UN, US, WTF, ETC...

Started by DGMacphee, Fri 05/09/2003 16:03:39

Previous topic - Next topic

YOke

Farlander: You make some good points. This illustrates the problems that will occur when a country is "liberated".
You are a citizen of a country that until quite recently (historically speaking) was a dictatorship. I must confess that I don't know much spanish history so could you please tell me how you rid yourself of Franco. Did he just die, or what? ;)

DM: Who the terrorists are is all a matter of who you ask. I'm from Norway, and under WW2 we were occupied by the nazi's. We had resistance groups that fought the nazi's. Now since we won they are known as heroic freedomfighters, but if the nazi's won they would have gone down in history as the bad guys. As for the political situation in the US it looks very dubious to me. In a country that claims that everyone can be president a father is almost succeded by his son as head of the nation. Only interrupted by a representative of the other of the two(?!?!) partys (yes I know there are more, at least theoretically) who according to some sources is related to Georgie-boy, albeit distantly. (Still quite a coincidence.) When the Bush family also has close ties with the Bin Laden-family and, as I recently discovered, the Hinckley-family (Hinckley tried to shoot Reagan back when George the Elder was vice president) everything seems a bit too weird.
Maybe I've just heard too many conspiracy theories.
I certainly hope so, cause what happens in the US affects the world.

Enlightenment is not something you earn, it's something you pay for the rest of your life.

Darth Mandarb

It's all about perception I agree.  Although, I think an invasion of Iraq to remove a dictator differs quite a bit from crashing commercial airliners into buildings.

I hadn't heard about the connection between Hinkley and Bush ... what was the connection and where'd you hear about it?  I'm a historian and I would like to read about this!

QuoteMaybe I've just heard too many conspiracy theories.
Eh ... that's cool.  Conspiracy theories are fun :)

cheers,
dm


Pumaman

Quote from: Andail on Tue 09/09/2003 15:31:22
When it comes to the debate itself, all this thread has done is making me more sure on whom I respect and whom I have some difficulties respecting, seriously.

I do believe we could lock the thread, though, as freaking usual

Personally, I think debate threads are great - they give people an opportunity to express their opinions and back them up with evidence. It informs people who are undecided about an issue, of the arguments both for and against it.

The golden rule is simply not to take anything personally. If somebody says something you disagree with, post and explain why. If you find yourself becoming too emotional about it, step back from the debate for a while and return later.

For example, a friend of mine is a die-hard Socialist, whereas I'm a Conservative. We've discussed and argued the issues many times. The outcome of it is that I respect his opinion, and he (I hope) respects mine.

Whilst discussing something is not likely to change your opponent's mind, a well-formed argument can make them step back and think twice about part of their viewpoint - then everyone's a winner.

Nacho

Quote from: YOke on Tue 09/09/2003 20:00:01
I must confess that I don't know much spanish history so could you please tell me how you rid yourself of Franco. Did he just die, or what? ;)

The history of Spain in the XXth century is quite curious... Let me explain it in short: :)

1935:Radicals groups of "socialists" kill the main "conservative" opositor.

1936:The socialist party wins the elections, but the fascists start a revolt. The General Mola, leader of the revolt, but quite moderate and "sensible" in comparision with Franco, dies while flying to Portugal to Spain in an aircrash. Franco becomes the leader of the Fascist revolt.

1939: Franco enters in Madrid, he becomes the "Caudillo", the ruler... General Mola wanted the Monarchy to rule Spain after the war. Let´s remember that Franco had several problems to cross Morocco to Spain during the first months of the revolt... Who helped him? Hitler´s Kriegsmarine.

And it was a "socialist" terrorist strike to a German ship in Mallorca who encouraged Hitler to aid to Franco. We have to examples of two terrorist strikes of the "good" ones (people who fighted for freedom against fascists) which worked totally in the oppossite direction of what they wanted.

Let´s remember that it was when a netherlander anarchist burned the Reichstag at 1936, when Hitler "realised" of the need to use iron fist against the others... Thir example.

So... Terrorist strikes usually turn against the aims of the people who does them.

Franco died in 1975, but the democracy started in 1978. Fortunately, the person who Franco decided to keep his regime surprised the World giving us democracy. That person (Former President Suárez) And the King (He aborted a coup d´Etat at 1981) are very loved in Spain.


Now... let me say that this thread has not much to see with the subject, but I wanted to tell st of the Spanish modern history and how useless terrorism is. Let´s remember that Ghandi leaded a peacefull revolt in India. That´s the way to follow. Terrorist are not romantic fighters for freedom, they put lives in danger, generally not the lives of the "bad guys", but also the lives of the innocents of the people on both sides of the fight.
Are you guys ready? Let' s roll!

DGMacphee

#64
Quote from: SSH on Tue 09/09/2003 14:27:56
Quote from: DGMacphee on Tue 09/09/2003 13:50:30
I'd rather not start any thread that tries to bring some intelligent discussion to the forum.
I dunno, you don't want forum games, you don't want intelligent discussion, you don't want people who haven't finished a game demanding respect.... what do you want?

But I do want intelligent discussion -- you misunderstand what I'm saying.

What that quote means is I'd rather forget about trying to bring intelligent discussion here if it's going to lead to (as Andail says) a two-sided biased deabte.

And to clairfy your two other points:
1. Yes, I think those word games are a waste of time (for reasons I've just stated in the 'word game' thread)

2. I'm not just talking about finishing games -- I'm talking about contribution to a game.

In other words, how can users take someone seriously when they contribute nothing to a game?

For example, to my knowledge, c_leks hasn't made a game, yet he's contributed voice works and music to some games.

After all, this IS a forum on making adventure games, right?

But to give you an idea of what I mean on intelligent discussion, I liked topics like 'Homestar Runner: Too popular?' or 'the SARS-virus will blossom man...' or 'Meet and greet ffs!' -- They had some value to them other than the cheap thrill you get from a word game or the endless banter you get from a biased debate (Mainly cause debates like this one are turning out to be a "You're wrong" "No, you're wrong!" deal, while the previously mentions topics allow room for some kind of expansion of ideas and discussion).

Darth:
QuoteI think (and this is in no way a jab at you DG) the wording of the subject is the cause.

In hindsight, yes the wording is a little bad -- I'll change it.
ABRACADABRA YOUR SPELLS ARE OKAY

DGMacphee Designs - http://www.sylpher.com/DGMacphee/
AGS Awards - http://www.sylpher.com/AGSAwards/

Instagame - http://www.sylpher.com/ig/
"Ah, look! I've just shat a rainbow." - Yakspit

YOke

Now this is turning in to the kind of discussion that I like! :)

Farlander: Thank you for giving me some insight into the political situation in Spain. I've thought about it a lot since I visited Spain earlier this year. I noticed that the resistance in Spain against the war in Iraq was quite big amongst the people, even though the government backed it up. I agree that Ghandi's way is by far the best way so far, but still Ghandi was a leader with people following him as sheep. India was just lucky that he was a good man. As soon as he's dead they start building nukes.  :-\
Terrorists are people who tries to fight what is (or is concieved) as the opposition on the oppositions terms. It would truly be great if nobody resorted to violence at all...

Darth: The Hinkley-clan was/is an oil-family just as the Bush-family. So was the family of Lee Harvey Oswald if I remember correctly. (?)
Some claim that theese assasinations is a result (I'm watching the topic disappear in the distance) of "Project Monarch". The mindwashing project the government is supposed to be behind.

DG: Well... I've seen politicians behave worse than this. ;)


But please, in any case. Don't let this become a thread about wether this should be a thread or not. Reset all diplomatic relations, and get back to topic. If you want to hate someone, do it silently in a corner. This is really an interesting topic, and this is a good chance to find out what people in other countries think.


Enlightenment is not something you earn, it's something you pay for the rest of your life.

DGMacphee

Quote from: YOke on Wed 10/09/2003 14:14:32
DG: Well... I've seen politicians behave worse than this. ;)

And on that note, I'm running for the Australian Senate.  ;D
ABRACADABRA YOUR SPELLS ARE OKAY

DGMacphee Designs - http://www.sylpher.com/DGMacphee/
AGS Awards - http://www.sylpher.com/AGSAwards/

Instagame - http://www.sylpher.com/ig/
"Ah, look! I've just shat a rainbow." - Yakspit

Pumaman

Quote from: Barcik on Fri 05/09/2003 16:21:56
I would just like to point out, that, however meaningless it is, I feel safer now.

Sorry to dredge this back up, but I just read this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3101364.stm

"Ahead of the war, says the report, Mr Blair was told the threat from al-Qaeda and allied terrorist groups would be made worse by invading Iraq.

The JIC assessed that al-Qaeda and associated groups continued to represent by far the greatest terrorist threat to Western interests, and that threat would be heightened by military action against Iraq."



Barcik

My words are taken somewhat out of context this way. I, as an Israeli person feel safer because Iraq posed a real military threat to my state, and the situation isn't the same with Britain. I am not sure I would have felt safer as a Brit.

Besides, there will always be a report in the media about how the goverment ignored intelligence warnings, no matter what the government does. It's a hot story. Had the UK not joined the US, newspapers would write on how this or that intelligence agency said that not attacking Iraq is raising the risk of terrorism.  
Currently Working On: Monkey Island 1.5

Pumaman

Indeed - good points.

I know this may sound rather naive, but why can't everyone stop bombing each other and just get along ._.

Barcik

That's where Las should say "Because X are humans, and Y are humans, and humans are idiots."
Currently Working On: Monkey Island 1.5

Nacho

Mmm... I don´t really see the point of Iraqui people bombing US troops... Let´s remember a Monthy Python sketch in Life of Brian:

(A terrorist leader for Palestine Freedom to his accollites)

-(Leader)What have the romans gave to us?
-(Accollite 1)The roads...
-(L)Ok, the roads, what else?
-(Accollite 2) The aqueduct!
-(L)Ok, the roads and the aqueduct, what else?
-(A1)Mmmm... the City shewer!
-(A2)Oh yeah, do you remember how bad the streets smell before?
-(L)Ok, Ok... but what else?
-(A1)The Wine!
-(Everybody) Oh yeah, the wine was good!
-(Everybody)The security, the irrigation, city lighting...
-Leader: Ok... but except the road, the aqueduct, thecity shewer, the wine, the citizen security, the irrigation, tjhe city lighting... What have gave us the romans?
-(A1) The peace!
-(Leader) The peace? Fuck you!

That is what now is happening in Iraq... Of course, the country will go better if they´re a US protectorate that an Islamic dictadure, but they can´t see it...

That makes me lay down, and then I have desires to arm both Feyaidines and Chiíes to let them kill theirselves.

Fortunately I have Andail, who is like my "socialist, pacifist alter-ego", I read his posts, and that evil desires pass away. ;D
Are you guys ready? Let' s roll!

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk