AGS Awards 2015: SOON

[Dualnames]

I know i did withdrawn it, but what i'm saying is, that it was more of a community decision than us (Wormwood Studios) being forced in a corner.

[MiteWiseacreLives!]

I would also like to see a category for the short games from the contests (MAGS, OROW, etc), a sort of MAGS-Uber-Winner.

For MAGS there is usually MAGGIES, which is basically what you want: voting for the MAGS-Uber-Winner of the year *nudges Stupot*
For OROW there was a voting over all entries - I don't see the need to make an additional category.

OK, so I looked into Maggies (didn't know about this one) and it's been dormant for three years now!
So I'm proposing to incorporate it into AGSawards, and as well as to lump all the short-timeline-contest into one award for the year. Thoughts

[LimpingFish]

The total grows, of course, but were there really more commercial games in 2015 than in 2014?

True, for me to imply that there are more individual commercial games per year was erroneous. However, if we look at the data you provide, and with the exception of 2013, a person could be forgiven for inferring a building (if fluctuating) commercial dominance of the awards.

And with developers who had strong awards showings in the past now making the jump to commercial status, that dominance might become the norm as the playing field becomes more skewed.

[KodiakBehr]

I'm in full agreement with Dual.  My unsolicited take, for what it's worth, is that the debate usually revolves around the assumption that the commercial titles have access to resources not available to non-commercial games.

When Conspirocracy (2013) was nominated, it was considered a "commercial" game, because it was being sold commercially (seems reasonable).  But the game cost all of $500 for me to produce, and the overwhelming majority of revenue it raised went to charity.  It was a fundraiser for the Foundation Fighting Blindness.

Rogue State (2015) can also considered a commercial game, but it was produced with approximately the same budget as Conspirocracy, give or take a few bucks and neither Problem nor I were able to give up our day jobs working on it.  Practically speaking, the playing field was level and the only distinction, therefore, between our game and one that is non-commercial, is that we tried to make money.

At the end of the day, it'll be what it is, but I wanted to at least voice the opinion that if you stratify commercial games from non-commercial games, you're effectively making the statement that the second you charge money for a product, you're in an entirely different caliber.  This doesn't really reflect the reality that a lot of the free games can well be superior to what other people will put paywalls in front of.

[Myinah]

I kind of like the idea of a MAGS uber award as an AGS category. I think some short games are projects people spend a great deal of time on, and so coming up against short games where a dev had a limited time to create the project isn't necessarily unfair but with MAGS you rarely have time to get everything you want in the game. I think a category reflecting that would be cool.

[selmiak]

I kind of like that best MAGS game award idea. But actually some mags games get extra polish after the mags deadline and turn out even better. And then they just compete in the awards as normal AGS game releases...

about the ageold commercial vs hobby games discussion, I'm on the side of separation to honor the great free games we get even more. Either one award for best commercial game and have all the other award criterias only apply to freeware games or run all criteria awards for commercial and free games each. I don't mind if we vote on this again or not, but I don't want to reiterate all pros and cons again.

and I'm kind of confused why Technocrat & Wadjet Eye Games added technobabylon (demo) to the database on 31 Dec 2015 and not in spring, when it was released?

[Myinah]

True, I suppose some do polish them up. Maybe just Sox and I are in the minority of terrible devs who leave our games as they were on MAGS release unless we need to fix a game breaking bug. Lazy, lazy devs, we are.

In which case MAGS award for fun and no other reason if people really do work on them that much after the initial release.

[MiteWiseacreLives!]

True, I suppose some do polish them up. Maybe just Sox and I are in the minority of terrible devs who leave our games as they were on MAGS release unless we need to fix a game breaking bug. Lazy, lazy devs, we are.

In which case MAGS award for fun and no other reason if people really do work on them that much after the initial release.

This is a good point, Myinah, Selmiak, perhaps to qualify one has to have the original version in the database as '[MAGS]Game Name Here'  subsequent versions would have to be separate and drop the [MAGS] tag. From what I know this is sorta how many already do it. An honour system really.

[Babar]

I'm not sure about MAGS games as being part of the main AGS Awards, because there is already a MAGS award for the best MAGS game of the year.

I would, however, feel that commercial games eligible only for 1 main award (i.e. Best Commercial Game) would be an improvement, and I don't remember if I voiced my opinion, but it was the same last time around. Interesting how AGS opinion oscillates, though .

[cat]

Many MAGS games are not even in the database. Actually, MAGS has its own database. Maybe we should just do the MAGGIES this year and promote them more? I'll contact Stupot.

[Jack]

Rogue State (2015) can also considered a commercial game, but it was produced with approximately the same budget as Conspirocracy, give or take a few bucks and neither Problem nor I were able to give up our day jobs working on it.  Practically speaking, the playing field was level and the only distinction, therefore, between our game and one that is non-commercial, is that we tried to make money.

Would it be feasible not to distinguish between commercial and non-commercial, but instead having a single category for "Best Game by a Full-Time Developer", and leaving the rest to part-time devs? I would say that's where the real difference lies, as Kodiak's post demonstrates.

Should be a simple matter to make the list of the few AGS games that were made by full time devs.

I mean, so blackwell won pretty much everything last year. Look at the game's page on wadjet's site. Does it mention the AGS awards or even AGS anywhere? No. It's only adulation from mainstream sites that was deemed worthy.

[Ghost]

Would it be feasible not to distinguish between commercial and non-commercial, but instead having a single category for "Best Game by a Full-Time Developer", and leaving the rest to part-time devs? I would say that's where the real difference lies, as Kodiak's post demonstrates.

Even non-full-time developers can, and have, released games that were commercial. Not to the success and/or popularity of, say, your average WadjetEye game, but still they were sold. See Ben There Done That et all.
And Chance of the Dead was not only a MAGS game but also Cardware, only I forgot to write that down in the readme.

__
Not to break the thread or anything, but I feel the true issue is that the AGS community has simply more people who work on their games in their free time, and charge nothing. And to those (me included) a commercial game already has a huge "award"- it earns their developers money. And they get publicity. And thus overshade those who live the freeware dream. I'll be frank, I used to feel that way. It's a bit of a tough nut and I don't think there will ever be a solution to it though.

[Snarky]

Would it be feasible not to distinguish between commercial and non-commercial, but instead having a single category for "Best Game by a Full-Time Developer", and leaving the rest to part-time devs? I would say that's where the real difference lies, as Kodiak's post demonstrates.

Should be a simple matter to make the list of the few AGS games that were made by full time devs.

It's actually not that simple. Most of the (non-Blackwell) games published by Wadjet Eye did not have the lead as a full-time game developer, for example (JBurger and Vince Twelve weren't, and I don't think Technocrat, Grundislav or the Primordia leads were, either), and AFAIK almost none of the non-Wadjet commercial titles have technically been full-time â€" the leads have held other day jobs, though some have gone down to 80% positions or taken short leaves of absence. If someone was unemployed or on sick leave for part of the development period, does that automatically mean they were full-time, professional game devs? Plus it might vary from category to category, with e.g. part-time freelancers on graphics, at which point it gets very messy.

Besides, some AGSers who make freeware games are actually professionals in the game industry (e.g. Theo with Skygoblin, and a few others who've worked for various game companies but make AGS games in their spare time), and many are professionals in the categories they contribute to (e.g. music, art, programming).

Those are practical objections, but I have a more philosophical disagreement with the whole proposal.

I absolutely don't want to have this discussion again, but fundamentally I think excluding commercial/professional/full-time games makes a mockery of the categories. "Best Game Created with AGS"... except a bunch of other games that might be better, but were excluded because some people thought it was unfair having to compete with people who are so dedicated to AGS and adventure games that they've actually made it their living. Same with all the other categories: Talking about "Best Background Art" out of the year's AGS games is a lie if a bunch of great-looking games weren't allowed to compete. At best it becomes the Paralympics of AGS prizes.

Since quite early on, AGS has encompassed both free and commercial games. The balance has shifted a bit, simply because a few people, having built up years of experience with AGS through lots of free games, have gotten more ambitious and thought to make a career out of it. But these commercial titles are just as much AGS games as any others. If you exclude them from the awards, it simply isn't the Adventure Game Studio Awards any more. You could call it the Amateur GameS Awards or whatever, but the AGS Awards will no longer exist as far as I'm concerned.

Many MAGS games are not even in the database. Actually, MAGS has its own database. Maybe we should just do the MAGGIES this year and promote them more? I'll contact Stupot.

We could always incorporate the MAGGIES announcement into the AGS Awards ceremony (which I think I vaguely remember has been done in the past) even if it's run under separate rules.

[Stupot]

I'm on holiday at the moment but I'll rig up something for Maggies once December's winner is known

[KodiakBehr]

I mean, so blackwell won pretty much everything last year. Look at the game's page on wadjet's site. Does it mention the AGS awards or even AGS anywhere? No. It's only adulation from mainstream sites that was deemed worthy.

That's unfair.  Dave has invested fourteen years as an active and thoughtful member of the AGS community, so let's not penalize him for what he does or doesn't put in his shiny, well-stocked and well-deserved trophy case.

I absolutely don't want to have this discussion again

As a moderator, that's your call.  But assuming another vote is ultimately held, I suggest pinning the outcome and rationale to the forums and pointing to it if anyone wants to crack the issue open.

I think excluding commercial/professional/full-time games makes a mockery of the categories. "Best Game Created with AGS"... except a bunch of other games that might be better, but were excluded because some people thought it was unfair having to compete with people who are so dedicated to AGS and adventure games that they've actually made it their living. Same with all the other categories: Talking about "Best Background Art" out of the year's AGS games is a lie if a bunch of great-looking games weren't allowed to compete.

This absolutely reflects my view.  I don't mind losing every single year to Wadgeteye's titles because they ultimately set an incredibly high bar for me to pursue, and the awards, to me, are a showcase of the accomplishments of the engine, not the pursestrings and time invested by the winner.  I would, meanwhile, be a little disappointed if I was alone in losing every single year to Wadgeteye's titles because I wasn't permitted to compete any other category. 

[Snarky]

As a moderator, that's your call.

No, this is a personal opinion, not a moderator instruction. I am fed up with it, but that's not a valid reason to close down a discussion within the community.

By the way, if there are going to be any awards at all, someone's going to have to step up to organize them! Otherwise this discussion is moot...

[selmiak]

and I'm kind of confused why Technocrat & Wadjet Eye Games added technobabylon (demo) to the database on 31 Dec 2015 and not in spring, when it was released?

This really had me stumped for a while, and I think I found the simple solution to that question, they just don't want search engines to spit out the ags page too while selling the game on various other channels...



about that one award for commercial/fulltime devs only, I'm kind of torn, I think the commercial devs sure also like seeing their games compete in all categories as much as hobby devs like seeing their games not beeing crashed by fulltime devs in the same category. Even I as a non commercial dev would like to see how all the commercial/fulltime titles compete against each other in the different categories. Actually some part of me likes to see how free/parttime dev games compete against fulltime dev games, but I think the rest of what I write here is still fairer for everyone involved. And as I said before, I'd like to see some free games compete against each other in all categories and also win something to honor them even more and encourage the devs to challenge themselves more and give us even more fun free games.
In case there are split awards, I wouldn't mind if this makes the awards ceremony 30 minutes longer or so, that's up to the hosts if they want to announce the winners for e.g. best music on a commercial game and best music on a free game at almost the same time by the same host or have complete commercial awards first then free games awards (or the other way around...). Though the latter sucks and would make people leave too soon (/ join late?)
And also just one award for the commercial games would probably keep a lot of the commercial devs out of the ceremony and make them only show up when the one award is announced if at all, and what crappy awards ceremony it would be without some celebrities being there and spamming the chat and so... 

another point is, you should have had played all the games nominated to finally cast a vote in the awards, so the paywall puts some kind of votewall in there. So people will just vote for the games they bought and played (even though told otherwise...), so the bestsellers have a greater chance of winning. Probably. Maybe this game sold better just because it is better and deserves to win or some commercial underdog goes unnoticed as just noone bought it but actually it is better... just a thought.

[Jack]

If someone was unemployed or on sick leave for part of the development period, does that automatically mean they were full-time, professional game devs?

Being able to work on your game full-time makes you a full-time developer, but does not imply the skill of the developer. That's what the awards must determine.

But there is a hell of a difference between being able to work on your game full-time, and having to work on it after you've already done your day job. I totally recognise that the people who made the two games that dominated last year's awards are legends, and that in most cases it's their hard work and creativity that's earned them the resources to do what they want. Better than that, many of them come from this very community. I just don't think it's very interesting to see which of the two games from the same studio will win most of the awards that year, or how they will be divided between the two. And I don't think there's any way to really compare a full-time game to a part-time one.

[Myinah]

You are assuming someone out of work for whatever reason has full time hours to work on a game. Some people are parenting kids, others are looking for work which in itself can be basically a full time job. Then there are people like me who are disabled and can only work part time because they are sick. I may theoretically have all day to work on a project some days, but the reality is that due to my condition it doesnt work out that way. So you might label me a full time dev because I have the hours technically, but really I don't.

I have more time than a hobbyist but I'm not full time by any stretch. I think a lot of other indie devs are similar and keep themselves going through sporadic freelance work etc. Its not as cut and dry as you are making it out to be.

[Jack]

I'm not assuming that. I wasn't talking about technical or theoretical hours, but actual ones.

With your condition and and other responsibilities taking up your time, do you think that your games could be compared on even terms to someone who has 8 hours each day to work on theirs? Would you have made a different game if you knew you could work on it each day for 8 hours?

It's not as simple as black and white, but I don't think improvements are impossible. What I initially suggested was a bit extreme, but it's just a suggestion. Obviously the AGS world is changing, I don't think it's realistic to expect that the AGS awards can remain static while still being relevant.