****Degree?***Bachelors?***What?********

[Meowster]

Well I thought it'd be a great idea to take a day of school, travel to Dublin and go to the open day of some of the colleges I want to go to. They're animation colleges... two of them, and I'm torn. Now here's the thing...

Dun Laoghaire
Dun Laoghaire is in a nicer area of Dublin than Ballyfermot, and has an intensive 4-year course covering all aspects of animation including classical animation, photoshop/flash, 3D studio max, other stuff. In the end, you're awarded a Bachelors something or other.

Ballyfermot
Ballyfermot is in a not-so-nice area of town, but it's one of the best three animation colleges in the world. True story. And much to my delight, the course there is endorsed by Walt Disney. My plan would be to take the Classical Animation course, which includes a bit of 3D animating, and then take the 3D animation night classes two days a week.

The Ballyfermot course is internationally acclaimed, and they get loads of Disney guys over to pep talk us and show us neat stuff. It's much more intensive, so it's a 2 year course as apposed to Dun Laoghaire's 4 years. Which is absolutely delighting, because it means I'll be in America by 22. Whoopee! It also means I'll be in America by 22 with a 3D animation course under my belt as well as proffesional classical animation Diploma ----

Now imagine a screech of brakes halting as I freeze. My eyes flash for a moment, and I go backwards over what I just said, repeatingly it silently in my mind.

Cue dramatic pause.

Then...

What the hell? Now I'm confused. So I need you good, helpful, smart people to help me.

What's the difference between a National Higher Diploma, a Bachelors and a Degree? If I do the diploma, don't I have to go on to get a degree anyway?

And which course would you go for, in my position? I'm not gonna make any decisions yet, but it's very important for me and I wanna make sure that next year, I make the right choice. Although the 2 year one is shorter, I will still be taking night classes to make up for material that would have been recieved in the Dun Laoghaire class. And why is Dun Laoghaire so hard to spell?

[Darth Mandarb]

I'd say go for the 2 year plan.  I think it's far better to just cram everything you can into the shortest ammount of time, get in, get it done, get out, and get on with life.

That's just my opinion.

And Dun Laoghaire is hard to spell because it has an odd grouping of consonents and vowels.  I think ...

dm

[PureGhostGR]

HND is the basically the first 2 years of a Bachelor. (theoretically you are supposed to be given a HND after finishing 2nd year).

Also a bachelor can be awarded with and without "honours", which is given only to above average students. (I think if you fail courses or you don't get good enough grades you can't get it).

Go for the 2 year course. You will learn alot more, and you will have the opportunity to make another choice about where to go next.

Once the second year is over you could apply to a different uni and get a bachelor just by doing an extra year. (for a 3 year course)

[Meowster]

I don't know if I want to just cram everything into a short space of time... I mean, oh man, College is gonna kick ass! But so in San Francisco. But my point is, the Ballyfermot course is a lot more intensive, but also a lot more concise. Dun Laoghaire does clay animation and crap like that I believe, which is something that I wouldn't need. Interesting, but I wouldn't need it.

But I really need to know the difference between Degrees, Bachelors Degrees, Diplomas and National Higher Diplomas. Because I wouldn't want to inadvertantly take the wrong course, and then realize at the end of a bunch of years, I'd only been taking home cookery lessons or something.

I though that version of Maya smelled fishy...

EDIT: *just saw above post*

Sooo... basically, a Bachelors is the one to aim for? After finishing the two year intensive classical animation course (plus night classes in 3D animation) I would then transfer for third year in a different college and do my Bachelors? And if I was very good I'd get an honours in a Bachelor Degree?

Excellent! I think I'm unconfused!

[Punch]

So here I come to cunfuse you again

I'm not entirely sure what it's like elsewhere, but here in Australia if you do a diploma and then transfer to a degree then you only get partial credit. So doing a two year diploma will probably mean that you start at around 2nd year uni, not first. I have a mate that did three years at tafe and got a couple of diplomas, and when he transferred to uni he started with 2nd Semester first year classes.

Generally speaking, degrees (or Bachelors, they're both the same thing) are higher qualifications than Diplomas.  Honours are usually offered if you have a credit average in your course. They also often require another year's worth of classes.

- Punch

[Meowster]

Oh man.

But I don't think Ballyfermot would only offer intensive, proffesional and indeed world acclaimed... Diplomas? They must plan to send us off somewhere else for the degree itself. And they would do that if it meant partial credit.

Guidance Counseller....

[TheYak]

I don't know about anyone else, but I would definately go to the place named Ball Yer Ferret

[DragonRose]

In Canada, you can only get a degree from a University, and then a diploma from a College.  If you've got the diploma, it in only gives you a few equivalency credits at university, but you aren't guaranteed to go to university.  

You get a bachelors if you take a three year course of study, and a bachelors with honours if you take four years.  Neither one is more intensive than the others.

[RickJ]

Yufster,

You need to end up with a Bachelors or higher degree from a university.  If you fail to do this you will consistently take a back seat to a steady stream of less talented folks than yourself.   Everyone in the professional world knows that there is a noticable difference in attitude, approach, professionalism between folks with 2 year degree's and four year degrees.  

Having said that, I started out with a two degree and it served me well.  When I transferred to university I lost one semester, would have been more if hadn't taken a whole bunch of classes that were prerequisites for each other.  

If you were to get the 2 year degree and then transfer to a university as you suggest, you will find yourself far ahead of your classmates.  The down side is that it may take 5 years to get the degree instead of 4.  You can minimize the loss by asking ahead of time what will transfer and what won't.  For example, in my second year of the 2 year degree, I took extra calculus classes which help quite a lot when I transferred.

My advice to you is to go to each of these places, find a sympathetic professor or teacher in each place.  Make it clear to them your intentions and ask their advice.   I don't know how much luck you will have with counsilors (damm spelling ) at these two schools.  Likely you will get canned answers and what you nee is a customized program.

Consider seeking a masters degree.  I got one sort of by accident  but have never regretted it.   Since you mentioned Disney and the US, let me recommend you take a look at Carnegie Mellon University in Pittsburgh Pensylvania.  There is a professor thetre named Randy Pausch (not sure about how to spell his name) who did a sabatical at Disney and is now on a mission to bring together people from multiple disciplines to produce digital entertainment software, virtual worlds, etc...  I am sure there are other places to get a Masters degree in your area oif interest, I just don't know about them.  Just keep telling people your going to do it.  You can change your mind later.

Just to summarize:

1.  Tell the two year school,  "I intend to get  a masters degree.  Your school has a good reputation.  If I get a degree here how many of my credits will transfer to a university?  Have any of your stundent done that, how many of their credits transferred and how long did it take them to complete their bachelors degree?"   You get the idea.

2.  Go to the four year school and tell them the same thins.

3.  Corner some of the Disney folks and ask them.  I know that may a bit difficult  but if you can pull it off the advice you get will be golden.

Good luck in earning you r Master's Degree. I know you can do it.  

RickJ

[AGA]

Yufster, an HND is essentially a cut-down (and generally for people who either only wanna study part time or who aren;t academic enough to do a degree). A Bachelors (aka a BA or BSc or BEng, whatever) is a degree, an HND isn't. Whether or not international employers would be interested in HNDs as qualifications, I dunno, but it's generally enough for most starting-at-the-bottom sort of jobs in this country. If you enjoy the HND enough, a lot of colleges will let you skip the first 2 years of a Bachelors should you choose to go on to do one.

[MrColossal]

and now to confuse you more and disagree with Rick

the majority of amazing award winning cartoonist that i have met or who i have had as a teacher dropped out of college second year...

tom hart [greatest teacher in the world] is an award winning cartoonist and he dropped out of SVA second year, the same school he taught at and i learned at! how's that for a kick in the pants!

As far as I remember Ben Catmull [used to work for pixar as a 3d animator] dropped out of college also and then took a bunch of little classes at a local college to teach himself 3d [this info may be an amalgamation of people i met]

because, with art, what it comes down too isn't how many degrees you have but can you do the work. can you animate? do you have a strong portfolio? do you understand colour? would you like fries with that?

if the answers to these questions fit in with what the employer wants then you're hired. one can't assume that because you have a BA in Animation that you can animate [i'll introduce you to a couple people i know who graduated and can't]

you do what you feel is the best when it comes to learning what you need for yourself and to make a living

[Meowster]

(Yorkshire Farmer Accent)

I do be thinkin' I be needing a degree to get into America. Is this correct? I don't think I'd be let it with only a HND. America accepts people into the country if they have certain skills in areas which the government feels the US would benefit from. Of course, they're not gonna sit down and watch the candidates draw, they're gonna want to see their qualifications. So to move to the US, I think I need a degree and not a HND. Is this right, or am I wrong?

Besides that, I would enjoy the two year Ballyfermot course and would then like to finish my degree in Dun Laoghaire. However, it seems odd that one of the best three animation colleges in the world does not offer degrees.

Hmmm. This smells of octupus to me...

[SSH]

AFAIK from colleagues who've gone to work for various companies in America: to get your H1B visa (which they're reducing the numbe rof now, too) you need:

a) A company who are offering you a job to sponsor the visa
b) A degree

[Meowster]

So is it.... hard to get in, then, yeah?

Like I apply for a working Visa after getting my degree, and I MIGHT get one?

[Layabout]

Why would you want to go to america? It's full of people like eric and sylpher. The UK games industry is still pretty big, and you wont have to drop everything pretty much and start fresh.

[shbaz]

Dropping everything and starting fresh is fun and exciting though.

My best advice is to talk to people going there, people who have graduated from there, and then the counselors and teachers. This way you can hear bad stuff from the students and ask questions about the bad stuff to the counselors and teachers. If you go to the schools and listen to all of the great things they have to say about their own university, you don't get the full picture. They leave out that their program is pretty much just as credible as the school down the road that costs 1/2 the price with better living conditions. This is purely a theoretical situation.

I'm in my first year of a bachelors degree in Electrical Engineering, with some emphasis in programming and dabbling in art. I arrived at the University I'm going to after visiting several other schools and talking to a hundred people. After all of the work in getting here, I feel like I made a good decision. Don't base a decision that affects your life on a couple of nice things you've heard. Base it on some good educated research.

[Meowster]

Ooo look, the green card lotto is on this year!

I don't like the UK games industry. Revolution Software is okay, and have a pretty respectable portfolio. However, by living in San Fran I'll constantly have a wide choice. Core Design, Double Fine, LucasArts, Rare, and this place called Bizzarre Creations.... etc.. At least I think they are.

The weather is also better.

Also San Francisco is an amazing, interesting and diverse place.

But my question.... how hard is it gonna be for me to get in? Perhaps I could get shipped over in a banana crate or something.

[PureGhostGR]

Perhaps I could get shipped over in a banana crate or something.

*laughs*

I am guessing the only real problem is finding a place to work in order to get the visa.

Why don't you try contacting them? Tell them about yourself, your wish to join them once you aquire your degree and see how it goes. Ask them also which places do they propose for you to study..

Also, what about going to america for your studies? that way you have better chances of actually staying there.

[Meowster]

I don't know. Wouldn't that be INCREDIBLY EXPENSIVE?

Also, as regards asking the company... what company?

Oh I have an idea....

[RickJ]

I agree with much of what Mr. Colossal has to say.  It's not enough to just have a stack of degrees, you'll have to become an exceptional artist and that will have to come from inside yourself and from a lot of practice.  

I also agree that you will most often be judged by what you can do.  But there is a catch here.  Let's suppose you are an exceptional 3D Animator working for Pixar, Disney, or whoever.   Well if you are really good at something they would (or at least your immediate management would) want to keep you doing whatever you were doing and promote/pay/etc you as little as possible to keep you doing it.   When it comes time to fill higher positions (i.e. team leader, manager, director, etc.), postions of authority and prestiege, they will, more often than not , turn to competent persons of lesser talent.   Your not not having an advanced degree will be used as an excuse to keep you where you are.   Although there are exceptions to this scenario, it none the less happens quite often.  

Having an advanced degree shows that you are able to be productive on an intellectual level.  It's not that you got good marks on this class or that class; rather it's that you took a whole lot of difficult classes and got good marks bewcause you were able to do the work.  In addition, going through the process is a transforming experience.  Professionally speaking, you will be a different person comming out than you were going in.  

The other advise I will give you about getting a good education, is that you should also take the time to learn the business of your profession.  Where, how, when is the money made... who are the customers and what do they want ... etc.  Most people make the mistake of not figuring this out until their later years .

Enough about school, now comming to the US...

SSH is right about the requirements for H1B visa.  I sponsored one of my employees a number of years ago.  The company has to show that no US citizens are available for the work.  In your prospective profession, I think, it's much easier because it requires artistic talent, which, as Mr. Colossal rightly points out, can't be measured in terms of how many degrees you have.  Normallly the company will run an add in a prominent local newspaper offering employment.  The trick is to narrowly tailor the requirements so that nobody applies or meets them, except for the person seeking the H1B.   Having a master degree then is just one more qualification you may have that would exclude oithers (like all those award winning artists) from applying.  

The other way is to come on an educational Visa.  To qualify for that you need to:

• Apply and be accepted at college or university
  
• Be able to show financial stability (i.e  enough money in the bank for one year's tuition, room, board, & other expenses).
  
• Be able to speak English.

If you were going to apply to graduate school (i.e master'sdegree)  most universities will hire you to teach some courses or to help[ a professor do research.  In this case they pay you a salary and free tuition.   Usually you have to be a student though for 6-12 months first.

=========

I think you are thinking the right things.  Just be persistent and work hard.  Ask a lot of questions and take the time to analyse the answers.  If you learn how to ask the right questions, many times the answers becoime self evident.

Good Luck!
RickJ


P.S. Here are a couple of links to the Carnegie Mellon University program I was speaking of in my earlier post.

Masters of Entertainment Technology

IEEE Article - Shaping an Entertaining Future at Carnegie Mellon

http://www.cmu.edu/magazine/02winter/cooler.html

[Meowster]

Thanks

Another question,

When I have permission to work in say, Double Fine (idealistic example...) would I then be able to switch jobs to LucasArts, AFTER I had entered the country, or would I be stuck in that job for however many years was nessecary to become an american citizen?

[Matt Brown]

you should be able to switch jobs. They say that you need to be a citizen or whatever to hold down these jobs, but witha green card handy, you can stay in america over 30 years without becoming a citizen, like my mom did. I think it really depends on where you are from.

[Meowster]

Okay I also did a bit of research and it's looking like this so far:

I do a two year diploma in Ballyfermot, then transfer to Dun Loaghaire to do a one year bachelor thingymedoodle. I then get a H1B or something, visa to move to the states.

To get this, I have to secure a job first, so I would contact say, LucasArts or whatever, present my portfolio and ask them to sponser me to work in the US.

After this, I could switch jobs within my industry quite easily.

Do I have this right?

I also get a J1 visa in college!

[RickJ]

I do a two year diploma in Ballyfermot, then transfer to Dun Loaghaire to do a one year bachelor thingymedoodle.

So far so good

I then get a H1B or something, visa to move to the states.

To get this, I have to secure a job first, so I would contact say, LucasArts or whatever, present my portfolio and ask them to sponser me to work in the US.

This is essentially correct.  The main difficulty I can see is in securing such a job offer.  It would be much easier if you were able to do an intership or something with your future employer or establish a relationship in some other way prior to applying for a job.   Apply for a graduate school or two in the US to hedge your bet.  

After this, I could switch jobs within my industry quite easily.

After you have a green card you can change jobs as often as you like.  If you change jobs before your H1B application is processed your new employer will have to start the whole process over again.  I am not sure what happens after you have the H1B but before you have a green card.  

Do I have this right?

Pretty much.  The only additional thing I would suggest is tp check into some post graduate programs in the US just in case that job offer doesn't materialize.   Find a couple of graduate schools that have internship programs with Disney, Pixar, etc...  

Go for it...

[Matt Brown]

actually, if you want to work in the US games industry, it would be waaaay eaiser to just go to school here. Nintendo, EA, Lucusarts (I think) etc often recruit graduate students on campus, so it would be much easier to get your foot in the door.
Plus, lots of schools give generous aid to out of country students.

[shbaz]

You commented that it might be ridiculously expensive..

This is true.

There's a price to pay for prestige, and it's generally about $40k a year for an American citizen, going out of state.  It really depends on the region though.  As everyone has pointed out, it's not always where you go or that you went at all, it's whether you can draw or not.  That being said, I couldn't afford MIT (the most prestigious engineering school) or even the 10th most prestigious engineering school.  Instead, I went to the most prestigious I could afford in my state.  That was OK State University.

So far as I know, Oklahoma, Louisiana, Mississippi, and I THINK Kansas, have the lowest tuition rates in the US (this is averaging all of their schools, not just one from each).  A foreign student going to my school will pay about $13k a year for food, living, and tuition.  I know an English fellow, a Kenyan, and several other nationalities going here and they all say they were told they would need $15k-$16k but it didn't end up that way at all.  You might consider that.  I tried to check my SIS page to see if any courses in 3d were available (i'm pretty sure they are) but the system is down right now.  If you want me to look into it for you, I can check the two biggest schools in my state, OU and OSU, and get back to you.  If you go to a strictly "Art" school in the US I'm pretty sure it is much more expensive than going through an arts program in a state-run university.  I've checked out the art museum at OU and I must admit they have an awesome arts program, even though they're a rival school.

Even if you go to a school in one of the above mentioned states and it isn't that prestigious, it might still be better for you than going in your home country because you'd have the advantage of already being in the US.

One big disadvantage (for some) is that you can't drink here (legally) until you're 21.

[Meowster]

I know this is gonna sound a bit baby-ish, but one of the main reasons I wouldn't like to go to college in the US is because I don't think I'd be ready to. I mean, the prospect of packing up and leaving my family for possibly years without seeing them often, in just two years time, is pretty dire. My family couldn't really afford to come over and see me, and as a student I probably couldn't afford to go over and see them, except for rare occasions. I wouldn't know anybody and it would be wayyy too much pressure all of a sudden, straight after high school which is essentially molly-coddling.

I'm checking out some of the links y'all gave me though. Perhaps education in the US would be better. The only thing that wouldn't make sense then is that I can go to a university in Ireland that is one of the best three in the world, for free, whereas I could only afford to go to a mediocre one for a very high fee in America. I know it's not the education but the actual skill that matters, but it still doesn't make much sense when you look at it like that.

One of the things we do in college is work experience. I'd obviously ask whether I could go on my J1 visa to one of these places in America, preferably my idolized developer, Double Fine... .... and spend a few weeks working there. Hopefully this would give me some credential should I want to move to San Fran. Plus, I will be able to steal a salt shaker from Simon's Deli.

However, I'll check out these internships, because if I could get past the homesickness (Now I sound like a baby ) then it would probably be really fun. So what you're saying is I could get a place in an american college for pretty much free, if I'm very lucky, or something? Time to check some links out.

And thanks everybody, you're being really really helpful and I'm considering an awful lot more options than I was when I started this thread. Thanks a million I know it may seem odd I'm worrying about this with two years of school still ahead, but at the end of this year we have to pick our subjects for the final exams, so really I'd better start making decisions now, because Irish Education works on a points basis. Besides that, if I do decide to study in America, I'd better start planning now

So thanks

[Miez]

I know this is gonna sound a bit baby-ish, but one of the main reasons I wouldn't like to go to college in the US is because I don't think I'd be ready to. I mean, the prospect of packing up and leaving my family for possibly years without seeing them often, in just two years time, is pretty dire. My family couldn't really afford to come over and see me, and as a student I probably couldn't afford to go over and see them, except for rare occasions. I wouldn't know anybody and it would be wayyy too much pressure all of a sudden, straight after high school which is essentially molly-coddling.

Yuf, that's not baby-ish. You're just being realistic, sensible and sensitive. I think a lot of people would think long and hard before packing up and moving to a country where you know hardly anyone. I know I would.

[Pumaman]

One of the things we do in college is work experience. I'd obviously ask whether I could go on my J1 visa to one of these places in America, preferably my idolized developer, Double Fine

That's actually not a bad idea - most courses will allow (and probably encourage) you to take a year out at work, so that might be the best of both worlds - get free education in Ireland but with a year's work experience in the USA.

[Meowster]

Oh but Christopher/Christian/Christ, I'd miss you so much, my darling.

I think I may inquire more about the work experience actually. I'm getting work experience in Torc Interactive, a donegal-based devoper, in March coming. It's gonna be awesome. Actually, I report back to y'all on it. But a whole year for real working in Double Fine or LucasArts... *sighs dreamily*.

I guess my main problem at this point is choosing whether to go abroad to study. Hmmm.

[Kweepa]

Once you have a H1B, you can change jobs quite easily I think - you just need to convince your employer and your future employer to cooperate, which could be difficult.

I highly recommend getting some experience in Ireland or the UK before attempting to go to the states. To get a H1B, your employer will need to convince the immigration authorities that you have something that can't be provided by someone from the US. In your case that would probably have to be good experience working on games in the field.

As for the games company, I think it would be easier to get a job with Lucas initially, although less rewarding. Lucas these days tend to get people straight out of college and exploit them for a couple of years, then fire them when they get too expensive. So that might work in your favour, since you'd probably want to move on anyway.

I don't know anything about DF, so this is just speculation: they'll be looking for people that have good published games in their resume, so moving over from Lucas could work there.

Another possibility is to get a position at a smaller company in the UK, where you can rise to a higher level more quickly, if you demonstrate talent. Then the H1B will be easier to get. The problem there is that a lot of small UK developers have folded recently, so there's a lot of experienced people in the market. I guess that doesn't apply to you though since work is a couple of years away.

It's a shame both Lucas and DF are on the west coast - if it was the east coast, I suspect immigration would love your Irish passport

Anyway, to actually land a job, the important thing is to have a good portfolio. AGS games would certainly help there - if you want to be an artist then you'd obviously be better off with a 3d game engine of some sort, but for a designer role it might be enough next to a bunch of paper designs.

Good luck!
Steve

[edit] Something I forgot to mention, that's probably relevant. In my experience US games companies have a lot of foreign programmers but not very many foreign designers or programmers. I think it's partially because programmers are more adventurous than designers and artists (go figure! - that could come from it being easier for a programmer to change job) but also probably because good homegrown art and design talent is more readily available. Not that should put you off - if it's your mission in life to work for DF (and you're good and not just some psycho!) that's a huge plus.

[Meowster]

Just found this out from a secret and unnamed. excellent source:

- It's not incredibly hard to find employment in video games as an artist... IF you have experience on your resume. But it is hard to break in.

- Most employers such as LucasArts and Double Fine have Interns. They do crap like sort files and test games, maybe, and they're not paid. But in the end, somebody might come along and say, "Hey, you're cool!" And employee you as a junior artist. Supposedly.

- So long as you're a good artist, you'll get in sooner or later. Unless you're really really really bad, in which case there's always Midway.

- Stay in School, Be Cool

- Never pay too much money for drugs.

Now let's say I go for my degree... take out a loan one summer, travel to America on my J1 visa and do an internship somewhere like Double Fine.... since there's no pay, it would be legal.... and then go back to college after the summer... that would give me a toe through the door, right?

Or am I wrong?

Hmm.

[RickJ]

I'm checking out some of the links y'all gave me though. Perhaps education in the US would be better. The only thing that wouldn't make sense then is that I can go to a university in Ireland that is one of the best three in the world, for free, whereas I could only afford to go to a mediocre one for a very high fee in America.

Do all of your under graduate work in Ireland.  Chech out schools in the US to do your post graduate work.   Find one that has many internships and that will hire you to do research or teach for salary + tuition.

Staying home for as long as possible is a good plan.  You will be able to save money and stay away from all sorts of distractions that come from moving out into the real world (no disparagement intended here).

Planning 2 years in advance is also a good thing so don't apologize for it.  

I can tell you are working your way through this in a methodical and logical manner.  You will surely end up with the results you desire.  Just keep on ...

[Matt Brown]

I think several schools in America have sister schools in both England and Ireland. One of the colleges I was looking at, (Maimi of Ohio) has a branch in England, where one can study for a semester...for no added cost. I think this works both ways...so maybe you could take a semester off from your college, and see if you like america, while still progessing with your studies