Topic: GTD: Minority characters in adventure games

[GarageGothic]

The same with Malcom from Kyrandia 3. The same with Laverne or Hoagie or Bernard. Maybe it's just me but if the game doesn't give me a reason to think about the sexuality of the character then there's no reason for me to question it.

Aw, come on, surely Malcolm was gay, and thinking about it, probably Brandon from Kyrandia 1 as well! Man, those Kyrandia games are SO gay Seriously though, in fact, I had thought of using the Day of the Tentacle example myself, but I chose Sam & Max instead. Both games are so far from the realm of sexuality (It's probably a good thing that DOTT isn't a hentai game, I don't even want to THINK about what they'd do with those tentacles - and what about Bernard and that hamster?). But sexual orientation was really just an example. DOTT uses plenty of other stereotypes (nerds, roadies, geeky girls) as a shorthand to character - in fact, your first impression of the characters come from their VERY stereotypical visual appearance. Of course, later we learn to like them and to start to see them as individuals rather than types, which makes all the difference and is probably a good example of how minority sterotypes could be used in a positive way - Will & Grace did this with the Jack character (I know this isn't what you were saying, but I just thought it was an interesting angle). Learning to appreciate "the other" instead of just presenting more acceptable, veiled versions of it.

When I was little and played Zak McKracken I thought that Leslie and this other girl on the moon were lesbian, whereas the game was totally devoid of sexual innuendo

Funny, I had the same thought the first time I played it (11 or 12 years old). Except, making it even more queer, I never was quite sure if Leslie was a boy or a girl.

Seven, there's a black guy. Night of the Living Dead of all movies starred a black man AND a woman and it came out back in the crazy days! Boondock Saints, sure. And Willem is a main character and his journey is more important than his sexuality. Even terrible movies like Fifth Element had a black president who was also a terrible actor. Predator 2, Lethal Weapon, list goes on.

I won't comment on The Pelican Brief, because I fell asleep halfway through. As for your other examples, I do agree, except for two movies: Seven and Lethal Weapon. Lethal Weapon was a typical buddy movie, and black/white couples have more or less become part of that genre because much of the humour is based on the difference between the characters. (48 Hours, Money Train, White Men Can't Jump, Rush Hour 1 and 2 (ok, so Jackie's not exactly white, but still)). I think Seven played on these conventions within a very different storyline (Somerset, just like Murtaugh, is getting "too old for this shit" and is about to retire, and Mills, like Riggs - notice how even the names are similar - is his opposite, a man of action, kicking doors in rather than going by the book).
But of course there are movies with strong black main characters. Especially within comedy. Eddie Murphy and Whoopi Goldberg made TONS of movies in the 80's, and actually I'm quite surprised that there isn't a "wisecracking  black cop"-game out there.

[Pumaman]

one thing that really worries me, and which has only been present for several years now, is the ridiculously huge abundance of racial and sexual slurs used as casual slang on the internet.  I'm not much of a gamer anymore, but I know from personal experience that its just about impossible to play online games or visit many online forums without hearing phrases like "shtu the fuck up motherfcukcer nigger fag!!!11" being thrown about left and right.

I see what you're saying, but on the other hand I think to kids nowadays, terms like "gay", "fag" and "nigger" have probably lost their real meaning and are just used as insults. I'd wager a fair few children who say them don't actually know that 'gay' means homosexual or that 'nigger' means black - to them, they are just normal swear words.

Which is a bad thing, yes, but so long as they don't draw the association with the word's real meaning, it's not so important. Of course, a few years on they will discover the meaning and then it's up to them to decide whether to continue to use it as an insult.

Anyway, I guess my point is that there really is no chance of getting certain people to stop promoting the rampant and thoughtless use of stereotypes (which is facilitated by the essentially complete anonymity of the internet), so discussions such as this one are valuable and necessary.

Indeed, I think the discussion is definately worthwhile. However, it concerns me that people tend to read so much into the race or sexuality of characters in games or movies, and I'd like to think that if I made a game with a black character, for instance, people would just accept it for what it was, and not wonder why.

If I introduced a black character, his/her race would be bound to SIGNIFY SOMETHING - simply because for me black skin is not transparent, as I'm not used to seeing it everyday.

Interesting point, and I think that definately makes a difference to people's perceptions. If you grow up in a mixed-race area like I did, you see people of all races on a daily basis and it is just the norm.

But if the area you grow up in is predominately of a single race, that will be 'normal' and you will tend to notice and be curious when somebody 'different' comes along.

[Goldmund]

DOTT uses plenty of other stereotypes (nerds, roadies, geeky girls) as a shorthand to character - in fact, your first impression of the characters come from their VERY stereotypical visual appearance.

A jewish joke:
A friend shows an old Jew how to use a telephone back in times when telephones were novelty.
"See, you hold the receiver in your left hand and then, with your right hand, you dial the number."
"Left hand - receiver and right hand - dial? So what am I supposed to talk with?!"

Now, to get the joke you have to know that there was a common belief that Jews are keen to gesticulate when talking.

Weep out the stereotype and you have no joke. You have no story. No big deal in this case - but how about other stories? Movies, too?

The whole culture is based on generalisations, on finding patterns in the surrounding world. After autumn and winter and spring there is summer again, and so we have the abstract notion of a Year.
Stories - as myths - need generalisations if only to counter them.
(btw., isn't it funny that ALL women in Blade Runner are androids?)

Thus, GG, your game with a policeman coming back to his lover would be considered superb just for reversing the typical situation, for this subversive TRICK. Wipe out stereotypes in other products and you would have to rely only on other aspects of your game, the shock value dissapears.

Very often you find a movie artistic just because it acts against stereotypes and reverses the typical situation - but without those stereotypes in existance, this "added value" would not exist.
I'm sure you know about Jung's archetypes and Propp's morphology of a fairy-tale. If those two were right, stories work just because we have these set patterns in our minds that let us recognize the BASIC (or the subversion of the basic) token-story.

Of course, true art is about rewritting the reality from the scratch. Trying to forget about set patterns and expressing own experience. Stereotypes are just very easy tools to evoke the instant reply, to get what you want from the receiver of your art in short time. This is why many people consider great writers like Mann or Proust very boring. No instant recognition. What are those two babbling about?

To sum up, I believe that stereotypes are impossible to get rid of - at least in popular culture. I also believe that stories cannot exist without the basic "stereotypes". But what we can fight for is changing them for better, less offensive and unjust.

[DGMacphee]

Eric:
Don't worry -- I wasn't strictly saying you thought Hitman was gay.

I thought he he didn't like the kiss from the prostitute because he didn't let his positive emotions seap through (after all, he was a hitman -- It's hard to love people when you kill for a living).

Then again, he dresses quite smoothly too (and he likes dry-cleaning) -- So, he might be gay.

Also, for a great movie on the whole black and white partnerships, see this film that started it all 'The Defiant Ones': http://www.imdb.com/Title?0051525

Or, see the film that one-uped it, 'In The Heat Of The Night': http://www.imdb.com/Title?0061811

These two films explored race during a time when black/white relations were at their most heated.

And Sidney Poitier is the man!

I loved him in 'In The Heat Of The Night' -- especially that scene where the investor slaps Sidney in the face and Sidney just slaps him back with the same gusto!

Gold:
I thought the same thing about the two girls on Mars in Zak Mackracken!  

And I agree on your points about stereotypes and re-writing reality.

However, I also enjoy some familiar patterns in fiction (as most people do).

Fiction that's overly-experimental leaves me cold -- Virginia Woolf's To The Lighthouse is great from an artistic standpoint, but I didn't find it a very rewarding experience.

I had to force myself to read it because I wasn't interested in what happened next -- The book would elaborate on the different characters' viewpoint but would never really go anywhere witht he story.

In the end, it took me five years to read completely.

On the other hand, I enjoyed Marquez's 'One Thousand Years of Solitute' because it did the opposite, it would explore numerous characters, but would constantly move -- In fact, you could read only a few pages to find the story has passed several years.

I guess the thing I've learned about writing is this: Do whatever you want (stereotypical or experiemental), but above all, don't be boring.

GG:
The thing about DOTT was that it semi-twisted the stereotypes.

Bernard was a nerd, but he was a nerd with balls -- Like his attempt to rescue Dr Fred from the feds, or his knife-fight with the inflatable clown.

Hoagie was a typical roadie, but his type was contrasted with his setting (contemporary character trapped in a ye olde setting [like Simon The Sorcerer]) -- I believe comedy theorists call this the 'Fish Out Of Water' scenario.

And Laverne was just... strange -- I don't think she was a geeky girl, but just... a weirdo.

I guess that's why I liked her.  

[Goldmund]

This is a side-comment of sorts: we're having a great discussion and all, but maybe we can make the next GTD more prescriptive? I asked for this before and here I am, writing 10-pages long abstract articles about the way people perceive reality

[DGMacphee]

Rock on!

[GarageGothic]

I think that was an ok discussion, all things considered. A bit disorganized, but I'm entirely to blame for not being enough to the point in my first post.

I choose Goldmund to host next week's discussion, if he's up to it that is. Maybe he can show us all how to be prescriptive rather than descriptive.

[Stickieee]

From the few boards of Hitman I played I figured that he was gay. Does this matter at all to the gameplay? Not at all.

Ah, no, it doesnt matter to gameplay, but does it matter to story and character development? Certainly.

Think of Jake McUrk, a good-looking male in his mid-thirties. Why does he live alone in quite a big apartment? He has an attractive female companion at work, why doesn't he hit on her? Why is Jake such good friends with the scientist-inventor Lucas, and invites him to his own apartment? Maybe Jake has hidden thoughts! If I recall correctly, Jake isn't even interested in the Jenna.mpg file.

So, how does it affect Pleurghburg's story that the main character seems to be gay? Would character development be different if he wasn't?

All I'm saying is that minority characters don't have to be exaggarated. Being gay doesn't mean you are overly sexual. In fact, society's pressure might make you want to surpress everything odd you feel. Like with Jake?

[Goldmund]

GarageGothic: Thanks, I'm sure I'll think of something.

As for prescriptive vs descriptive it's rather a matter of singular posts, because a discussion's subject can be always treated in both ways.
For example:

Subject: Minority Characters in AG

-descriptive answer:
Generally I find minority characters in AGs not very interesting. They're shallow and stereotypical (think Phantasmagoria2!) But it may be due to the society's line of thought, which usually takes for granted that gay men.... (and here 200 words more; I'm guilty of this approach)

-prescriptive:
One should avoid stereotypical portrayals of homosexual people in games, in order to enrich the general message. Don't make your gay wear flowery shirts and walk funny! I think it would be best if his sexual preference is revealed as a "surprise" for the player. How to do it? Here is how:...

The descriptive approach is great for scholars etc., but I think that as designers we could get more advantage from the second one.

[loominous]

How about including 'How to' in the topic to raise the discussion's constructive value?

[GarageGothic]

Just an addition:

The is a new article on minorities in video games (not adventure specific) on Gamasutra at http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20030827/adams_01.shtml

It may require login to read it.

[DeathWing]

Does anyone remember Lost in Time, the 1995 game from Sierra.  It had a black female as the main character.  I remember being suprised because the box art for the game had a much lighter skinned female who I would swear was white, or hispanice.  When playing the game I remember being a little upset that they had misrepresented the main character with the box art.  I had no problem playing a game with a black female character as the lead,   and was upset that they played the box art to the masses, as if no one would buy a game with a black girl on the cover.

[Barbarian]

Well, I just read through the messages on this subject, and there's no need for me to add much more except that, for me, it does not really matter if the main character is white, black, asian, indian, green, purple or otherwise.
Is the game enjoyable to play, regardless of the portrayed race or color of the character(s)? Then that's what mainly counts for me.

[Ali]

Does anyone remember Lost in Time, the 1995 game from Sierra.  It had a black female as the main character. 

I've been playing that game - I had no idea she wasn't white!

[MoodyBlues]

Thank you for bringing this up!  I had never given much thought to this subject before, as far as video games go.

You might have also mentioned that, while positive racial minorities in video games, television, and film are more common nowadays, there are very few mixed race couples.  The Terminal, which I saw last weekend, was the first movie I've seen where a Hispanic male falls in love with an African-American female.

I think it's best to simply treat characters as individuals, no matter what their gender, color, race, religion, or sexual orientation.  This will avoid both stereotyping and political correctness in addition to making them well-rounded characters.

EDIT:  Sorry, I didn't realize this was such an old post.

[Dave Gilbert]

I'm happy to see this thread as I seem to have missed it the first time around.  It gives me the opportunity to bring up something I've been wondering about.

I was pretty surprised at the reaction to Nishanthi in "Bestowers of Eternity."  Personally, I find her kind of boring.  When I was writing the game, I did my best to make her more interesting but I couldn't find the right places for it.  In the end, I just kept her as-is and hoped people wouldn't mind.

Since I released the game, I have gotten a number of emails from folks telling me that they find the Nishanthi character "absolutely fascinating".  This surprised me, obviously, and I wondered if the character's ethnicity had something to do with it.  Does the fact that she is a Indian woman make her more interesting?  If Nishanthi was a white woman, would she be just as fascinating? 

[GarageGothic]

Dave, I too thought that Nishanthi was a unique and original character. At least I've never encountered anyone like her in other games. And yes, it probably has something to with... well, not ethnicity as much as culture. I mean, it's not the color of her skin, it's the fact the she wears traditional Indian dress and as far as I remember, it also comes forth in the dialog - and the whole playing-the-flute-in-the-park deal seems somewhat... grounded in her culture as well.

It's rare to see non-westeners in games - unless you either meet them in their own part of the world (Heart of China, Riddle of Master Lu, Fate of Atlantis) or they have adapted to western cultural norms - Grace Nakimura comes to mind.

As a character (stereo-)type, Ninshanthi isn't very original - she's the nice older lady/man helping the player character out without asking anything in return. A mentor character of sorts. But the form is unusual. I don't think she would have been less interesting as a white woman, just different. Because her motivations would possibly be somewhat different - it's likely that you'd perceive her as a bit weird even.

[Mr. Mozzarella]

why are all characters to be considered straight until proven otherwise?

I think straight players consider the characters straight because being straight is "normal" for them. And they consider the character to be "normal" in every way and unless you have grown up with homosexuality being straight is normal to you and being gay is unnormal (I don't mean that in an offensive way, just to find an antonym). I have no idea how homosexual people think about that, whether they consider every game/film/book character as homosexual, because it's normal for them, or whether they know, that they are a minority and that the chances, that a random character belongs to "their" minority as well, are little.

Players, readers, audience in general are assuming that an unknown character is like him- or herself as much as possible. When I play a game, read a book or whatsoever I also assume that the main character is good, just like I am   In games with a bad main character, it's already said before you start playing it. So as long as no one said that the player character is a bad one, I assume that he's good.
And it's the same with sexual orientation/race/etc.

[BernieLaraemie]

I'm not sure.  I'm a Female to Male transsexual, and a gay man, and yet I assume every character is going to be straight because that's the "normal" in the media culture.

But then, on the same token, there are always gay people in my games, stories, etc.  My main character in Cream Puff of Doom is gay (he sorta has to be, lol) and my concer when I write is that I've put too much gay into it

So, I'd say people assume that characters are the "norm" (read: stereotype) until proven otherwise.

~~Bernie

[RickJ]

Perhaps the best way to rid the world of all these stereotypes and prejudices would be simply not to bring them to people's attention. That way, children would not be influenced by prejudice and would grow up continuing to simply see everybody else as human beings.

To me CJ's conclusion is just common sense.   My wife is from Bolivia and has a southern European complection or perhaps a little darker.   She  is quite capable of dealing with (and pretty much immune to) people who are explicitly racist towards her.   What really bothers her are well meaning, patronizing indivduals who subscribe to a "liberal political philosphy (US context)".   This kind of racism is just below the surface and insiduous.   When confronted, individuals who practice this, quickly hide behind their politics.  I know it really bothers her when people underestimate her or are patronizing.   

I think people should be creative and use whatever characters they concieve of or think will fit the story.  Artificially inserting ethnic characters into a story, IMHO, is patronizing at best.   

So you may ask why I gratuitously used a dark skinned girl for the main character of the new DemoQuest?    Well it didn't have anything to do with race or anything like that.  While surfing the forums one day I say this beautiful character drawn by a relatively new AGS member, Pttr.   I PMed him that his character was beautiful and asked if he would be willing to make a character for the new DemoQuest.   He said that he would and asked if I wanted to use the charcter that I liked so much.  I told him that would be fine and the rest is history (more or less).   

The bottom line:  It turned out the way it did because I found someone, Pttr, who would do character sprites and I really liked a prior pic done by Pttr.  Since Pttr already had some work done and had a vision this was the easiest thing to do.  Here is a poster with the original picture done by Pttr.