LostTrainDude's paintings locker

[LostTrainDude]

EDIT: I followed Anian's tips about posting and I've edited this post, leaving just one image - the one that I chose to keep working with.



Hi there, guys 

It's like a week now that I'm bothering our poor ThreeOhFour (THANKS A MILLION!) asking for tips and sharing ideas and thoughts about drawing techniques. So (pushed by Ben) I've decided to open my own thread about this, to share with you guys all my mistakes and doubts, hoping to get some feedback as anybody else can easily hope to get here in this wonderful community

Enough said, here is my first ("finished") painting. As you could easily notice, I've been kinda inspired by ThreeOhFour's & Loominous' art

This is a 320x200 image (zoomed x2 in BBCode)


Since it's my first "real" "painting", it took hours to get to this point. I've used four layers:

• Sky, moon, clouds - I'm proud of how "cheesy" are my clouds, that seem "heavy" for my use of a darker shade of blue.
  
• Moonlight - I used a big soft brush and just gave a single stroke on my tablet.
  
• Ground, herb, objects' shadows - I'm a little disappointed about the board's shadow. I'm no painter at all, so I'm still totally unexpert about shadowing.
  
• Objects (actually some of them has a layer of its own) - I didn't mean to draw a phallic shape. I tried to add a chimney to fix that, but now what's done, is done. I used a specific layer for objects since I've often changed their position.
  

Lastly I've applied some contrast adjustement to the whole painting.



It feels strange, but I'd really like to visit the place I've painted.
Thanking you all in advance for the time that you will spend helping me in my journey, I'll wait for your feedback 

P.S.: I've noticed the little color drip on the top-right portion of the screen. It's easy to get rid of it, so I will soon

[Anian]

1. why zoom at such a strange %? If you want to zoom it 2x then just

Code: ags

[img width=640]this is a place of your image link[/img]

that way you upload only 1 image but can see it at different sizes
2. instead of providing 2 images, just upload the one you're currently on in original size and 2x zoom (like shown in 1.), because the way you posted it now just makes it less readable, I can't see both images at the same time (maybe put both of them in original size and then a 2x zoomed of the current image

arty things
3. maybe try rotating the sign so it's facing the camera more, then you'll get a cooler shadow, make things more interesting
4. bench is not really distinguishable from the house and since the bench is facing the moon, some light could be made on the left side of the bench as well, you solve two things that way. Roof of the house also gets a bit to merged in with the clouds.
5. the grass...grass should be more of a surface with hints of texture, you just made hundreds of strands and kind of looks messy, especially sticks out when compared to the detailing on the rest of the picture - grass gets more detail than other things, thus making it seem more important
6. house need sharper edges imo, it's closer to the camera and it doesn't seem to be in the foreground in the sense that the camera is right next to it, so it should have sharper edges and maybe smoother lines (I know Ben's style looks like hand made, but he has a bit of precision in his strokes that just makes it look like lines are very squiggly)
7. I don't know about the contrast of colors, especially the house, hues are very blurred together
8. while on contrast, I'd make the moon and the board surface closer to white, I know you're doing a night scene, but it's more about the relation within the palette you use than it is to actual color brightness
9. maybe some rearrangement, if you can enter the house, then maybe add a window on the back that shows somebody is there (also makes an interesting light source) and maybe turn it around so we can see the door (though that might be more to personal design choice)

[ThreeOhFour]

Quite a few issues I noticed here (stuff that I did all the time not so long ago) that I will comment on. Wish I had more time to paintover the pic, but this will have to do for now:



- Made the colour more saturated. Colour is beautiful and really gives your background a vibrant look. I painted at low saturation forever, I'm finally dragging myself out of that.
- Made the moon *bright*. If you only have a single lightsource, as you do here, you really want to push it, otherwise your background will look dull.
- Arranged the clouds in a sort of "valley" around the moon. I find this looks really beautiful when done a certain way. Light the clouds with the light source (moon) not wherever their edges are, it makes for a much more realistic looking sky. Clouds are one of the very few areas where I go from a hard brush to a soft brush, just because they're soft things.
- It's night time, add stars.
- Between the fence and sign I drew some more detailed grass. If you want good looking grass there's no other way than to paint it all by hand (I use a one pixel brush and just go crazy). Give it depth, shape, volume. I've gone for quite long, wild grass here, but you can do them as long or short as you please. This takes time, but is worth it.
- If you have something like the fence that doesn't sit very well off the background, try putting something dark behind it. I put a dark bush behind the fence to make it pop a bit more.
- I lit the sign more accurately from the moon.
- I like wonky buildings, too, but it's a good idea to focus on their volume first. Yours looked a little flat, even with the shadowing, and doing that makes it look a bit like a 2d cardboard prop. My building is awful, but as I said I was in a rush and it's a start.

Hope this helps! 

[LostTrainDude]

Thanks to both of you, guys. I'm working on the painting trying to figure how to implement your tips and critics.
Especially, Ben, I'm really analyzing the paintover you did and I'm trying to learn how to cope with the shades and shapes of the clouds that in your pic feel very realistic.

Also, learning about the use of Contrast and Saturation it REALLY improves my "global view" of what I'm trying to do.
After that I'll move to create something more "edgy" and less blurry for that building.

Thanks a lot guys, I'm having real fun doing this!

[Misj']

Ben and Anian have given some really good pointers already, but I thought I'd give my two cents as well.

at the moment the image doesn't really have a focal-point yet; the viewer isn't really drawn to any particular feature. If you look at this downscaled image you'll clearly notice what I mean (scaled-down versions can really help you see the overall impact of the scene):



So you'll want certain features pushed to the background while other features should be pulled to the foreground. In general the following is true (although there are exceptions of course):
Foreground: warm colors (eg red, yellow), high contrast, high saturation, bright areas, etc.
Background: cold colors (eg blue), low contrast, low saturation, dark areas, etc.

Similar rules apply to shapes and composition.

If you now look at Ben's downscaled version:



You'll notice that the moon (bright, high saturation) immediately catches your attention. I love night-scenes, but this is generally a problem: the moon sets the mood, but you don't want it to be the main focus-point. One of the things you could do is to put something interesting/important in front of it (so here you'd put the focus on something dark by using contrast). Also, adding an additional light-source (eg behind a window or a streetlight) will also reduce the focus on the moon.

Composition-wise Ben's piece has arrows. The angle of the roof and the angle of the clouds are similar and both direct the viewer towards the area in front of the house.

Personally I would have lowered the contrast of the grass because it now became the secondary focus-point that I think the house should be.

Of course the piece has a monotone color-palette, and there is nothing wrong with that. But you can create even more contrast using a duotone palette (although there are also a couple of risks of course)

Below I've added a scaled-down version of a night scene I drew for the background-blitz.



It's mostly a duotone image: high contrast blue and yellow/orange/brownish. Focus-points are in bright areas with warm colors while the background areas are monotone in blue (this also increases the contrast). This way the viewer is directed to the door or the skeleton. Light and shadow were - in this case - added specifically to set the mood, and not to represent reality (except of course that three light-sources were added: the lamp, the moon, the television).

Also, the lamp on the left and the curtain on the right are use to prevent the user's gaze from wandering off-screen. In the case of the lamp, it's angles were used to direct the viewer back into the image. For the curtains low contrast and darkness together with a boring shape (very few angles) helps directing the viewer back to the skeleton.

[LostTrainDude]

Thanks to you too Misj'!
You gave me a great advice by downscaling the images and analyzing them, searching for focal-points.

Also, I've treasured the "This way the viewer is directed to the door or the skeleton". I usually forgot the "videogamer" in me, so reading it (again) it's a good design exercise

I'm still working on that pic, by the way. I've indeed made progress since the very beginning, which really gratifies me. When I'll achieve a "milestone" I'll post it here and let you blast your advices on me

[Joshy]

Just thought I'd mention that all these pointers are really, really helpful and interesting, and I'm sure they've helped LostTrainDude immensely, because they've helped me, and this isn't even my background!  I'm taking these tips over to any future backgrounds I'm creating!

Thanks guys! 

[LostTrainDude]

Finally I have made something about this painting!
Here's what I managed to do:



I have to say: it took ages to find the "right" brush for clouds. They're still not perfect, but I'm happy about my achievements there
Following your tips:

• I made a different building, adding a door with a little spotlight to focus the viewer's attention there.
  
• I've fixed the bench a bit and moved it more on the right, yet on an "unwalkable area".
  
• I've painted the grass "blade by blade", than shading it with a darker color.
  
• Near the house's wall I tried to draw some sort of "spontaneous vegetation" but I was having little troubles and decided not to force it too much.
  
• I've lit up the moon with a big white brush and then used a mask to apply some contrast and hue modifications.
  
• Added a little bush at the back of the wooden fence and a little shadow to it
  
• Fixed the shading of the board's border.
  Thanks guys, you're helping me so much in practicing what I've never done before!
  I notice my achievements when I'm walking the streets and look up to the sky, watching cloud shapes and focusing on details like I never did before.

[Anian]

Your perspective seems to be way off, especially on the house and the board, also the door is too small compared to the window and the bench. Also you have a lot of what I think are called tangents, where ends of objects meet and basically you get unwanted shapes - for example the left side of the bench and the door or the right side and the grass.
Clouds look nice but I think the left side is just a bit to straight.

The left and right side of the dirt/walkable part seem to be good lines to determine where the vanishing point is, so after you establish that, then modify the rest of the scene. It should be somewhere below the Moon. You'll also have a good eye guide line composition wise.

I tried to fix some things (perspective and edges), also sharpen up that bench, it's in the foreground and should be the sharpest thing there. I'm sure somebody can do a better job here, especially with the lights, but just as a guideline:
into

[LostTrainDude]

Thanks Anian and sorry for the late answer!

I had the feeling that the proportions were a bit strange but, I decided to put it here this way anyway. Your editing of the picture is far better than the original and sure it helps me a lot.

Anyway I'd like to ask you: how "easy" you go with the vanishing point? I mean, do you use a "geometric approach" to it or draw "approximate" lines to get it? Well, I know that if you had used geometry, here, the result should be completely different, but I'd like to know your general point of view

Here is something I did a while ago and, as you can see, I tried - and failed - to adopt a "geometric approach". It took so long that it became frustrating. Of course, this was made without a tablet and, of course, since it was my first try, it's justifiable that it took time

Thanks for your help!

[Anian]

No, my edit is far from correct in perspective, I was just pointing out things and editing with much redrawing. You should use geometry to get things right.

The way I do it, when I try to draw it right...to be honest I usually go to SketchUp  but Take the main shapes of objects (cube for the bench and the house for example) you want to draw and place them approximately on the scene, decide where the floor will be and then decide the horizon line and the vanishing points (one is ok, two usually looks more dynamic, three are usually unnecessary and better not mess with it before you get the hang of less). Then draw a net (like you did on that background in the other topic), google the way to do it  right so you have regular fields. Then you know how high objects should be where they should stand and then go to details.

[Misj']

Anyway I'd like to ask you: how "easy" you go with the vanishing point? I mean, do you use a "geometric approach" to it or draw "approximate" lines to get it? Well, I know that if you had used geometry, here, the result should be completely different, but I'd like to know your general point of view

Personally I have three rules (apart from the fact that I would advice two books on this subject to know and understand the basics):
1. it has to look good
2. it has to feel right
3. it has to work well.

The main goal of the background is that it is pleasing. Unlike animation movies where people are focused on the characters, in games people will spend most of their time looking at the background. So the most important rule is, that it has to look good.

Sometimes, in order to make it look good, you have to cheat. There is nothing wrong with that (as long a you know you're breaking the rules)...so long as it doesn't come across as 'wrong'. But that tightly fits into the looking good part, because if it feels wrong it will look less good.

Finally, remember that this is a game. There will be a character walking around, and everything (at least the places where the character can walk) has to match the character. If you take perspective too loosely it simply won't work well.

If you look at Bill Tiller's work (monkey island 3, vampyre story) you see that there are a lot of places where he cheats (and he likes to create a fake fish-eye-lens look). But still it works well I think (others disagree on that by the way).

When I draw my initial sketches - on paper - concern mainly composition rather than perspective. When you have a strong composition you can get away with some other things, but a weak composition will ruin your entire image even if perspective etc are completely correct. Also... focusing too much on perspective will make your image more rigid and dull.

Misj'

ps. the two books that I would advice are:
- Vanishing Point: Perspective for comics from the ground up by Jason Cheeseman-Meyer. I'm not too fond of the drawing style, but it is a nice book for the basics and elaborates quite well on things that are relevant to games as well.
- Layout and Composition for Animation by Ed Ghertner. Also provides some basic information about perspective but from a composition point of view. Of the two this is clearly my favorite, as it addresses a lot of things that few other books do.

[Eric]

If you look at Bill Tiller's work (monkey island 3, vampyre story) you see that there are a lot of places where he cheats (and he likes to create a fake fish-eye-lens look). But still it works well I think (others disagree on that by the way).

Thanks for this info, Misj' (and for hosting, LostTrainDude). I'm trying to figure out how to do better backgrounds myself, and I'm going to order copies of these two books.

Speaking of Tiller, here's an essay by him on the backgrounds for MI:3.

[LostTrainDude]

Here I am again!

I've been quite busy lately so I didn't gave to painting the time it needed (and deserved). Anyway I began working on some sort of post-apocalyptic setting. I noticed with great satisfaction that I've actually learned something by all your advices and my practice (plus some inspirations took from the web). Anyway, here it is:



The hardest thing to do was the "pier". I took several time to discover that, actually, very few shades of color could work to get a good perspective effect. Once getting that, everything went smoother and faster.

For clouds, cityscape and sea it took overall time of about 30 mins.

I'm actually proud of what I did with the sea

• I've painted a dark shade of blue\purple like the one used for the darker side clouds
• Every now and then I've painted brighter shade of blue\purple with a big, soft brush. Left-right-left-right on a vertical line
• Painted an approximate shadow of each building very smoothly onto the sea, to simulate a reflection
• Took a thin brush and began stroking horizontally throughout all the sea, widening the strokes as I began approaching the southern edge of the screen.
• Bright shades over dark parts (such as building reflections), dark shades over bright ones

After everything was done I've applied a Hue\Saturation mask over the whole painting, blueing\purpleing everything

While painting this I've imagined the tallest tower as a place that needs to be reached, yet its distance represents the main hurdle to beat.
Of course I'll be glad of any feedback I get from you guys, especially since they have helped me a lot until now!

P.S.: I didn't say it before. I'm using a quite small Wacom CTE-440 at the moment. I'd like to "upgrade" with a Wacom Intuos5 but at the moment I'd like to get better with this one, first.

[Eric]

P.S.: I didn't say it before. I'm using a quite small Wacom CTE-440 at the moment. I'd like to "upgrade" with a Wacom Intuos5 but at the moment I'd like to get better with this one, first.

I too use one of the little Wacoms (mine's the CTE-430), but my dreaming goes a step further than yours. I play the lottery every so often with specific hopes of being able to afford a Cintiq.

Do you have any issues with the tablet itself? I did a few things early on that helped me get used to it, like putting an index card down to have some texture when using the stylus.

[LostTrainDude]

I too use one of the little Wacoms (mine's the CTE-430), but my dreaming goes a step further than yours. I play the lottery every so often with specific hopes of being able to afford a Cintiq.

Ah, yes! The Cintiq is a great piece of hardware indeed But is simply TOO MUCH for a newbie like me! I think I'll go for a "step-by-step" apporach
I didn't ever take an art lesson in my life (of course, I DID take Art History lessons at high school) and probably I'll never will. I've always gone through a semi-"empirical" (because, as in this case, I'm gathering tips from you all and from the web) way of learning such things and, indeed, it has its downsides, but at the moment it feels very fine

Do you have any issues with the tablet itself? I did a few things early on that helped me get used to it, like putting an index card down to have some texture when using the stylus.

Actually, the only real thing that bugs me is that it has a quite little active space to work on. To paint these paintings in 320x200 I had to zoom them at 285,31% and then calibrate the active space of the tablet considering the edges of the zoomed workspace (yet it does not consider exclusively the software I'm using, but, let's say, that specific area of the whole screen). Then MAYBE another little issue could be the actual effectiveness of its sensivity, that maybe could be more smooth and comfortable on newer tablets, but I don't really know. Never tried other tablets

I'm not sure if I understood what you said about the index card. Do you mean: drawing something on paper, than placing it on the tablet to trace it out digitally?

[Anian]

I'm not sure if I understood what you said about the index card. Do you mean: drawing something on paper, than placing it on the tablet to trace it out digitally?

Actually, in my experience, that doesn't work well for some reason, maybe it works on bigger tablets but on my Bamboo, just ends up a mess and it better to scan in or just sketch on paper then recreate it digitally.
What Eric probably means, or at least what I do - put a piece of paper (I use regular printer paper) on the surface, I even tape it slightly. Not only does it give you a texture that's easier to get used to because of the resistance it offers, but I usually press the pen hard onto the surface and when there's paper, it doesn't leave scratches which can later mess up your strokes.

[Eric]

What Eric probably means, or at least what I do - put a piece of paper (I use regular printer paper) on the surface, I even tape it slightly.

Yep, this is what I meant. I used drafting dots to hold mine down. I don't so much anymore, because I eventually got use to the smoothness of the Wacom.

[Misj']

It's clear that your skills are growing. And no one could deny the great difference between your current piece and the first one you showed.

Some things that - I think - could improve the piece are mostly composition-wise. I've highlighted the major lines in the image:

As you can clearly see, they are all parallel and perpendicular, and the object of interest is (almost) dead-center. As a result you have a perfectly usable but stiff scene.

Take a look at this painting by Rubens:

I've copied the armature-lines from the book Mastering Composition by Ian Roberts. As you can see, the structure/backbone of the image was very well thought out. Now I must admit that I rarely set up the structure of my images like this, but that is in many ways my loss. And I think my pieces would be better if I did (and then use this structure as a guideline, not the law of gravity)

When you look at your piece, try to incorporate some natural curves and angles. Curves (particularly the S-curve) create dynamics, angles create tension.

I would put the tower a bit off-center (loosely adhering to the rule of thirds). I've taken the following image from Wikipedia, where you can clearly see the dynamic of the image change merely by differently centering the image.

Remember: the rule of thirds is - again - merely a guidance. Don't follow it too strict.

[Anian]

Indeed,composition can make a whole lot of a difference in the original it's a bit static:


but now I just moved the middle part (I just flipped it and masked the edges), making the tower fall on a third:


Also I sharpened it a bit,not only does it help when it's zoomed, but also you put the original as .jpg which is great for photos but on such small pictures that get zoomed, the compression is noticeable, try saving files as .png, the file is a bit bigger but the picture in general is not that big so it's not a problem so much. Jpg uses much more compression by approximation of neighboring pixels while png uses lossless compression, and when you have little pixels to work with, that will also be pretty zoomed in, you want the image to be crisp and clear.