The New Mp3 Thread!

Started by Sylpher, Mon 11/08/2003 04:40:08

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Dmitri

this is the funniest thing I've seen since men in tights :D

Now all you Sylphers, settle, no need to get our backs up over a little mp3 controversy

I reckon if the technology's there, it's there to be used, note, this does not apply for military technology, which should never be used

I mean the truth is there are arguments for both sides, yes there will be the file sharers who will 'accidentally' share copyrighted material, but there will also be people like Sylpher no.1 who just uses mp3's for personal use

And it's unfair that Sylpher no.1 should be punished because someone that he doesn't know, or ever will know wants illegal mp3's
Pretzels :B

veryweirdguy

#21
This is the funniest thing I've read today. Well done Sylph, you've pointed out everything perfectly.

Also, shitar, your monitor is probably broken. Go and buy a new one. And a new PC just in case. And make sure you find one with 'YABB forum postal view win upgrade version 5.53'

Also, you are an idiot.

DGMacphee

Either Sylph is making an insightful point or all the recent tension has driven him insane in a Col Kurtz-like way!
ABRACADABRA YOUR SPELLS ARE OKAY

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"Ah, look! I've just shat a rainbow." - Yakspit

remixor

Writer, Idle Thumbs!! - "We're probably all about video games!"
News Editor, Adventure Gamers

Dmitri

Pretzels :B

DGMacphee

ABRACADABRA YOUR SPELLS ARE OKAY

DGMacphee Designs - http://www.sylpher.com/DGMacphee/
AGS Awards - http://www.sylpher.com/AGSAwards/

Instagame - http://www.sylpher.com/ig/
"Ah, look! I've just shat a rainbow." - Yakspit

Femme Stab Mode >:D

1.Sylpher, that rocks
2.MP3 is a legal format. It's okay if you paid for the disks. It's okay to download them. It's NOT okay to make them off a copyrighted disk that you still have to pay for and distribute them,so if you're like me and download MP3s in large numbers (what? I like to listen to music while I work :P ) you're innocent, and some artists actually offer ALL of their MP3s for download for free, like t.a.t.u. for example.  
3. MP3 is a great format, it's relatively small (compared to WAV) and that's about all I know about it.
So, what's wrong with MP3s? Artists make very little money off these songs. They sell them to a company that distributes them and pays the artist a very small amount compared to what they make. Each CD has about a half a cent worth of songs. Everything else is marketing, album cover designs and more marketing. Artists make all their money in live concerts, so making MP3s is not stealing from the artists.  To record a disk costs less than 10 cents. The companies steal from the people so the people are stealing back.
NANANANANANA ASSHOLE!

shitar

QuoteThe companies steal from the people so the people are stealing back
Amen! The Truth is Out There! And I think femme just found it.
MIRC: #ags #agsfun #hello #agsnude #agscake

Darth Mandarb

Fem said it all!  Let's steal back!  I download mp3 like a madman!!  I go to as many concerts as I can to support the artists I like because that's where they get their money!

My analogy:
The music industry needs to realize they're in the business of selling music, not selling CDs.  If the railroad tycoons of a hundred years ago would have realized they were in the transportation business, not the train business, we might well be driving around in a Union Pacific Corvette or a SantaFe Explorer instead of Chevy or Ford.

The Solution:
I think the solution could be any combination of these ...
1) lower the prices of CDs to something like $3.99.  Sure it's 1/4 of the price they are now, but you'd probably sell 5 times as many.  And that's a bigger profit!
2) start offering a membership service (online) where you can get mp3 for download.  It would be a yearly fee (not per song)
3) Include the mp3s of each song on the CD as well.

cheers,
dm

TerranRich

Wow.

An elder does this, and everybody thinks it's funny that he wasted a shitload of bandwidth.

If a newbie ever did this, all HOLY HELL would break loose!

Huh.
Status: Trying to come up with some ideas...

Trapezoid

#30
That's because he MKAES GAMES AND HAS TEH RESPECT!!!!11111
Did you know that you don't even have to read people's posts? Whenever somebody posts something, just look at their screen names and try to remember if they've completed any games. It's so much easier than reading what they say and judging it and all that crap.

Edit: PS, this post is sarcastic.

MachineElf

#31
Ok, let's make things a little clearer here...

1: The law of digital music (we can just say mp3 so that you know what we're talking about...) is slightly different between nations, but basically it's legal, or at least not quite unlegal, to download a song to your harddrive, but illegal to share songs from your harddrive. In some countries (EU wants all their members to follow this) it's also illegal to download a song and burn it to a cd. RIAA and IFPI wants to make every part of it illegal but haven't quite succeded yet, at least not in Europe (don't know about the laws in the states, so fill me in if you know).

2: When legally distributing a song there are a few problems. All copyright owners (composers, publisher, record company) should have their share as well as the performers. In Sweden this has become a big problem which means that if you want to distribute music on the net legally you have to pay absurd amounts of money (on a per download basis). Again, I'm not sure how this works in the rest of the world, but I believe the problem is quite the same. Anyway, that means you, as consumer, will have to pay more money but will get less, no CD that is. Just a bunch of 1s and 0s.

3: There are legal ways of downloading music off the net. Check out http://www.pressplay.com .  There's another one as well, just don't remember its name. Question is: Would you pay for it? Probably not. We are just so damn used to get those files for free that it's just not an option. Well, the service on that site kinda sucks anyway, but I don't believe that's the big issue. It's just basic internet behaviour (it's pretty ironic we pay enormous amount for one short SMS, but would rage if someone said you'll have to pay to send an e-mail, no matter how long - there's internet behaviour for you!). We simply believe internet to be free.

4: Mp3 is a decent format and it's not free. The format itself is owned by Fraunhofer Institutes which have been trying to get a few bucks out of the extensive use of mp3s around the world. Every time a mp3 is encoded the encoder is supposed to pay to Fraunhofer. If you make an mp3-player you should pay to Fraunhofer (that's why there's a version of AGS without mp3 support). Ogg, however is a free format. Better sound quality as well.

Ok, I'll just end here and make a little resolution out of this morale talk. Do I think mp3 downloading is bad, then? Nope. But I do think it will somehow turn the music industry upside down. We see the signs already: Most of the industries incomes comes from reissues, less and less new artists get record deals with the big ones. Hopefully all this will result in creativity over money. Less big idols, more good music.
Happy illegal downloading, friends!

(for some free mp3:s you can always go here: http://www.soundclick.com/coma  ;)   )

--- ADDITION ---
You'd also be surprised how few albums and artists that actually break even (money spent gets back). The companies lives off the big artists.
There are 10 kinds of people in the world: Those who understand binary and those who don't.

shitar

QuoteIf a newbie ever did this, all HOLY HELL would break loose!
Hell is holy?
MIRC: #ags #agsfun #hello #agsnude #agscake

Ghormak

It's funny to see there being actual debating about MP3 in this thread when clearly Sylpher was just posting to show how predictable such a debate would be.

Read Sylpher's posts. It's about as far as any real debate on this matter would ever go anyway.

Kudos Sylph, I was once thinking about doing something similar.
Achtung Franz! The comic

Visti

I once had an MP3. I liked it. Still, I don't see the point of the direction this thread has taken.

MachineElf

Dammit, of course I know Sylpher were sarcastic when making this thread, but he also said in another thread that he wanted to participate in the mp3-thread that was closed. I too like to discuss this matter, so why not here? The thread hasn't been closed yet (though it by all rules should, I guess).
So instead of saying "WOWO!!!11!!! SLYPH, THATS SSOOOO PHUNNY!!!!11!!!1!!!" I try to discuss. If someone wants to discuss to, fine! We have a discussion. If you don't, well, there's no discussion. Big deal. 200 keyboard presses in vain, but so what?

Visti: What direction are you talking about?
There are 10 kinds of people in the world: Those who understand binary and those who don't.

Sylpher

Perhaps a bit of explaining..

First of all sorry chris for wasting your space and bandwidth. I hope you understand I was trying to get a point across and not double my post count in a matter of mins!

Second. I originally tried to get someone to fight with me in an attempt to let everyone see how silly they were being. After everyone declined I decieded to argue with myself...I thought it was funny...

Third, mp3s is a hard subject to tackle. if it was so simple the issue woulda been resolved Three years ago...

My feelings on the subject, which is strickly on a musician level and nothing close to legality, is the more people that hear my music the better. It is funny to see how many artist out there make music for a living and how many make music because they love it.

Which is unfair a bit. Not every case is the same but...

As Vargtass brought up it is very true. Many beggining bands take out a load of sorts. The record company doesn't pay for shit. You have to buy your equipment, the cost of cd's, radio play, Mtv play...ect. They give you a contract, or maybe better to say a budget, of 500,000.

Half a million dollars. To make music videos, Pay for recording time and all I mentioned above. As well as an artist you have to pay the record company every single dime back. This is why you see so many 'One hit wonders' they make a song that does really well...so the record company keeps pumping them with money and when they don't make hit number 2...they are S.o.l...Broke and having to work at Wal-mart.

So, in the end, the artist gets the crappy end of the deal no matter what. They get considered a 'sell out' if they choose all the paths to start making a profit on there music to be able to continue making it. Or they die off in a hole because they can't keep up with bills.

With that said back to mp3's. The record companies need a constant flow of money. So they can keep there current big sellar artists happy and recruit new artist they can milk a hit or two out of. Mp3's threaten this because if everyone downloads and nobody buys Mr. Donald "rich ass" Rackstein will lose his 16 gold plated cars and fancy office.

So they will fight against it until either A. nobody uses it anymore or B. they win. No matter what we do or say is gonna change that. If cd sales sky rocket the next 4 years straight it doesn't matter. These are business men. They have to protect there assest and mp3's are a threat.

Like I mentioned before..Record companies freaked out when tape decks had a record option and they faught that to the death...look around...if you own a tape deck still or go into a store that sells them look at them. They still have the record option!

Movie houses flipped when VCR's came with record options...How many TV shows, videos, whatever have you recorded with a VCR...Did VCR's have there record option removed?

Cd/Dvd burners...Still around and will always bearound til someone replaces them.

Back in the 80's (Something in which metallica no less got famous with) they have these huge music rings. You would get on a huge list with other people...Someone would start off and send a tape...maybe a demo of a new band whatever to a person. They would make a copy then they send it along to the next person...Sound sorta familiar?

My point in all this is that p2p and mp3's will be faught nothing can change that. but all the same they will still exist nothing will change that. The RIAA has to fight them because it is what they won't win. The battle of what exactly is copyright goes back way before napster...and it turns out the same every time.

There are a couple things I do disagree with as far as p2p and digital music goes..

Sneaky 'tech's' or publisher who release the songs or unreleased songs or unfinished or even personal songs...

I have wrote many songs for my friends, family and previous significant other...If someone gave these songs out without my permission I;d be pissed too. I did not release that song to the public...I did not write it for everyone to hear...it is personal and should be kept that way.

People who try to 'force' there song on you by naming it something like..

Tool - Sacktarigous (New never heard crap!!)

And onions...who the hell likes onions?

(I didn't reread this so I may ramble a bit...but I had to rewrite it twice cause my modem is a dirty dirty whore so bare with me)

remixor

I'm not even really sure if this thread is intended for actual opinions anymore, but what the hell.  My opinions on this matter are very unpopular, but that doesn't bother me.  I believe that downloading mp3s of songs you don't own is wrong (I don't think it matters whether it's technically illegal or legal).  That's not to say I mind if people download a few songs off an album, decide they like it, then buy the album.  That's what EVERYONE says that do, but realistically that's not how it is at all.  People try to say crap like they download mp3s as a form of social protest or something; no, they get them because it's free and easy.  People say "Oh, well, the artist gets hardly any money anyway, so I download mp3."  Great.  So they hardly make any money at all, so let's deprive them of what they DO make?  Wonderful strategy.  Sylpher, I understand your point about making music because you love it vs. making music because you make a living, but I think that IS unfair (as you mention).  I mean, people need to make a living, plain and simple.  If you go broke because nobody buys your albums, you can't AFFORD to make music because you love it.  My goal in life is to support myself by being in a band, and while the whole "everybody gets music for free" thing is nice, I guarantee you that if I ever get an album released, it will mean a whole lot more to me if a fan goes out and buys an album rather than stealing it off the internet.  And what about all the independant bands who own the rights to their songs, who aren't signed to major labels, who DO make more per CD than the bands on big labels (btw, I myself would rather be signed to an indy label).  Is it right to steal their material?  The whole "evil record company" thing kind of falls apart there, and I don't believe for a SECOND that people go out of their way to research what labels all the bands they like are on, so they can decide accordingly whose albums to buy and whose to steal.  In fact, I have observed that people who download a lot of mp3s and only buy few albums are MORE likely to buy the "big" artists who already have more money and are on big labels.  Hooray.  I do think the recording industry is a big load of shit and labels are going to have to seriously change their methods.  It would be nice to be so optimistic that I could believe that people use that as a reason, instead of a rather weak excuse, for downloading mp3s of songs they do not own, but unfortunately I don't think that's the case.  At least the record company gives them a few cents.  You don't give them anything.  I'm not defending the record companies, but I don't really know if things are getting much better in the industry.  If they do, I will be the first one to throw a party, believe you me, and I hope that's the case.  I still don't think it's an excuse to steal music.  And I know that people still go to concerts and so forth, but, come on, touring does not make much money either!  One of the main reasons artists tour is to support their current recordings.  And so-called "facts" like "a CD costs 10 cents to make" does not take into account the enormous expense that goes into actually RECORDING the damn thing.  And what about studio musicians who work for royalties?  They make no money on tours, or merchandise, or anything!  They only make money if people buy the CDs.

I think a big problem with the internet is that it gives people an unwarranted sense of entitlement.  Now people think they have the right to get any digital content for free, be it music, movies, software or anything else, all things that real people with real families and real responsibilities put in a lot of real money and real time and real effort to create--just so you can get it for free and claim some sort of righteous vigilante ownership?  

I don't mean to accuse anyone else here;  I mean, it's not like I don't have tons of friends who download mp3s.  It doesn't affect my opinions of people, but I still think I have very real reasons for feeling the way I do.  I used the pronoun "you" a lot because I wasn't sure what else to use, so of course nobody should take anything I said here personally.  I know I'll probably take a lot of shit for this post, and I don't even know if I should have put it in this thread.  So be it, I guess.
Writer, Idle Thumbs!! - "We're probably all about video games!"
News Editor, Adventure Gamers

Femme Stab Mode >:D

I used to pay for CDs but right now I'm saving up because I'm moving out in a few months and moving into a student commune. With the price that CDs are sold at it's hard to afford good music. It's like taxes - if the taxes are high, more people avoid them. Same with CDs - the prices are inhumane, so people avoid paying.
NANANANANANA ASSHOLE!

MachineElf

No offense taken, remixor!

I too would like to make a living off what I love doing: making and playing music. The hard facts, though, are that there are just a very few people who actually does this. Especially on independent labels. Even pretty big artists have crappy part time jobs.
This is, of course, no way of justifying downloads. Rather the opposite, IF it would really matter. It's always been like that, really.
(let me state an opinion of mine regarding idols, as they are the ones who actually lives off being artists. I think idolization has nothing to do with music, but only with marketing. That's also why see people rather buying the big artist's CD:s. Idolization. You'd rather own a CD by an idol, there's no logic or thought in it. On the other hand, people download a lot more from big artists as well, I the percentage is kinda the same)

Actually, the independent labels seem to be the ones most adaptive to the new technology and instead of fearing and waiting for jurisdictions they see the whole thing as a resource. Music from independent labels are also harder to find on file sharing networks so losses never gets as big as for the big companies.

With the new technology at hands, I would like to see more direct ways of paying for music. A network of indie labels (as the major ones unfortunately never would do this to a beginning) selling music on the net. Payment should be quick and easy as well, by mobile would be a great option (though the network owners takes overprices for sms:es) or some kind of account system where you pay every month for the music you've downloaded or by PayPal of course. Prices must be under CD price and sound quality perfect (high bitrate ogg would be perfect). You should be able to download the song multiple times, in case your harddrive crashes etc. This could also work for other digital media as well. Computer games for example. Download the game non-boxed, manuals in pdf etc. It all has to be international as well and work perfectly all over the world. No physical distribution costs at all, just a big-ass server and a damn good connection. (please don't steal this idea, I might just start a company like this one day)

I think I'll end this here... Uhm, I just want to talk a little more about internet behaviour, which remixor brought up as well. I think the most important thing after FREE is EASY. You can get damn annoyed if you don't find that song you wanted from DC, and once you've got it - well, the quality sucks and you'll have to do it again. How about you search your song and four clicks later you're beginning to download a high quality version at high speed? I could pay a few pennies for that (if pennies were our currency...). Especially if I knew the people involved get their share. EASY.

Anton out.
There are 10 kinds of people in the world: Those who understand binary and those who don't.

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