****Degree?***Bachelors?***What?********

[Meowster]

Well I thought it'd be a great idea to take a day of school, travel to Dublin and go to the open day of some of the colleges I want to go to. They're animation colleges... two of them, and I'm torn. Now here's the thing...

Dun Laoghaire
Dun Laoghaire is in a nicer area of Dublin than Ballyfermot, and has an intensive 4-year course covering all aspects of animation including classical animation, photoshop/flash, 3D studio max, other stuff. In the end, you're awarded a Bachelors something or other.

Ballyfermot
Ballyfermot is in a not-so-nice area of town, but it's one of the best three animation colleges in the world. True story. And much to my delight, the course there is endorsed by Walt Disney. My plan would be to take the Classical Animation course, which includes a bit of 3D animating, and then take the 3D animation night classes two days a week.

The Ballyfermot course is internationally acclaimed, and they get loads of Disney guys over to pep talk us and show us neat stuff. It's much more intensive, so it's a 2 year course as apposed to Dun Laoghaire's 4 years. Which is absolutely delighting, because it means I'll be in America by 22. Whoopee! It also means I'll be in America by 22 with a 3D animation course under my belt as well as proffesional classical animation Diploma ----

Now imagine a screech of brakes halting as I freeze. My eyes flash for a moment, and I go backwards over what I just said, repeatingly it silently in my mind.

Cue dramatic pause.

Then...

What the hell? Now I'm confused. So I need you good, helpful, smart people to help me.

What's the difference between a National Higher Diploma, a Bachelors and a Degree? If I do the diploma, don't I have to go on to get a degree anyway?

And which course would you go for, in my position? I'm not gonna make any decisions yet, but it's very important for me and I wanna make sure that next year, I make the right choice. Although the 2 year one is shorter, I will still be taking night classes to make up for material that would have been recieved in the Dun Laoghaire class. And why is Dun Laoghaire so hard to spell?

[Darth Mandarb]

I'd say go for the 2 year plan.  I think it's far better to just cram everything you can into the shortest ammount of time, get in, get it done, get out, and get on with life.

That's just my opinion.

And Dun Laoghaire is hard to spell because it has an odd grouping of consonents and vowels.  I think ...

dm

[PureGhostGR]

HND is the basically the first 2 years of a Bachelor. (theoretically you are supposed to be given a HND after finishing 2nd year).

Also a bachelor can be awarded with and without "honours", which is given only to above average students. (I think if you fail courses or you don't get good enough grades you can't get it).

Go for the 2 year course. You will learn alot more, and you will have the opportunity to make another choice about where to go next.

Once the second year is over you could apply to a different uni and get a bachelor just by doing an extra year. (for a 3 year course)

[Meowster]

I don't know if I want to just cram everything into a short space of time... I mean, oh man, College is gonna kick ass! But so in San Francisco. But my point is, the Ballyfermot course is a lot more intensive, but also a lot more concise. Dun Laoghaire does clay animation and crap like that I believe, which is something that I wouldn't need. Interesting, but I wouldn't need it.

But I really need to know the difference between Degrees, Bachelors Degrees, Diplomas and National Higher Diplomas. Because I wouldn't want to inadvertantly take the wrong course, and then realize at the end of a bunch of years, I'd only been taking home cookery lessons or something.

I though that version of Maya smelled fishy...

EDIT: *just saw above post*

Sooo... basically, a Bachelors is the one to aim for? After finishing the two year intensive classical animation course (plus night classes in 3D animation) I would then transfer for third year in a different college and do my Bachelors? And if I was very good I'd get an honours in a Bachelor Degree?

Excellent! I think I'm unconfused!

[Punch]

So here I come to cunfuse you again

I'm not entirely sure what it's like elsewhere, but here in Australia if you do a diploma and then transfer to a degree then you only get partial credit. So doing a two year diploma will probably mean that you start at around 2nd year uni, not first. I have a mate that did three years at tafe and got a couple of diplomas, and when he transferred to uni he started with 2nd Semester first year classes.

Generally speaking, degrees (or Bachelors, they're both the same thing) are higher qualifications than Diplomas.  Honours are usually offered if you have a credit average in your course. They also often require another year's worth of classes.

- Punch

[Meowster]

Oh man.

But I don't think Ballyfermot would only offer intensive, proffesional and indeed world acclaimed... Diplomas? They must plan to send us off somewhere else for the degree itself. And they would do that if it meant partial credit.

Guidance Counseller....

[TheYak]

I don't know about anyone else, but I would definately go to the place named Ball Yer Ferret

[DragonRose]

In Canada, you can only get a degree from a University, and then a diploma from a College.  If you've got the diploma, it in only gives you a few equivalency credits at university, but you aren't guaranteed to go to university.  

You get a bachelors if you take a three year course of study, and a bachelors with honours if you take four years.  Neither one is more intensive than the others.

[RickJ]

Yufster,

You need to end up with a Bachelors or higher degree from a university.  If you fail to do this you will consistently take a back seat to a steady stream of less talented folks than yourself.   Everyone in the professional world knows that there is a noticable difference in attitude, approach, professionalism between folks with 2 year degree's and four year degrees.  

Having said that, I started out with a two degree and it served me well.  When I transferred to university I lost one semester, would have been more if hadn't taken a whole bunch of classes that were prerequisites for each other.  

If you were to get the 2 year degree and then transfer to a university as you suggest, you will find yourself far ahead of your classmates.  The down side is that it may take 5 years to get the degree instead of 4.  You can minimize the loss by asking ahead of time what will transfer and what won't.  For example, in my second year of the 2 year degree, I took extra calculus classes which help quite a lot when I transferred.

My advice to you is to go to each of these places, find a sympathetic professor or teacher in each place.  Make it clear to them your intentions and ask their advice.   I don't know how much luck you will have with counsilors (damm spelling ) at these two schools.  Likely you will get canned answers and what you nee is a customized program.

Consider seeking a masters degree.  I got one sort of by accident  but have never regretted it.   Since you mentioned Disney and the US, let me recommend you take a look at Carnegie Mellon University in Pittsburgh Pensylvania.  There is a professor thetre named Randy Pausch (not sure about how to spell his name) who did a sabatical at Disney and is now on a mission to bring together people from multiple disciplines to produce digital entertainment software, virtual worlds, etc...  I am sure there are other places to get a Masters degree in your area oif interest, I just don't know about them.  Just keep telling people your going to do it.  You can change your mind later.

Just to summarize:

1.  Tell the two year school,  "I intend to get  a masters degree.  Your school has a good reputation.  If I get a degree here how many of my credits will transfer to a university?  Have any of your stundent done that, how many of their credits transferred and how long did it take them to complete their bachelors degree?"   You get the idea.

2.  Go to the four year school and tell them the same thins.

3.  Corner some of the Disney folks and ask them.  I know that may a bit difficult  but if you can pull it off the advice you get will be golden.

Good luck in earning you r Master's Degree. I know you can do it.  

RickJ

[AGA]

Yufster, an HND is essentially a cut-down (and generally for people who either only wanna study part time or who aren;t academic enough to do a degree). A Bachelors (aka a BA or BSc or BEng, whatever) is a degree, an HND isn't. Whether or not international employers would be interested in HNDs as qualifications, I dunno, but it's generally enough for most starting-at-the-bottom sort of jobs in this country. If you enjoy the HND enough, a lot of colleges will let you skip the first 2 years of a Bachelors should you choose to go on to do one.

[MrColossal]

and now to confuse you more and disagree with Rick

the majority of amazing award winning cartoonist that i have met or who i have had as a teacher dropped out of college second year...

tom hart [greatest teacher in the world] is an award winning cartoonist and he dropped out of SVA second year, the same school he taught at and i learned at! how's that for a kick in the pants!

As far as I remember Ben Catmull [used to work for pixar as a 3d animator] dropped out of college also and then took a bunch of little classes at a local college to teach himself 3d [this info may be an amalgamation of people i met]

because, with art, what it comes down too isn't how many degrees you have but can you do the work. can you animate? do you have a strong portfolio? do you understand colour? would you like fries with that?

if the answers to these questions fit in with what the employer wants then you're hired. one can't assume that because you have a BA in Animation that you can animate [i'll introduce you to a couple people i know who graduated and can't]

you do what you feel is the best when it comes to learning what you need for yourself and to make a living

[Meowster]

(Yorkshire Farmer Accent)

I do be thinkin' I be needing a degree to get into America. Is this correct? I don't think I'd be let it with only a HND. America accepts people into the country if they have certain skills in areas which the government feels the US would benefit from. Of course, they're not gonna sit down and watch the candidates draw, they're gonna want to see their qualifications. So to move to the US, I think I need a degree and not a HND. Is this right, or am I wrong?

Besides that, I would enjoy the two year Ballyfermot course and would then like to finish my degree in Dun Laoghaire. However, it seems odd that one of the best three animation colleges in the world does not offer degrees.

Hmmm. This smells of octupus to me...

[SSH]

AFAIK from colleagues who've gone to work for various companies in America: to get your H1B visa (which they're reducing the numbe rof now, too) you need:

a) A company who are offering you a job to sponsor the visa
b) A degree

[Meowster]

So is it.... hard to get in, then, yeah?

Like I apply for a working Visa after getting my degree, and I MIGHT get one?

[Layabout]

Why would you want to go to america? It's full of people like eric and sylpher. The UK games industry is still pretty big, and you wont have to drop everything pretty much and start fresh.

[shbaz]

Dropping everything and starting fresh is fun and exciting though.

My best advice is to talk to people going there, people who have graduated from there, and then the counselors and teachers. This way you can hear bad stuff from the students and ask questions about the bad stuff to the counselors and teachers. If you go to the schools and listen to all of the great things they have to say about their own university, you don't get the full picture. They leave out that their program is pretty much just as credible as the school down the road that costs 1/2 the price with better living conditions. This is purely a theoretical situation.

I'm in my first year of a bachelors degree in Electrical Engineering, with some emphasis in programming and dabbling in art. I arrived at the University I'm going to after visiting several other schools and talking to a hundred people. After all of the work in getting here, I feel like I made a good decision. Don't base a decision that affects your life on a couple of nice things you've heard. Base it on some good educated research.

[Meowster]

Ooo look, the green card lotto is on this year!

I don't like the UK games industry. Revolution Software is okay, and have a pretty respectable portfolio. However, by living in San Fran I'll constantly have a wide choice. Core Design, Double Fine, LucasArts, Rare, and this place called Bizzarre Creations.... etc.. At least I think they are.

The weather is also better.

Also San Francisco is an amazing, interesting and diverse place.

But my question.... how hard is it gonna be for me to get in? Perhaps I could get shipped over in a banana crate or something.

[PureGhostGR]

Perhaps I could get shipped over in a banana crate or something.

*laughs*

I am guessing the only real problem is finding a place to work in order to get the visa.

Why don't you try contacting them? Tell them about yourself, your wish to join them once you aquire your degree and see how it goes. Ask them also which places do they propose for you to study..

Also, what about going to america for your studies? that way you have better chances of actually staying there.

[Meowster]

I don't know. Wouldn't that be INCREDIBLY EXPENSIVE?

Also, as regards asking the company... what company?

Oh I have an idea....

[RickJ]

I agree with much of what Mr. Colossal has to say.  It's not enough to just have a stack of degrees, you'll have to become an exceptional artist and that will have to come from inside yourself and from a lot of practice.  

I also agree that you will most often be judged by what you can do.  But there is a catch here.  Let's suppose you are an exceptional 3D Animator working for Pixar, Disney, or whoever.   Well if you are really good at something they would (or at least your immediate management would) want to keep you doing whatever you were doing and promote/pay/etc you as little as possible to keep you doing it.   When it comes time to fill higher positions (i.e. team leader, manager, director, etc.), postions of authority and prestiege, they will, more often than not , turn to competent persons of lesser talent.   Your not not having an advanced degree will be used as an excuse to keep you where you are.   Although there are exceptions to this scenario, it none the less happens quite often.  

Having an advanced degree shows that you are able to be productive on an intellectual level.  It's not that you got good marks on this class or that class; rather it's that you took a whole lot of difficult classes and got good marks bewcause you were able to do the work.  In addition, going through the process is a transforming experience.  Professionally speaking, you will be a different person comming out than you were going in.  

The other advise I will give you about getting a good education, is that you should also take the time to learn the business of your profession.  Where, how, when is the money made... who are the customers and what do they want ... etc.  Most people make the mistake of not figuring this out until their later years .

Enough about school, now comming to the US...

SSH is right about the requirements for H1B visa.  I sponsored one of my employees a number of years ago.  The company has to show that no US citizens are available for the work.  In your prospective profession, I think, it's much easier because it requires artistic talent, which, as Mr. Colossal rightly points out, can't be measured in terms of how many degrees you have.  Normallly the company will run an add in a prominent local newspaper offering employment.  The trick is to narrowly tailor the requirements so that nobody applies or meets them, except for the person seeking the H1B.   Having a master degree then is just one more qualification you may have that would exclude oithers (like all those award winning artists) from applying.  

The other way is to come on an educational Visa.  To qualify for that you need to:

• Apply and be accepted at college or university
  
• Be able to show financial stability (i.e  enough money in the bank for one year's tuition, room, board, & other expenses).
  
• Be able to speak English.

If you were going to apply to graduate school (i.e master'sdegree)  most universities will hire you to teach some courses or to help[ a professor do research.  In this case they pay you a salary and free tuition.   Usually you have to be a student though for 6-12 months first.

=========

I think you are thinking the right things.  Just be persistent and work hard.  Ask a lot of questions and take the time to analyse the answers.  If you learn how to ask the right questions, many times the answers becoime self evident.

Good Luck!
RickJ


P.S. Here are a couple of links to the Carnegie Mellon University program I was speaking of in my earlier post.

Masters of Entertainment Technology

IEEE Article - Shaping an Entertaining Future at Carnegie Mellon

http://www.cmu.edu/magazine/02winter/cooler.html