WEREWOLF GAME (GAME OVER & DISCUSSION)

Started by Mandle, Sat 14/07/2018 17:14:36

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josiah1221

Sorry Stupot!!! I nearly changed my vote when I realized there were 5 votes against you. But then I remembered what happened the last time I second guessed myself. I killed you instead of the king who I had originally targeted. But not second guessing myself this time around got you killed again. I'm a terrible person!!! :~( Seriously though, if you had came out a day sooner I would have definitely believed you, but being day 3 I just figured you were a wolf searching for any way possible to not get lynched especially when I started to notice VampireWombat's sudden change of attitude, (as if he really wasn't the bodyguard) I still had a feeling about Cassie though, so it was foolish of me not to act on that. But even if I had changed my vote I don't think it would have changed anyone else's mind at that point.

Anyway, I really enjoyed it. I actually played this game with a group of friends 7 or 8 years ago, so it's neat to get to play it again but in a forum. Much more challenging to figure people out but also gives you more time to think about what you want to say and you don't have to worry about body language giving you away.

I'm definitely down for another round!

Cassiebsg

#201
I'm definitely not in another round, ever! 8-0
I once was tricked into playing Travian as my brother said "you just use 5 - 10 min a couple times to play" ... after 6-8 months I was setting my alarm clock to ring at 2:00, 3:10, 5:20 just so I could lunch a coordinated attack with other members of my alliance... 8-0 (roll) I ended up giving my towns to my leader about a month before the end (it takes around 12 months) when I caught my self getting ready to tell my other half "But you just don't understand! This is important! It's a matter of live and death..." Once that thought crossed my mind, I realized I needed to stop playing that game. It was just a stupid game  (wtf) that wasn't more important than my other half and our real life!

I must admit I got pretty mad at Stu for using him breaking the rules and post during the night to gain advantage in the game. From his post I got it that the only reason he scanned me was due to my nudging him about posting during the night time. And his post also influenced how we choose the next snack... cause we didn't knew who read it, and if we choose him if people would think that it was because he voted for Sinitrena... :-\ Only reason I even nudged him was cause I didn't want him to get kicked out of the game and thus giving us a victory by default.
And yes, I hated that the day/night ended and started at the masters "whim" (time schedule) I realize that game host also has a life, but not having a definitely time for when the turn end, makes it impossible to play the "change the vote at the last second" tactic. It would be better to say The day turn ends exactly at 00:00GMT or some other clock time.

I tried to imply that I was the seer (or knew who he was) after Stu revealed himself, but I had no more time then as I needed to go to work (I was eating my breakfast at the time) and then I don't have internet at work, so I couldn't play that angle anymore. Also wanted to say that the wolfs had been targeting me for lynching from the start, and that's why there were only 2 votes on me (as the 3rd wolf had voted on the wolf to be sacrificed, for the sake of the pack... if one of the town changed it's vote, I could claim "there's the 3rd wolf!" :P)
But I have no idea how retracting my vote come across to the town... but I find it funny that VW started doubting himself again at the end... (roll) You played a dangerous game there, only reason we didn't eat you was cause we actually thought you were most likely the fool, and we had no interest at that time to eat him... So, we were as surprised to see dayowlron was the fool. (laugh) Oh, and thanks for guarding me in the first night, I appreciate it. (nod) I actually thought at one point (was almost ready to PM Mandle and ask him) what would happen if the guard decided to guard one of us, if he would see that the person he was guarding was a wolf. But we decided that if that was the case the rules should have mentioned it.

I saw so many possible strategies, that I got my self confused. In the end I realize we're all unexperienced in the game and thus the strategies weren't set up properly.
Also VW made it very clear (for us wolfs anyway) who the seer was, with his first post on day 3. He had to wait for someone to vote first, and all he thought was right was wrong (except for dayowlron). He basically told us (wolfs) that he knew who the seer was and was waiting for him to vote. Once Stupot voted he voted too... It was so obvious that I started wondering what were these two up to. So I even commented (to the pack) that if VW was the seer and had scan me that it would be funny and that he had played a very dangerous game there. (laugh)
Also by Stu outing him self like he did, he gave us, the wolfs, the best chance we had to win the game if I gotten lynched. Cause now we knew who the seer was... so we could just go an eat him (and eat VW by mistake). Then a new lynch would come out. So know it would be one seer, 2 town and 2 wolf. Stupot could only scan one during the night, if he got a town he could get an ally if he got a wolf he could lynch. But he would be eaten next turn. And it would at best be 2 town 1 wolf... Then it would end up in a pointing fingers at each other with all 3 claiming to be town. Game could now go either way. But if they had lynched me, and the wolfs failed to eat either the seer or the guard... it would be 1 seer, one guard and 1 town. At this point the only town left knows that any one claiming to be town can only be a wolf. I think it would have been better if VW had come out as the seer and claimed I was a wolf, and that Stupot was a town. That would mean that for josiah and selmiak, that both know they are town would more likely change their vote. Than Stupot outing him self like that. ;) Just a thought maybe?

Also saying that as wolfs, after the first night we all could take a risk and pick one of them, PM and claim to have scan them and seen they were town, and thus gain an ally. The only downside with this would be if we accidentally PM the seer, who would then know that person was a wolf and that the wolfs were using that strategy. But again, we only thought of that later, by then it was a bit too late to try that. As the possibly of hitting the seer or one that was already "recruited" would have been high.

I have no idea if I come out as a wolf all the way (guess I didn't since they decided not to lynch me),but I fully expected to be lynched during the 3 days... which is why I decided that just in case I added Riaise to my list of suspect wolfs... ;)

* Cassiebsg waves at Adeel
There are those who believe that life here began out there...

Gurok

Hello,

Just visiting. I must say, this is a quaint little tow-- oh heavens! There's blood everywhere!
[img]http://7d4iqnx.gif;rWRLUuw.gi

Cassiebsg

* Cassiebsg looks hungry at Gurok... uhm... :-D
There are those who believe that life here began out there...

Mandle

#204
Quote from: Cassiebsg on Thu 26/07/2018 11:56:44
And yes, I hated that the day/night ended and started at the masters "whim" (time schedule) I realize that game host also has a life, but not having a definitely time for when the turn end, makes it impossible to play the "change the vote at the last second" tactic. It would be better to say The day turn ends exactly at 00:00GMT or some other clock time.

Yeah, actually the "change the vote at the last second" tactic is definately frowned upon in experienced circles as a very cheap one and is a good reason not to have a perfectly exact Phase ending time unless people avoid using it.

Especially using this trick to win the game feels like an empty win to the victors and a dodgy tactic to the losers and everyone usually goes away feeling bad and never joins another game.

Thanks for the long feedback post though with insight into the wolf team's thinking. It's always a bit frustrating for the game host to not see these behind the scenes intrigues so hearing about it afterwards is always great!

I will read carefully later when I have time.

Riaise

Quote from: Sinitrena on Thu 26/07/2018 00:42:50
First of all, thanks for playing guys and sorry to dayowlron and PrivateerPuddin' for eating you. Rest assured, you at least tasted great :P And sorry Stupot, it must have been incredibly frustrating to know you are right but nobody believed you and in the end even VampireWombat seemed to start to doubt you a bit. I would like to thank selmiak, your suggestion that Stu might be a wolf in day two really helped us along by confusing everyone (including the wolves. We knew you were not the seer who had checked Stu but you sure sounded like you were. What were you thinking?)

Yeah, this goes for me, too. Sorry, everyone! Especially Stu, it must have been hugely frustrating for you.

Quote from: Mandle on Thu 26/07/2018 00:53:47
It's also terrifying that you might not remember your own lies consistantly and slip up somewhere and doom your team (like a wolf-player claimed VampireWombat had so you guys must have been watching for such slips in your own posts to notice that one I'm thinking).

That was me. And yes, I was constantly second-guessing everything I was posting, just in case it made me look suspicious, or conflicted with something Sinitrena or Cassie had said (or was too much in agreement with them!). This game really does get inside your brain!

I think a part of why we were so cautious is because it was the first time playing for a lot of us. In a few rounds time we may be more confident at the game and take more risks, like pretending to be the seer or the fool. I do wonder, though, did anyone suspect all three of us as being wolves? Obviously there was some suspicion individually, but did anyone guess the full wolf group?

I had fun, and I'll sign up for the next round. :)

Sinitrena

As I will take over as host, I have a couple questions about the rules and I think this is the right place and time to ask them for me and everyone else. For some I think I know the answer, I just want to clarify.

When a player dies, the role is revealed - so far, so good. Is his/her knowledge revealed as well?

Let's assume that the seer gets eaten/lynched:
- Is it revealed who he/she scanned?
- Is it revealed in which round?
- Is it only revealed when lynched? Or when eaten?
- Does he/she still learn the information from the night he/she got eaten? (because he/she is still allowed to chat privately with players just not in the open, correct?)

Let's assume the guard gets eaten while guarding someone:
- Is it revealed that he/she was guarding?
- and who was guarded?
- Or just that he/she was eaten (thereby giving the wolves information the town does not immediately recieve)?

I guess I'm just not entirely sure what information I'm supposed to provide when.



As for the closing a phase thing. I have an idea that might avoid posting in the last second and still make it clear when a round ends even if the host runs late:
- the round ends in a time frame, let's say between 11 and 12
- in this time frame the host can close whenever
- if the host runs late, the last valid post is at the timestemp 12 (for the example)
--> that would avoid the possiblity to post in the last second because the host could show up earlier
--> at the same time it would offer security because there is a definitive end time
Did I think this through properly? Would it work?

Sinitrena

Sorry for the double post, I get an error when I try to edit.

I forgot it in my earlier write-up: Thank you to my team. I think we worked great together, often without even discussing our strategies in too much details and I think we played off each other fairly well. :-*

Quote from: Riaise on Thu 26/07/2018 13:44:48
And yes, I was constantly second-guessing everything I was posting, just in case it made me look suspicious, or conflicted with something Sinitrena or Cassie had said (or was too much in agreement with them!). This game really does get inside your brain!

So was I, but I really think we managed it somehow. And I think nobody suspected the full pack?

Mandle

#208
ANSWERING QUESTIONS:

When a player dies, the role is revealed - so far, so good. Is his/her knowledge revealed as well?

Let's assume that the seer gets eaten/lynched:
- Is it revealed who he/she scanned? NO
- Does he/she still learn the information from the night he/she got eaten? (because he/she is still allowed to chat privately with players just not in the open, correct?) YES

Let's assume the guard gets eaten while guarding someone:
- Is it revealed that he/she was guarding? YES. THEY SHOULD JUST BE FOUND DEAD IN THE STREET AS IF OUT ON PATROL.
- Should it be revealed who was guarded? NO!

Another potential question here is how to handle it if the Bodyguard was guarding a werewolf regarding what is PMed to the Bodyguard player:

The Bodyguard only needs a PM telling them when they guarded someone but nothing happened.

I used the format: <PLAYER> was not attacked this night.

The Bodyguard does NOT have the ability to gain a hint if they happened to be guarding a wolf. The wolves are very sneaky about getting in and out of their homes it seems!

In the event that the Bodyguard did manage to guard someone from an attack then no PM is needed. They will read about their death the following day.

Sinitrena

Quote from: Mandle on Thu 26/07/2018 15:05:36
The Bodyguard only needs a PM telling them when they guarded someone but nothing happened.

I used the format: <PLAYER> was not attacked this night.

Am I missing something? - that's useless information. When the guarded person wasn't attacked, then they are still alive the next morning, which the guard will learn through the morning post, just like everyone else.

There are three possible outcomes for a guard:
- neither guard nor protected person get attacked - they are both alive in the morning
- protected person was attacked - guard is dead, town learns that someone was protected, wolves also learn who was protected
- guard himself gets attacked - guard is dead, town and werwolves learn that guard himself was attacked, or not? I guess I'm still not clear on that one. Would I say that he was killed while protecting someone? Does it make a difference if he was protecting someone (because he could also decide not to protect anyone?)

Either way, all possible outcomes are revealed in the morning, aren't they? I must be missing something. The more I think about it, the more confused I get.

Cassiebsg

#210
I think that info is useless in this game too. If he's not dead and was guarding someone, then he would immediate know (once he opened the thread) that whom ever he guarded wasn't a target.
Only way I could see this info being useful, is if the guard was more than just a "punch bag". As in if the master/host ruled a dice with possible outcomes: the guard died, the werewolves saw the guard and retreated, the werewolves managed to kill both guard and guarded, the guard didn't managed to protect the victim but managed to follow one of the wolfs and discover the identity of a wolf... etc etc (have I ever said I think the most complicated theories once in a while? (laugh) ) Maybe that's a variation of the game when more players are in?

Also...
QuoteTHEY SHOULD JUST BE FOUND DEAD

THEY? Do you mean both the guard and the target? 8-0 ??? Or you just got tired of typing "he/she"? (laugh)

PS:
Quote- Does he/she still learn the information from the night he/she got eaten? (because he/she is still allowed to chat privately with players just not in the open, correct?) YES

What? I thought that being dead would have been impending to see anything from the beyond... 8-0 In that case, if they had believed that Stupot was the seer and I had been lynched, then the wolfs would have lost, no other outcome would be possible there! 8-0
There are those who believe that life here began out there...

Mandle

#211
Quote from: Sinitrena on Thu 26/07/2018 15:24:07
Quote from: Mandle on Thu 26/07/2018 15:05:36
The Bodyguard only needs a PM telling them when they guarded someone but nothing happened.

I used the format: <PLAYER> was not attacked this night.

Am I missing something? - that's useless information.

Yeah, it's probably useless but it lets the Bodyguard know that their night action had taken place despite having failed. Just player feedback and reminds them to check the thread. Cut it if you want to. It's just what I did.

Quote from: Cassiebsg on Thu 26/07/2018 15:39:45
QuoteTHEY SHOULD JUST BE FOUND DEAD

THEY? Do you mean both the guard and the target? 8-0 ??? Or you just got tired of typing "he/she"? (laugh)

Yeah, I meant he or she...

Quote from: Cassiebsg on Thu 26/07/2018 15:39:45
Quote- Does he/she still learn the information from the night he/she got eaten? (because he/she is still allowed to chat privately with players just not in the open, correct?) YES

What? I thought that being dead would have been impending to see anything from the beyond... 8-0 In that case, if they had believed that Stupot was the seer and I had been lynched, then the wolfs would have lost, no other outcome would be possible there! 8-0

There is nothing in the rules that says the werewolf kill happens before or after any other player's night action.

All actions happen no matter what in the classic ruleset. There is no order. In fact, even trying to imagine being a game host with a list order to obey makes me shudder!

The outside communication is okay rule, even after death, is basically there because otherwise the game would be impossible to control. The in-game logic is that the deceased player left a journal behind.

Of course an extra rule that the Seer doesn't get to know what they were seering if they are killed is an option but should be noted in the game startup rules and bolded!

As to why the wolfs would have lost I'm confused as to what you mean.

The game would have continued on with 2 wolves and they still would have been unknown to the town and the town would have still have had the challenge to figure out who they are before being outnumbered once again.

Cassiebsg

#212
Well by my accounts:
They believed the seer, the wolfs attack the seer during the night while he's protected by the guard and scans one of the other 4.

At day time you have:
1 seer
2 town
2 wolf

If the seer found a town, they are now 2 against 2 wolf and 1 that is still guessing. So the seer can now say openly who the other town is. This means you now have 3 ppl claiming to be town, but the only person that doesn't know anything knows who the seer and other town is. How does the last town convince the seer that he's the right town so he's not lynched? At this time the wolfs have only one option, to point fingers at each other. The change to lynch a wolf is 2/3 higher than actually lynching a town. But if the seer found a wolf, they would know exactly who to lynch, the seer would point a finger, the 1st town would follow, and the last town would too, cause he now he knew he was the last one good and just vote to lynch. Then night falls and the seer scans, gets killed by the last wolf. But the last wolf has no chance now, has the seer has seen the last town/wolf and that info will be revealed to the town. :-\
So the only single option of the wolfs still having a change at that point is if the seer has scanned a town and the wolfs start pointing fingers at each other in the hopes to convince the seer and the town to lynch the only town left... (roll) Guess you have a single turn left, by my counts. It would even be worse, if the wolfs thought the seer was bluffing about being the seer and went and killed a town during the night.

PS - I forgot to add that I forgot to remove the dead guard from my first thought. (laugh)
There are those who believe that life here began out there...

selmiak

Quote from: Sinitrena on Thu 26/07/2018 00:42:50
First of all, thanks for playing guys and sorry to dayowlron and PrivateerPuddin' for eating you. Rest assured, you at least tasted great :P And sorry Stupot, it must have been incredibly frustrating to know you are right but nobody believed you and in the end even VampireWombat seemed to start to doubt you a bit. I would like to thank selmiak, your suggestion that Stu might be a wolf in day two really helped us along by confusing everyone (including the wolves. We knew you were not the seer who had checked Stu but you sure sounded like you were. What were you thinking?)
With what and how he wrote I just had the suspicion that stupot is important, but I was so sure it is his alphawolf importance and not the seer importance. Damned. sorry I killed you seer, I didn't know any better...
I'm just a villager that was afraid of the wolves and made some conclusions with what is there :P

dayowlron

Well after 2 days of not lynching anyone the town only had a 1 person advantage over the wolves and the wolves would be killing a towns person each round so in order for the town to have won they would have been 100% accurate 3 nights in a row.
I hope I didn't offend anyone, I was just trying to be annoying enough that they would choose me to lynch the first round. just wound up getting eaten by the wolves instead.  It was fun even though my part was short lived.
Pro is the opposite of Con                       Kids of today are so much different
This fact can clearly be seen,                  Don't you know?
If progress means to move forward         Just ask them where they are from
Then what does congress mean?             And they tell you where you can go.  --Nipsey Russell

VampireWombat

No offense from me dayowlron. I never had a doubt of your role. And drinking wolfsbane mojitos was the highlight of the game to me. Sorry that I suggested to use you as werewolf fodder and they listened.

Stupot

Quote from: CassieI must admit I got pretty mad at Stu for using him breaking the rules and post during the night to gain advantage in the game. From his post I got it that the only reason he scanned me was due to my nudging him about posting during the night time. And his post also influenced how we choose the next snack... cause we didn't knew who read it, and if we choose him if people would think that it was because he voted for Sinitrena... :-\ Only reason I even nudged him was cause I didn't want him to get kicked out of the game and thus giving us a victory by default.
I definitely ballsed up by posting at night time and can only apologise. It was a genuine mistake.

I would like to point out though that I had already requested to scan you at 23:55 Japan time. Your PM to me about posting at night was at 00:04, so it had no bearing on my decision to scan you. Mandle then confirmed it at a later time.

I will put my hands up and admit that it was bad form to use details of your PM to try to convince people, considering that PM was the result of my having broken the rules. It didn't occur to me at the time and was bad ettiquette. So for that I'm also sorry. I should have skipped the part where I tried to pretend I had some other intel and just admitted being the seer from the outset.

Just to reiterate though. When you PM'ed me I had already scanned you and had a suspicion but it was only later that Mandle confirmed your role.

Sinitrena

Okay, I think I got all rules now and so I started the next round.

Head over here for sign-up if you're interested.

Cassiebsg

Your excused then, you made it sound like that was the reason you picket me. (roll)
There are those who believe that life here began out there...

Riaise

Quote from: Sinitrena on Thu 26/07/2018 14:57:20
I forgot it in my earlier write-up: Thank you to my team. I think we worked great together, often without even discussing our strategies in too much details and I think we played off each other fairly well. :-*

I forgot, too. Thanks to my wolf team for being so awesome! :-* And thanks to Mandle for hosting, even if our boring tactics did send him to sleep. (laugh)

Quote from: VampireWombat on Thu 26/07/2018 22:41:34
Sorry that I suggested to use you as werewolf fodder and they listened.

Don't be sorry, it wasn't really because of that. We were trying to decide between eating someone who had been loud (you or dayowlron) or a quiet person (everyone else). We thought that eating a loud person would be safest, and we just happened to choose dayowlron. To be honest, we had so little to go on that first night that it could just have easily been you, and then the game would have been very different!

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