Romance between game characters, can it be done?

[Las Naranjas]

On your favour, I downloaded Sakura.

4 1/2 hours later I looked at the clock.

These things are damn absorbing

[GarageGothic]

DGMacphee, I agree completely with what you say. I think the element of identity and motivation is absolutely crucial. I understand what you're saying about using a symbol to represent the relationship, and I think it's a good idea, but I can't really imagine how it should be done (that stupid snowman or whatever it was in Phantasmagoria keeps popping into my mind). Could you possible give an example?

I'll give you a brief description of the events leading to the love scene in my game without too many spoilers (although I'll doubt you remember them when the game is finished, in 2010 with any luck ) If you have any idea how it could be toned down, please say.

Something bad happens to the player character, and her next door neighbour (the love interest) finds her nearly catatonic, sobbing and shivering on the floor of her apartment. She holds her close, trying to comfort her, strokes her hair, whispers comforting words to her. Depending on how involved you've gotten with her (you can talk to her, come to her party and go on a date with her at one point, but all these are optional), she may softly kiss the player character, who starts to awaken from her trance, returning the kisses. The neighbour brings her to her own apartment (the lock to the PC's apartment having been broken and the whole place being a mess). She brings her to the bedroom, helping her undress, and lies down in the bed with her, still hugging, kissing, stroking.

It's more an act of comforting, of helping to forget than it is a real sexual act. It ties in with the theme of the game about reality and illusion, this being the physical side of the self, which the main character has been escaping from into her world of old movies, always watched alone.

I agree that the scene as written could probably be shorter, and you would still get the point. And it didn't have to show nudity - I'm not sure that it will. But I wanted it to be slow and purely visual - no words (we must imagine what's being whispered) - and I wanted to show each beat, each change of emotion. I also think it's important for the to have a real bodily presence, as this is her first time of being physically intimate with the neighbour, and with anyone for quite a long time. It should be a huge contrast to her usually very intellectual and cerebral personality.

But I suppose that in the end, most people will just say: "cool, two chicks making out!"

[DGMacphee]

Las:
I agree -- At first, I thought it'd be a typical hentai game, but I took a recommendation from Underdogs and downloaded it.

Boy, was it a great game.

See if you can get Ruri (The Rei Ayanami look-a-like) -- she has the best ending.



GarageGothic:
Perhaps there's an inventory item that links the two characters together in an intimate way.

Therefore, think of objects related to imtimacy.

Because intimacy isn't used very often in games, I'll demonstrate with a different symbolic theme, trust

Have you played the game Grim Fandango?

There's a part in year 3 where Manny has to win the trust of Meche by delivering her a gun, which leads to a classic line from the game:

"A relationship without trust is like a gun without a bullet."

The gun acts as a symbol of trust in the relationship (psychoanalysts can read whatever else they want to -- I choose not to, though ).

Back to intimacy.

Think of objects that link two people intimately.

Photographs.

Letters.

An old antique that one person bought for the other.

Once you have that symbol, integrate it into later events to show how the relationshop develops.

If we're talking about a physical or sexual attraction, here's an idea:

The neightbour give a photograph of herself to the main character.

The main character leaves the photograph in a prominent place in her lounge room, like on her mantle.

But she can't stop thinking about that photograph, no matter how she tries.

At certain stages of the game, she finds building urges for the photograph of her neighbour.

If you try to leave her lounge room at this stage, she'll say "I have an urge to see that photo again!"

The only way the player can progress at this point is if you click on the photo on the mantle.

The main character takes it and retreats to the bathroom.

The view fades to black.

A few seconds later, the view fades up again.

She exits the bathroom and replaces the photograph.

You can now continue.

Now, before people start telling me what a sick fuck I am, I'd better explain the method behind the madness.

I don't know if it fits the context of the game you're writing -- you said it was a scary game, but you'd need a more romantic scene to balance the unsettling bits -- but I think a scene like this would underscore how fractured the main character is.

Not only that, but the photo acts as an image for the player character, thus expanding upon yout image/reality theme.

Perhaps later, something else happens -- the relationship with the neighbour becomes strained and she finds out she can't please herself in the bathroom with the photograph.

Maybe someone else can catch her in the act -- and this someone can use this against her.

Maybe at some stage the photograph goes missing -- how does the player character react.

This way you illustrate the sexual relationship between the two characters, but you don't show any actual sex.

There's a saying about film that goes "It's not what's said, but what's not said" -- the same goes for adventure games.

The less you actually show and the more you subtely hint, the player will understand that you're trying to focus more on the relationship than lesbian sex.

If you want, I can give you a better idea of a symbolic relationship if you send a private message -- just send me what actually happens in your story and I'll try to think of a better example that fits your game.

----------------

Edit: Even better idea

If you were looking for something more romantic, have the two female characters send photgraphs to each other.

The neighbour leaves a photograph of herself in the player's mailbox, with a note to leave one of the main character in the neighbour's mailbox.

So you have to take a photo of yourself and leave it in her mailbox.

Then she leaves another one, perhaps in a bit of a pose.

Then you leave one.

Then she leaves one.

And it becomes a game they play -- each leaving cute pictures in each other's mailbox.

Perhaps it gets to the part, where they're sending naked pictures to each other -- thus, they hint at a sexual relationship without blantantly showing actual sex.


On another idea:

The neighbour could be a photographer, and ask the main character to be her model to help with an assignment.

She snaps photographs of her until she's not wearing any clothing.

And just leave it at that -- the neighbour thanks her for helping her and the main character puts her clothes back on.

The scene doesn't end with sex, but hints at the sexual relationship -- the two women could laugh and have a great time with a model-photographer relaitonship.



It's strange for me, as a man to be saying stuff like this -- it'd probably have more validity if I were a woman.

But I can only give ideas based upon what I know.

Remember that symbols aren't enough -- you also have to make your characters convinving and multi-dimensional.

But stuff like this will give your game way more cred than a Joe Eszterhas film (he was the guy who wrote a number of sexual thrillers -- Basic Instinct, Sliver, Jade, etc -- his films are pretty lame, relying upon cheap lesbain scenes to hype up his work -- and his characters are pretty stock too)

Whatever you do, don't end up like Eszterhas -- he's a hack!

[GarageGothic]

DGMacphee, you're a GENIUS!!!!

Thank you so much. I hadn't even thought about the possibility of the player character relating to the love interest through an image. That's just perfect. Fits in exactly with the themes. You have no idea how much your post inspired me. It even relates to some other details I had planned (the player character telling the neighbour that she looks like a silent movie star, which she has a poster of in her apartment. That she somehow admires her from afar like the long gone stars she sees on the movie screen). I'll go home and think some more about this. I'll write something down and send it to you in a few days. I'd love to hear your ideas.

Dude, you just made my day! Thank you so much.

Edit: I just read your edit. I don't know about the nude photography thing, but I'll think about it. I'm open to all ideas. But the idea of leaving photographs struck a chord. I have a puzzle involving a photo automat, and it would be nice if it could serve a double fuction. And yes, I am familiar with Mr. Eszterhas (three-million-dollar hack!), actually I'm currently viewing some of his movies (Basic Instinct and Showgirls) for my film studies thesis on representations of bisexuality in films. So yes, I'm well aware of the risks of misusing lesbianism as a cheap effect.

[DGMacphee]

Thanks -- that's the first time I've been called a genius without someone adding "at being a dickhead".

BTW, Did you read my edit additions at the bottom of my previous post?

I wrote then with more romantic ideas.

[GarageGothic]

DGMacphee, I'm working on the story outline, I'll send it as soon as it's done. (I hope you've read MY edit as well )

But to return to the topic after our short lesbian interlude, I'd like to hear people's thoughts on how you get the player (as well as the player character) to really care about an NPC, maybe even fall in love with them. But, to keep sexual attraction out of the discussion, let's just stick to friendship for now. What kind of personalities make for good NPC-friends? And how do you put depth into the relationship? Very often, the PCs in adventure games are opportunistic, they make friends with whoever can assist them in their quest (and often it's rather obvious that you only help others because the game expect you to do it for getting something in return).

Background is one way. I believed in the relationship between Gabe and Mosely in GK1 and 3 right from the start, because they obviously had a past together. Gabe knew all the right things to say to annoy Mosely. But all this refers back to something that happened before the game started, out of the players grasp. How do you make friends during gameplay with a character that the PC has never met before? How do you turn friendship and making friends into interaction?
I think that being helpful to everyone you meet (King's Quest and Quest for Glory series) has been overdone - you do it because you expect something in return anyway, if not a service or an item, then at least some kind of honor from the game (doing good deeds ALWAYS pay off in adventure games, and you know it, even if it's just saving a mouse from a cat). There's too little cynicism in games these days Also, this constant aiding of everyone around you devaluates the character's true friendships.
Maybe we should turn it around, let the player be in trouble and have some nice person help them. It would then be up to the player whether or not he would return the favor and create a basis for a relationship?

Any ideas on this? Please feel free to refer back to the discussion on love if it helps. I just changed it to friendship to simplify matters.

[Soft, Gooey, Delicious.]

I'd like to hear people's thoughts on how you get the player (as well as the player character) to really care about an NPC, maybe even fall in love with them.

I, and I suspect, most people, do not want to fall in love with a character.

[GarageGothic]

That's why it's so hard to get them to do it, Rabbit

[SSH]

I'd like to hear people's thoughts on how you get the player (as well as the player character) to really care about an NPC, maybe even fall in love with them.

Obviously, big bosoms....

Seriously, though, look at how they make you fall in love with a character in a movie... sympathy, empathy, physical attraction, intelligence, indignation against a third party...

Take a look at the most successful movie of all time, Titanic. One of the reasons it made such a vast pile of cash was the sympathy of the female part of the audience with the DiCaprio character. They went back to see it again and again becuase some part of them hoped that maybe this next time, he would survive. The best stories are tragedies. So if you want that the player at least understands the character's falling in love, there must be somebody doing something to the love interest that they should not be getting away with.

Beware that tragedy isn't just tacked on, however. In Titanic, the tragedy of Jack's drowning is a part of the inevitable tragedy of the Titanic sinking and thousands dying. Compare with Armageddon, where the tragedy of Bruce Willis dying wasn't really necessary to the plot and they saved the world and most of the astronauts in the end anyway so it didn't really work as a tragedy. On the other hand, Aerosmith are better than Celine Dion...

Now follow the inevitable Leo-envy jokes about the tragedy in Titanic being his acting, etc....

[DGMacphee]

For romance between main character and NPC, I suggest you look at Seasons of Sakura -- the romance/relationship varies depending upon the choices you make and it should give you some ideas.

I also think the key to developing relationship in fiction (or real life) is about learning different aspects of other individuals -- In SoS you learn a lot about the different classmates, and thus the relationship between you and them becomes deeper (which is one of the main goals of the game because your main character starts out as an isolated person).

Not only that, but a relationship (particularly a romantic one) increases your own knowledge about who you are -- And the main character in SoS develops an understanding of himself through the choices you make.

There are even times when the main character of SoS stops and suddenly realises something about himself, just by talking to another human being.

I think relationships (particularly romantic ones) are about learning, both through others and through yourself.

Continuing on from this, if you're looking for just friendship between characters, examine Grim Fandango, especially the way Manny and Glottis hook up and share the adventure -- This should also give you some ideas.

In fact there are a lot of "best friend" relationships in games, and I suggest the following:

Manny and Glottis in Grim Fandango
Shuji and Makoto from Seasons of Sakura
Gabriel Knight and Mosley from Gabirel Knight
Bernard and Green Tentacle in Day of The Tentacle
Laverne and Dead Cousin Ted in Day of The Tentacle
Sam and Max (obviously) in Sam and Max Hit The Road

There's also a similar "friend" to the main character, which I call the "Guru", who acts as a guide or father/mother figure to the main character:

Sal for Manny in GF
Kyoko-sensei for Shuji in SoS
Wolfgang for Gabriel Knight in GK: Sins of the Fathers
Doctor Fred for Bernard, Hoagie, and Laverne in DOTT

I don't know if Sam and Max have a "guru" character, so I'll replace it with another famous example:

The Voodoo Lady for Guybrush in all Monkey Island games

Most important: the characters I've stated above (romance characters, best friends, and "gurus") are merely archetypes (in other words, I've only defined relationships) -- it's up to you to turn them in to believable characters.

To do that, make up history for each charcter -- their history motivates them and influences the decisions that you make.

For example, what if you found out one character killed your father in the past -- How would you, as the player, react to this situation?

That's the part of the chanenge of an adventure game -- to test your emotions and decisions.

Will they lead you to success or death?

[GarageGothic]

DGMacphee, I unzipped Sakura when I got home yesterday (had it in my abandonware collection, but it took me a while to find it, because I have them sorted by company, and I had no idea who'd made it), but it wouldn't run on XP. As for Grim Fandango, I've only played it one time, back when it came out ('twas Christmas, don't recall what year anymore). I have installed it, but it acts up under XP as well (crashed the moment Glottis was about to come out of his office). Will try them both out on Win98 tonight.

SuperScotthishHero. I agree with what you say, although Titanic probably isn't the best example, not just because I hate the movie, but because the tragedy comes at the end. The question should be how James Cameron makes the audience sympathize with Leo BEFORE the ship hits the iceberg.

But it leads on to another question: How should friends be used in game? It may be effective to kill the characters best friend off near the end to motivate him, but won't we see it coming? Obviously friends can help the PC or they can cause problems (having to rescue them etc.) but can they somehow add to the drama without being sacrificed for the sake of the story?

[DGMacphee]

Yeah, Sakura is a poor foo' when it comes to XP.

I recently bought a new computer with XP and was cringing in angst at the incompatibility with Sakura.

Luckily, I've still got my old P133 with Win98!

As for friend relationship, try examining the examples in my post above.

They might give you some clue as to how to implement the friend relationship.

As with everything, I'm never right, because I believe everyone needs to adapt what they learn into their own methods -- learn from the top shelf games, like the title above.

Find out what makes great relationships, in your eyes.

And I'm always willing to help you, if you need a particular viewpoint on story elements.

[Soft, Gooey, Delicious.]

That's why it's so hard to get them to do it, Rabbit

Perhaps you shouldn't try to do it. I don't think the world needs any more socially maladjusted geeks running around in love with computer games. I think it's fine to depict people in love for the purpose of the story, but don't try to make people fall in love with a fiction. They do enough of that when they fall in love with actual people.

[TerranRich]

Cerulean: I have an idea. use the fact that the player will keep persisting to pursue the woman to your advantage. Maybe some action you would expecct the player to take while trying to pursue her, instead causes somethign else to happen, ,something crucial to the continuation of gameplay. I dunno, just as idea. This way the player indirectly causes the game to continue by doing what he thinks he should do.

Garage/Rabbit: The closest example I can think of is Lara Croft, but that's more like "falling in lust."

In my game, there are basically two paths you can take. If you rescue a girl from a prison, she follows you through a little bit of the game, where you two talk and something sparks between you. if you don't (or aren't able to...i won't say more), then you don't meet her until the end where she accuses you of a crime...therefore nothing sparks.

However, I think the sequel will now have a romantic nonlinear plot, thanks to you guys! There's inspiration around every corner!

[SSH]

Actually, I've just remembered Wing Commander 3: you flirt with two women but eventually you have to choose between the pilot lass and the engineer (played by an porn actress!) or neither... if you choose the pilot, you have to configure your spaceship yourself for the rest fo the game. If you choose the engineer, you lose a potential wingman. If you choose neither, I dunno...

You could make a love triangle, and your final choice when given an ultimatum would determine the way you solved puzzles (i.e choose the really tall girl and she can get something from a high shelf for you... choose the short bird and she can stand on your shoulders.... )

[DGMacphee]

Rabbit:
What about people who read romance novels?

Romance novels, like games with romance in them, are merely an escape -- something we all need every now and then.

Love in computer games is merely an escape, just the same as pretending to be a hitman (In Hitman) or pretending to lead an army (in Command & Conquer).

Why shouldn't people fall in love with characters in games?

They become part of what inspires us.

The distinction I think you are trying to make is where it reaches the point of obsession, or as Terran said lusting after a character -- which is more so using, say, Lara Croft as wank-material.

That leaves people as socially maladjusted geeks.

But what we are talking about here is understanding another entity, even if ficitional.

Romance never left anyone maladjusted.

Obession does.

But never romance.


SSH:
That's a good point -- I forgot about WC3.

That had a very well-done romance angle -- especially the decision making process and cosequences.

And if you choose neither, you end the game with no woman by your side, a hero alone, floating toward home.

[Soft, Gooey, Delicious.]

Rabbit:
What about people who read romance novels?

I think the fact they are reading a romance novel speaks for itself...
Besides, they don't read them to fall in love with the characters, but to see the drama of love unfold. These two are quite different.

[DGMacphee]

I don't share the same view.

I know quite a number of women that have fallen in love with heroes from different books.

It's more than just watching the drama unfold.

It's placing yourself in a position, partially as a means of escape.

Of course there are other things involved, such as meaning and message, social relevance, psychoanalytic meaning, etc.

But these things are just as important as using a novel as a means to escape and join in on the adventure.

That's the power of imagination.



But I'm a romantic and lover at heart, so my view is very different from yours.

I can understand what you say about detaching yourself from a piece of literature -- and in a lot of ways, you are right.

But sometimes I just need to feel something, and I'd rather attach myself to a great story or character, that to remain emotionally distant -- I've learnt that lesson so well.

I'd rather let my heart fill with all things: novels, films, nature, my family, and of course, my girlfriend.

All of these are my loves, whether it be finding a connection to a character from a book/film/game, to feeling sunlight upon my body, to spending Christmas with the folks, or to fall asleep on the couch with my Rene -- I'm so in love with it all.

Simple pleasures.

And not being afraid to feel something.

That's what makes me human.

Edit: It's a difficult view to explain -- you are probably wondering what the hell I'm babbling about.

[Scid]

Sacrificing things for each other is where it's at. That could either be something very small, such as spending some time with her when you'd rather do something else - or something big and heroic, such as choosing to save her first, even if there's a timebomb about to go off.

Of course, these are very stupid examples. You really shouldn't want to be doing something else, in the first example. And the second example is just plain stupid because it's so unrealistic.

A better example would be if you were in a fight with your girlfriend, and you know you're right. Yet she continues to argue, and eventually begins to cry. Now instead of trying to explain the situation, you comfort her first - showing that you care about her feelings and sorrow, rather than trying to prove your point.

I think a practical way for your character to show he cares about his girldfriend would be to mention her once in a while when he narrates. Such as "I remember when me an Natalia first went to this bar. We got thrown out because we threw peanuts at the waiter. We made things up later, though and now the owner is a good friend." or "Natalia would love this painting. Personally, I think it's a bit over the top, but I can understand why she likes it." - Don't do it too often, though, or your character will appear settled. And that's not good either.

[Las Naranjas]

I think that one big difference is that DG loves humaity in general, despite it's flaws.


But something that comes through strongly in Sakura is the capacity for loss. Apart from the uber protagonistical feeling of "I did that" that you get in any game [except Syberia unfortunately] (My favourite example is how hard it is to leave the swamplin in Simon1, despite the ludicrous context), this is reinforced by the multiple plot lines. Now you know there is an alternate action to the one that you've done, and if you lose the girl, you know it's because of something you [thats YOU you] did, even if it was as simple as failing to think about them at the right time.

and now I've wandered off it to the area of this article I've been struggling with. I'm tempted to include Sakura and other titles and write the artivle oley on how interactivity makes the profane sublime.

Because in all honesty, even the best games rarely have titles that rise above pulp or comic books (not to denegrate those two mediums ).

---edit---
I could be argued that Sakura is just a graphical "choose you own adventure". I can avoid that, or just talk about True Love.