Background help?

[Daniel Thomas]

There has been some people asking for a tutorial on how im making backgrounds, while I have been planing doing one and even started one a year ago or so I still dont really have time to finnish it yet.

But what I want to ask is: Is there any interest for me setting up a topic where people can post thier backgrounds and let me have a go at it, I would try to explain what I did and most important _why_ I did it. People would ofcourse be free to discuss my changes. I would mostly concentrate on the compositional part and not try to alter the makers style. This would be one of my daily compositional-excercises and hopefully others can gain something out of it.
Note though that this isnt homework help where I try to make you a ready background but more of the helping along the way.


So, would this be anything interesting, or is it just ignorant/arogant to think that - since the c&c-forum is exacly the same? Let me know what you think .

[rock_chick]

While your backgrounds are really good I just don't think a whole thread for this needed considering C&C is more than enough for that, I think writing that tutorial would be a better idea. If you want, you could also be very active in C&C pertaining to backgrounds.

[zabnat]

I think this would be great, but...
As you said, I kind of fail to see the purpose for a separate thread since c&c-forum is exactly the same. I have seen this made before on some forums and the result was that the thread got gluttered up of images peoples wanted to be redone and the queue was several pages (meaning author posted a touched up image several pages after the original one). And when queue got overwhelming author was not interested anymore and first updates from the author slowed and then stopped and everyone got disappointed.

One purpose I would see is that very queue, so every day you could just pick the next one without going through the critics lounge searching for topics about backgrounds. Other good thing would be that this could encourage people to post their pictures.

I'm not saying you shouldn't do it, infact I would like to see this happen, but then again you could also help being active on c&c board. I just wanted to bring some points to think about if for some reason you have not observed the same things that I have

[Ubel]

or is it just ignorant/arogant to think that - since the c&c-forum is exacly the same?

Yeah, it is. Just be active in C&C if you want to help people, as mentioned. No point in starting a specific thread for something like this I think.

[Daniel Thomas]

I think all the tutorials already are out on the net, and doing a background isnt much exception then doing anything else since all the artistic components are involved(form, composition,line, color etc).

I wont go in to detail why I dont post much in c&c, but there are reasons _I_ dont.

This was ofcourse just an offer and I think you brought up what I was affraid people would think.
The potential problem with que's would be handled by only an amount of pictures would be allowed each turn, then when Im done with those the next "batch" would be allowed to be posted.

[rock_chick]

If you've got issues posting in C&C then you'll probably not be able to help many people here with their backgrounds unless you choose to do what you propose, I still think it's kinda pointless and because of C&C being used so much you are unlikely to get much attention but it's up to you, you've heard people's feedback and you know what you agree and disagree with about it, so make the choice when you feel you've got enough feedback.

[loominous]

I fear you'd end up in that 'homework' scenario quite soon, and a messy one at that, since handling parallell activities within a forum thread is often a disorderly business.

It might however work better if you instead mentored a few people via PMs, and perhaps made these PMs publically viewable in a thread, so that people could follow the progresses (would allow you to keep the thread organized n lean, as you'd be posting all the messages).


About the CL:

A big problem with compositional critique, which seems to be your main aim, is that large parts of the material submitted often end up being discarded, sometimes even everything due to a camera angle change etc, which is obviously really discouraging for the submitter, who might have spent days working on those discarded areas.

To address this, I made an attempt a while ago to encourage people to post their work early on in the progress, to allow for major compositional changes, where only roughly sketched parts might end up being cut. The problem there is that since it's not always possible to provide prompt feedback, people often end up being left hanging, waiting to proceed with the piece, which isn't ideal.

That problem should be solveable to an extent though, by having a greater number of people with some compositional insight around to help out. So if skilled people like yourself would lend a hand, it could probably elevate the critique of the CL further, more away from piece particular paint-overs, and towards more objective, theoretically based help, where people are guided towards actions, rather than standing by while someone else grabs the pen.


Btw, if you don't mind me asking, what are your reasons for not posting comments or artwork in the CL? I know I never post my own stuff, and others with me, so I'm just wondering what your reasons are, as they may help improve the place.


(Oh, and nice bb entry btw!)

[Andail]

Just go over to the critics lounge and post your stuff. It can't hurt.
The only reason one would not post in there is some sort of fear that your thread might get pushed down and lost in the crowd.
I post in there every once in a while and it's always been appreciated.

[rock_chick]

Just go over to the critics lounge and post your stuff. It can't hurt.
The only reason one would not post in there is some sort of fear that your thread might get pushed down and lost in the crowd.
I post in there every once in a while and it's always been appreciated.

Another reason could be a user once got involved in a nasty argument or incident there.

[Andail]

Just go over to the critics lounge and post your stuff. It can't hurt.
The only reason one would not post in there is some sort of fear that your thread might get pushed down and lost in the crowd.
I post in there every once in a while and it's always been appreciated.

Another reason could be a user once got involved in a nasty argument or incident there.

Lots of people have been involved in nasty arguments on most of the boards here, and they're still around, so just get back on the horse and giddyap!

[Daniel Thomas]

A reason I brought it up was I have seen it succesfully handled over at CGtalk(im no where close to that skill though).

What some people might missed, which I think I mentioned, was that it was a challange for me too - not to be an ass, but it wasnt only to help but also for me.

While I understand perfectly what you mean loominous, I think that most compositions can be improved - or at least challanged or questioned - Even if the viewpoint isnt the best(which ofcourse can be discussed), since you can resort in principals or tools that stood the test of time. But I also understand, and always think, that there are no rules(just tools) - and all art is personal. What I would try to tell then is things that the poster could have in mind next time.
I wasnt thinking someone posting which I then just change and post - there should be reasons why its changed, I must be able to back it up or otherwise its just random.

Your "vision" for the CL sure sounds good and all, but like you say people sometimes gets really discourages when you bring up alot of theory and pricipels - they realise how much there actually are to it - and very few people are ready to - like you say - totaly remake their work(I dont blame them).

To answer your question in why I dont post my work in the CL(Andails comment to): Yes, it can actually hurt your art IMO.
Looking back at posts I did when I started my art-interest(trackback in the forums) I wounder if I actually helped or just confused/destroyed, I was totaly unexperienced - You can even see my first Background I think.
Its mostly about trust, since you are free to say exacly what you want over the internet(except forum rules) its very easy to hurt someones art if they thrust you. And sometimes I wounder how much time has been spent on those comments?
And sometimes its those oneliners: "I think you should change this", which isnt really interesting, whats interesting is WHY someone think its should be changed, is there any theory behind it, does it really help, do I have my own experience of it?
Not have said its automaticly the case here since Im not that active I wouldnt know.
People I trust c&c my art is mainly my teachers, My AGS-project artist-fellows, and some people I meet in person(and people I know has great experience, like loominous). Its important that its people I can thrust. People just saying it looks good is either unhonest or dont have the knowledge or experience enough, no art is perfect(questionable?) and it can always be questioned. But not all people can handle honest people, and they just think theyre rude,mean or assholes - Im thinking right now: I bet someone will be offended for me just posting this, no?
This isnt directed at any specific person, its just the experience I have of some internet-forums.

@rock_chick
Im not sure what you mean with nasty, but I figure someone were honest and spoke his/her mind and _discussion_ was opened.. If not its probably a missunderstanding - I wouldnt be affraid to post because of a specific person/user.

And Im no writer, so this might all sound fuzzy and unclear(and bad english).

[Ryan Timothy B]

I would actually just love to see your .psd or .psp files with all the layers, with hopes that I could learn from that.  My backgrounds aren't 'horrible', they just don't have that Lucasarts/Sierra feel, like your backgrounds.  I'd like to see the layer with the sketch work, and whatever layers came after that.

I understand your color choices, mainly.  Like with the lighthouse challenge, the dull purple building against the bright orange/pink sky, helps give depth.  Also anything in front of something bright should be darker (just like the dark fence instead of just choosing a mid range brown).

[Daniel Thomas]

My psd is one layer, it was max 2 but I often merge them.
I think someone can do much better then me(loominous comes to mind) or digital painting tutorials.
The color choices were not really based on anything but experimented to its result, It was first no complemantary colors but only oranges and reds in it - but after experimenting I liked a little purple in the foreground shadowsides.
Thats whats so great with art, you dont have to follow any rules - it looks good when you think it looks good - realism is just a shell/tool for you to express yourself with(or so I think). Color theory, perspective,anatomy are just tools you can use if it suits you, or you dont use it if its not your cup of tea. But I would think that many artist base on these tools though, you know the tools and then make them your own.. Ill stop babbling since I probably could go on and on writing what I think of art and How I want it to be.
All my opinion and not trying to prove anything.

[MashPotato]

Your "vision" for the CL sure sounds good and all, but like you say people sometimes gets really discourages when you bring up alot of theory and pricipels - they realise how much there actually are to it - and very few people are ready to - like you say - totaly remake their work(I dont blame them).

I would be glad for more posts like these, I know I've been helped a lot by them in the CL (especially by Loominous)... I don't always change things drastically, but I do like to think I slowly incorporate what I learn the next time around

And sometimes its those oneliners: "I think you should change this", which isnt really interesting, whats interesting is WHY someone think its should be changed, is there any theory behind it, does it really help, do I have my own experience of it?

This is my fear and why I don't post crit as much as I used to (not that I consider myself a great artist/crit-giver in the first place)... I feel like I'm not really helping anyone because I can't back up what I'm saying with any actual art knowledge (in fact, I made a tutorial here a while back that probably lead a few astray ).  In addition to that, I'm always afraid that I'll hurt people's feelings and discourage them if I did a drastic paintover, so I tend to keep things as close as possible to the original--especially since I often don't know the "why", I just know something "doesn't look right". 

I'm babbling now .  I guess my incoherent point is that if having some more solid art theory in the CL would be a good thing--if you or anyone has the knowledge to understand the "why", it would be appreciated by people like me who don't

[Ryan Timothy B]

My psd is one layer, it was max 2 but I often merge them.

That's a shame.  I was hoping to see what it looked like under the dress. 

I really enjoy learning from other people's rough sketches.  Like how someone will roughly scribble around to make the character's formation; hands, arms, torso, etc.  Looks like a big mess, then they go over that layer with a layer that has the final outline.

My problem is I'm too precise and critical with my rough sketches.  I should just go crazy with the stylus and not worry so much.  Forget the line tool, Ryan! lol

So does anyone know off-hand about any good drawing tutorials?

[loominous]

I think my "vision" might have come across as much grander and impractical than my intent.

As you know, a good composition in the sketch stage is key to the turnout of a good piece. When you look at the critique in the CL however, this key issue seems pretty much completely overlooked. It's a bit like watching a ship crew worrying about mopping the deck when the hull is leaking profusely.

And this would make perfect sense if composition was some elusive or just extremely complex concept reserved for experienced artists. But as you said, it's mostly a set of simple ideas that you experiment with. The difference between a more experienced artist and a novice is that the former spends time considering and experimenting in this stage, while the latter (unknowingly) skips it.

I think the reason is inherent in these kind of forums, as the works submitted are in the 'almost finished' stage, which leads to mostly cosmetic improvements.

There's nothing wrong with cosmetic critique, but it can suggest that this is where the pieces are lacking, that they just need more polishing, when the real big problems are deeply rooted.

So my intention is more towards pulling the focus from the later detail stages, where people usually obsess, and instead place it more on the first simple stages that in many ways determine the outcome of the piece. A good composition won't guarantee a good outcome, but it's the start of one.

This wouldn't be aimed at people looking for help touching up that last background for their next game, but for those looking to improve their skill in general.

And like you said, it's not much about theoretical rules that need to be studied, but more about distributing a chunk of attention to the early stages, figuring out the things that you like, and what you want to make of the piece.

[MrColossal]

It almost seems like people have to be taught how to sketch. It's not that intuitive for everyone to just start sketching and working out forms and composition in that stage. The process of making a series of sketches before even coming to the final sketch is also something that I think may be hard to understand.

Sometimes you have to throw out your last sketch and not just erase a bit here and move this line down a little. The purpose of the sketch is to be useful, changeable and ultimately disposable.

If you teach/encourage the use of sketching before going forward with a BG you can hit some of the key composition problems.

People might also think that in order to show a sketch they need to have a scanner but you can sketch in mspaint with a mouse for all it matters. The word "sketch" is loaded to make you think about drawing by hand.

[Daniel Thomas]

@loominous: I do agree on the sketch is probably whats going to hold the peice together in the end and not what you did after the sketch.
I do also think that(which was my intention) you can improve a composition when you got the peices in front of you, aligning forms, grouping, repetition, leading the eye - Not saying it would have been the best choice of sketch - make the best of what you have.

But you are absolutely right about people posting in the later stages, where it is somewhat locked in the possibilities.
I dont know if you have any general suggestion how to make this happen - I have a hard time see people posting thier sketches(not only this forum, most users in forums I seen post in a later stage). And I think you have seen it to, and you are probably the only one here who encouraged it(which is a shame, since it would help alot).
A suggestion that has been up is a Workshop(which my tutorial was meant to be) where everyone makes a background with eachother - posting at every stage. But it would probably mean much time for the "teachers" bringing together. And most important people has to show interest, all our time is equally important and it would be waste if noone was interested. If you have any suggestions Im with you, not just to help but also to grow myself as an artist.

@MrColossal: I think you need to have a clear mind of what you want with the sketch, scribble isnt the same which some might think. As an artist, I think, you are searching for solutions to problems.. The moment you put down a line on the paper the problems comes and you need to take action to it(or so Im thinking). If you know what you're searching for sketching becomes a relief I think(interesting composition, which your tools and knowledge can help with). Although Im willing to agree that people can make good compositions without the knowledge and trust their feeling - But I think it will be harder to pinpoint the problems and search them out to then put in a remedy(fix), which ofcourse can lead to that another problem shows itself. Conclusion, A good sketch and you're halfway done

Im not trying to complicate things for anyone else - but for myself - and just letting the mind go, making you read it, sorry

It can ofcourse be more simple but still asgood or better then how I think - its just my way of thinking.

[rock_chick]

Some people are born with a natural talent for sketching, like some have for painting, etc. and others have a general lack of ability and I'm one of them. People like me would probably need to take courses just to learn how to sketch properly, only people have this issue knows what it's like. I would never go that far just to sketch because while I want to learn to draw images on a computer, I'm willing to make some compromises.

[loominous]

People might also think that in order to show a sketch they need to have a scanner but you can sketch in mspaint with a mouse for all it matters.

Just want to add cell phones as a handy scanner substitute, which usually come with some kind of camera these days. My scanner isn't even plugged in - I just snap shots of my paper scribbles with my crappy cell phone camera (if I happen to work from a paper sketch). It's just a sketch after all, I just need the gist of it.

But I agree that unfortunately 'sketch' has come to mean 'paper drawing', which to many probably sounds like it's an unavoidably tedious hardcore like approach.

-

Speaking of which, I think one general problem is that as soon as sketches and composition come up, things start to sound time consuming and difficult. 'Value sketches', 'color tests', 'thumbnails' - all that stuff suggests that if you want to try to work on these things, you'll be spending a day just with the preparations, effectively kicking spontaneity and lust out the window.

Minding the composition doesn't have to mean more than spending two secs briefly analysing where you want to go with the piece. For instance, you've scribbled down a castle that looks cool, and now you decide to make a background out of it. Instead of starting to paint the grass beneath it, you draw a few lines indicating a landscape, some scribbles indicating some kind of foreground to frame the castle, and a line or two indicating some distant mountains for depth. The right side of the castle looks empty, so you add a few hills there but determine that some foreground concealing that area might make it look more interesting, so you give that a go. That's it. It's not alchemy or a marathon run.

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zyndikate:

I do also think that(which was my intention) you can improve a composition when you got the peices in front of you, aligning forms, grouping, repetition, leading the eye - Not saying it would have been the best choice of sketch - make the best of what you have.

Oh, I completely agree, I just forgot to clarify that in my last post.

A suggestion that has been up is a Workshop(which my tutorial was meant to be) where everyone makes a background with eachother - posting at every stage. But it would probably mean much time for the "teachers" bringing together. And most important people has to show interest, all our time is equally important and it would be waste if noone was interested. If you have any suggestions Im with you, not just to help but also to grow myself as an artist.

I sort of tried to convert the background blitz into something similar a while back, stepping away from the competition aspect and more towards an activity where you focus on the creation aspect, where people would post their developmental pics and get feedback. Was probably not the right place to do it in retrospect.

I'm not sure a new sort of form needs to be introduced, as in, a special activity or format. When I encouraged people a while back to submit their stuff while in the early stages, I recall JBurger picked up on it, and we had a good thread or two, where things developed from a rougher sketch.

Could be as simple as a new convention where people sort of flagged their threads in some way or the other, indicating that they're after this kind of help. I dunno, perhaps add something like 'Forest background - WIP help please'. Some sort of tag would be preferable, as I rarely check out the content of all new CL threads myself.

There may very well be a new and better way of handling it though. After all, that minor success was very short lived, so I'm open for ideas.

Workshop like activities do have the benefit of a much more creative and comradery atmosphere, whereas a CL thread is more like a review board (which probably why some have problems with it).

Perhaps a new activity in the competition/activities board. It seems to me that workshops work best if there's some sort of topic, so perhaps something along the lines of an activity where you'd focus on different stages in the process. The first one might focus on the initial sketches, like thumbnails, where people would submit their sketches n discuss their approach etc. Then perhaps a value sketch one, where lighting setups and values would be discussed, and one about colour palettes etc. Those ought to also be a good read for non participants, and could be referred to when critique is given in the CL.

I think you need to have a clear mind of what you want with the sketch, scribble isnt the same which some might think.

I think he's referring to the early stages of a sketch, where I think scribbling is very important. Aside from adding looseness and speed to the sketch, it often triggers many invalueable happy accidents. If you're for instance doing a forest scene, and you start carefully drawing trees etc, you'll often end up with generic boring stuff. By contrast, if you scribble away happily, you often end up with some weird shapes that you start interpreting as some kind of foliage with some weird rock next to it in front of a stream or something; the kind of stuff that's very hard to come up with if you draw careful and intentionally.

Composition is after all about large shapes where the content of these is irrelevant. From a composition perspective, the less expected these shapes are the better, and scribbling is a really good way to achieve this.


Rock Chick:

Some people are born with a natural talent for sketching, like some have for painting, etc. and others have a general lack of ability and I'm one of them.

Then we're alike, since I was never good at either the pen handling part (held it way too firmly, almost cramp like, and my lines were short, messy and just ugly), or the actual drawing part for that matter. Got a C in art class during my whole school period.

The good thing is that drawing and painting is like math - it's about understanding rather than some god given talent. When you haven't studied math, those weird symbols mean nothing to you. And even as you start to master the basics, stuff like algebra still looks and sounds like something completely unattainable. If you weren't forced to learn it in school, you'd probably consider those things as something only for people with math talent.

The same thing is true with art, like mass, light, colour, composition etc. These are things to understand the way you learn math, not by some blessing from a higher power.

(Btw, when I see beginners draw from references, it's like looking at toddlers copying down algebra lines. Even if they manage to copy them correctly they have no idea what they're doing, which is why I rarely if ever recommend relying on references. It doesn't hurt, but your understanding will most likely remain unimproved.)

And just like with math, sure, some will learn faster than others, but that doesn't mean that you can't reach those levels if you give it a go, it might just take longer time. There are probably tons of annoying 12 year olds whose art makes mine look like crap, but who cares. It's not a contest.