And then there were none (AGS Werewolf Game 3) (Phase: End Discussion)

Started by Sinitrena, Tue 14/08/2018 19:22:55

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Sinitrena

Quote from: Mandle on Sun 02/09/2018 10:51:56
The second factor was alcohol.

Don't drink and play, it might get you killed. I was so confused by this claim of Mandle's as well. I knew it wasn't true but it also wasn't benefitting him to liey there. I guess alcohol is a pretty good explenation. (laugh)

I laughed so hard on day 3 when josiah was the only one not wanting to lynch Stupot. A bit of guilty conscience from all the other times you got Stu killed? ;)


By the way, if someone is interested, nearly all kill methods were on me this time. Kastchey's only request was the feather boa in night 1. It's actually a lot more fun and challenging for me when you request stuff. I'd love a game where the bad side tries to make me write the most absurd and not fitting to the setting things as possible. (At their own risk, of course. Stuff like that has always the risk of revealing something about them.)

As for the next game...
I take it you all want me to host again?

I don't know if a new game right away would be a good idea, we all get a bit tired from too many games, I think. You don't want to oversaturate the market.How about 1 game per month? Checking the date of this thread, that would mean the next one opens for sign-up in two weeks.

But if you want to play again, and it looks like some people are interested, let's talk a bit about the next setting as well. Where do you want to play? Somewhat isolated places make more sense, especially if we go with a more role-playing approach. For a purly tactical game, it doesn't matter so much, but would you even want story-telling then?

As for the propblem of ghosts, I think we all agree that it would be better, or at least interesting, to disallow them and work with a last words approach instead. How exactly that would work, I'd still have to think about it.

A last point: I think you all get why I used the locked vote thing for the last phase. It made sense for this specific situation because the outcome was clear anyway, but would you want this option in normal rounds?

Kastchey

Quote from: Sinitrena on Sun 02/09/2018 14:28:08
Quote from: Mandle on Sun 02/09/2018 10:51:56
The second factor was alcohol.
Don't drink and play, it might get you killed.
In fact... It did get Mandle killed.

When thinking who is likely to be the Psychic, I noticed how Mandle significantly changed the tone of his posts after Stu said that "if not cat, then it must have been Mandle who had been protected". I was sure it wasn't a coincindence - I thought it likely that he may be the Psychic himself, I also thought he might have been bluffing but damn, it never occurred to me that he could just have been drunk! Really, Mandle? REALLY?! (laugh)

VampireWombat

I don't have any thoughts at the moment on location or when to start the next game, but I do want it to start soon enough to be over in time for a more Halloween themed one for next month.

josiah1221

Quote from: Sinitrena on Sun 02/09/2018 14:28:08
I laughed so hard on day 3 when josiah was the only one not wanting to lynch Stupot. A bit of guilty conscience from all the other times you got Stu killed? ;)
Haha, yeah I've definitely reached my "kill Stupot" quota for the year. (laugh)

Quote from: Sinitrena on Sun 02/09/2018 14:28:08By the way, if someone is interested, nearly all kill methods were on me this time. Kastchey's only request was the feather boa in night 1. It's actually a lot more fun and challenging for me when you request stuff. I'd love a game where the bad side tries to make me write the most absurd and not fitting to the setting things as possible. (At their own risk, of course. Stuff like that has always the risk of revealing something about them.)

Stupot stew, lol. At the time I didn't think to realize how well that fit into Mandle's style of humor.

Quote from: Sinitrena on Sun 02/09/2018 14:28:08As for the next game...
I take it you all want me to host again?

But of course!

Quote from: Sinitrena on Sun 02/09/2018 14:28:08I don't know if a new game right away would be a good idea, we all get a bit tired from too many games, I think. You don't want to oversaturate the market.How about 1 game per month? Checking the date of this thread, that would mean the next one opens for sign-up in two weeks.

I will definitely be taking a break from the next game. (I need time for my brain to get undiscombobulated!) Plus it will be fun to see one from the outside with no stress. But I'll definitely be back :)


Quote from: VampireWombat on Sun 02/09/2018 15:36:24
I don't have any thoughts at the moment on location or when to start the next game, but I do want it to start soon enough to be over in time for a more Halloween themed one for next month.

Aaah! That's right up my alley, I love Halloween! (nod) We could do a masquerade theme!!!

Stupot

Haha. Josiah. Your kind guiltiness almost played into our hands. When everyone voted to lynch me and you were the only one sticking up for me it must have looked certain that you were my partner. When I knew I was almost certainly out I was considering that I might write some kind of parting letter (or PM after the fact) acknowledging my guilt and then “accidentally” type ‘sorry, Jo, I'm out'.

I chose not to because a) people probably will have worked out it was s trick and b) that would have been a real dick move, especially after you were the only one who didn't vote for me.

I must also apologise to Cat. Kastchey and I genuinely became convinced that Cat was working will Mandle, and if we could convince everyone else that they were in cahoots then maybe it would have been reasonable that they were the murderers. Trying to pick holes in Mandle's account of events was fun but exhausting.

Also I wasn't as engaged as I should have been, especially as a wolf. It took some effort to keep up with the thread, let alone try to analyze all the ins and outs. So apologies to Kastchey for pretty much letting him do all the work, strategy-wise, but for future reference, he's a good person to have on your team if you are a baddie.


josiah1221

Quote from: Stupot on Mon 03/09/2018 02:49:40
Haha. Josiah. Your kind guiltiness almost played into our hands. When everyone voted to lynch me and you were the only one sticking up for me it must have looked certain that you were my partner. When I knew I was almost certainly out I was considering that I might write some kind of parting letter (or PM after the fact) acknowledging my guilt and then “accidentally” type ‘sorry, Jo, I'm out'.

I chose not to because a) people probably will have worked out it was a trick and b) that would have been a real dick move, especially after you were the only one who didn't vote for me.

Haha, man I actually wished you had! That would have been a fun challenge trying to talk my way out of it (laugh) and if I had gotten lynched because of it, I certainly wouldn't have been upset after getting you killed 3 games in a row!


Quote from: Stupot on Mon 03/09/2018 02:49:40Also I wasn't as engaged as I should have been, especially as a wolf. It took some effort to keep up with the thread, let alone try to analyze all the ins and outs. So apologies to Kastchey for pretty much letting him do all the work, strategy-wise, but for future reference, he's a good person to have on your team if you are a baddie.

Yeah, he definitely had me fooled! I can also say Mandle is a good one to have as a partner. In the last game we pulled it off despite our 13 hour time difference!

Riaise

So you're both saying that if we end up with a Kastchey/Mandle murder duo in future games, then the town players might as well just give up? (laugh)

Quote from: Sinitrena on Sun 02/09/2018 14:28:08
As for the next game...
I take it you all want me to host again?
If you're willing to, then I'd definitely be up for you hosting again!

Quote from: Sinitrena on Sun 02/09/2018 14:28:08
I don't know if a new game right away would be a good idea, we all get a bit tired from too many games, I think. You don't want to oversaturate the market.How about 1 game per month? Checking the date of this thread, that would mean the next one opens for sign-up in two weeks.
Yeah, that sounds good to me. A Monthly Murder Mystery. MMM. (laugh)

Quote from: Sinitrena on Sun 02/09/2018 14:28:08
A last point: I think you all get why I used the locked vote thing for the last phase. It made sense for this specific situation because the outcome was clear anyway, but would you want this option in normal rounds?
It could be useful if we come to a consensus quickly, rather than having to wait an extra day or so for the phase to end. So having the option would be nice.

Mandle

The "locked votes" thing sounds very positive in both ending useless day phases early where things are a foregone conclusion and also an interesting window into the psychology of why someone would lock a vote and when they did so.

Of course we will probably hear a lot of "I'm going away camping for the next two days so..." kind of reasons... True, or not, and how long can that player hide other activity on AGS or otherwise if not true?

Gonna be fun!

I'm up for another round with our awesome host whenever it starts!

Sign me up automatically, please!

Kastchey

I wanted to say it earlier, but didn't get around to write more than a couple lines until now - thanks for a great game guys! And congratulations to town for winning this round, very well played. Also, Stu belittles his own contribution into the tactics. He has been a great partner in crime, and very patient in digesting and filtering all that spam I'd send him throughout the game (I was half expecting him to put me on ignore list at some point).

Quote from: Mandle on Mon 03/09/2018 15:52:10
The "locked votes" thing sounds very positive in both ending useless day phases early where things are a foregone conclusion and also an interesting window into the psychology of why someone would lock a vote and when they did so.
Agreed! It's a very interesting concept. Imagine: "Oh damn, I'm now convinced that you were right to accuse X but alas, I cannot change my vote anymore! :<"

Quote from: Sinitrena on Sun 02/09/2018 14:28:08
By the way, if someone is interested, nearly all kill methods were on me this time. Kastchey's only request was the feather boa in night 1. It's actually a lot more fun and challenging for me when you request stuff. I'd love a game where the bad side tries to make me write the most absurd and not fitting to the setting things as possible.
Really? Oh, okay. I wasn't sure if you'd like some more input or if it interfered with your storytelling concept. That's definitely good to know.
It's very interesting when you share more insight about what's fun to you as the Game Master, too. This is an entirely different perspective!
QuoteHow about 1 game per month? Checking the date of this thread, that would mean the next one opens for sign-up in two weeks.
That sounds just about right. Or perhaps a little differently - set a fixed three weeks break between the end of the last game and the start of another, since various games play out differently? This one ended on day 5, the previous one on day 3 for example.
QuoteBut if you want to play again, and it looks like some people are interested, let's talk a bit about the next setting as well. Where do you want to play? Somewhat isolated places make more sense, especially if we go with a more role-playing approach. For a purly tactical game, it doesn't matter so much, but would you even want story-telling then?
I think everyone enjoys the storytelling aspect to some extent, and no one would want to ditch it entirely. I'm a huge fan of the concept of changing the setting each game. A cult of the Old Ones as the scum team could be nice. Or a game taking place in deep space (Battlestar Galactica's cylons vs humans come to mind, or that Trilby game by Yahtzee that's set on a spaceship). Or another go at Agatha Christie-ish setting, say Orient Express for a change? Or something fairly close to the original Werewolf game setting, but with a slight tweak, e.g. a setting similar to The Village (which wasn't a very good movie but is creepy enough and it fits the game).

Quote from: Riaise on Mon 03/09/2018 14:11:26
So you're both saying that if we end up with a Kastchey/Mandle murder duo in future games, then the town players might as well just give up? (laugh)
Haha ;-D Well, I was almost certain that dayowlron was the Nurse on night 2 and I did strongly consider killing VW as an alternative to Mandle on night 3, BUT it was also me who came up with that cat-Mandle cooperation idea that turned out to have been completely wrong and which severely clouded both mine and Stupot's judgement (sorry, Stu...), so I really feel I did bite my own tail in this game. I also learned something though, which is "never assume that the opposite team is playing a certain specific cover strategy". Because there can be several perfectly valid cover strategies, and no matter how likely any one of them seems to be you simply have no clue what your opponents are playing at.


One more thing I thought might be interesting to discuss: the Nurse role.
I think that with the current ruleset, the Nurse is the absolute MVP of the town team. The way we play now (which I confirmed with Sini during the game) is that the fact that a target has been successfully protected is fully revealed to all players, but without revealing the target's exact role or the Nurse's identity.
So in effect, the Nurse has the following "hidden" powers in addition to just protecting their target (and themselves, compared to the Bodyguard) from death:
* the Nurse makes the scum team completely waste one of their kills,
* the Nurse hides the role of the protected player from the scum team,
* the Nurse hides their own identity from the scum team,
* the Nurse proves the target's innocence to the town team.

Now, I have no idea if it makes the Nurse too strong, or if the balance is just about right if we want the town to sometimes win for a change. We surely need to play more games in this setup to get a better idea. But I wanted to share my thoughts on that as something to maybe look at during/after future sessions?

Sinitrena

Quote from: Kastchey on Mon 03/09/2018 22:06:57
One more thing I thought might be interesting to discuss: the Nurse role.
I think that with the current ruleset, the Nurse is the absolute MVP of the town team. The way we play now (which I confirmed with Sini during the game) is that the fact that a target has been successfully protected is fully revealed to all players, but without revealing the target's exact role or the Nurse's identity.
So in effect, the Nurse has the following "hidden" powers in addition to just protecting their target (and themselves, compared to the Bodyguard) from death:
* the Nurse makes the scum team completely waste one of their kills,
* the Nurse hides the role of the protected player from the scum team,
* the Nurse hides their own identity from the scum team,
* the Nurse proves the target's innocence to the town team.

Now, I have no idea if it makes the Nurse too strong, or if the balance is just about right if we want the town to sometimes win for a change. We surely need to play more games in this setup to get a better idea. But I wanted to share my thoughts on that as something to maybe look at during/after future sessions?

The nurse seems strong when you describe it like that, but for the nurse's powers to take effect, the nurse and the scum side must decide on the same person in the same night, which becomes more likely the longer the game goes on. But the longer the game goes on, the more knoweldge everyone should have anyway.

In the three games we played, the nurse (or guard, for the first two games, but that's irrelevant for now) did not once actually manage to protect anyone.

Because coincidence is such a large part of the nurse's power, I don't think the role is too strong. But you're right, we need a bit more data on that, especially what would happen if the nurse actually manages to protect someone. How would it play out? And how would it interact with the removal of "ghosts" as discussed above?

Quote from: Kastchey on Mon 03/09/2018 22:06:57
Quote from: Mandle on Mon 03/09/2018 15:52:10
The "locked votes" thing sounds very positive in both ending useless day phases early where things are a foregone conclusion and also an interesting window into the psychology of why someone would lock a vote and when they did so.
Agreed! It's a very interesting concept. Imagine: "Oh damn, I'm now convinced that you were right to accuse X but alas, I cannot change my vote anymore! :<"
That's why I'm hesitant with this option and why I didn't use it in earlier rounds and why I call it a risk.

Quote from: Kastchey on Mon 03/09/2018 22:06:57
Quote from: Sinitrena on Sun 02/09/2018 14:28:08
By the way, if someone is interested, nearly all kill methods were on me this time. Kastchey's only request was the feather boa in night 1. It's actually a lot more fun and challenging for me when you request stuff. I'd love a game where the bad side tries to make me write the most absurd and not fitting to the setting things as possible.
Really? Oh, okay. I wasn't sure if you'd like some more input or if it interfered with your storytelling concept. That's definitely good to know.
It's very interesting when you share more insight about what's fun to you as the Game Master, too. This is an entirely different perspective!

I don't ever know what you all decide to do, so there is little concept I can create. I tried to have a bit of a theme with always having a number and a colour for each murder (and forget about it for at least one, I think) but that's about as far as I can go without giving anything away. I can't create a motive, or an actual narrative or plot. I'm limited to scene descriptions that I might be able to connect slightly.

For me as a writer, it's an interesting experience, but I don't exactly produce proper stories. It's a challange, because it goes against every rule for what a good story entails. And from that point of view, strange kill methods are more interesting to write, because otherwise I end up only writing that someone is dead. There are only so many ways to do that.

So yes, absurd kill methods are fun and they certainly can't destroy a non-existent storytelling concept.

Not having a concept to work with also means I have very little time to write each piece, because every kill needs to fit the player, especially in a more role-playing focused game. And I love the scum side for sending their kill requests early, because it means I have more time. (I would never ask them to hurry up their decision. They have the time, per game rules, the writing part is my problem). It took me about an hour for each piece to write, with most of the time thinking about it and ten minutes of actual writing and maybe five minutes looking for pictures that somewhat fit what I wrote.

Quote from: Kastchey on Mon 03/09/2018 22:06:57
QuoteBut if you want to play again, and it looks like some people are interested, let's talk a bit about the next setting as well. Where do you want to play? Somewhat isolated places make more sense, especially if we go with a more role-playing approach. For a purly tactical game, it doesn't matter so much, but would you even want story-telling then?
I think everyone enjoys the storytelling aspect to some extent, and no one would want to ditch it entirely. I'm a huge fan of the concept of changing the setting each game. A cult of the Old Ones as the scum team could be nice. Or a game taking place in deep space (Battlestar Galactica's cylons vs humans come to mind, or that Trilby game by Yahtzee that's set on a spaceship). Or another go at Agatha Christie-ish setting, say Orient Express for a change? Or something fairly close to the original Werewolf game setting, but with a slight tweak, e.g. a setting similar to The Village (which wasn't a very good movie but is creepy enough and it fits the game).

Hm, can't do something with the Old Ones, I don't know anything about them. Spaceship and Orient Express I considered already, too. And I think a Haunted House for Halloween?

Kastchey

Quote from: Sinitrena on Mon 03/09/2018 22:53:34
The nurse seems strong when you describe it like that, but for the nurse's powers to take effect, the nurse and the scum side must decide on the same person in the same night, which becomes more likely the longer the game goes on. But the longer the game goes on, the more knoweldge everyone should have anyway.
Absolutely. This was purely from the scum side's POV, and that's why I said I'm not even convinced if in reality it's that much of an advantage. I suppose in any part of the mechanics, the less players the more difficult it is to balance things out, too.

Quote from: Sinitrena on Mon 03/09/2018 22:53:34
Quote from: Kastchey on Mon 03/09/2018 22:06:57
Agreed! It's a very interesting concept. Imagine: "Oh damn, I'm now convinced that you were right to accuse X but alas, I cannot change my vote anymore! :<"
That's why I'm hesitant with this option and why I didn't use it in earlier rounds and why I call it a risk.
I meant it more as a way for players to make up a convenient excuse for their actions (or lack of thereof), but you do make a valid point. It's not unlikely that it might cause a degree of frustration in some cases.

Quote from: Sinitrena on Mon 03/09/2018 22:53:34
Hm, can't do something with the Old Ones, I don't know anything about them. Spaceship and Orient Express I considered already, too. And I think a Haunted House for Halloween?
Yeah, a haunted house for Halloween sounds great. As for the Old Ones, they were just a very specific example of a more general context that can be summed up as, for example, "members of an evil cult worshipping a dark god pick up victims/sacrifice for their ritual murder each night and need to be tracked down before they kill off half the local community".

VampireWombat

Old Ones brings me to thinking of the Dreams in the Witchhouse. I wonder if something similar could be adapted somehow. Admittedly I've never actually read the story and have only seen the episode of Masters of Horror, and listened to the rock opera... many times.

cat

So, a bit late but nonetheless my comments:

First of all: Sinitrena, you did a fantastic job as a game host! You managed to set up a great mood and role playing was so much fun.

I started this game with a lot of enthusiasm and tried my best to help Mandle by arguing in his favour and convincing other people that he was on the good side. Of course Stupot would pick me to blame as murderer, it was just the logic thing to do. But when Mandle chose me as the one who should be lynched next, it was like a slap in the face. I was basically punished for being active and enthusiastic about something. I regretted all my effort I put into the game so far and the time I wasted with it. I was so pissed that I even took a break from the forum (which no one seemed to have noticed anyway). The good thing is: once I've cooled off my head again, I've realized how much more time I have for family/work/hobbies when I'm not wasting it in the forums.

If I had more free time, I'd love to play a real murder mystery game (with a scripted story where you have to find out who did it and where there are no tactics) as I really enjoyed the role playing aspect. But I will not join another werewolf game.

tzachs

Quote from: cat on Sun 09/09/2018 21:00:51
I was so pissed that I even took a break from the forum (which no one seemed to have noticed anyway).
I noticed 😥

Mandle

Quote from: cat on Sun 09/09/2018 21:00:51
But when Mandle chose me as the one who should be lynched next, it was like a slap in the face.

It was nothing personal.

I honestly thought it might be a strategic play by Stupot to clear you from suspiscion in the event that you were his partner.

I'm really saddened that you felt that way but, yeah, I'll agree that this game is probably not for you if it affects you on a negatively emotional level.

It's only fun if everyone can have a laugh about suspecting/backstabbing each other once it's over.

EDIT:
Spoiler
Oh, and I also noticed your absense from the forums but it wasn't long enough yet to start a "Where's Cat?" thread.

I guess, in the back of my mind, I noticed that you went "missing" after you jumped out the window in the game but I suppose I thought it was coincidence because I really didn't think anyone would have such a strong negative reaction to events in the game that it could make them quit the AGS forums, if even for a while. :~(
[close]

Riaise

Sorry to hear that, cat. :( I think Cassie felt a similar way after she played. She felt so stressed and paranoid about the game that it was affecting her in real life.

Perhaps in the future we can create a more roleplay based game, where the "murderer" is a made-up character, rather than one of the players, and we have to work out their identity through clues and puzzles. Sort of like some of the cases we've had in the Black Riddles thread before.

Mandle

Quote from: Riaise on Mon 10/09/2018 14:03:41
Perhaps in the future we can create a more roleplay based game, where the "murderer" is a made-up character, rather than one of the players, and we have to work out their identity through clues and puzzles. Sort of like some of the cases we've had in the Black Riddles thread before.

Already on it!

More details to come over the next couple of days!

cat

This sounds absolutely awesome, Mandle!
I've played a few of those games together with friends in real life (including dressing up as the character and talking in a weird pseudo-italian accent the whole evening when the game took place in a Mafia setting).

Kastchey

Quote from: tzachs on Sun 09/09/2018 22:00:52
Quote from: cat on Sun 09/09/2018 21:00:51
I was so pissed that I even took a break from the forum (which no one seemed to have noticed anyway).
I noticed 😥
I'm pretty sure everyone noticed, cat :< If we hadn't noticed or cared, we would have just happily bragged about this turn of events after the game ended.
It's good to see you back and eager to play another (perhaps less aggressive) session.

(For the records, it wasn't as much that we deliberately tried to make you look guilty, it was a side effect of our attempt to save Stu's behind for one more day. We did consider you very likely to be Mandle's psychic accomplice back then, so we just hoped we'd hit the nail on the head. Imagine how it would make Mandle look like had we been correct! ;))

Sinitrena

I'm sorry you didn't enjoy the game, cat, and I hope Mandle's Murder Mystery will be fun for you and everyone else.

I said I would start a new game around this time now, but I realized that I don't have time in the next couple weeks. So if someone else wants to take over for a round, please go ahead. But as Mandle is running the Murder Mystery game right now, maybe this is enough. And I promise I'll be back for a Werewolf game next month for Halloween.

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