love stories ever appeared in a game is definately Runaway's. The character falls in love with a woman, of who he knows nothing about. She tries to use him at first, but then she also falls in love with him. At the end of the game, Brian gave up his studies just to be with her.

[Las Naranjas]

We really have to talk about love stories as written taking into account the the differences of the medium.

as interesting as the tensions were in the first two GK games, there wasn't that much that couldn't have been achieved in film or text.

GK3 had more elements there, since much of the relationship could be divulged from comments made only on the impetus of the player (looking at things mainly)

and DG, on that note, are you one of the people who became absorbed in True Love. There too the impetus is on the relations rather than the hentai.

[Ghost]

i say legend of kyrandia 2, hand of fate. that's a nice approach: you  (playing  zanthia) meet a guy who is the typical handsome, clumsy boaster.first they don't like each other but then zanthia has to save him (marco) a couple of times. finally she admits that she somewhat likes him, and in the end, they fall for each other (and save the world of course)
the clever thing is that, even though  you cannot really chose if zanthia loves marco or not, they fit. both are magicians,both try to save the world, and there are several chapters where you can either save marco or leave him in a sticky situation (he'll somehow manage to break free by himself). it's not much interaction, okay, buti found it quite a nice touch.

[DGMacphee]

Narangas, I'd say True Love would have to be my second favourite anime adventure (which isn't saying much on a anime adventure scale -- most are hentai garbage).

I liked True Love a lot not only because the focus was on relationship, but also on personal development.

This bring me to another point -- True Love isn't just about getting the girl. It's about improving yourself to get the girl.

[GarageGothic]

Wow, great to see how many people responded to this topic. Obviously I'm not the only one thinking about this.

Cerulean, I don't know what genre/mood you want for your game - but if it's even remotely serious, why don't you just have the npc show that she isn't interested? Unless you're playing off the sexual tension (Mulder/Scully style) I don't see why the player shouldn't accept this, and I'm not sure why he would even consider the possibility unless you somehow insinuate it. After all, this isn't Larry and the player character surely has more important goals than to "bag the babe"?

Too many movies throw in a romance just to satisfy a certain segment of the audience - the worst example that comes to mind being From Hell - and I think it's pretty terrible that we assume that anything romantic or sexual will happen just because you put a male and a female character in the same movie. In other words - If it's not necessary for the story or the characters, keep romance out of it.

I haven't played much hentai (it seems to me that you just click through the options until you hit the right one - and when you do, something entirely different happens than what you anticipated) but I assume that most of the games are "quests" for some girl that ends when you finally get her? Am I right? Anyway, as an additional question for my first post: Do you think that the player character and the npc should only get together at the end of the game, or could this happen in the middle of the game (and I don't mean Larry-style: "sleep with her, then on to the next conquest")? How do you imagine that their relationship as a couple (as opposed to just dating) could be told in a game? And how could it be used in telling the story?

Also, how do you feel about sex scenes in games? There haven't been too many within mainstream gaming (had there been a single one in LucasArts' games?) and often they have been rather embarassing. Either trying too hard to be naughty (Larry) or ridiculously chaste (Codename: Iceman come to mind). Some of the FMV games came pretty close - GK2 had at least the prelude to an erotic scene, and the Phantasmagoria games both contained pretty explicit sexual sequences.
I thought Phantasmagoria 2 was based too much on sex - even though it was part of the plot - it just seemed like a bad exploitation movie. But the sex-turned-into-rape scene in Phantasmagoria 1 on the other hand was in my opinion very effective in a dramatic sense - it was the first time you really understood how Don's personality had changed. And it was handled in a pretty mature way, unlike the cheap S&M in P2.

One of the reasons I'm asking, is that the main character in my game is a lesbian, and her love interest is a woman (maybe we could start another topic on gay characters in games ). At one point in the game, there is a chance of them getting intimate, and I would like to show at least a bit more than just a kiss, but in a tasteful manner. I'd hate it, if people thought that I chose a lesbian character, just to be able to show two women in bed. But on the other hand, I don't want it too seem like I WON'T allow them to be physically intimate, just because they're gay. I don't even want the scene to seem erotic to the player - there are too many psychological levels in how they end up together for it to be titillating, but I suppose that some people might not be able to see beyond the nudity. Should I remove this scene entirely from the game?

Any thoughts or advice would be greatly appreciated

[n3tgraph]

ugh...

I was going to read all these posts... but I can't get myself to it
all these long posts

anyways making love scenes in games are always hard imo. You don't want your adventure to turn in to a barbie game or somethin'

There where the most of us want to create a rather funny OR a rather scary / violent game, real romantic is very hard to implement

[GarageGothic]

My game IS scary (not very violent or graphic, but quite unsettling in a David Lynch sort of way), and that's why I want to use romantic scenes as a counterpoint to the horror. Also, there is little to be scared about unless you actually care about the characters. As for funny - well, I don't do funny

[DGMacphee]

My point of view is this:

As long as your characters have depth and feel like actual people, rather than one-dimensional characters, people will forgive you for anything.

Even having two women in bed together.

Just make sure they have a sense of identity -- game players are smart enough to realise the intent of an author.

If you focus upon story and character, the player will sense that.

If you focus upon sex, the player will also sense that.

As for showing intimacy, you don't have to show it in a physical sense -- try and use subtlety, like using a symbol to represent their relationship.

Most importantly: if you feel comfortable with your game, then who's to say you're wrong?

[Las Naranjas]

On your favour, I downloaded Sakura.

4 1/2 hours later I looked at the clock.

These things are damn absorbing

[GarageGothic]

DGMacphee, I agree completely with what you say. I think the element of identity and motivation is absolutely crucial. I understand what you're saying about using a symbol to represent the relationship, and I think it's a good idea, but I can't really imagine how it should be done (that stupid snowman or whatever it was in Phantasmagoria keeps popping into my mind). Could you possible give an example?

I'll give you a brief description of the events leading to the love scene in my game without too many spoilers (although I'll doubt you remember them when the game is finished, in 2010 with any luck ) If you have any idea how it could be toned down, please say.

Something bad happens to the player character, and her next door neighbour (the love interest) finds her nearly catatonic, sobbing and shivering on the floor of her apartment. She holds her close, trying to comfort her, strokes her hair, whispers comforting words to her. Depending on how involved you've gotten with her (you can talk to her, come to her party and go on a date with her at one point, but all these are optional), she may softly kiss the player character, who starts to awaken from her trance, returning the kisses. The neighbour brings her to her own apartment (the lock to the PC's apartment having been broken and the whole place being a mess). She brings her to the bedroom, helping her undress, and lies down in the bed with her, still hugging, kissing, stroking.

It's more an act of comforting, of helping to forget than it is a real sexual act. It ties in with the theme of the game about reality and illusion, this being the physical side of the self, which the main character has been escaping from into her world of old movies, always watched alone.

I agree that the scene as written could probably be shorter, and you would still get the point. And it didn't have to show nudity - I'm not sure that it will. But I wanted it to be slow and purely visual - no words (we must imagine what's being whispered) - and I wanted to show each beat, each change of emotion. I also think it's important for the to have a real bodily presence, as this is her first time of being physically intimate with the neighbour, and with anyone for quite a long time. It should be a huge contrast to her usually very intellectual and cerebral personality.

But I suppose that in the end, most people will just say: "cool, two chicks making out!"

[DGMacphee]

Las:
I agree -- At first, I thought it'd be a typical hentai game, but I took a recommendation from Underdogs and downloaded it.

Boy, was it a great game.

See if you can get Ruri (The Rei Ayanami look-a-like) -- she has the best ending.



GarageGothic:
Perhaps there's an inventory item that links the two characters together in an intimate way.

Therefore, think of objects related to imtimacy.

Because intimacy isn't used very often in games, I'll demonstrate with a different symbolic theme, trust

Have you played the game Grim Fandango?

There's a part in year 3 where Manny has to win the trust of Meche by delivering her a gun, which leads to a classic line from the game:

"A relationship without trust is like a gun without a bullet."

The gun acts as a symbol of trust in the relationship (psychoanalysts can read whatever else they want to -- I choose not to, though ).

Back to intimacy.

Think of objects that link two people intimately.

Photographs.

Letters.

An old antique that one person bought for the other.

Once you have that symbol, integrate it into later events to show how the relationshop develops.

If we're talking about a physical or sexual attraction, here's an idea:

The neightbour give a photograph of herself to the main character.

The main character leaves the photograph in a prominent place in her lounge room, like on her mantle.

But she can't stop thinking about that photograph, no matter how she tries.

At certain stages of the game, she finds building urges for the photograph of her neighbour.

If you try to leave her lounge room at this stage, she'll say "I have an urge to see that photo again!"

The only way the player can progress at this point is if you click on the photo on the mantle.

The main character takes it and retreats to the bathroom.

The view fades to black.

A few seconds later, the view fades up again.

She exits the bathroom and replaces the photograph.

You can now continue.

Now, before people start telling me what a sick fuck I am, I'd better explain the method behind the madness.

I don't know if it fits the context of the game you're writing -- you said it was a scary game, but you'd need a more romantic scene to balance the unsettling bits -- but I think a scene like this would underscore how fractured the main character is.

Not only that, but the photo acts as an image for the player character, thus expanding upon yout image/reality theme.

Perhaps later, something else happens -- the relationship with the neighbour becomes strained and she finds out she can't please herself in the bathroom with the photograph.

Maybe someone else can catch her in the act -- and this someone can use this against her.

Maybe at some stage the photograph goes missing -- how does the player character react.

This way you illustrate the sexual relationship between the two characters, but you don't show any actual sex.

There's a saying about film that goes "It's not what's said, but what's not said" -- the same goes for adventure games.

The less you actually show and the more you subtely hint, the player will understand that you're trying to focus more on the relationship than lesbian sex.

If you want, I can give you a better idea of a symbolic relationship if you send a private message -- just send me what actually happens in your story and I'll try to think of a better example that fits your game.

----------------

Edit: Even better idea

If you were looking for something more romantic, have the two female characters send photgraphs to each other.

The neighbour leaves a photograph of herself in the player's mailbox, with a note to leave one of the main character in the neighbour's mailbox.

So you have to take a photo of yourself and leave it in her mailbox.

Then she leaves another one, perhaps in a bit of a pose.

Then you leave one.

Then she leaves one.

And it becomes a game they play -- each leaving cute pictures in each other's mailbox.

Perhaps it gets to the part, where they're sending naked pictures to each other -- thus, they hint at a sexual relationship without blantantly showing actual sex.


On another idea:

The neighbour could be a photographer, and ask the main character to be her model to help with an assignment.

She snaps photographs of her until she's not wearing any clothing.

And just leave it at that -- the neighbour thanks her for helping her and the main character puts her clothes back on.

The scene doesn't end with sex, but hints at the sexual relationship -- the two women could laugh and have a great time with a model-photographer relaitonship.



It's strange for me, as a man to be saying stuff like this -- it'd probably have more validity if I were a woman.

But I can only give ideas based upon what I know.

Remember that symbols aren't enough -- you also have to make your characters convinving and multi-dimensional.

But stuff like this will give your game way more cred than a Joe Eszterhas film (he was the guy who wrote a number of sexual thrillers -- Basic Instinct, Sliver, Jade, etc -- his films are pretty lame, relying upon cheap lesbain scenes to hype up his work -- and his characters are pretty stock too)

Whatever you do, don't end up like Eszterhas -- he's a hack!

[GarageGothic]

DGMacphee, you're a GENIUS!!!!

Thank you so much. I hadn't even thought about the possibility of the player character relating to the love interest through an image. That's just perfect. Fits in exactly with the themes. You have no idea how much your post inspired me. It even relates to some other details I had planned (the player character telling the neighbour that she looks like a silent movie star, which she has a poster of in her apartment. That she somehow admires her from afar like the long gone stars she sees on the movie screen). I'll go home and think some more about this. I'll write something down and send it to you in a few days. I'd love to hear your ideas.

Dude, you just made my day! Thank you so much.

Edit: I just read your edit. I don't know about the nude photography thing, but I'll think about it. I'm open to all ideas. But the idea of leaving photographs struck a chord. I have a puzzle involving a photo automat, and it would be nice if it could serve a double fuction. And yes, I am familiar with Mr. Eszterhas (three-million-dollar hack!), actually I'm currently viewing some of his movies (Basic Instinct and Showgirls) for my film studies thesis on representations of bisexuality in films. So yes, I'm well aware of the risks of misusing lesbianism as a cheap effect.

[DGMacphee]

Thanks -- that's the first time I've been called a genius without someone adding "at being a dickhead".

BTW, Did you read my edit additions at the bottom of my previous post?

I wrote then with more romantic ideas.

[GarageGothic]

DGMacphee, I'm working on the story outline, I'll send it as soon as it's done. (I hope you've read MY edit as well )

But to return to the topic after our short lesbian interlude, I'd like to hear people's thoughts on how you get the player (as well as the player character) to really care about an NPC, maybe even fall in love with them. But, to keep sexual attraction out of the discussion, let's just stick to friendship for now. What kind of personalities make for good NPC-friends? And how do you put depth into the relationship? Very often, the PCs in adventure games are opportunistic, they make friends with whoever can assist them in their quest (and often it's rather obvious that you only help others because the game expect you to do it for getting something in return).

Background is one way. I believed in the relationship between Gabe and Mosely in GK1 and 3 right from the start, because they obviously had a past together. Gabe knew all the right things to say to annoy Mosely. But all this refers back to something that happened before the game started, out of the players grasp. How do you make friends during gameplay with a character that the PC has never met before? How do you turn friendship and making friends into interaction?
I think that being helpful to everyone you meet (King's Quest and Quest for Glory series) has been overdone - you do it because you expect something in return anyway, if not a service or an item, then at least some kind of honor from the game (doing good deeds ALWAYS pay off in adventure games, and you know it, even if it's just saving a mouse from a cat). There's too little cynicism in games these days Also, this constant aiding of everyone around you devaluates the character's true friendships.
Maybe we should turn it around, let the player be in trouble and have some nice person help them. It would then be up to the player whether or not he would return the favor and create a basis for a relationship?

Any ideas on this? Please feel free to refer back to the discussion on love if it helps. I just changed it to friendship to simplify matters.

[Soft, Gooey, Delicious.]

I'd like to hear people's thoughts on how you get the player (as well as the player character) to really care about an NPC, maybe even fall in love with them.

I, and I suspect, most people, do not want to fall in love with a character.

[GarageGothic]

That's why it's so hard to get them to do it, Rabbit

[SSH]

I'd like to hear people's thoughts on how you get the player (as well as the player character) to really care about an NPC, maybe even fall in love with them.

Obviously, big bosoms....

Seriously, though, look at how they make you fall in love with a character in a movie... sympathy, empathy, physical attraction, intelligence, indignation against a third party...

Take a look at the most successful movie of all time, Titanic. One of the reasons it made such a vast pile of cash was the sympathy of the female part of the audience with the DiCaprio character. They went back to see it again and again becuase some part of them hoped that maybe this next time, he would survive. The best stories are tragedies. So if you want that the player at least understands the character's falling in love, there must be somebody doing something to the love interest that they should not be getting away with.

Beware that tragedy isn't just tacked on, however. In Titanic, the tragedy of Jack's drowning is a part of the inevitable tragedy of the Titanic sinking and thousands dying. Compare with Armageddon, where the tragedy of Bruce Willis dying wasn't really necessary to the plot and they saved the world and most of the astronauts in the end anyway so it didn't really work as a tragedy. On the other hand, Aerosmith are better than Celine Dion...

Now follow the inevitable Leo-envy jokes about the tragedy in Titanic being his acting, etc....

[DGMacphee]

For romance between main character and NPC, I suggest you look at Seasons of Sakura -- the romance/relationship varies depending upon the choices you make and it should give you some ideas.

I also think the key to developing relationship in fiction (or real life) is about learning different aspects of other individuals -- In SoS you learn a lot about the different classmates, and thus the relationship between you and them becomes deeper (which is one of the main goals of the game because your main character starts out as an isolated person).

Not only that, but a relationship (particularly a romantic one) increases your own knowledge about who you are -- And the main character in SoS develops an understanding of himself through the choices you make.

There are even times when the main character of SoS stops and suddenly realises something about himself, just by talking to another human being.

I think relationships (particularly romantic ones) are about learning, both through others and through yourself.

Continuing on from this, if you're looking for just friendship between characters, examine Grim Fandango, especially the way Manny and Glottis hook up and share the adventure -- This should also give you some ideas.

In fact there are a lot of "best friend" relationships in games, and I suggest the following:

Manny and Glottis in Grim Fandango
Shuji and Makoto from Seasons of Sakura
Gabriel Knight and Mosley from Gabirel Knight
Bernard and Green Tentacle in Day of The Tentacle
Laverne and Dead Cousin Ted in Day of The Tentacle
Sam and Max (obviously) in Sam and Max Hit The Road

There's also a similar "friend" to the main character, which I call the "Guru", who acts as a guide or father/mother figure to the main character:

Sal for Manny in GF
Kyoko-sensei for Shuji in SoS
Wolfgang for Gabriel Knight in GK: Sins of the Fathers
Doctor Fred for Bernard, Hoagie, and Laverne in DOTT

I don't know if Sam and Max have a "guru" character, so I'll replace it with another famous example:

The Voodoo Lady for Guybrush in all Monkey Island games

Most important: the characters I've stated above (romance characters, best friends, and "gurus") are merely archetypes (in other words, I've only defined relationships) -- it's up to you to turn them in to believable characters.

To do that, make up history for each charcter -- their history motivates them and influences the decisions that you make.

For example, what if you found out one character killed your father in the past -- How would you, as the player, react to this situation?

That's the part of the chanenge of an adventure game -- to test your emotions and decisions.

Will they lead you to success or death?

[GarageGothic]

DGMacphee, I unzipped Sakura when I got home yesterday (had it in my abandonware collection, but it took me a while to find it, because I have them sorted by company, and I had no idea who'd made it), but it wouldn't run on XP. As for Grim Fandango, I've only played it one time, back when it came out ('twas Christmas, don't recall what year anymore). I have installed it, but it acts up under XP as well (crashed the moment Glottis was about to come out of his office). Will try them both out on Win98 tonight.

SuperScotthishHero. I agree with what you say, although Titanic probably isn't the best example, not just because I hate the movie, but because the tragedy comes at the end. The question should be how James Cameron makes the audience sympathize with Leo BEFORE the ship hits the iceberg.

But it leads on to another question: How should friends be used in game? It may be effective to kill the characters best friend off near the end to motivate him, but won't we see it coming? Obviously friends can help the PC or they can cause problems (having to rescue them etc.) but can they somehow add to the drama without being sacrificed for the sake of the story?

[DGMacphee]

Yeah, Sakura is a poor foo' when it comes to XP.

I recently bought a new computer with XP and was cringing in angst at the incompatibility with Sakura.

Luckily, I've still got my old P133 with Win98!

As for friend relationship, try examining the examples in my post above.

They might give you some clue as to how to implement the friend relationship.

As with everything, I'm never right, because I believe everyone needs to adapt what they learn into their own methods -- learn from the top shelf games, like the title above.

Find out what makes great relationships, in your eyes.

And I'm always willing to help you, if you need a particular viewpoint on story elements.

[Soft, Gooey, Delicious.]

That's why it's so hard to get them to do it, Rabbit

Perhaps you shouldn't try to do it. I don't think the world needs any more socially maladjusted geeks running around in love with computer games. I think it's fine to depict people in love for the purpose of the story, but don't try to make people fall in love with a fiction. They do enough of that when they fall in love with actual people.

[TerranRich]

Cerulean: I have an idea. use the fact that the player will keep persisting to pursue the woman to your advantage. Maybe some action you would expecct the player to take while trying to pursue her, instead causes somethign else to happen, ,something crucial to the continuation of gameplay. I dunno, just as idea. This way the player indirectly causes the game to continue by doing what he thinks he should do.

Garage/Rabbit: The closest example I can think of is Lara Croft, but that's more like "falling in lust."

In my game, there are basically two paths you can take. If you rescue a girl from a prison, she follows you through a little bit of the game, where you two talk and something sparks between you. if you don't (or aren't able to...i won't say more), then you don't meet her until the end where she accuses you of a crime...therefore nothing sparks.

However, I think the sequel will now have a romantic nonlinear plot, thanks to you guys! There's inspiration around every corner!

[SSH]

Actually, I've just remembered Wing Commander 3: you flirt with two women but eventually you have to choose between the pilot lass and the engineer (played by an porn actress!) or neither... if you choose the pilot, you have to configure your spaceship yourself for the rest fo the game. If you choose the engineer, you lose a potential wingman. If you choose neither, I dunno...

You could make a love triangle, and your final choice when given an ultimatum would determine the way you solved puzzles (i.e choose the really tall girl and she can get something from a high shelf for you... choose the short bird and she can stand on your shoulders.... )

[DGMacphee]

Rabbit:
What about people who read romance novels?

Romance novels, like games with romance in them, are merely an escape -- something we all need every now and then.

Love in computer games is merely an escape, just the same as pretending to be a hitman (In Hitman) or pretending to lead an army (in Command & Conquer).

Why shouldn't people fall in love with characters in games?

They become part of what inspires us.

The distinction I think you are trying to make is where it reaches the point of obsession, or as Terran said lusting after a character -- which is more so using, say, Lara Croft as wank-material.

That leaves people as socially maladjusted geeks.

But what we are talking about here is understanding another entity, even if ficitional.

Romance never left anyone maladjusted.

Obession does.

But never romance.


SSH:
That's a good point -- I forgot about WC3.

That had a very well-done romance angle -- especially the decision making process and cosequences.

And if you choose neither, you end the game with no woman by your side, a hero alone, floating toward home.

[Soft, Gooey, Delicious.]

Rabbit:
What about people who read romance novels?

I think the fact they are reading a romance novel speaks for itself...
Besides, they don't read them to fall in love with the characters, but to see the drama of love unfold. These two are quite different.

[DGMacphee]

I don't share the same view.

I know quite a number of women that have fallen in love with heroes from different books.

It's more than just watching the drama unfold.

It's placing yourself in a position, partially as a means of escape.

Of course there are other things involved, such as meaning and message, social relevance, psychoanalytic meaning, etc.

But these things are just as important as using a novel as a means to escape and join in on the adventure.

That's the power of imagination.



But I'm a romantic and lover at heart, so my view is very different from yours.

I can understand what you say about detaching yourself from a piece of literature -- and in a lot of ways, you are right.

But sometimes I just need to feel something, and I'd rather attach myself to a great story or character, that to remain emotionally distant -- I've learnt that lesson so well.

I'd rather let my heart fill with all things: novels, films, nature, my family, and of course, my girlfriend.

All of these are my loves, whether it be finding a connection to a character from a book/film/game, to feeling sunlight upon my body, to spending Christmas with the folks, or to fall asleep on the couch with my Rene -- I'm so in love with it all.

Simple pleasures.

And not being afraid to feel something.

That's what makes me human.

Edit: It's a difficult view to explain -- you are probably wondering what the hell I'm babbling about.

[Scid]

Sacrificing things for each other is where it's at. That could either be something very small, such as spending some time with her when you'd rather do something else - or something big and heroic, such as choosing to save her first, even if there's a timebomb about to go off.

Of course, these are very stupid examples. You really shouldn't want to be doing something else, in the first example. And the second example is just plain stupid because it's so unrealistic.

A better example would be if you were in a fight with your girlfriend, and you know you're right. Yet she continues to argue, and eventually begins to cry. Now instead of trying to explain the situation, you comfort her first - showing that you care about her feelings and sorrow, rather than trying to prove your point.

I think a practical way for your character to show he cares about his girldfriend would be to mention her once in a while when he narrates. Such as "I remember when me an Natalia first went to this bar. We got thrown out because we threw peanuts at the waiter. We made things up later, though and now the owner is a good friend." or "Natalia would love this painting. Personally, I think it's a bit over the top, but I can understand why she likes it." - Don't do it too often, though, or your character will appear settled. And that's not good either.

[Las Naranjas]

I think that one big difference is that DG loves humaity in general, despite it's flaws.


But something that comes through strongly in Sakura is the capacity for loss. Apart from the uber protagonistical feeling of "I did that" that you get in any game [except Syberia unfortunately] (My favourite example is how hard it is to leave the swamplin in Simon1, despite the ludicrous context), this is reinforced by the multiple plot lines. Now you know there is an alternate action to the one that you've done, and if you lose the girl, you know it's because of something you [thats YOU you] did, even if it was as simple as failing to think about them at the right time.

and now I've wandered off it to the area of this article I've been struggling with. I'm tempted to include Sakura and other titles and write the artivle oley on how interactivity makes the profane sublime.

Because in all honesty, even the best games rarely have titles that rise above pulp or comic books (not to denegrate those two mediums ).

---edit---
I could be argued that Sakura is just a graphical "choose you own adventure". I can avoid that, or just talk about True Love.

[DGMacphee]

Scid:
Sacrifice -- good point.

Narangas:
Guilty as charged -- I wouldn't have humanity any other way.

The flaws are like the metphorical sprinkles on the donut.

And yes, I felt a sense of lost when playing Sakura too.

I don't know if you've gotten there yet, but try the ending where you end up with Ruri (the Rei Ayanami-look-a-like) -- that's the most touching ending.

As for calling it a graphical "choose your own adventures", I say if it works and you enjoy it or learn something out of it, then who's to degrade it for you?

[Soft, Gooey, Delicious.]

It's a difficult view to explain -- you are probably wondering what the hell I'm babbling about.

No, I get where you're coming from. Emotion is central to just about all artwork. I'm not saying don't love things though. I'm saying, don't fall in love with characters and don't try to make others do the same. The whole idea of a character is that it's a construct. It's designed as a representation of some aspects of a person. An actual person has so much depth, i fail to see how you can confuse the two.

[Las Naranjas]

DG- That was the first one I got, even before you spoke of it.
But there's a similar sense of loss when you don't chase her, even though you win.

But what absolutely fascinates me about adventures is the fact that most of the divergent storylines are far from what you'd call profound literature. But there's no denying that they have an emotional impact that I haven't found in most genres.
Interactivity increases the impact so much I've been writing thousands of words trying to get an adequet impression of that in my major work for 4 unit english.

Similarily, many of the endings in Bladerunner had a far greater impact on methan the film, even though the film was infinitely better written, and the themes were explored much more skillfully.

Fucking hell, melodrama can rip your heart out in an Adventure.

--edit--
Even when there's no choice I should add. Even if it's the only way to continue the game, you doing it (as such) increases the impact.

[Cerulean]

I think you're drawing a line too sharp when you take it so literally. No, the things we feel for fictional characters are not on the same level as the things we feel for real people, but they're still valid feelings and serve their own purpose. When in some special way I fall in love with a character in a story, I'm not "wasting" my emotions on something that isn't real; it's more like practice, building up the muscles of caring so that they are usable when I need them.

And, as you have noted, there is a lot of false love in the real world. To be honest, there are a lot of people in the real world who are too shallow to be real people. So when a character, whose thoughts and motives are truly an open book, becomes deep enough to care about (and as creators know, they can take on a life and reality of their own sometimes), it's just helping people learn how to love someone for who they really are, to graduate from "What about that one? Her body looks pretty enough to serve the purpose" to "I would like to know someone with a mind and personality like ___'s."

[DGMacphee]

Rabbit:
Like I said, that's more obession than love.

It's very similar to stalking someone because you "love" her or him.

And also think a lot of fictional characters have depth.

In every character on the page, we see overselves -- that is what gives them depth.


Narangas:
Ditto on Blade Runner.